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Just twelve more

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Just twelve more
« on: September 18, 2017, 02:33:16 PM »
Leadership was given to all Messengers in succession.  When God sealed the prophets all he wanted us to do was accept and love 12 more leaders and humanity would be at peace and see the justice by the navigators to it.  And accepting them also meant not mixing with their authority others.  May God heal through Quran the dark magic on the hearts that turn away from the true King and God of humanity who is the master of the authority blessed be him who in his hands is the authority who gives his authority to who he pleases and negates it from who he pleases.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Abu Muhammad

Re: Just twelve more
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2017, 04:00:09 PM »
Leadership was given to all Messengers in succession.

WRONG.

Between Isa (as) and Muhammad (saw), there was a break…

يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ قَدْ جَاءَكُمْ رَسُولُنَا يُبَيِّنُ لَكُمْ عَلَىٰ فَتْرَةٍ مِنَ الرُّسُلِ أَنْ تَقُولُوا مَا جَاءَنَا مِنْ بَشِيرٍ وَلَا نَذِيرٍ ۖ فَقَدْ جَاءَكُمْ بَشِيرٌ وَنَذِيرٌ ۗ وَاللَّهُ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ

(Sahih International)
O  People  of  the  Scripture,  there  has  come  to  you  Our  Messenger  to  make  clear  to  you [the  religion]  after  a  period  [of  suspension]  of  messengers,  lest  you  say,  "There  came not  to  us  any  bringer  of  good  tidings  or  a  warner."  But  there  has  come  to  you  a  bringer of  good  tidings  and  a  warner.  And Allah is  over  all  things  competent.

-Sura Al-Ma'idah, Ayah 19

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Re: Just twelve more
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2017, 04:04:52 PM »
But during that time there was a witness and guide on earth and leader and driver and captain and proof who was Elyas though he was hidden.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Abu Muhammad

Re: Just twelve more
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2017, 05:57:23 PM »
But during that time there was a witness and guide on earth and leader and driver and captain and proof who was Elyas though he was hidden.

If you said so, you have to accept that he wasn't a Messenger since it contradicts Sura Al-Ma'idah, Ayah 19.

If you agree that he wasn't a Messenger, my previous statement which said you were WRONG is still stand since you said:

Leadership was given to all Messengers in succession. 

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Re: Just twelve more
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2017, 08:11:21 PM »
Elyas was a Messenger and his role as Messenger ceased before Jesus. His role as leader and guide in journey to God also took place after Jesus until Mohammad see what Quran has said about leaders witnesses and guides.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Rationalist

Re: Just twelve more
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2017, 11:16:59 PM »
When God sealed the prophets all he wanted us to do was accept and love 12 more leaders and humanity would be at peace and see the justice by the navigators to it.  And accepting them also meant not mixing with their authority others.

The issue is after Imam Hussain(as) none of the 9 imams declared the Caliphate. In fact many other Hassani and Hussaini declared it. So why should i believe in 12 when the 9 did not tell the ummah they are the Calipahs?

Abu Muhammad

Re: Just twelve more
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2017, 12:32:42 AM »
Good. Keep on contradicting yourself.

Elyas was a Messenger and his role as Messenger ceased before Jesus.

Leadership was given to all Messengers in succession.

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Re: Just twelve more
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2017, 02:57:15 AM »
Keep showing your comprehension issues. I said leadership was given to Messengers in succession, never said Messengerhood was given in succession.  Indeed Messengerhood is limited to those who hear the message, location limits it, while the same is not true of Guiding leadership which encompasses all humans and embraces all humanity who will be called with a leader from themselves.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Abu Muhammad

Re: Just twelve more
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2017, 04:00:57 AM »
Keep showing your comprehension issues. I said leadership was given to Messengers in succession, never said Messengerhood was given in succession.  Indeed Messengerhood is limited to those who hear the message, location limits it, while the same is not true of Guiding leadership which encompasses all humans and embraces all humanity who will be called with a leader from themselves.


I'll paraphrase what you have said to make it easier to understand.

"Elyas (as) was no longer a Messenger after Isa (as) and yet the leadership "baton" needed to be passed from one Messenger to another in sequential manner."

Hence, by that logic of yours, that Messenger could never be Elyas (as) since he (as) was no longer a Messenger.

It's not hard to comprehend that.  ;)

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Re: Just twelve more
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2017, 05:59:38 AM »
Either you have comprehension issues or can't admit when you are wrong.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Abu Muhammad

Re: Just twelve more
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2017, 06:10:38 AM »
Either you have comprehension issues or can't admit when you are wrong.

Hahaha... I'm the one who is supposed to write that to you.

By the way, is there any narrations from Prophet (saw) or your imams stating that Elyas was the imam before the coming of our Prophet (saw)? Or you just found that out in your dream?

Hadrami

Re: Just twelve more
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2017, 12:41:33 PM »
By the way, is there any narrations from Prophet (saw) or your imams stating that Elyas was the imam before the coming of our Prophet (saw)? Or you just found that out in your dream?
must be after taking his regular mental pill 😁

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Re: Just twelve more
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2017, 07:59:56 PM »
Either you have comprehension issues or can't admit when you are wrong.

Hahaha... I'm the one who is supposed to write that to you.

By the way, is there any narrations from Prophet (saw) or your imams stating that Elyas was the imam before the coming of our Prophet (saw)? Or you just found that out in your dream?

 A
There are narrations that state every Prophet has with him twelve captains and there are narration that every Prophet has a family who are special and there is hadiths that the earth is never without a proof or leader or guide and there is hadiths that the guide is a witness who sees the people's actions. And Elyas was only guide that is reported to stay alive other then Isa and Isa is said to be a witness only while among them.  While there is hadiths about Simon succeeding what we see how disciples addressed are noble and high they are not fit to be chosen leaders by how they are recalled aside from the limit of 12 sucessors who ruled bani-Israel.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Abu Muhammad

Re: Just twelve more
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2017, 09:59:56 PM »
Either you have comprehension issues or can't admit when you are wrong.

Hahaha... I'm the one who is supposed to write that to you.

By the way, is there any narrations from Prophet (saw) or your imams stating that Elyas was the imam before the coming of our Prophet (saw)? Or you just found that out in your dream?

 A
There are narrations that state every Prophet has with him twelve captains and there are narration that every Prophet has a family who are special and there is hadiths that the earth is never without a proof or leader or guide and there is hadiths that the guide is a witness who sees the people's actions. And Elyas was only guide that is reported to stay alive other then Isa and Isa is said to be a witness only while among them.  While there is hadiths about Simon succeeding what we see how disciples addressed are noble and high they are not fit to be chosen leaders by how they are recalled aside from the limit of 12 sucessors who ruled bani-Israel.

I took your answer as NONE. Not a single narrations showing that Elyas (as) was the imam before the Prophet (saw) despite a number of narrations about him (as) in your books.

On top of that, nobody that I know of (neither your imams nor your scholars including the earlier ones) used Elyas (as) as a precedence to justify the existence as well as ghayba of your 12th imam. Instead, the comparison goes to Isa (as). If Elyas (as) were the imam before our Prophet (saw), he (as) would be the most perfect example since he (as) was the imam and the guide as well as hidden, exactly like your 12th imam.

That, in itself, really beg a big question mark on top of our head. Why was the comparison made to Isa (as) who was hidden but not as the guide and not to Elyas (as) who was the guide as well as hidden? That certainly doesn't make sense unless Elyas (as) was not the guide himself before Prophet (saw).

Another possibility was that your scholars forgot to fabricate narrations about him (as) being the hidden guide!

Hani

Re: Just twelve more
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2017, 05:38:21 AM »
Review the arguments here to know there wasn't ANY guide before Muhammad (saw)
http://forum.twelvershia.net/official-debates/did-the-prophet-(saw)-appoint-a-man-to-succeed-him/
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Link

Re: Just twelve more
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2017, 05:41:10 AM »
Review the arguments here to know there wasn't ANY guide before Muhammad (saw)
http://forum.twelvershia.net/official-debates/did-the-prophet-(saw)-appoint-a-man-to-succeed-him/

You are immersed in a sea of conjecture.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Abu Muhammad

Re: Just twelve more
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2017, 06:25:53 PM »
Review the arguments here to know there wasn't ANY guide before Muhammad (saw)
http://forum.twelvershia.net/official-debates/did-the-prophet-(saw)-appoint-a-man-to-succeed-him/

That guy has been missing for more than 3 years now!

Hani

Re: Just twelve more
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2017, 07:49:14 PM »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hadrami

Re: Just twelve more
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2017, 12:00:49 PM »
Review the arguments here to know there wasn't ANY guide before Muhammad (saw)
http://forum.twelvershia.net/official-debates/did-the-prophet-(saw)-appoint-a-man-to-succeed-him/

That guy has been missing for more than 3 years now!
3yrs is nothing compare to missing for 1000+yrs and counting 😆

 

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