Kamal Haydari: Shias of first three centuries did not believe in infallibility

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

Al-Salamu Alaykum brothers. I will reply to both of you, but you must understand it is hard speaking to more than one person. Insha Allah I will reply to each one of you in due time.

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

Well they may have even denied the infallibility of the Prophets. And it is also possible that they didn't understand the Verses in the Qur'an which some Shi'a say prove infallibility.

Sometimes the tafsir of the Imams is needed.

So please share with us the Tafseer of those verses which Shia use for infallibility from the reliable sayings of Imam.

I like this hadith on wilaya:

Brother, please pay attention to the request I made, since our discussion was revolving around infallibility and that many close Shia narrators around the Imams didn't believe in infallibility, nor did they believe that the verses of Quran proves infallibility of Imams, hence I asked you for Tafseer of Imam from reliable source which explains the verse of Quran which Shia use for infallibility, where in we find Shia Imam explains that verse to mean his infallibility.

So please quote me such a tafseer.

Al-Salamu Alaykum brother.

I am yet to find anything but I will continue my search.

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

The Hadith is saying, God revealed the Wilayah which is this verse:

{“Verily your guardian is Allah, His messenger, and those who believed – who stand in prayer and give the zakat…” (5:55)}

He made the Wilaya of the Possessors of the Command (Ulu ‘l-amr) obligatory through it BUT Then it says:

And they did not understand what it was so God asked him to clarify that this was regarding `Ali.

This means, a vague verse was revealed which needed explanation since `Ali's name was nowhere in sight. So this happens:

"When Allah gave that [order] to him, the chest of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله tightened, and he feared that they would apostatize from their religion and bely him"

This means, he knew the moment he would tell them that this verse was regarding political authority and that it was referring to `Ali, they'd be outraged.

This to me still solves nothing from the objection because:

A- Many events took place years before the above-mentioned verses where Wilayah was revealed. (Things were thus revealed after it by consensus so there's a contradiction when they say it was the last duty revealed)

B- The Wilayah was clarified in many events before the above-mentioned scenario. (Therefore, it should have been already clear and not tied to a random verse)

I mean let me give you a sample,

 يزيد بن قعنب قال: كنت جالساً مع العباس بن عبد المطلب رضي الله عنه وفريق من بني عبد العزى بإزاء بيت الله الحرام إذ أقبلت فاطمة بنت أسد ... قال يزيد بن قعنب: فرأيت البيت قد انشق عن ظهره ودخلت فاطمة فيه وغابت عن أبصارنا ... وكان صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم يلي أكثر تربيته، وكان يطهر علياً في وقت غسله، ويوجره اللبن عند شربه، ويحرك مهده عند نومه، ويناغيه في يقظته، ويحمله على صدره ورقبته، ويقول: هذا أخي وولي وناصري، وصفي، وذخري، وكهفي، ومهري، ووصيي، وزوج كريمتي، وأميني على وصيتي، وخليفتي

This is Yazid sitting with a group of Arabs before prophet-hood, he narrates to people how Bint Asad gave birth and how the Prophet (saw) used to hold him all the time and describe him as his Khalifah, his Wali-ul-Amr and his Wasi.

Again, this is BEFORE prophet-hood, the books are filled with such material.

And in early prophet-hood you have material like this,

رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم دعا بني عبد المطلب وهم يومئذٍ أربعون رجلاً، فيهم أعمامه: أبو طالب، وحمزة، والعباس، وأبو لهب، وكان قد أولَم لهم، وبعد أن أكلوا وشربوا،قال: يا بني عبد المطلب، إني قد جئتكم بخير الدنيا والآخرة، وقد أمرني الله أن أدعوكم إليه، فمن يجيبني إلىهذا الأمر ويؤازرني يكن أخي ووزيري ووصيي ووارثي وخليفتي من بعدي؟ فأحجم القوم جميعاً إلا علياً قال:أنا يا نبي الله، فأخذ النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم برقبته، وقال: هذا أخي ووزيري ووصيي ووارثي وخليفتي من بعدي، فاسمعوا له وأطيعوا

Casual Companions narrating that the Prophet (saw) invited his family and ordered them to obey `Ali as he described him as his Wasi, his Wazir and his Khalifah after him. These people didn't even believe in Muhammad (saw) let alone `Ali.

Without prolonging, I wish to ask: How clear are such public announcements? Doesn't seem like Wilayah was the final order, seems like a it was a habit for him to announce `Ali's Wilayah regularly.

It seems to me the other scenarios (if authentic, I haven't seen a reference to Shi'i hadiths so far) were to a select group of people and not as a public announcement to the Ummah.

This public announcement made it so that there would be no excuse for the Ummah in abandoning the wilaya of Imam Ali. The scenarios before clearly differ from this one.

[GreatChineseFall]

Some early Shia's didn't think the public announcement if there was any was made early:

سـليم، قـال: سـمعت سـلمان يقـول: قلـت: يـا رسـول االله، إن االله لـم يبعـث نبيـا قبلـك إلا وله وصي، فمن وصيك يا نبي االله؟ قال: يا سلمان، إنه ما أتاني من االله فيه شئ.
فمكث غير كثير، ثم قـال لـي: يـا سـلمان، إنـه قـد أتـاني مـن االله فـي الأمـر الـذي سـألتني عنـه. إنـي أشـهدك يـا سـلمان إن علـي بـن أبـي طالـب وصـيي وأخـي ووارثـي ووزيـري وخليفتي في أهلي وولي كل مؤمن من بعـدي، يبـرئ ذمتـي ويقـضي دينـي ويقاتـل علـى
سنتي.

Sulaym says: “I heard Salman saying: “I said: O Messenger of Allah, before you, Allah did not send any prophet without a wasi (trustee), so O Messenger of Allah, who is your wasi?” He replied: “O Salman, at the moment I have not had anything from Allah in this connection.”
He waited for a few days and said to me: “O Salman, information has come from Allah about what you asked me. O Salman, I declare you witness - Indeed, Ali ibn Abi Talib is my wasi, my brother, my inheritor, my vizier and is in my family, my caliph and after me, he is the guardian of all mumineen, who will finish my responsibilities, pay my dues, and fight on my tradition.

Salman didn't meet the Prophet saws until after the Hijra in Medina (and as far as I can remember, was neither a participant in the Battle of Badr or in the Battle of Uhud but I am not sure)

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

Well they may have even denied the infallibility of the Prophets. And it is also possible that they didn't understand the Verses in the Qur'an which some Shi'a say prove infallibility.

Sometimes the tafsir of the Imams is needed.

So please share with us the Tafseer of those verses which Shia use for infallibility from the reliable sayings of Imam.

I like this hadith on wilaya:

Brother, please pay attention to the request I made, since our discussion was revolving around infallibility and that many close Shia narrators around the Imams didn't believe in infallibility, nor did they believe that the verses of Quran proves infallibility of Imams, hence I asked you for Tafseer of Imam from reliable source which explains the verse of Quran which Shia use for infallibility, where in we find Shia Imam explains that verse to mean his infallibility.

So please quote me such a tafseer.

Al-Salamu Alaykum brother.

I am yet to find anything but I will continue my search.

Wa alaykumsalam .

Still waiting for the tafseer from Imam.

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

Well they may have even denied the infallibility of the Prophets. And it is also possible that they didn't understand the Verses in the Qur'an which some Shi'a say prove infallibility.

Sometimes the tafsir of the Imams is needed.

So please share with us the Tafseer of those verses which Shia use for infallibility from the reliable sayings of Imam.

I like this hadith on wilaya:

Brother, please pay attention to the request I made, since our discussion was revolving around infallibility and that many close Shia narrators around the Imams didn't believe in infallibility, nor did they believe that the verses of Quran proves infallibility of Imams, hence I asked you for Tafseer of Imam from reliable source which explains the verse of Quran which Shia use for infallibility, where in we find Shia Imam explains that verse to mean his infallibility.

So please quote me such a tafseer.

Al-Salamu Alaykum brother.

I am yet to find anything but I will continue my search.

Wa alaykumsalam .

Still waiting for the tafseer from Imam.

I couldn't find any tafsir from the Imams regarding infallibility in the Holy Qur'an. Salam.

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

Well they may have even denied the infallibility of the Prophets. And it is also possible that they didn't understand the Verses in the Qur'an which some Shi'a say prove infallibility.

Sometimes the tafsir of the Imams is needed.

So please share with us the Tafseer of those verses which Shia use for infallibility from the reliable sayings of Imam.

I like this hadith on wilaya:

Brother, please pay attention to the request I made, since our discussion was revolving around infallibility and that many close Shia narrators around the Imams didn't believe in infallibility, nor did they believe that the verses of Quran proves infallibility of Imams, hence I asked you for Tafseer of Imam from reliable source which explains the verse of Quran which Shia use for infallibility, where in we find Shia Imam explains that verse to mean his infallibility.

So please quote me such a tafseer.

Al-Salamu Alaykum brother.

I am yet to find anything but I will continue my search.

Wa alaykumsalam .

Still waiting for the tafseer from Imam.

I couldn't find any tafsir from the Imams regarding infallibility in the Holy Qur'an. Salam.

it means the Shia scholars who make the tafseer of certain verses of Quran to prove infallibility from their own are not doing the right thing.

عن هشام بن سالم عن أبى عبد الله عليه السلام قال: من فسر القرآن برأيه فاصاب لم يوجر، وان اخطأ كان اثمه عليه
From Hisham b. Saalim from Abi Abdullah(as) who said: “Whoever exegesis the Qur’an with his opinion, so (if ) hits(the mark) there would be no reward and if he made mistake then his sin is upon him.”

So even the case of infallibility of Imams is just like Raj'ah and Imamah of Ahlulbayt after Prophet(saws).  This can only be proven from Shia hadeeth literature.

[omar111]

The actual truth is this that early shias knew the Imams and were aware that they are not infallible. But later generations just added colors and stories to prove their holiness.
 
  The twelve are respected and pious people but how can they be infallible when Imam Jaffar can’t even recite the Quran properly? It is proved in my blog
http://rashid-exposes-fitnas.webnode.com/news/%D9%B0%D9%B0%D9%B0imam-recite-quran-wrongly/

[sid]

Grand Ayatollah Kamal al-Haydari says the Shia of the first three centuries did NOT believe in the concept of INFALLIBILITY of the Imams. He provides evidence from Shia books.

All I can say is that this thread is filled with nonsense and lies. As for Sayyed Kamal Al-Haydari, many people have refuted his statements so I am sure this is just another one of those statements.

In anyway, we have sahih hadiths proving isma.

The renowned Shia scholar of Hadith al-Shaheed al-Thani says in his book “Haqaeq al-Iman” pages 150-152:

“What is apparent from the condition of their Shia who lived in their time and narrated from them the Ahadeeth may peace be upon them, that MANY OF THEM did not believe in their infallibility because it was hidden from them but they used to believe that the Imams were pious obedient scholars, anyone who follows their stories and narrations knows this”

Shia Allama Majlisi quotes Shaheed al thani  as saying:

جمعى از راويان كه در اعصار ايمه بوده‏اند از شيعيان اعتقاد بعصمت ايشان نداشته‏اند بلكه ايشان را از علماى نيكوكار ميدانسته‏اند چنانچه از رجال كشى ظاهر ميشود و مع ذلك ايمه (ع) حكم بايمان بلكه بعدالت ايشان ميكرده‏اند
Most of the Shia narrators around the Imams didn’t believe in their infallibility but considered them pious scholars only, as is clear from Rijal Kashi, and still the Imams would declare them faithful and even trustworthy. [Haqqul Yaqin, p. 544]

Zlatan I thought you were interested in posts related to the topic.

What Shahid Al-Thani (rah) says would make sense as he says it was hidden to them.

Shia narrators around the Imams didn't know about the attributes of Imamah, the qualities of Imams, supposedly people superior to Prophets. They didn't know the basics of Imamah. Quite Ironic.

So you in a way agree the topic and you should have no issues with the topic of the thread, and to claim out of ignorance that:

All I can say is that this thread is filled with nonsense and lies.

Yes they believed in Imamah, but the details of Imamah were hidden from them.  If it was hidden to them they are excused.

As for my statement, it wasn't directed at what Haydari claimed, it was directed at some of the claims attributed to the scholars, namely "rifts".

ok, So didn't they understand from Quran that Imams are infallible. I mean to them there was no evidence in Quran which proved infallibility.

And the later Shias who try to prove infallibility from Quran, are just fooling the people.

Well they may have even denied the infallibility of the Prophets. And it is also possible that they didn't understand the Verses in the Qur'an which some Shi'a say prove infallibility.

Sometimes the tafsir of the Imams is needed.

Salam fellow brother