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Kamal Haydari: Shias of first three centuries did not believe in infallibility

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MuslimK

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Grand Ayatollah Kamal al-Haydari says the Shia of the first three centuries did NOT believe in the concept of INFALLIBILITY of the Imams. He provides evidence from Shia books.

در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

zaid_ibn_ali

Can anyone translate into english?

MuslimAnswers

^

It seems he is dealing with a matter that albeit interesting could be put to the side in the study of Shia theology, but there is one issue which is: What is the following of this 'Ayatullah' and is he considered influential among the Shia masses?

I ask this because I am sure we all know among our Sunni scholarship today of 'Muftis' and 'Shaykhs' who say their share of unorthodox things in their privately-run channels/stations, even to the point that they could be dismissed as having knowledge yet having a few "loose screws" in their head and thus not paid much attention to.

omar111

There is a deep rift in modern usooli Imamis.The rift is between the marjas of Qum against marjas of Najf.
The rift is also rising between the marjas who favor Sufism called irfan in shiiaism and a stricter group.
Although shia try to hide this rift but many marjas like Ayatollah" Kamal Al-Haydari are now openly vocal against others. Here he is claiming that Ayatollahs donnt know Quran http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjaJMZtZnA8
And here he is, proving that there is no evidence for the birth of twelve. It is no surprise that shias are doing matam against kamal hyderi lol


Farid

Please tell us more about this rift.

omar111

The greatest rift is between the supporter and anti wilayet e faqih marjas.
 Wilayet e faqih is a concept invented by usoolis to govern in the absence of 12th.There is no Shia hadith that supports such a wilayet in ghayabah.But to oppose this is dangerous. A personality that is well known in shiat because he was the brother of sistani, was killed by Iran because he was against wilayet e faqih.
http://www.yahosein.net/vb/showthread.php?t=   
According to the students of Mahmud Sistani. Khamene'i had him poisoned

 The rift started early with the arrest of ayatollah montazeri, the successor of Khomeini and o prominent scholar. It is a well kept secret in Qom that he was arrested because he wrote that Fatima had no right on property of fadak.
https://youtu.be/9aj_ZK7YxnE


 Ayatollah Shirazi who was a strong opponent of wilayet e faqih was dealt more severely. He was assassinated and secret service people stole his corpse!
Ayatollah najfi dhakoo is severely criticized by other marjas, for his stand against certain bidet in azadari and shadat e salsa.
Most marjas have given fatwa against Ayatullah fadhullah, because he gave a fatwa against abusing the sahaba.
 
 And kamal hyderi criticized every marja in show Mutarahat fil-'Aqeedah.In it he claims that Sistani has no knowledge and only political leverage. Although shias have removed the video, but the foolishly placed a refutation, which proves the rift between the marjas.]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZj215wwm7U

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Grand Ayatollah Kamal al-Haydari says the Shia of the first three centuries did NOT believe in the concept of INFALLIBILITY of the Imams. He provides evidence from Shia books.



All I can say is that this thread is filled with nonsense and lies. As for Sayyed Kamal Al-Haydari, many people have refuted his statements so I am sure this is just another one of those statements.

In anyway, we have sahih hadiths proving isma.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Mythbuster1

Grand Ayatollah Kamal al-Haydari says the Shia of the first three centuries did NOT believe in the concept of INFALLIBILITY of the Imams. He provides evidence from Shia books.



All I can say is that this thread is filled with nonsense and lies. As for Sayyed Kamal Al-Haydari, many people have refuted his statements so I am sure this is just another one of those statements.

In anyway, we have sahih hadiths proving isma.


YOU have sahih hadiths????😂😂😂😂👍👍

Oh look up in the sky tyre heads are flying😜

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Grand Ayatollah Kamal al-Haydari says the Shia of the first three centuries did NOT believe in the concept of INFALLIBILITY of the Imams. He provides evidence from Shia books.



All I can say is that this thread is filled with nonsense and lies. As for Sayyed Kamal Al-Haydari, many people have refuted his statements so I am sure this is just another one of those statements.

In anyway, we have sahih hadiths proving isma.


YOU have sahih hadiths????😂😂😂😂👍👍

Oh look up in the sky tyre heads are flying😜

Don't worry there's no Abu Hurayra in the chain.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Noor-us-Sunnah

Grand Ayatollah Kamal al-Haydari says the Shia of the first three centuries did NOT believe in the concept of INFALLIBILITY of the Imams. He provides evidence from Shia books.



All I can say is that this thread is filled with nonsense and lies. As for Sayyed Kamal Al-Haydari, many people have refuted his statements so I am sure this is just another one of those statements.

In anyway, we have sahih hadiths proving isma.

The renowned Shia scholar of Hadith al-Shaheed al-Thani says in his book “Haqaeq al-Iman” pages 150-152:

“What is apparent from the condition of their Shia who lived in their time and narrated from them the Ahadeeth may peace be upon them, that MANY OF THEM did not believe in their infallibility because it was hidden from them but they used to believe that the Imams were pious obedient scholars, anyone who follows their stories and narrations knows this”

Shia Allama Majlisi quotes Shaheed al thani  as saying:

جمعى از راويان كه در اعصار ايمه بوده‏اند از شيعيان اعتقاد بعصمت ايشان نداشته‏اند بلكه ايشان را از علماى نيكوكار ميدانسته‏اند چنانچه از رجال كشى ظاهر ميشود و مع ذلك ايمه (ع) حكم بايمان بلكه بعدالت ايشان ميكرده‏اند
Most of the Shia narrators around the Imams didn’t believe in their infallibility but considered them pious scholars only, as is clear from Rijal Kashi, and still the Imams would declare them faithful and even trustworthy. [Haqqul Yaqin, p. 544]

Mythbuster1

Grand Ayatollah Kamal al-Haydari says the Shia of the first three centuries did NOT believe in the concept of INFALLIBILITY of the Imams. He provides evidence from Shia books.



All I can say is that this thread is filled with nonsense and lies. As for Sayyed Kamal Al-Haydari, many people have refuted his statements so I am sure this is just another one of those statements.

In anyway, we have sahih hadiths proving isma.


YOU have sahih hadiths????😂😂😂😂👍👍

Oh look up in the sky tyre heads are flying😜

Don't worry there's no Abu Hurayra in the chain.

Oh yeah stupid me I forgot.......you have have DONKEYS instead as narrators 😂😂😂😂👍

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Grand Ayatollah Kamal al-Haydari says the Shia of the first three centuries did NOT believe in the concept of INFALLIBILITY of the Imams. He provides evidence from Shia books.



All I can say is that this thread is filled with nonsense and lies. As for Sayyed Kamal Al-Haydari, many people have refuted his statements so I am sure this is just another one of those statements.

In anyway, we have sahih hadiths proving isma.


YOU have sahih hadiths????😂😂😂😂👍👍

Oh look up in the sky tyre heads are flying😜

Don't worry there's no Abu Hurayra in the chain.

Oh yeah stupid me I forgot.......you have have DONKEYS instead as narrators 😂😂😂😂👍

I was gonna say something but I might get banned hahaha

 ;)
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Mythbuster1

Grand Ayatollah Kamal al-Haydari says the Shia of the first three centuries did NOT believe in the concept of INFALLIBILITY of the Imams. He provides evidence from Shia books.



All I can say is that this thread is filled with nonsense and lies. As for Sayyed Kamal Al-Haydari, many people have refuted his statements so I am sure this is just another one of those statements.

In anyway, we have sahih hadiths proving isma.


YOU have sahih hadiths????😂😂😂😂👍👍

Oh look up in the sky tyre heads are flying😜

Don't worry there's no Abu Hurayra in the chain.

Oh yeah stupid me I forgot.......you have have DONKEYS instead as narrators 😂😂😂😂👍

I was gonna say something but I might get banned hahaha

 ;)

This ain't no hypocrite shia website like sc where the monkeys love to ban.

We ain't no blind followers of ibn Saba to have donkeys NARRATE hadiths for us.


zaid_ibn_ali

Lol@donkeys in chain

Bashar's son, you just got owned!

Noor-us-Sunnah

Grand Ayatollah Kamal al-Haydari says the Shia of the first three centuries did NOT believe in the concept of INFALLIBILITY of the Imams. He provides evidence from Shia books.



All I can say is that this thread is filled with nonsense and lies. As for Sayyed Kamal Al-Haydari, many people have refuted his statements so I am sure this is just another one of those statements.

In anyway, we have sahih hadiths proving isma.

The renowned Shia scholar of Hadith al-Shaheed al-Thani says in his book “Haqaeq al-Iman” pages 150-152:

“What is apparent from the condition of their Shia who lived in their time and narrated from them the Ahadeeth may peace be upon them, that MANY OF THEM did not believe in their infallibility because it was hidden from them but they used to believe that the Imams were pious obedient scholars, anyone who follows their stories and narrations knows this”

Shia Allama Majlisi quotes Shaheed al thani  as saying:

جمعى از راويان كه در اعصار ايمه بوده‏اند از شيعيان اعتقاد بعصمت ايشان نداشته‏اند بلكه ايشان را از علماى نيكوكار ميدانسته‏اند چنانچه از رجال كشى ظاهر ميشود و مع ذلك ايمه (ع) حكم بايمان بلكه بعدالت ايشان ميكرده‏اند
Most of the Shia narrators around the Imams didn’t believe in their infallibility but considered them pious scholars only, as is clear from Rijal Kashi, and still the Imams would declare them faithful and even trustworthy. [Haqqul Yaqin, p. 544]

Zlatan I thought you were interested in posts related to the topic.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Grand Ayatollah Kamal al-Haydari says the Shia of the first three centuries did NOT believe in the concept of INFALLIBILITY of the Imams. He provides evidence from Shia books.



All I can say is that this thread is filled with nonsense and lies. As for Sayyed Kamal Al-Haydari, many people have refuted his statements so I am sure this is just another one of those statements.

In anyway, we have sahih hadiths proving isma.

The renowned Shia scholar of Hadith al-Shaheed al-Thani says in his book “Haqaeq al-Iman” pages 150-152:

“What is apparent from the condition of their Shia who lived in their time and narrated from them the Ahadeeth may peace be upon them, that MANY OF THEM did not believe in their infallibility because it was hidden from them but they used to believe that the Imams were pious obedient scholars, anyone who follows their stories and narrations knows this”

Shia Allama Majlisi quotes Shaheed al thani  as saying:

جمعى از راويان كه در اعصار ايمه بوده‏اند از شيعيان اعتقاد بعصمت ايشان نداشته‏اند بلكه ايشان را از علماى نيكوكار ميدانسته‏اند چنانچه از رجال كشى ظاهر ميشود و مع ذلك ايمه (ع) حكم بايمان بلكه بعدالت ايشان ميكرده‏اند
Most of the Shia narrators around the Imams didn’t believe in their infallibility but considered them pious scholars only, as is clear from Rijal Kashi, and still the Imams would declare them faithful and even trustworthy. [Haqqul Yaqin, p. 544]

Zlatan I thought you were interested in posts related to the topic.

What Shahid Al-Thani (rah) says would make sense as he says it was hidden to them.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Noor-us-Sunnah

Grand Ayatollah Kamal al-Haydari says the Shia of the first three centuries did NOT believe in the concept of INFALLIBILITY of the Imams. He provides evidence from Shia books.



All I can say is that this thread is filled with nonsense and lies. As for Sayyed Kamal Al-Haydari, many people have refuted his statements so I am sure this is just another one of those statements.

In anyway, we have sahih hadiths proving isma.

The renowned Shia scholar of Hadith al-Shaheed al-Thani says in his book “Haqaeq al-Iman” pages 150-152:

“What is apparent from the condition of their Shia who lived in their time and narrated from them the Ahadeeth may peace be upon them, that MANY OF THEM did not believe in their infallibility because it was hidden from them but they used to believe that the Imams were pious obedient scholars, anyone who follows their stories and narrations knows this”

Shia Allama Majlisi quotes Shaheed al thani  as saying:

جمعى از راويان كه در اعصار ايمه بوده‏اند از شيعيان اعتقاد بعصمت ايشان نداشته‏اند بلكه ايشان را از علماى نيكوكار ميدانسته‏اند چنانچه از رجال كشى ظاهر ميشود و مع ذلك ايمه (ع) حكم بايمان بلكه بعدالت ايشان ميكرده‏اند
Most of the Shia narrators around the Imams didn’t believe in their infallibility but considered them pious scholars only, as is clear from Rijal Kashi, and still the Imams would declare them faithful and even trustworthy. [Haqqul Yaqin, p. 544]

Zlatan I thought you were interested in posts related to the topic.

What Shahid Al-Thani (rah) says would make sense as he says it was hidden to them.
Shia narrators around the Imams didn't know about the attributes of Imamah, the qualities of Imams, supposedly people superior to Prophets. They didn't know the basics of Imamah. Quite Ironic.

So you in a way agree the topic and you should have no issues with the topic of the thread, and to claim out of ignorance that:
Quote
All I can say is that this thread is filled with nonsense and lies.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Grand Ayatollah Kamal al-Haydari says the Shia of the first three centuries did NOT believe in the concept of INFALLIBILITY of the Imams. He provides evidence from Shia books.



All I can say is that this thread is filled with nonsense and lies. As for Sayyed Kamal Al-Haydari, many people have refuted his statements so I am sure this is just another one of those statements.

In anyway, we have sahih hadiths proving isma.

The renowned Shia scholar of Hadith al-Shaheed al-Thani says in his book “Haqaeq al-Iman” pages 150-152:

“What is apparent from the condition of their Shia who lived in their time and narrated from them the Ahadeeth may peace be upon them, that MANY OF THEM did not believe in their infallibility because it was hidden from them but they used to believe that the Imams were pious obedient scholars, anyone who follows their stories and narrations knows this”

Shia Allama Majlisi quotes Shaheed al thani  as saying:

جمعى از راويان كه در اعصار ايمه بوده‏اند از شيعيان اعتقاد بعصمت ايشان نداشته‏اند بلكه ايشان را از علماى نيكوكار ميدانسته‏اند چنانچه از رجال كشى ظاهر ميشود و مع ذلك ايمه (ع) حكم بايمان بلكه بعدالت ايشان ميكرده‏اند
Most of the Shia narrators around the Imams didn’t believe in their infallibility but considered them pious scholars only, as is clear from Rijal Kashi, and still the Imams would declare them faithful and even trustworthy. [Haqqul Yaqin, p. 544]

Zlatan I thought you were interested in posts related to the topic.

What Shahid Al-Thani (rah) says would make sense as he says it was hidden to them.
Shia narrators around the Imams didn't know about the attributes of Imamah, the qualities of Imams, supposedly people superior to Prophets. They didn't know the basics of Imamah. Quite Ironic.

So you in a way agree the topic and you should have no issues with the topic of the thread, and to claim out of ignorance that:
Quote
All I can say is that this thread is filled with nonsense and lies.

Yes they believed in Imamah, but the details of Imamah were hidden from them.  If it was hidden to them they are excused.

As for my statement, it wasn't directed at what Haydari claimed, it was directed at some of the claims attributed to the scholars, namely "rifts".
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Noor-us-Sunnah

Grand Ayatollah Kamal al-Haydari says the Shia of the first three centuries did NOT believe in the concept of INFALLIBILITY of the Imams. He provides evidence from Shia books.



All I can say is that this thread is filled with nonsense and lies. As for Sayyed Kamal Al-Haydari, many people have refuted his statements so I am sure this is just another one of those statements.

In anyway, we have sahih hadiths proving isma.

The renowned Shia scholar of Hadith al-Shaheed al-Thani says in his book “Haqaeq al-Iman” pages 150-152:

“What is apparent from the condition of their Shia who lived in their time and narrated from them the Ahadeeth may peace be upon them, that MANY OF THEM did not believe in their infallibility because it was hidden from them but they used to believe that the Imams were pious obedient scholars, anyone who follows their stories and narrations knows this”

Shia Allama Majlisi quotes Shaheed al thani  as saying:

جمعى از راويان كه در اعصار ايمه بوده‏اند از شيعيان اعتقاد بعصمت ايشان نداشته‏اند بلكه ايشان را از علماى نيكوكار ميدانسته‏اند چنانچه از رجال كشى ظاهر ميشود و مع ذلك ايمه (ع) حكم بايمان بلكه بعدالت ايشان ميكرده‏اند
Most of the Shia narrators around the Imams didn’t believe in their infallibility but considered them pious scholars only, as is clear from Rijal Kashi, and still the Imams would declare them faithful and even trustworthy. [Haqqul Yaqin, p. 544]

Zlatan I thought you were interested in posts related to the topic.

What Shahid Al-Thani (rah) says would make sense as he says it was hidden to them.
Shia narrators around the Imams didn't know about the attributes of Imamah, the qualities of Imams, supposedly people superior to Prophets. They didn't know the basics of Imamah. Quite Ironic.

So you in a way agree the topic and you should have no issues with the topic of the thread, and to claim out of ignorance that:
Quote
All I can say is that this thread is filled with nonsense and lies.

Yes they believed in Imamah, but the details of Imamah were hidden from them.  If it was hidden to them they are excused.

As for my statement, it wasn't directed at what Haydari claimed, it was directed at some of the claims attributed to the scholars, namely "rifts".

ok, So didn't they understand from Quran that Imams are infallible. I mean to them there was no evidence in Quran which proved infallibility.

And the later Shias who try to prove infallibility from Quran, are just fooling the people.


Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Grand Ayatollah Kamal al-Haydari says the Shia of the first three centuries did NOT believe in the concept of INFALLIBILITY of the Imams. He provides evidence from Shia books.



All I can say is that this thread is filled with nonsense and lies. As for Sayyed Kamal Al-Haydari, many people have refuted his statements so I am sure this is just another one of those statements.

In anyway, we have sahih hadiths proving isma.

The renowned Shia scholar of Hadith al-Shaheed al-Thani says in his book “Haqaeq al-Iman” pages 150-152:

“What is apparent from the condition of their Shia who lived in their time and narrated from them the Ahadeeth may peace be upon them, that MANY OF THEM did not believe in their infallibility because it was hidden from them but they used to believe that the Imams were pious obedient scholars, anyone who follows their stories and narrations knows this”

Shia Allama Majlisi quotes Shaheed al thani  as saying:

جمعى از راويان كه در اعصار ايمه بوده‏اند از شيعيان اعتقاد بعصمت ايشان نداشته‏اند بلكه ايشان را از علماى نيكوكار ميدانسته‏اند چنانچه از رجال كشى ظاهر ميشود و مع ذلك ايمه (ع) حكم بايمان بلكه بعدالت ايشان ميكرده‏اند
Most of the Shia narrators around the Imams didn’t believe in their infallibility but considered them pious scholars only, as is clear from Rijal Kashi, and still the Imams would declare them faithful and even trustworthy. [Haqqul Yaqin, p. 544]

Zlatan I thought you were interested in posts related to the topic.

What Shahid Al-Thani (rah) says would make sense as he says it was hidden to them.
Shia narrators around the Imams didn't know about the attributes of Imamah, the qualities of Imams, supposedly people superior to Prophets. They didn't know the basics of Imamah. Quite Ironic.

So you in a way agree the topic and you should have no issues with the topic of the thread, and to claim out of ignorance that:
Quote
All I can say is that this thread is filled with nonsense and lies.

Yes they believed in Imamah, but the details of Imamah were hidden from them.  If it was hidden to them they are excused.

As for my statement, it wasn't directed at what Haydari claimed, it was directed at some of the claims attributed to the scholars, namely "rifts".

ok, So didn't they understand from Quran that Imams are infallible. I mean to them there was no evidence in Quran which proved infallibility.

And the later Shias who try to prove infallibility from Quran, are just fooling the people.

Well they may have even denied the infallibility of the Prophets. And it is also possible that they didn't understand the Verses in the Qur'an which some Shi'a say prove infallibility.

Sometimes the tafsir of the Imams is needed.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

 

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