Salam brother [
Wa Alaikum Salaam
I just want to make it clear that it is only that single variation that you quoted that suggests that it can be interpreted both ways. The other variations are declarations. They are prophesies.
Other variations can also be perceived as conditional statements, based upon the report I have used, since the Sunni twelve leaders are not meant by Hadith, due the restriction applied by the Prophet to the number of the successors, which goes against the nature of the Khalifate and the izza of Islam, in whatever category you place that greatness.
I stated:
"Here is something else for you to consider,the power and dominance which you guys boast about, CONTINUED even AFTER the rule of the 12 sunni Khalifas, so it does not make ANY sense for the Prophet to RESTRICT such an AFFAIR to the 12 Leaders only! (Read the report again)"
That is a good question.
Thanks for being honest. Now let's see how you have handled it.
Though, a number of interpretations can be provided as to what is meant.
It could be the excessive inner struggles between those that want power.
Well that also continued beyond the 12th Khalifah, so that answer doesn't meet the objection.
It could also be about the expansion rate of the Muslims of the time. As I mentioned in my article, by the end of the rule of twelve caliphs, Muslims have already conquered Andalusia to China, that there wasn't much "new" greatness after that
If the greatness was linked to the rate of expansion, then Islam is more greater today then it has ever been. However, when Allah said, "And you see the people entering into (the) religion (of) Allah (in) multitudes..." He meant that for all ages. So, whether new or old, that greatness, is not the greatness which is spoken about in the Hadith. I know that's not your personal choice of interpretation, so we will not bother with it anymore.
Furthermore, the narration does not say that greatness will not exist within the nation any more. It is simply referring to a continuous state of greatness.
Thank you for admitting that, which takes you back to my main question, which you praised. So if the Hadith is referring to a continuous state of greatness, then why restrict the Leaders to number twelve? That's where the Sunni interpretation fails, whatever it may be.
[/Quote]Remember, this narration is said in a context of a new found greatness. After more than a decade of weakness in the early days of Islam, the Muslims finally started to overwhelm the lands. It was then that the Prophet peace be upon him said that it would continue to in its current state.[/Quote]
So are you restricting the greatness to the conquering of the lands only?
The report I quoted is authentic too. It cannot be dismissed rather reconciled with other reports. Here it is again:
Jabir bin Samura said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say: The affairs of the people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by twelve men..."Do you see the words: "The AFFAIRS of the people will continue to be conducted well..." ?
Does that refer to the conquering of the lands only???
If it does, then you have a point (at the moment) and if not then, will you try harder to give us a better explanation in the light of the above report?
Till then, I still stand to claim that all the reports that are speaking about the 12 Leaders are conditional. Not only based upon the report I have used, but how the Prophet's words do not conform to the test of history and reality.
Here are the words of another report found in Sahih Muslim,that support my case:
" لاَ يَزَالُ الإِسْلاَمُ عَزِيزًا إِلَى اثْنَىْ عَشَرَ خَلِيفَةً "
Islam will continue to be AZIZ (strong /powerful) until there have been twelve successors.Hang on, Islam was strong and powerful even after the 12th Khalifah, right? Then why is the Prophet restricting its MIGHT AND POWER to the 12th Leader only?
Inspect these words from Sahih Muslim also:
" لاَ يَزَالُ الدِّينُ قَائِمًا حَتَّى تَقُومَ السَّاعَةُ أَوْ يَكُونَ عَلَيْكُمُ اثْنَا عَشَرَ خَلِيفَةً كُلُّهُمْ مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ "
The Islamic religion will continue until the Hour has been established, or you have been ruled over by twelve Caliphs, all of them being from the Quraish.Well the Islamic religion, continued to be established even after the rule of 12th Sunni leader, if the Khalifate system was genuine to begin with.
You see, unless we reconcile the reports to give them a conditional meaning, we will continue to face statements that cannot be restricted the twelve Sunni leaders.
Secondly, may I request something. When you offer opinions and interpretations, only restrict yourself to the one which you agree with most. I am discussing with you at the moment, so would like to have your personal choices involved. I hope that's not too much of a problem for you. It will save our time. Thanks.