Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas

[Shia_student]

I am aware that narrators use such terms interchangeably. That is not the issue...

That is an ongoing issue because you have been unable to provide a reasonable and a satisfactory explanation between the reports that have used conflicting titles for the Islamic Leaders!

On top of that, the problem has now escalated to your stubbornness...

[Farid]

If the term can be applied to all the leaders, then why restrict it to the twelve leaders only?

I already have. The narration does not restrict caliphs to twelve. It a prophecy of the period of greatness.

I never said that there will only be twelve caliphs, nor can this be inferred from the hadith.

Rather than contradicting yourself and the textual evidences, please make some sense when reconciling the reports in question, OR GIVE UP WASTING TIME!

I'm not wasting any time. You were given an opportunity on these boards to prove your faith by bringing evidence for the Imamah of the Twelve Imams from the hadith of Jabir. You've wasted 60% of that opportunity arguing linguistics. Keep it up.

[Shia_student]

The narration does not restrict caliphs to twelve...

I never said that there will only be twelve caliphs...

I think you are ignoring the issue at hand. You have been trying to reconcile the reports which speak about the leaders as "Khalifahs" and "Imams" and by doing so you stated:

When the Prophet peace be upon him spoke about twelve men, he referred to them as caliphs/ameers.

And:

When the Prophet peace be upon him spoke about general rulers of the Islamic empire, he referred to them as many things.

He referred to them as Sultan and Ameer (Al-Bukhari #6530). He also referred to them as Imams

Thus, you have divided the leaders into two groups.

You restricted the term "Khalifahs" to the twelve men of Jabir's Hadith and used "Imams" and other tiles for the rest of the leaders...

I then, provided for you many other reports to encounter your invalid division...

Rather than wasting FUTHER time by repeating yourself, mixing with one issue with another, and taking the discussion out of context, please provide for us a satisfactory explanation on the "contradictory" terms used for the leaders, by reconciling the reports in question!

I have made it clear, your division as shown above is invalid!

I'm not wasting any time. You were given an opportunity on these boards to prove your faith by bringing evidence for the Imamah of the Twelve Imams from the hadith of Jabir.

How could I have jumped from one issue to another when we didn't get down to finish the Sunni view of the Hadith first! When we reached the stage, where I asked you to reconcile the reports with different terms, you responded with excuses and invalid explanations. Ever since, you have been wasting time through your repetitions and contradictory views!

Belt up, and offer us a reasonable and a non contradictory explanation on the different terms relating to the leaders, or accept that all such terms were used interchangeably and that the Imams and Khalifas were the SAME MEN being spoken of in different reports, whether they arrived through Jabir or Anas bin Malik!

[Shia_student]

Farid, rather than chasing you for a valid explanation, let me take a different route, so that we to get to stage where I can offer my side of the view and call it an end.

Can you confirm whether Abu Bakr, Umar, and the rest, were included in the Hadith like:

"The Imams are from Quraysh..." (From multiple Sahabah)

"The Imams of the Muslims..." (Sahih Muslim)

If your answer is in the negative, can you tell why have refrained from including them in such Hadith...

[Farid]

accept that all such terms were used interchangeably and that the Imams and Khalifas were the SAME MEN being spoken of in different reports, whether they arrived through Jabir or Anas bin Malik!

Do you mean that the hadith of Safeena, the hadith of Jabir, and the hadith of Anas, are all referring to the same people?

If your answer is in the negative, can you tell why have refrained from including them in such Hadith...

The narrations are guidelines, not prophecies. So it isn't like the Prophet peace be upon him used the word "Imam" with the intention of speaking about those men, but is rather giving guidelines as one can see from the two hadiths that you have previously quoted in full.

Linguistically though, they are Imams.

[Shia_student]

Do you mean that the hadith of Safeena, the hadith of Jabir, and the hadith of Anas, are all referring to the same people?

Did you see me include the Hadith of Safeena? I mentioned two names, Jabir and Anas.

The narrations are guidelines, not prophecies. So it isn't like the Prophet peace be upon him used the word "Imam" with the intention of speaking about those men, but is rather giving guidelines as one can see from the two hadiths that you have previously quoted in full.

Whatever! The end result is, we take the prophetic messages from the narrations! So to say that the Prophet just gave his "guidelines" about those men without having the intent to speak about them as Imams, is plain silly!

Secondly, we are not required to look into the prophetic intentions, we obey him and follow him on all matters!

Now, cut out your philosophical crap and answer my question with some sense and clarity!

[Farid]

I did.

You don't need to like my answers. Carry on.

[Shia_student]

Your philosophy is too philosophical for us, lol, so I think it will be better to revert back to the reconciliation stage.

You said:

The narration does not restrict caliphs to twelve...

I never said that there will only be twelve caliphs...

I think you are ignoring the issue at hand. You have been trying to reconcile the reports which speak about the leaders as "Khalifahs" and "Imams" and by doing so you stated:

When the Prophet peace be upon him spoke about twelve men, he referred to them as caliphs/ameers.

And:

When the Prophet peace be upon him spoke about general rulers of the Islamic empire, he referred to them as many things.

He referred to them as Sultan and Ameer (Al-Bukhari #6530). He also referred to them as Imams

Thus, you have divided the leaders into two groups.

You restricted the term "Khalifahs" to the twelve men of Jabir's Hadith and used "Imams" and other tiles for the rest of the leaders...

I then, provided for you many other reports to encounter your invalid division...

Rather than wasting FUTHER time by repeating yourself, mixing with one issue with another, and taking the discussion out of context, please provide for us a satisfactory explanation on the "contradictory" terms used for the leaders, by reconciling the reports in question...

I have made it clear, your division as shown above is invalid!

[Farid]

You restricted the term "Khalifahs" to the twelve men of Jabir's Hadith and used "Imams" and other tiles for the rest of the leaders...

The term Caliphs is used in the hadith of Jabir, yes, as well as other narrations, like the hadith of Safeenah and Al Irbadh.

[Shia_student]

The term Caliphs is used in the hadith of Jabir...

Wasting time as usual.

Ok, the term used for the leaders is Caliphs, but the report ALSO claims that all such men (as the Leaders) will be FROM the Quraysh...

On the contrary, a STRONGER  version of the report says, it will be the Imams (as the Leaders) and all from Quraysh...

So what's reality? Who was selected to be the actual Leaders from amongst the Quraysh?

Was it, the Caliphs or the Imams?

Since there is a contradiction involved and the stronger Hadith is the one with Imams, what if I say, we should reject the other as a contradictory Shadh, how will you defend the report of Jabir?

The report of Safeenah does not state that the Caliphs will be FROM THE QURAYSH, so you can't use that as a support...

And don't forget, ibn Hajar has stated that he has collected the version, "The Imams are from Quraysh" from FORTY Sahabah.

[Farid]

On the contrary, a STRONGER  version of the report says, it will be the Imams (as the Leaders) and all from Quraysh...

So what's reality? Who was selected to be the actual Leaders from amongst the Quraysh? 

Was it, the Caliphs or the Imams?

Those chosen to rule were both Caliphs and Imams.

Since there is a contradiction involved and the stronger Hadith is the one with Imams, what if I say, we should reject the other as a contradictory Shadh, how will you defend the report of Jabir? 

Ok. Let us reject the hadith of Jabir then.

[Shia_student]

I tried many times to get you to reconcile the reports with differing terms (in a satisfactory manner) but all you have done is repeated your contradictory opinions...

I am sorry, I don't value opinions when they oppose the authentic reports...

At least Hani was honest enough to admit that the reports with different tiles (caliphs and Imams) were speaking about the same men

Anyhow, our discussion stops here, until I see a valid response explaining the different titles used for the Leaders...

So far, I have only seen your repeated view which goes against other reports and your recent philosophy that conflicts with the nature of the Prophet and his statements...

Since we couldn't complete and appreciate your interpretation (due to the time you have wasted), I cannot offer my view at the moment, simply because I do not know were I stand with your view in reference to the contradictory titles found in the Sunni reports...

I would have offered my interpretation in a way, where it would have been difficult for you to argue against, but that can't take place without the clarity of yours first...

Finally, I am utterly sorry for being slightly harsh with you at times. I do mean it. I hope you can ignore that...

Take care. It was nice speaking to you.

[Hadrami]

Started a "discussion" about 12 khulafa hadith, avoiding to answer questions and after 70 posts, not a single interpretation of that hadith from shia point of view. Anither typical shia "debater"

[Ebn Hussein]

It started getting funny and typical Shit...ite when the conspiracy stuff started ("agents" blah blah blah). Big ups to Farid, the amount of cheap attacks he had to ignore from his opponent. I couldn't have control myself. I think what helped him controlling himself was the funny comment where his opponent suggested that he and his fellow Shias have hope left for Farid (to be guided to the Rafidi religion of mess).

In the end of the day, I am pretty sure that the non-biased reader will see in what a mess the Rafidah are. Even one of the most quoted hadith they use to misguide and fool the laymen by telling them that it is a clear-cut hadith for their 12 fallible Imams, turns out to be no where close to Qat3i evidence, not even a Qareenah. The best out come is that every Shia who followed this debate will think twice to use this hadith against a Sunni. Otherwise he will end up like every other Rafidi having to write a 10.000 word essay to somehow prove an Asl (foundation) of the Deen ...

[GreatChineseFall]

If place two statements together:

"The Imams are from the Quraysh"
"The twelve Khalifas will be from the Quraysh"


The meaning we derive is that, the Imams and Khalifas has been used interchangeably. They will be from the Quraysh and their number will be twelve, not that they are different to each other.

Is this really the case? If someone says:

"The Prophets are from Banu Israeel"
"The twelve Messengers will be from Banu Israeel"

Does that mean the terms are equivalent?

[zaid_ibn_ali]

It started getting funny and typical Shit...ite when the conspiracy stuff started ("agents" blah blah blah). Big ups to Farid, the amount of cheap attacks he had to ignore from his opponent. I couldn't have control myself. I think what helped him controlling himself was the funny comment where his opponent suggested that he and his fellow Shias have hope left for Farid (to be guided to the Rafidi religion of mess).

In the end of the day, I am pretty sure that the non-biased reader will see in what a mess the Rafidah are. Even one of the most quoted hadith they use to misguide and fool the laymen by telling them that it is a clear-cut hadith for their 12 fallible Imams, turns out to be no where close to Qat3i evidence, not even a Qareenah. The best out come is that every Shia who followed this debate will think twice to use this hadith against a Sunni. Otherwise he will end up like every other Rafidi having to write a 10.000 word essay to somehow prove an Asl (foundation) of the Deen ...

LOL that chalk board image is so true!!!!