One of the wisdom of appointing the Imams.

[Link]

If a Prophet comes and says "I ask you no reward in this in form of money or anything, but to follow me", people can interpret it that the Prophet is power hungry, and it can give a wrong impression.

Most people seem to always value more to have power and authority then wealth.  Or at least a lot of people do.

The same is true of saying "I ask you no personal wage for it but if you want to be grateful to God, the God's wage for the message is to follow me". The way the human mind works, it will think, wait a minute, this person wants to be followed and is saying he asks no reward but rather it's God asking us a reward and that is for him to be followed.

The Prophets also cannot say "but to follow the Prophets" as they are one of the Prophets, and hence, the same non-eloquent matter would be problematic.

However regarding the family of Mohammad who are not Prophets, the Quran can be saying: say: you seek no personal reward rather your personal reward is with God, but rather say the wage you ask for the message (on behalf of God) is to take a path to God...now before you say AHA he is power hungry and of course what he means by that is obeying him and following him as most of Quran emphasizes on,  while it's true following me would be following God, what I'm actually asking is to love my family if you want to show appreciation to this message,  that recognizing them as guides and attaching yourself to them is the means to God, and not only that but the whole Quran has shown wisdom in chosen guidance through chosen succession of guides one after another who are related both by blood and by a bond that cannot be appreciated in normal language.

That it is in fact, not only something I am asking you, but it's a reminder to the whole world, that anyone from  the whole world will take a path to their Lord if they love my family.

Now before you accuse me of favoring my bloodline,  look, at Quran, look at how God has chosen people in the past, look at the wisdom in it,  indeed it is but a reminder to the worlds.

And this has an eloquence, because it shows, Mohammad trusted a certain people to continue his way, to manifest his guidance, to be the way to God and take his position.  That he is not asking to really follow him alone at the end, so that  people say he is power hungry, but rather he believes others ought to be followed with him in the same capacity.

This if you really think about it, and with how Quran talks about the story of Yusuf and keeping in the background of Yahya inheriting Zakariya, and how much Quran emphasized on this theme linked to chosen families,  that this is no doubt a huge indication of the truthfulness of the message.

Allah saying, if Mohammad truly was doing all this as a reward so he can be followed,  why would he would entrust the message to his family,  and yet emphasize in Quran that of the offspring of Abraham were guided people and that many of them were unjust people.

How would he know the few of his offspring that can take on this role of leadership, how can he expect them to put on act and pretend they are divinely appointed while at the same time, having to maintain the exact same message?

More over, if anyone understood something from Quran that they didn't or had more knowledge then them, this would invalidate them being his chosen family, and they aren't Guides chosen above the world.

One of the wisdom is that it manifests clearly Mohammad was not power hungry, and in mutuwattir saying the Nabi said:

"I am leaving you two weighty things, Quran and my family...."

[muslim720]

Salaam alaykum,
Surah Ash-Shura' verse 23 was revealed in Mecca, long before Imam Ali [ra] married Fatima [ra].....long before Imam Hassan [ra] and Imam Hussain [ra] were born.

Furthermore, the verse is understood by the following authentic narration:
Narrated Tawus:  Ibn 'Abbas recited the Quranic Verse:--'Except to be kind to me for my kin-ship to you--" (42.23) Said bin Jubair said, "(The Verse implies) the kinship of Muhammad."  Ibn 'Abbas said, "There was not a single house (i.e. sub-tribe) of Quraish but had a kinship to the Prophet and so the above verse was revealed in this connection, and its interpretation is: 'O Quraish! You should keep good relation between me (i.e. Muhammad) and you." (Sahih Bukhari, Book 56, Volume 4, Hadith 701)

[Link]

wa alaikom asalam

If it was revealed long before Imam Ali was married to Fatima, then aya becomes a Prophecy even more so than before. Just as Abraham can talk about the final Messenger when he is not born, people can be required to love and appreciate the gift of the the family of Mohammad even if they were not all yet born. Even if it that that time, it was only Imam Ali, but included in that was Fatima and Imams from her offspring.

In fact, the same is true of "the family of Mohammad" in Salah.

There is no doubt that this verse is guiding humanity towards the path of love, the path of love of God's chosen ones.

[Rationalist]

The hadith regarding leaving the family behind is not mutawatir. However, it is sahih. One can believe they are the most knowledgeable, but their opinion is not equal to wahi. 

[muslim720]

If it was revealed long before Imam Ali was married to Fatima, then aya becomes a Prophecy even more so than before. Just as Abraham can talk about the final Messenger when he is not born, people can be required to love and appreciate the gift of the the family of Mohammad even if they were not all yet born. Even if it that that time, it was only Imam Ali, but included in that was Fatima and Imams from her offspring.

Typical!  You did not read, or are deliberately ignoring, the authentic narration in which Ibn Abbas [ra] says that the verse has to do with calling upon Quraish to uphold kinship ties with the Prophet [saw] (not love and follow Ahlul Bayt [ra]).

[Hani]

Dude link you opened a thread about this exact same verse just a few months ago and we dealt with it, can you stop with repetitiveness?

And NO he won't be viewed as power hungry if he told them "I'm only here to guide you to goodness, I don't need any reward or money."

What makes him seem power hungry and malign is if he stated that his relatives are better than everybody else, married his only daughter to his cousin, gave them vast rich lands and then appointed that same cousin as ruler of all humanity.

[muslim720]

What makes him seem power hungry and malign is if he stated that his relatives are better than everybody else, married his only daughter to his cousin, gave them vast rich lands and then appointed that same cousin as ruler of all humanity.

*standing ovation*

[Ibn Yahya]

Link you got ethered

[Link]

Dude link you opened a thread about this exact same verse just a few months ago and we dealt with it, can you stop with repetitiveness?

And NO he won't be viewed as power hungry if he told them "I'm only here to guide you to goodness, I don't need any reward or money."

What makes him seem power hungry and malign is if he stated that his relatives are better than everybody else, married his only daughter to his cousin, gave them vast rich lands and then appointed that same cousin as ruler of all humanity.

Then per you, Allah [swt] made Abraham look power hungry by giving authority to his family.

This is why a lot of Quran was showing the way of the past and emphasized on how a son would inherit from a father in Prophethood often, that this was a constant way of God.

It has a wisdom, and beauty,  and if one were to accept the way of the past, it's as Quran says "Do they envy people for what God has given them out of his grace for we indeed gave the family of Abraham the book and wisdom and gave them a great authority".

It's illogical to reject the family of Mohammad on this basis while accepting the family of Abraham.

At the end of it, Quran predicting a heavy duty that had potential hardship upon those who carry the position of guidance and authority,  it does have eloquence to say "In asking you to follow me, in reality, I am only asking you to follow my family,  that is all I seek from you to show appreciation to the message. It is not a personal wage, for my wage is with God. It is rather for yourselves and reminder to the worlds and for who wants to, to take a path to their Lord".

You can gather that from all ayas. If it said "no wage but to follow me", while it can be interpreted with benefit of the doubt, it just looks uneloquent and bad, because it's in context of wage and intention for the message.

But saying in all this calling to obey me, I am in fact calling to do nothing  but submit with your hearts to my chosen successors, and it is not about me or my family, but taking a path to God, and my family are the means to God and a blessed reminder.

[glorfindel]

This is why a lot of Quran was showing the way of the past and emphasized on how a son would inherit from a father in Prophethood often, that this was a constant way of God.

How does the above apply to Syedna Ali (ra) and the Prophet (saw)?  If the above is true it would apply to the sons of the prophet (saw) and not his cousin and the children of his daughter (ra).

It has a wisdom, and beauty,  and if one were to accept the way of the past, it's as Quran says "Do they envy people for what God has given them out of his grace for we indeed gave the family of Abraham the book and wisdom and gave them a great authority".

It's illogical to reject the family of Mohammad on this basis while accepting the family of Abraham.

At the end of it, Quran predicting a heavy duty that had potential hardship upon those who carry the position of guidance and authority,  it does have eloquence to say "In asking you to follow me, in reality, I am only asking you to follow my family,  that is all I seek from you to show appreciation to the message. It is not a personal wage, for my wage is with God. It is rather for yourselves and reminder to the worlds and for who wants to, to take a path to their Lord".

You can gather that from all ayas. If it said "no wage but to follow me", while it can be interpreted with benefit of the doubt, it just looks uneloquent and bad, because it's in context of wage and intention for the message.

But saying in all this calling to obey me, I am in fact calling to do nothing  but submit with your hearts to my chosen successors, and it is not about me or my family, but taking a path to God, and my family are the means to God and a blessed reminder.

I have a lot of issues with the above.  For one, you claim that you follow the 'Family' of the prophet (saw), are you sure about that?  Who are his family are not Jafar ibn Abi-Talib (ra) and his uncle Abbas not his family, what about his wives?  What about the sons of Al-Hassan (ra), what about the other descendants of Al-Hussein (ra) which you ignore.

You can't have it both ways; you can't say 'we follow the ahlul-bayt' and then ignore sons who are born of the same father - and you guys have labelled them with curses also, that isn't fair (i.e. Jafar the brother of Hasan Al-Askari, named 'the liar' by the twelver scholars).

Not only that, but you follow people who claim that they are the followers and students of the men you revere as none of the Imams left any books of guidance did they?

So have a think about that.

[Link]

This is why a lot of Quran was showing the way of the past and emphasized on how a son would inherit from a father in Prophethood often, that this was a constant way of God.

How does the above apply to Syedna Ali (ra) and the Prophet (saw)?  If the above is true it would apply to the sons of the prophet (saw) and not his cousin and the children of his daughter (ra).

It has a wisdom, and beauty,  and if one were to accept the way of the past, it's as Quran says "Do they envy people for what God has given them out of his grace for we indeed gave the family of Abraham the book and wisdom and gave them a great authority".

It's illogical to reject the family of Mohammad on this basis while accepting the family of Abraham.

At the end of it, Quran predicting a heavy duty that had potential hardship upon those who carry the position of guidance and authority,  it does have eloquence to say "In asking you to follow me, in reality, I am only asking you to follow my family,  that is all I seek from you to show appreciation to the message. It is not a personal wage, for my wage is with God. It is rather for yourselves and reminder to the worlds and for who wants to, to take a path to their Lord".

You can gather that from all ayas. If it said "no wage but to follow me", while it can be interpreted with benefit of the doubt, it just looks uneloquent and bad, because it's in context of wage and intention for the message.

But saying in all this calling to obey me, I am in fact calling to do nothing  but submit with your hearts to my chosen successors, and it is not about me or my family, but taking a path to God, and my family are the means to God and a blessed reminder.

I have a lot of issues with the above.  For one, you claim that you follow the 'Family' of the prophet (saw), are you sure about that?  Who are his family are not Jafar ibn Abi-Talib (ra) and his uncle Abbas not his family, what about his wives?  What about the sons of Al-Hassan (ra), what about the other descendants of Al-Hussein (ra) which you ignore.

You can't have it both ways; you can't say 'we follow the ahlul-bayt' and then ignore sons who are born of the same father - and you guys have labelled them with curses also, that isn't fair (i.e. Jafar the brother of Hasan Al-Askari, named 'the liar' by the twelver scholars).

Not only that, but you follow people who claim that they are the followers and students of the men you revere as none of the Imams left any books of guidance did they?

So have a think about that.

If it was all his biological offspring or offspring of his cousins, and we were expected to treat them better then others, I would agree it would put a bad image, in that it makes it as if the Prophet is looking out for his offspring.

But what is meant by family in Quran sometimes refers to normal definition and sometimes it emphasizes on a higher metaphorical meaning of it, in which it's making an analogy of "those closest and dearest to us, and bonded by blood", to the chosen daughter of the Prophet as well as the 12 Captains with him.

We see how Harun was closer to Musa then others. The same is true of Ali to Mohammad.  And we see that chosen lineage got connected from Isa by his Mother, and so Fatima also being a chosen person by God,  Allah [swt] connected the lineage to Mohammad through Fatima.

And even if were to ignore that, we see that Harun's family is considered Musa's family and vice versa, in Suratal Baqara, in the verses about Talut.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

the Quran mentions explicitly & by name musa, haroon, isa, maryam peace be upon them.
However the Quran no where clearly mentions Ali or fatimah or their offspring.
Your metaphorical deductions mean nothing.

[glorfindel]

But what is meant by family in Quran sometimes refers to normal definition and sometimes it emphasizes on a higher metaphorical meaning of it, in which it's making an analogy of "those closest and dearest to us, and bonded by blood", to the chosen daughter of the Prophet as well as the 12 Captains with him.

There is indeed a strangeness in the words above, you start off talking about the Quran and yet you quote nothing from it, what higher metaphorical meaning are you talking about in relation to family? Some verses from the Quran or a Hadith would be helpful.
You end with 'Chosen Daughter' and 12 Captains - again who chose her? Who chose the 12 Captains thereafter; again some verses of the Quran or Hadith would be much appreciated.

We see how Harun was closer to Musa then others. The same is true of Ali to Mohammad.  And we see that chosen lineage got connected from Isa by his Mother, and so Fatima also being a chosen person by God,  Allah [swt] connected the lineage to Mohammad through Fatima.

And even if were to ignore that, we see that Harun's family is considered Musa's family and vice versa, in Suratal Baqara, in the verses about Talut.

Harun and Musa were brothers of the same Mother and Father - the analogy/similarities do not hold for Muhammed (saw) and Ali(ra).  Isa's (as) lineage for him is a special circumstance as he had no father; that's why the prophet (saw) was not called Muhammed bin Amina nor is Ali (ra) called Ali bin Fatima, they are both referred through the father's line - even as-sibtayn are referred to by their Father (Ali[ra]) not their mother, so I don't know what point you were trying to make with Isa (as).   
In Suratul Baqarah the verses that speak of Talut are not connected to Musa/Harun (as) in anyway from what I have read - if you could provide the verses from Al-Baqarah that talk about Harun/Musa (as) and their special metaphorical family relationship that would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[Hani]

Then per you, Allah [swt] made Abraham look power hungry by giving authority to his family.

This is why a lot of Quran was showing the way of the past and emphasized on how a son would inherit from a father in Prophethood often, that this was a constant way of God.

It has a wisdom, and beauty,  and if one were to accept the way of the past, it's as Quran says "Do they envy people for what God has given them out of his grace for we indeed gave the family of Abraham the book and wisdom and gave them a great authority".

It's illogical to reject the family of Mohammad on this basis while accepting the family of Abraham.

At the end of it, Quran predicting a heavy duty that had potential hardship upon those who carry the position of guidance and authority,  it does have eloquence to say "In asking you to follow me, in reality, I am only asking you to follow my family,  that is all I seek from you to show appreciation to the message. It is not a personal wage, for my wage is with God. It is rather for yourselves and reminder to the worlds and for who wants to, to take a path to their Lord".

You can gather that from all ayas. If it said "no wage but to follow me", while it can be interpreted with benefit of the doubt, it just looks uneloquent and bad, because it's in context of wage and intention for the message.

Dude you're the one who opened this door by saying:

((If a Prophet comes and says "I ask you no reward in this in form of money or anything, but to follow me", people can interpret it that the Prophet is power hungry, and it can give a wrong impression.))

You're the one who began by accusing a prophet of God of being power hungry, I only said that if that statement above makes him power hungry then the Shia definition makes him appear far more power hungry!

SO either you drop your silly argument or we'll accuse you of believing that the Prophet (saw) is power hungry.

One is saying: I don't ask for your money I just wish to guide you.

The other is saying: Submit to my family and chosen successors.

Clearly obvious which is more power hungry on this scale.

Then you say:

((If it said "no wage but to follow me", while it can be interpreted with benefit of the doubt, it just looks uneloquent and bad))

You're un-eloquent! The heck do you know about eloquent!? You can't even comprehend Arabic and you want to lecture us on eloquence?

Seriously, you're delirious and should be placed in a mental asylum.

[omar111]

So where is the successor leader that we should follow? According to Athna ashris, the Imam e zamana is in hiding and not communicating with common man. So shias are inventing strange positions like wilayet e faqih. Denying their own concept of governance of infallibles.