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Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Imamah-Ghaybah => Topic started by: Huzeipha on May 27, 2016, 10:40:22 PM

Title: Philospical proof of why there must not always be an infallible guide on the ear
Post by: Huzeipha on May 27, 2016, 10:40:22 PM
Salam,whenever I try to debate shias. They try to say that one hadith cannot invalidate theit belief in imam. They believe that philosphically if Allah is all just then he must always have a guide in earth. Can someone please refute this belief Philospically. AS IN WHY WOULD IT BE ILLOGICAL FOR ALLAH TO BRING DOWN  INFALLIBLE IMAMS AFTER RASSULLLULAH (SAW)

One proof I've heard is that each nation was given a prophet. The previous Nations would reject the prophet and hence  because Allah is just,he would send down another prophet to preach again. Now why did Allah stop at the Muhamamd(SAW). Because the people who he preached to sucessfully accepted his msssage. Had the sahabas rejected his message then the companions would have been like all the previous Nations and hence Allah woudl require to sned down a propet again.  Thus the sahaba accepting the prophet message proves that sunni islam is right.

Any other philosophical proofs
Title: Re: Philospical proof of why there must not always be an infallible guide on the ear
Post by: Farid on May 27, 2016, 11:03:58 PM
As nice as that sounds in theory, the belief of the Imams being necessary guides is unrealistic.

According to Shias:

- Ali was not able to guide when he was a caliph because the people would not listen to him. Thus, he had to resort to giving fatwas that suited Sunni beliefs, like the prohibition of mutah.

- Al Hasan gave up his role and gave Muawiyah the caliphate. Hasan's role as an Imam is extremely insignificant due to the lack of narrations and fatwas by him too.

- Al Hussain's attempt in fixing the Ummah failed in hid martyrdom. Shias make the silly excuse that he knew he was going to get killed and did it intentionally in order for the Muslim world to realize how evil Yazeed was. I am not even going to start about how ridiculous this theory is.

- The next eight Imams are worthless as guides since they have narrated contradicting fatwas. Shias explain this as taqiyyah. However, it is binding upin Muslims to follow the Imams taqiyyah fatwa as well. In other words, I have to follow whatever I hear from the Imam, even if he gives me the incorrect answer. How is this person a guide for humanity?

- Finally, the Mahdi's occultation alone is enough evidence that Allah can leave man without infallible guides present.

Title: Re: Philospical proof of why there must not always be an infallible guide on the ear
Post by: Abu Muhammad on May 28, 2016, 12:39:28 AM
Wa'alaikumussalam warahmatulLah,
Bro Huzeipha,

You said,

"AS IN WHY WOULD IT BE ILLOGICAL FOR ALLAH TO BRING DOWN  INFALLIBLE IMAMS AFTER RASSULLLULAH (SAW)"

You can't refute that logic because it is logical. But logical argument doesn't neccessarily equal to truth. There are a lot of examples out there. One of them that I can think of is Evolution Theory. Logic but not the truth.

So, what we need to put forward to them is that whether that logical argument matches with the reality that has been happening for the past 1,100 years. Since they argue that we need an infallible guide after Rasulullah s.a.w., ask them to show you one PRACTICAL EXAMPLE how their current imam is guiding them for the past 1,100 years. Just one PRACTICAL EXAMPLE (and you'll start to see how "illogical" their answers will be, if they have any). In fact, their reliance on fallible ulama' and ayatullahs for the past 1,000 years or so just prove that nobody is guding them.

And you can see immediately after that, the discussion in lightning speed will change to reasoning for the infallible imam goes into hiding.  :D
Title: Re: Philospical proof of why there must not always be an infallible guide on the ear
Post by: Sheikh on May 28, 2016, 03:47:22 AM
Ask: who was the infallible Imam immediately before Prophet Mohammed (saws)?  There was 600 years between Jesus and Mohammed, who were the infallible guides?

If they say Abd al-Mutalib, ask about other gaps like from Ibrahim to Nooh. Who were the imams at that time? Where is the evidence that they existed?
Title: Re: Philospical proof of why there must not always be an infallible guide on the ear
Post by: Hani on May 28, 2016, 05:04:53 AM
((They believe that philosphically if Allah is all just then he must always have a guide in earth.))

A- Great, does that "guide" have to be a man? Why can't the guide be the book of Allah, a clear, simple book with strong divine arguments?

B- According to Shia, god is unjust since he does not have a guide in earth. A person can only be described as "guide" if he guides people, since this man did not guide anybody then he is not a guide. He can be described as a scholar, since he knows a lot of things, but as long as he does not guide us then he isn't a guide.

There's many random things we can think of to refute their philosophy.
Title: Re: Philospical proof of why there must not always be an infallible guide on the ear
Post by: Ibn Yahya on June 03, 2016, 02:21:18 AM
The Ummah has had nearly 100 years without a Caliph and Islam is growing. If an Imam was the pillar of the religion then botn Islam and Tashayyu' would've collapsed. But neither have so our existence proves Imamah wrong in a sense.