TwelverShia.net Forum

Place of Harun hadith along with thaqalain/alimawla prove Ahlulbayt Authority.

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Hani

review my book on Abu Bakr.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Link

I don't believe in those hadiths about Abu Baker and Umar being like Prophets, so why would use them against me.

We are discussing a mutuwatir hadith that we all believe has been narrated.

When I said take the place of Mohammad, I don't mean Mohammad couldn't have appointed people to rule in different areas. This doesn't mean those people are taking the place of Mohammad.

When Harun took the place of Musa, his leadership wasn't simply that of other appointed people.  What is ironic, is that you mentioned that Talut didn't even take place of a Prophet but was a military leader.  So you say Talut is not taking a place of a Prophet yet you say companions are by their limited leadership. This is called double standards in your argument.

Harun taking place of Musa was not limited leadership but had divine leadership and Wilayah of Allah.  What I mean taking place of Mohammad is taking his full leadership role as God's representative.  That is something Ali had and would take in his absence, but not something others had, and that is something Harun had.

Now as for Talut, we have the following statements of Quran:

1. He is of the mustafayoon above the people.
2. He was foremost in knowledge.
3. He was given God's Mulk (ie. God's authority)
4. He was bringing the inheritance of the family of Musa and Harun which had tranquility from God for the people, the Angels bearing it.
5. God through him tried people with a river.
6. Those believers who were steadfast in the trial were "from him/of him" while those who didn't were not.

As for 3, this is the most explicit proof that Talut was a Leader appointed by God with full authority of God, it didn't state, and God gives from his authority who he pleases, but says gives HIS authority to who he pleases, meaning Talut had all of it, he was to be obeyed fully in all his commands and we see that Talut does command people with a spiritual command (ie. don't drink from the river) on behalf of God. We also see believers were from him, and it was emphasized believers were with him. He was also stated to be chosen above them showing he has superior spiritual qualities. He was also stated to bring the Tabut which had tranquility from God to the people and that would be the sign of his authority showing his authority was more then political but even had that as divine sign of it. Furthermore, what the Prophet stated that proves his authority shows ALL Prophets are true kings of humanity that God has risen them kings. This because each is chosen above the people, superior in knowledge, God gives his authority to who he pleases and God is the true King to be obeyed. To say they didn't rule humanity is to say God doesn't rule humanity.


As well, we see Mariam is chosen and part of a chosen family (family of Imran) above the worlds, and so it's not necessarily that you must be a Prophet to be have an exalted status of chosen one.

You stated "except there is no Prophet after me" was just clarification not to compare to a Prophet. But the phrase, the manizalah of Harun to Musa INCLUDES being a Prophet along side Musa. This shows unlike what you stated, it cannot be just about temporal leadership in the event of Tabuk, because if it was only having temporal representation of Harun taking place of Musa, it would not make sense to mention Prophethood as part of that. The fact he mentioned it contrary to what you claim, gives all the other positions that Harun had with Musa.

This is clear by the sentence structure. For what you said to make sense, he would of said "and there is no Prophet after me", instead of saying "except there is no Prophet after me".  The except shows his statement would of implied Ali was a Prophet after Mohammad were it not for him making that exception. This is what it means. So it means all other place Harun had with Musa, Ali has with Mohammad.

Bringing hadiths I don't believe in are ad hoc arguments.

« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 02:10:21 PM by Link »
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Aba AbdAllah

Mariam [as] was a chosen a person, yet not a Prophet. As the exception was not made "except that there is no chosen person after me", we can conclude that then Ali was chosen.

Talut [as] was a chosen leader, yet not a Prophet. As the exception was not made "except that there is no chosen leader after me", we can conclude Ali was a chosen leader. The 12 chiefs of bani-Israel were also non-Prophet chosen leaders.

What was said to Ali(RA) during Tabook was in regards to Harun(AS) not Mariam(AS), Talut or 12 chiefs of Bani Israel(who broke the covenant of God), hence irrelevant example used.

Also, being chosen is a description not a position like Prophet-hood or Messenger-hood. And the word chosen general which is depends on the context and the role, like the other companions were chosen for similar tasks from leading armies to teaching Islam to being in charge over Madinah in absence of Prophet.


Quote
Harun (as) was by which Musa (as) breast got expanded and the knot on his tongue lifted as Harun (as) was better at speech (regarding the higher truths which Musa felt he couldn't convey as well) and hence was the DOOR to understanding the wisdom of Musa, and his revelation was the door to the interior of the religion and the high knowledge.

Ali (as) was also then the door to the house of wisdom (Mohammad (saw)) but was not a Prophet and there is an allusion to him in Suratal Inshira coupled with Musa's prayer through out the Quran, and also correspondence particular that of Suratal Taha with "did we not raise your mention".
How exactly did the breast of Musa(AS) got expanded through Harun(AS)?

BTW mind you that what you are saying has no comparison because Musa(AS) made this supplication from the very first day he was given the task, but this is not the case with Muhammad(SAW), since Ali(RA) was a 7 yr old boy that time, and Prophet(SAW) delivered the message all alone in the beginning and later involved his companions to deliver the message and teachings of Islam.

For more detailed study on this issue refer this article:
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2014/12/07/smashing-the-myth-of-taking-ahlul-bayt-as-the-only-conveyors-of-islamic-knowledge/

Quote

Harun (as) was such that he would take the place of Musa (as) in his absence. Ali (as) would be such that he takes the place of Mohammad (saw) in his absence.
Don't forget that Muhammad(SAW) appointed in his place other companions too on other occasions.

The problem with you is that you are stretching it out of its context, and this hadeeth is to be understood in its context. The right understanding of the hadeeth is that,  in this appointment Ali's condition is same as Haroon(AS), which I explained in previous post. But if you stretch it out to make it overall similarility then it becomes a must on you to believe that Ali(RA) was not supposed to be the successor of Muhammad(Saw), since Haroon wasn't. So you can't play these double standards here.

Quote
Harun (as) had total guidance from God and was to be followed with Musa (as) "...and they who follow you both shall be victorious".
Yes because HE was a Prophet, so he was to be followed unconditionally but the same doesn't goes for Ali(RA) since he wasn't a Prophet.

Quote
Harun (as) had to recognized as God's Chosen one along side recognizing Musa (as) "Lord of Harun and Musa". The same is true of Ali (as). (Mariam (as) is chosen, Talut (as) is chosen, and both are not Prophets).
Harun(AS) was a Prophet, which encompasses being a chosen one. But if you mean that He was chosen one for the task of care taking the people in absence of Musa(AS) for a temporary time period then, you should acknowledge the fact that such selection was not restricted for Ali(RA), because others too were chosen on other occasions for care taking the people in absence of Prophet(SAW).

Link

Musa (as) words are paraphrased in different places. In one place it says "And my heart is constricted and my tongue doesn't reach out so send me Harun" (so we can see what is meant by his other words in Quran).

In another place it says "And Harun is better at me in speech so...", so we can see what was meant by his words. These are phrases interpreting each other. So we know what is meant by "expand me my breast, and take off the knot off my tongue)

At the way it was expanded was due to the hidden knowledge in Musa (as) being able to be conveyed to the masses without feeling people will not understand him or that he cannot convey the truth, while before that he felt he couldn't convey and there was a knot on his tongue.

Ali (as) being whatever age is no problem as we see Yahya (as) was made a Prophet when he was very young. This is not an issue. And we believe some of our Imams became the ones to lead at a very young age, so this would be another ad hoc argument.

Ali (as) was the door to the house of wisdom and the gate to the city of knowledge and he had that role during the life time of the Nabi (saw0, and hence had this role of Harun (as) to Musa (as).

Mariam (as) and Talut (as) are both chosen but not Prophets. Not being a Prophet would not mean he is not a chosen one.  Being chosen in the sense of being specially chosen by God meant you were of an exalted station. At any rate, what I mean is that Mariam (as) was an exalted person by God, towering above normal people. The same can would be true of Ali having the position to Mohammad as Harun to Musa, as Harun was a trial of being an exalted person towering above normal people alongside Musa.

And if included in the temporary station was that of Prophethood, then the same with being a chosen one, a leader, the wazeer, and all other stations he had with Musa, including being an exalted person to be recognized and followed.

And the 12 Naqeebs weren't the ones who broke the covenant, it was referring to Bani-Israel who broke the covenant, as is obvious as then it refers to the present one among them and says words about them.


« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 04:33:58 PM by Link »
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Hani

You said:

((I don't believe in those hadiths about Abu Baker and Umar being like Prophets, so why would use them against me.

We are discussing a mutuwatir hadith that we all believe has been narrated.))

We accept what the Imams of Hadith narrate, and they narrated both, so either we accept one and refuse the other like utter hypocrites or both are a Hujjah. Besides where did you get this idea that the only narrations to be used are Mutawatir ones? What innovation is this?

You said:
((When I said take the place of Mohammad, I don't mean Mohammad couldn't have appointed people to rule in different areas. This doesn't mean those people are taking the place of Mohammad.

When Harun took the place of Musa, his leadership wasn't simply that of other appointed people.  What is ironic, is that you mentioned that Talut didn't even take place of a Prophet but was a military leader.  So you say Talut is not taking a place of a Prophet yet you say companions are by their limited leadership. This is called double standards in your argument.))

It's called stating the facts, you wish for me to change the facts? Besides the Prophet (saw) said: "Whoever obeys the Emir obeys me." Meaning, when he leaves a man in charge, then we are to obey whoever he left in charge. Is the situation comprehensible for you or is it too complicated? The people asked their Prophet to appoint a leader to lead them in battle, he chose one and asked them to obey him, after the battle another Prophet called Dawoud (as) emerged. This does not resemble the Shiite Imamah at all. As for our Prophet (saw), he would also appoint men as his successors when he leaves Madinah, he would appoint men as military leaders, he would appoint men as princes of Hajj etc... What's so abnormal I don't understand. `Ali happened to complain when he was appointed as successor over Madinah, he didn't like it, so the Prophet (saw) comforted him by explaining to him the importance of this task and `Ali was pleased. Too complicated for you? Or is this rare and illogical?

((Harun taking place of Musa was not limited leadership but had divine leadership and Wilayah of Allah.))

Because Haroun (as) was a Prophet, `Ali isn't and thus `Ali had nothing divine about his temporary Wilayah.

You wrote this large paragraph of uselesness:
((Now as for Talut, we have the following statements of Quran:

1. He is of the mustafayoon above the people.
2. He was foremost in knowledge.
3. He was given God's Mulk (ie. God's authority)
4. He was bringing the inheritance of the family of Musa and Harun which had tranquility from God for the people, the Angels bearing it.
5. God through him tried people with a river.
6. Those believers who were steadfast in the trial were "from him/of him" while those who didn't were not.

As for 3, this is the most explicit proof that Talut was a Leader appointed by God with full authority of God, it didn't state, and God gives from his authority who he pleases, but says gives HIS authority to who he pleases, meaning Talut had all of it, he was to be obeyed fully in all his commands and we see that Talut does command people with a spiritual command (ie. don't drink from the river) on behalf of God. We also see believers were from him, and it was emphasized believers were with him. He was also stated to be chosen above them showing he has superior spiritual qualities. He was also stated to bring the Tabut which had tranquility from God to the people and that would be the sign of his authority showing his authority was more then political but even had that as divine sign of it. Furthermore, what the Prophet stated that proves his authority shows ALL Prophets are true kings of humanity that God has risen them kings. This because each is chosen above the people, superior in knowledge, God gives his authority to who he pleases and God is the true King to be obeyed. To say they didn't rule humanity is to say God doesn't rule humanity.))

Did you not see the narration of al-Sadiq above where he said that the man's mission was nothing more than military leadership? And that all those divine orders were not from his own pocket but were the instructions the Prophet of his time gave him? In other words he only obeyed his instructions, he wasn't receiving revelation nor did he have anything special other than being a righteous knowledgeable person. As for the Tabout descending this is because banu israel only believed when they saw miracles, so Allah had to send them a miracles to make them believe, it serves no purpose other than this.

Let me re-quote it:

المجمع والعياشي عن الصادق عليه السلام قال كان الملك في ذلك الزمان هو الذي يسير بالجنود والنبي يقيم له أمره وينبئه بالخبر من عند ربه

In al-Safi, al-Majma` and al-`Ayyashi from al-Sadiq that he said: "In those days the king used to lead the soldiers into battle, whereas the prophet would make sure to keep him on the path and prophesy to him what the Lord reveals."

THIS IS NOT SHIITE IMAMAH! The definition of Imamah as per your scholars is VERY different than this, in fact Islam as a whole never had this system as it was solely for banu Isra'il.

Everything you wrote there is useless filler content, not one solid argument worth an answer.

Here's a guy whom Allah "gave" kingship yet he is a Kafir who argued with Ibrahim (as):

{Have you not considered the one who argued with Abraham about his Lord [merely] because Allah had given him kingship?} [2:258]

((As well, we see Mariam is chosen and part of a chosen family (family of Imran) above the worlds, and so it's not necessarily that you must be a Prophet to be have an exalted status of chosen one.))

And I am chosen to write this forum post to refute you, or do you think we as humans do things that Allah doesn't allow? What was Mariam (as) chosen for? Political leadership? Why the heck are you linking Mariam (as) with `Ali!? Pull yourself together man!

((You stated "except there is no Prophet after me" was just clarification not to compare to a Prophet. But the phrase, the manizalah of Harun to Musa INCLUDES being a Prophet along side Musa. This shows unlike what you stated, it cannot be just about temporal leadership in the event of Tabuk, because if it was only having temporal representation of Harun taking place of Musa, it would not make sense to mention Prophethood as part of that. The fact he mentioned it contrary to what you claim, gives all the other positions that Harun had with Musa.))

I disagree and say that you're wrong and that this phrase is only to clarify for foolish people (there's no shortage of them) that `Ali is not in any way of any divine status rather his successor-ship in Madinah is a temporal one similar to Haroun's (as) temporal leadership, nor did Haroun (as) succeed nor did he rule, heck Harouns (as) never even had authority over the people in the absence of Musa (as), proof is he didn't do anything to prevent the people from worshiping the calf.

I'd have to say, if the Prophet (saw) intended absolute authority and gave the example of Haroun (as) instead of Yusha` (as), then that's a pretty bad choice.

You said:
((This is clear by the sentence structure. For what you said to make sense, he would of said "and there is no Prophet after me", instead of saying "except there is no Prophet after me".))

In Arabic both linguistically imply the same thing so don't bother with this type of argument and don't invent arguments from your pocket.

Also for a person whose talking about sentence structure, you seem to not understand the entire context which is more clearer.

قَالَ: خَلَفَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ عَلِيًّا فِي أَهْلِهِ حِينَ غَزَا غَزْوَةَ تَبُوكَ، فَقَالَ بَعْضُ النَّاسِ: مَا مَنَعَهُ أَنْ يُخْرِجَهُ إِلا أَنْ كَرِهَ صُحْبَتَهُ. فَبَلَغَ ذَلِكَ عَلِيًّا، فَقَالَ: يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ، زَعَمَ النَّاسُ أَنَّكَ لَمْ تَخْلُفْنِي إِلا أَنَّكَ كَرِهْتَ صُحْبَتِي

[The Messenger (saw) left behind `Ali in charge of his folks when he conquered Tabouk, so some people said: "He only left him back there as he hated his company." When `Ali heard of this he went to the Prophet (saw) and said: "O Messenger of Allah (saw), the people claimed that you left me only because you detest my company!?"...]

And a couple of similar versions exist where he cries and whatever... SO the Prophet (saw) clarified to him that leaving him behind was not due to any hatred or lack of faith in his ability or due to his small status in his eyes, NO it's because of his trust in `Ali and strong faith just as Musa (as) left behind Haroun (as) at that time.

This for us, isn't an appointment, in fact if we blew the narrations of virtues out of proportion the same way you Shiites do we'd have a couple of successors.

We can take abu `Ubaydah's Hadith:

"For every nation there is a trustee and the trusted person of my nation is abu `Ubaydah."

Or Zubayr's Hadith:

"Every prophet had a disciple and my disciple is al-Zubayr ibn al-`Awwam."

Or `Abbas's Hadith:

"`Abbas is my uncle and a man's uncle is in position of his father."

etc...

All of these can be argued to be texts of appointment.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 08:39:09 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Link forget about all the long useless posts you dragged us to, answer this question:

Was Haroun (as) the man Musa (as) appointed as his successor in prophet-hood before his death?

If "Yes" then you have an argument, if "No" then `Ali also isn't the appointed successor after our Prophet (saw).
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 06:52:21 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

sameer

in one place, musa is mentioned, in another place harun is mentioned..
in one place mariyam is mentioned, in one place yahya is mentioned,
in one place talut is mentioned,
in one place Prophet Muhammad SAWW is mentioned..but no where Ali is mentioned..

1400 yrs have been past nd still you guys fail to prove Hazrat Ali imamat from the holy Quran, this seem very odd whn you look towards the hadith by supporting ur argument..nd by doing this u are actually supporting our point that no where Ali imamat is mentioned in the holy Quran..

Link

I was using Mariam and Talut to show to be an exalted person chosen above rest of humanity, you don't need to be a Prophet.

At any rate, we are going in circles. I think I've said enough of what I have had to say.

I'm not going to argue about who actually succeeded Musa, but one thing to consider is, Quran says Musa at one time had no control over anybody but his brother, and to separate between them (him and his brother) and the transgressing people.

A person who was going to become a Prophet, certainly, Musa would control over him because he would be obedient to God.   If we are going to go by what Jews and Christians say, then certainly Joshua was in the wilderness for about 40 years. Now why would one of God's Prophets or Successors to his Prophet be such that Musa has no control over and be separated from Musa and Harun when they said separate us from the transgressing people.

But it doesn't matter who succeeded Musa or not, and I've already explained why.


Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Hani

Link, you need to understand that the fact that we're having an argument about what this could mean, this itself shows that it's not a text of appointment. Evidence must be CLEAR, not metaphorical or vague texts that can be given a plethora of valid interpretations.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Link

Quran and hadith are clear enough, it's just some hearts are not clean enough.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Hani

Quran and hadith are clear enough, it's just some hearts are not clean enough.

Qur'an says this:

{And the first forerunners [in the faith] among the Muhajireen and the Ansar and those who followed them with good conduct - Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him} [9:100]

Let's see your clean heart when it comes to explicit verses, or is your clean heart only attached to vague narrations that withstand more than 20 interpretations?
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Aba AbdAllah

Musa (as) words are paraphrased in different places. In one place it says "And my heart is constricted and my tongue doesn't reach out so send me Harun" (so we can see what is meant by his other words in Quran).
Please provide the Chapter and verse number of this verse.


Quote
At the way it was expanded was due to the hidden knowledge in Musa (as) being able to be conveyed to the masses without feeling people will not understand him or that he cannot convey the truth, while before that he felt he couldn't convey and there was a knot on his tongue.
Sorry I didnt get you. Musa(AS) asked Allah to expand his breast, through Harun(AS), how ??

Quote
Ali (as) being whatever age is no problem as we see Yahya (as) was made a Prophet when he was very young. This is not an issue. And we believe some of our Imams became the ones to lead at a very young age, so this would be another ad hoc argument.
You missed the point that I was talking about facts, since Ali(RA) was a seven year boy, when Prophethood was granted to Muhammad(SAW) so it is known that Ali(RA) wasn't able to provide any help to Prophet like Harun(AS) did to Musa(AS) when he was given Prophethood. At that time Ali(RA) wasn't someone who would deliver the message of Islam to people, nor was knowledge sought by the Muslims through him, considering him to be a door of knowledge.

Quote
Mariam (as) and Talut (as) are both chosen but not Prophets. Not being a Prophet would not mean he is not a chosen one.  Being chosen in the sense of being specially chosen by God meant you were of an exalted station. At any rate, what I mean is that Mariam (as) was an exalted person by God, towering above normal people. The same can would be true of Ali having the position to Mohammad as Harun to Musa, as Harun was a trial of being an exalted person towering above normal people alongside Musa.
This point has been perfectly dealt by Hani, so i'll skip


Quote
And the 12 Naqeebs weren't the ones who broke the covenant, it was referring to Bani-Israel who broke the covenant, as is obvious as then it refers to the present one among them and says words about them.
You are misinformed, they along with their 7 chiefs along with their tribes  broke the covenant.  Refer these two Tafaseer:

Quote
(Allah made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel) the acknowledgement of the Children of Israel in the Torah of Muhammad, that they shall worship none except Allah and that they shall not ascribe partners to Him (and We raised among them twelve chieftains) 12 messengers; and it is said: 12 kings, a king to each tribe: (and Allah said) to these kings: (Lo! I am with you) I will help you. (If you establish worship) if you establish the prayer which has been made obligatory upon you (and pay the poor-due) from your wealth, (and believe in) acknowledge and accept (My messengers) who are sent to you (and support them) and assist them with the sword against the enemy, (and lend unto Allah a kindly loan) genuinely from your heart, (surely I shall remit your sins) other than the enormities, (and surely I shall bring you into Gardens beneath which) beneath its trees and habitations (rivers) rivers of water, milk, wine and honey (flow. Whoso among you disbelieveth after this) after accepting and acknowledging the covenant (will go astray from a plain road) such a person has erred from the road of guidance. Nonetheless, they disbelieved except five of them. Allah then explained the punishment of those who had disbelieved, saying: (And because of their) i.e. the kings (breaking their covenant, We have cursed them) We punished them through imposing the capitation tax upon them (and made hard) and lightless (their hearts. ( Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs (5:12-13).

God had made a covenant with the Children of Israel, for what will be mentioned shortly, and We raised up (there is a shift of address away from the third [to the first] person) from among them twelve leaders, from each tribe one leader, to be responsible for his people’s fulfilment of the covenant, as a way of binding them [to it]. And God said, to them: ‘I am with you, helping and assisting. Surely if (la-in, the lām is for oaths) you establish the prayer, and pay the alms, and believe in My messengers and succour them, help them, and lend to God a goodly loan, by expending in His way, I will absolve you of your evil deeds, and I will admit you to gardens underneath which rivers flow. So whoever of you disbelieves after that, covenant, surely he has strayed from the right way’, he has erred from the path to Paradise (al-sawā’ originally means ‘the middle way’). And they broke the covenant.(tafseer jalalayn 5:12)
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 10:30:43 PM by Aba AbdAllah »

Rationalist

From what I know the 12 Chiefs were chosen by the people. They were not divinely appointed imams.

Hani

Not only that bro aba Abdillah, but there's load of differences between `Ali's case and Talout's one. Banu Isra'il had two dominant families, one family contained prophets and the other family contained kings, when Talout was chosen the people were shocked because he was neither from the family of Prophets (Musa's lineage) nor from the family of kings. Talout was a sign by the Prophet of that time to prove his own prophet-hood, the people doubted the man's prophet-hood so they asked him for a sign and a leader to lead them into battle, so he told them that God chose this man and made his sign the chest of prophetic-relics. After the long battles ended, Talout was never heard from again and the prophet-hood was transferred from Sham`oun (or Shamu'eel) to Dawoud (as).
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Furkan

Thank you Hani.
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Hani

Additional note:

Regarding the verse where Musa (as) says:

{And appoint for me a minister from my family - Aaron, my brother. - Increase through him my strength - And let him share my task} [20:29-32]

The word "Wazir" is translated to "minister", and this translation is not accurate, if you refer to Tafsir al-Tabari, the word Wazir is from Mu'azarah or support, not a minister in the sense of how in our days a president has a bunch of ministers under him. So the correct translation is {And appoint for me a supporter from my family}. This is quite obvious as Musa (as) didn't need any ministers to give him advice, he had divine guidance, but he needed henchmen and supporters to help him and increase his strength and share a portion of the burden.

I thought you guys should know this, so anytime you see a Hadith stating "And make `Ali my vizier" what he means is "my supporter".
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Optimus Prime

review my book on Abu Bakr.

Salaams, brother.

I have, and I used the Control + Find functionality and each time I searched for "Ibrahim" it was someone else or the narration was just comparing Abu Bakr's (RA) mercy to Ibrahim (AS).

Ibn Yahya

if this was the place of Harun to Musa meant, it would not make sense to include Prophethood in that. The "except there is no Prophet after me" showed the place of Harun to Musa included Prophethood and hence was more then simply temporary leadership.

He said this because Harun was one of the Prophets after Musa. This was clarification. You're conjecture is very weak.

Ibn Yahya

Many Prophets weren't mentioned in the Qur'an. But it is clear from Ahadith that Yusha ibn Nun was the successor of Musa. So you're whole argument is exceedingly illogical and silly. Yusha ironically bore a similar relation to Moses as Abu Bakr did to the Prophet, as he was from Bene Ephraim. You're bringing up of Talut is very odd because he was not an infallible, rather he was a just king. Nor was he the successor of Musa, or any prophet for that matter. He was just a Political ruler. This brings me to the elephant in the room which is that the leaders that were appointed in the Qur'an were political. Whereas only 3 of the Imams had any kind of Hukm whatsoever. So you cannot use that as proof for your imams as these rulers seem to only have a political role, rather than the clerical, spiritual, non-political roles the Imams seemed to of had. I don't know about the 12 rulers of Bani Isra'il but I do know they weren't successors of prophets, or infallible, or had any role like the Imams did.

Khaled

Anyone else concerned for Link?  I haven't seen him in a while, إن شاء الله everything is ok with him
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
7 Replies
7056 Views
Last post August 02, 2017, 08:29:23 PM
by Ebn Hussein
4 Replies
1189 Views
Last post October 13, 2020, 06:02:23 PM
by Soccer
0 Replies
588 Views
Last post August 24, 2021, 07:51:55 PM
by Soccer
0 Replies
262 Views
Last post May 17, 2022, 02:29:36 AM
by Soccer