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Place of Harun hadith along with thaqalain/alimawla prove Ahlulbayt Authority.

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Link

When it comes to what is meant by "thaqalain" and putting Ahlulbayt side by side with Quran as to what the Prophet is leaving us, I think it's clear enough for who wants to sincerely know the truth.  However, if people look for a way out they can interpret things from other then their intended meanings.

One place that this cannot be done however is manzilat Harun. Sunnis often say this meant only with regards to the place Harun had with Musa when Musa went to meet God in forty days (30 extended to 40).

However, what would not make sense, would for the Prophet to include the station of Nubuwa in that. If he includes the station of Nubuwa in that, it meant something more then simply that one time role he had.

It would mean all other stations Harun had with Musa was included in the statement of what Harun place with Musa.

Therefore this is clear that all other roles he had with respect to Musa, Ali had with Mohammad. One objection can be had with respect to widening of the chest of Musa and lifting the constriction on his tongue, as Harun had that. I think it can be interpreted that the tongue of Harun was higher at conveying some truths, and Musa felt that with Harun, his words can be more easily understood.

In the same way, Ali (as) is said (I know albeit weak hadiths according to most scholars and only authentic or hassan according to a few) the door to the house of wisdom or the gate to the city of knowledge. This role he would of had during the lifetime of Mohammad (saw).

We have hadiths that the inshirah to Mohammad (saw) was through Ali (as). So this objection holds no ground but in fact expands the role of Ali as being the door to the house of wisdom.

The difference was Harun (as) also had a revelation from Allah and conveyed such revelation on behalf of God teaching the people.

Ali would also have the role of being a chosen leader by God, having authority of God over the people, and being a partner with Mohammad's affair in the religion and associated in his affair.

Now this clearly shows what is meant by "Ali Mawla" then would be Master/Authority as appointing his successor to all generations to come in clear manner was surely upon that day, and that this emphasizing what is meant by his family being the 2nd of two weighty things left by the Prophet.

This shows his family is too such authorities, and what is meant by their thaqal, is Ali's Wilayah.

Together the manzilat Harun along side Ali Mawla leaves no doubt that thaqal of Ahlulbayt (as) is their Wilayah of guidance.

Another objection is that why didn't Rasool mention Yushua? There can be several reasons for this.

1) Yushua was not mentioned in Quran.
2) Harun is the alwa to successorship of Musa, such that, if he outlives Musa he would succeed him.
3) Harun was by which the knot of the tongue of Musa was lifted and his chest expanded, and this role he had DURING the life of Musa, Mohammad wanted to emphasize Ali had that too which was the role he had as the door to the house of wisdom.
4) So it kills more then one bird in one stone.
5) Allah and Rasool knew the deniers of the manzilah would convey but interpret illogically, and hence, this was an appropriate thing to mention and safeguard Ali's Role.


Objection not being a Nabi includes not being a divine leaders.

Reply: We see Talut as a divinely appointed leader that was not a Prophet. We also read about twelve Chiefs appointed on Bani-Israel.

Wallahu Alim.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 11:13:03 PM by Link »
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Farid

See context.

Link

I know sunni argument, they say it refers to being temporary representative in Tabuk in the same way Harun took place of Musa temporarily when Musa was away. But as I stated, if this was the place of Harun to Musa meant, it would not make sense to include Prophethood in that. The "except there is no Prophet after me" showed the place of Harun to Musa included Prophethood and hence was more then simply temporary leadership. Please look at the argument and respond to it.

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Khaled

I know sunni argument, they say it refers to being temporary representative in Tabuk in the same way Harun took place of Musa temporarily when Musa was away. But as I stated, if this was the place of Harun to Musa meant, it would not make sense to include Prophethood in that. The "except there is no Prophet after me" showed the place of Harun to Musa included Prophethood and hence was more then simply temporary leadership. Please look at the argument and respond to it.

It can't mean anything more than temporary leadership because thats all Haroon عليه السلام ever had.  He died before Musa عليه السلام, and therefore the only thing it can possibly mean is temporary leadership.  For your argument to make sense, the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم would've had to say, "You are in the position of Sulayman to David" عليهما السلام
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 01:18:52 AM by Khaled »
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Link

The Sulaiman inheriting Dawood would only negate the issue of Yushua not being mentioned in the Quran. However, the following remains standing:
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2) Harun is the alwa to successorship of Musa, such that, if he outlives Musa he would succeed him.
3) Harun was by which the knot of the tongue of Musa was lifted and his chest expanded, and this role he had DURING the life of Musa, Mohammad wanted to emphasize Ali had that too which was the role he had as the door to the house of wisdom.
4) So it kills more then one bird in one stone.
5) Allah and Rasool knew the deniers of the manzilah would convey but interpret illogically, and hence, this was an appropriate thing to mention and safeguard Ali's Role.

Furthermore your statement that Harun was only temporary leader can be said about every Prophet. They are only on earth temporarily. But we see in Quran Harun is such that he is by which the knot of Musa is untied and Musa's breast expanded meaning the teachings on the tongue of Harun were important to Bani-Israel.   He was the key to understanding the message of Musa such that without Harun, Musa felt his tongue didn't convey what was in his heart of the truth and his breast was constricted. And we similarly Ali is the door to the house of wisdom.

Moreover, Harun was like Adam to be recognized and loved as one of God's exalted ones, and hence, was a trial to humanity like all God's Prophets are.

This is a position he has as God's Chosen One.

Moreover, Harun's leadership was linked to God's Wilayah.

So pardon me, but, what do you mean all he had was temporary leadership? Isn't this case of Dawood and Sulaiman as well. They were temporary leaders?

Does it mean there words are not binding authority from God? Of course not. Does it mean their leadership is like leadership of other people? Of course not.

And Harun's place with Musa was such that he would be the one to take his place in his absence. The same is true of Ali. So this shows beyond doubt Ali is his first successor.


« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 02:36:28 AM by Link »
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Hadrami

See context.

Look at the shia narration Husayn found a while ago. Ali RA said that al-Ashtar was to him as Ali was to Rasul Allah shallallahu alaihi wasallam.

Let's see if any 12ers will ignore the context & accept they followed the wrong imam. It should be al-Ashtar all along :D

http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/%27ali-%28ra%29%27s-successor-was-maalik-al-ashtar/

Furkan

LOL, yes that just destroys shiism.
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Link

Instead of looking for adhoc arguments, I am still looking for my post to be addressed, why did the Prophet mention "except that there is no Prophet after me" if the position of Harun being described didn't included Prophethood? Please think.

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Aba AbdAllah

Harun(AS) was the brother of Musa(AS) whom he appointed as care taker over his people (temporarily) in his absence and He was a Prophet.

Ali(RA) was the brother of Muhammad(SAW) whom he appointed as care taker over his people (temporarily) in his absence but He wasn't a Prophet.

Since Prophet(saw) said the Ali's position resembled the position of Harun(AS), he went ahead to mention the major difference, which was of Prophethood.

The benefit from it is that, it closed the doors for anyone to take Ali an equal of Prophet and it can even be used to prove that Ali didn't enjoin unconditional authority in that occasion, like a Prophet would.


Link

Mariam [as] was a chosen a person, yet not a Prophet. As the exception was not made "except that there is no chosen person after me", we can conclude that then Ali was chosen.

Talut [as] was a chosen leader, yet not a Prophet. As the exception was not made "except that there is no chosen leader after me", we can conclude Ali was a chosen leader. The 12 chiefs of bani-Israel were also non-Prophet chosen leaders.

Harun (as) was by which Musa (as) breast got expanded and the knot on his tongue lifted as Harun (as) was better at speech (regarding the higher truths which Musa felt he couldn't convey as well) and hence was the DOOR to understanding the wisdom of Musa, and his revelation was the door to the interior of the religion and the high knowledge.

Ali (as) was also then the door to the house of wisdom (Mohammad (saw)) but was not a Prophet and there is an allusion to him in Suratal Inshira coupled with Musa's prayer through out the Quran, and also correspondence particular that of Suratal Taha with "did we not raise your mention".

Harun (as) was such that he would take the place of Musa (as) in his absence. Ali (as) would be such that he takes the place of Mohammad (saw) in his absence.

Harun (as) had total guidance from God and was to be followed with Musa (as) "...and they who follow you both shall be victorious".

Harun (as) had to recognized as God's Chosen one along side recognizing Musa (as) "Lord of Harun and Musa". The same is true of Ali (as). (Mariam (as) is chosen, Talut (as) is chosen, and both are not Prophets).

In other words, not being a Prophet doesn't negate all these other stations Harun (as) had with Musa (as).

This hadith beyond doubt proves the divinely appointed position of Ali (as) and proves he is the one to take the place of Musa (as) in his absence (including death).

If Harun had Prophethood when taking Musa's place in his absence, then Harun had all these other positions as well in that absence, in which Mohammad didn't make exceptions to, but obviously included that Ali has with respect to him.



« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 02:33:38 PM by Link »
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Khaled

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The Sulaiman inheriting Dawood would only negate the issue of Yushua not being mentioned in the Quran. However, the following remains standing:

No, that’s not the only thing it negates, in fact that wasn’t even what I was trying to refute.

I was refuting the notion that this implies Ali رضي الله عنه is the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم’s successor because it was a temporary leadership position.  If he عليه الصلاة والسلام was going to use this as some sort of appointment of that Ali was supposed to succeed him, then he would’ve used the Sulayman/Dawood عليهما السلام example.

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Harun is the alwa to successorship of Musa, such that, if he outlives Musa he would succeed him.

But that’s not what happened is it.  There’s no need to use such an example when a much better one exists and wouldn’t cause any doubts.

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Harun was by which the knot of the tongue of Musa was lifted and his chest expanded, and this role he had DURING the life of Musa, Mohammad wanted to emphasize Ali had that too which was the role he had as the door to the house of wisdom.

As a side point, I’m always shocked by how easily Shi’is use the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم’s first name so loosely when talking about him, خير إن شاء الله.  In any case, how do you know that’s what the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم wanted?  When was it that Ali رضي الله عنه was used as to “lift the knot of the tongue” and “expand the chest” of the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم “DURING HIS LIFETIME?” Can’t we use examples of other Sahaba aiding the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم during his lifetime as example that they were like Harun was to Musa عليهما السلام?  One example that comes to mind is the story of Um Salama رضي الله عنها at the treaty of Hudaybiyah.
 
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5) Allah and Rasool knew the deniers of the manzilah would convey but interpret illogically, and hence, this was an appropriate thing to mention and safeguard Ali's Role.

Again, this is just utter speculation on your part basically implying you know what Allah and His Messenger want.  Again, I point to you time and time again that I disagree with your logic, and so do the majority of Muslim scholars; even the most extreme of Sufis who attribute themselves to Ali رضي الله عنه don’t understand that hadeeth in that way.

Furthermore, you keep pulling out the logic card.  Yet I want to know, according to which rules of logic?  I don’t see you following any rules that I remember learning about neither from the Greeks nor the Muslim scholars.

Finally, if this hadeeth leads to several different opinions, then it cannot be an Asl for the religion.  I can’t quote “The Fire, they are exposed to it, morning and afternoon.” (40:46) as explicit evidence for the Punishment of the Grave and make it a basis for this religion because there are several different interpretations possible.  This is one of the major disagreements between the mainstream Muslims scholars and those of the Baatini sects such as the Twelvers and the Ismailiyah, for the mainstream scholars, a Nass is something that can’t be interpreted in two different ways; this is why none of the Twelver evidences are considered Nusoos in the Usooli sense.

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Furthermore your statement that Harun was only temporary leader can be said about every Prophet. They are only on earth temporarily. But we see in Quran Harun is such that he is by which the knot of Musa is untied and Musa's breast expanded meaning the teachings on the tongue of Harun were important to Bani-Israel.   He was the key to understanding the message of Musa such that without Harun, Musa felt his tongue didn't convey what was in his heart of the truth and his breast was constricted. And we similarly Ali is the door to the house of wisdom.

Again, your logic doesn’t add up; but this is really just a restatement of what you said earlier.  However, your statement that the statement that the Prophet’s are temporary leaders is incorrect because the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم is this Ummah’s leader in religious matters until the Day of Judgement.  Therefore, unless you show us how Ali رضي الله عنه has that exclusive role, your argument will have been shown to be false.  Also, don’t forget that you must prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt because this is so important that it caused the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم to use the Harun/Musa example instead of the Sulayman/Dawood example, which would’ve been more helpful for your theologly.

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So pardon me, but, what do you mean all he had was temporary leadership? Isn't this case of Dawood and Sulaiman as well. They were temporary leaders?

No, I don’t think you are being genuine here, you know full well that what we mean is that this was temporary during the life of the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم.  Harun عليه السلام was also temporarily in charge until Musa عليه السلام returned, unlike Sulayman عليه السلام who was in charge after Dawood عليه السلام.  I’m really surprised you wanted me to explain that to you.

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Does it mean there words are not binding authority from God? Of course not. Does it mean their leadership is like leadership of other people? Of course not.

Exactly, this is why the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم’s leadership is not temporary despite what you implied بارك الله فيك.

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And Harun's place with Musa was such that he would be the one to take his place in his absence. The same is true of Ali. So this shows beyond doubt Ali is his first successor.
Yet the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم said, “If you don’t find me go to Abu Bakr.” And countless incidents from the Seerah show that it was not always true of Ali رضي الله عنه.  Obviously he is one of the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم’s main deputies, but he was not the only one.  However, based on your logic, the only thing this would show beyond a shadow of a doubt is that Abu Bakr is his first successor.  Remember, this is called ilzaam in Islamic logic, I do not agree with your logic; I’m just showing the logical conclusion of your thought.

والله أعلم
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Link

Sulaiman inheriting Dawood, is more like one of the later Imams inheriting a later Imam. Musa and Harun were founding Leaders of their nation. This is one point.

Some points to mention, Rasool according to our beliefs stated Ali is his successor explicitly and even named all the 12 Imams to the people on occasions.  However Rasool realizes that just like in the past how books got corrupted, his teachings can get corrupted, and just how it says about Christians, they forgot a portion of what they were revealed, the same can happen to this nation. Therefore, in wisdom, he stated things in a manner that some would be transmitted by those who oppose the divine leadership of his family, and those who accept it would narrate things not narrated by those who opposed it.

The issue, is, having wisdom in saying this hadith on that occassion, it's been transmitted by opponents and supporters of the divine leadership of Ali a like.

The issue is if he only states things with no room for denial like, "Ali is my successor" as in clear daylight in Shia hadiths or names all 12 Imams...then he would fail to protect the message, because only those who accept the station would narrate it.

Therefore this was a wisdom in which Allah and his Messenger knew, people would take "position of Harun to Musa" to be just about temporary leadership.

However we see in Quran, Harun's teachings were important and that he was to be followed ALONGSIDE Musa. The Quran emphasized who followed them both would be the uppermost and we see it was by him that the knot of tongue of Musa was lifted, hence, he was the key to understanding the words of Musa and teachings of Musa.

His leadership was a divine leadership DURING the lifetime of Musa. As well, in the absence of Musa, the person to take his place is Harun in active social leadership.

Therefore we see that the same is true of Ali. As Harun was so special to the Musa that Musa wanted Harun to strengthen his back and be a partner in his affair, it was more appropriate to mention this relationship as it was reaction to Ali saying "Do you leave me with women and children..." (and some people were belittling him because of that, and hence Ali went to Rasool to vindicate him in front of the people).

This shows you are the one like Harun, Harun was by which Musa's knot was lift, he was by which his back was strengthened, he was by which his tongue reached out to the people, he was by which his chest was expanded, and Ali was by which the knot of Mohammad's tongue was lifted, he was by which his back was stengthered, and he was by which his tongue reached out to the people as shown by being the door to the house of wisdom or gate to the knowledge. So is he not pleased with this? Being the foremost important person in the mission of the Rasool, the partner in his affair.

And yes this includes the position of being the one who would take place of Mohammad in his absence, be it if Mohammad left for closeness to God like Musa or that he dies...and this is obvious.

And this includes being the a chosen leader appointed by God that was followed by believers during time of Mohammad. And these includes being an authority of God and door to the teachings of Mohammad during and after the lifetime of Mohammad.

And this is beyond doubt.

And as I mentioned, every Prophet dies, but their teachings are to be adhered to. The same is true of Harun, his teachings are to be adhered to after his death, as he is a Prophet.

Just like Dawood dies, and someone inherits his leadership, then so what if Harun died, he was still appointed leader by God and CHOSEN one.

Do you even accept Ali as a chosen one? If you do, then you can see by the Talut verses that such are appointed as leaders to humanity and given God's authority.

You are denying the clear meaning. Allah and his Messenger knew the perfect words to say, such that the obstinate would look for illogical conclusions, like "it only meant this temporal leadership" except the Prophet mentioned "except there is no Prophet after me" showing being a Prophet with Musa was part of the position of Harun being discussed which means it includes him being a chosen exalted one to be recognized and loved, being a Leader to be followed, being a Wazeer of Musa by God's appointment, and being the one takes the place of Musa in his absence as long as Harun is alive, that was his position.

So subhanallah,  the dark forces are indeed enemies of Auli-Mohammad blinding people'd hearts by their spiritual attacks to both clear designations of them in the Sunnah and in the Quran.  But God then makes clear his signs so who prefers blindness and the waswas of Satan and his forces, becomes worthy of God's wrath.

« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 01:08:49 AM by Link »
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Khaled

So subhanallah,  the dark forces are indeed enemies of Auli-Mohammad blinding people'd hearts by their spiritual attacks to both clear designations of them in the Sunnah and in the Quran.  But God then makes clear his signs so who prefers blindness and the waswas of Satan and his forces, becomes worthy of God's wrath.

Unfortunately, you didn't address one point I made and instead wrote a rant and therefore I'm not going to respond to it.  What's even more unfortunate however, is how quick you are to accuse me of being an enemy of Aal Muhammad and that I prefer blindness.  This is clear takfeer والى الله المشتكى.
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Link

I didn't state you preferred blindness. And when I am talking about dark forces, I am talking about the Sayateen of Jinn and humans, not you. They attack the hearts, and veil people from Auli-Mohammad, that no matter how clear the matter is proven in Quran or Sunnah, they cannot see. God knows the one who then understands and perceives their position but then prefers blindness to sight, "And as for Ad, we guided them but they preferred blindness to sight...", I am not saying you don't either.  I don't know. However, many people are quite aware of their holy position but prefer to disbelieve while the hearts are not at all heedless to it. And God warns out of grace and mercy. Wa Subhanallah, on how clear Auli-Mohammad are in the Quran but how veiled they are by the dark jibt (seher) on people's hearts.



Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Furkan

If I would give the Quran to a non-muslim whose arabic is perfect, and ask him to read the whole quran 30 times. Do you really think he would conclude that there is an appointment of leadership for Ahlul Bayt in Quran?

Give me a break, if this creed of shiism is so clear, then how come no one of the salaf in the whole muslim world objected to authentic sunni islam? Don't tell me the khulafa rashideen, Muawiya etc paid them money, cuz you will make your sect just look weak.
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Link

If I would give the Quran to a non-muslim whose arabic is perfect, and ask him to read the whole quran 30 times. Do you really think he would conclude that there is an appointment of leadership for Ahlul Bayt in Quran?

If they sought refuge in God, reflected with their minds and hearts as it ought to be done with regards to the book, and defeated the Satanic locks, then yes, they would conclude there is an appointment of leadership of Ahlulbayt in Quran and it would be of it's clear signs to them.

The problem is Sayateen cast upon the hearts to prevent people from perceiving the clear signs and the blessed recitation. However with enough reflection while with a heart that is present, the Satanic recitations can be defeated, and the blessed recitations followed.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 03:23:09 AM by Link »
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Furkan

What's the chance of this quote below being influenced by shaytaan?

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If they sought refuge in God, reflected with their minds and hearts as it ought to be done with regards to the book, and defeated the Satanic locks, then yes, they would conclude there is an appointment of leadership of Ahlulbayt in Quran and it would be of it's clear signs to them.

The problem is Sayateen cast upon the hearts to prevent people from perceiving the clear signs and the blessed recitation. However with enough reflection while with a heart that is present, the Satanic recitations can be defeated, and the blessed recitations followed.

Brother, look the fact that no ordinair sunni who never heard of any sect like shiism, ever can come up with this concept of imamah is just enough. Naql and Aql are both strong elements which guide us.

In case of Naql, the concept of wilaya/imamah of shiism is absent. On the other hand, there are ayat which show that wahi ends with Rasulullah (saw) thus it's very clear nothing can come after that.

In case of Aql, I will ask you: If Allah appointed an infallible imam, since fallibles can't guide themselves, then where is this imam of yours? It just doesn't make sense.

Conclusion: this whole concept contradicts Naql and Aql in every way unless you want to cling to something which isn't clear. I prefer basing my deen upon clear cut facts and evidences not some dreams, weird puzzles, etc
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Hadrami

Furkan, unfortunately the force of darkness makes people unable to apply logic on themselves first :D

We always need infallibles to guide us but....wait hes not around for 1100 years. So i guess, this doctrine only applies for the first 250+ yrs. Thats logic :D

Hani

There's an authentic narration where the Prophet (saw) likens Abu Bakr and `Umar to Ibrahim and `Isa peace be upon them. We're all in agreement that Ibrahim and `Isa are better than Haroun (as)

: p

Let's see what you wrote there:

((Sulaiman inheriting Dawood, is more like one of the later Imams inheriting a later Imam. Musa and Harun were founding Leaders of their nation. This is one point.))

Except that Haroun (as) never inherited Musa (as) nor did he succeed him after his death, that was Yusha` bin Noun (as). Therefore, `Ali was not mean to either inherit nor succeed. Heck even in your books it says that Yusha` was the Wasi of Musa (as) and here's an example from Tafsir al-Qummi:

وأودعه يوشع وصيه

[And Musa offered it [the Tabout] to his Wasi Yusha`.]

((Some points to mention, Rasool according to our beliefs stated Ali is his successor explicitly and even named all the 12 Imams to the people on occasions.))

This never happened but if you like to place your faith in the hands of Qummis and abandon what the entire nation narrated because it disagrees with the Qummies then that's a very unwise decision.

((The issue is if he only states things with no room for denial like, "Ali is my successor" as in clear daylight in Shia hadiths or names all 12 Imams...then he would fail to protect the message, because only those who accept the station would narrate it.))

According to your Hadith books everybody narrated it, this includes `Umar, abu Hurayrah, Anas etc... In other words your Qummi narrators are liars who make stuff up and attribute it to everybody.

((However we see in Quran, Harun's teachings were important and that he was to be followed ALONGSIDE Musa.))

Who told you that `Ali is exactly like Haroun (as) in every single aspect? We believe that the likeness between Haroun (as) and `Ali is limited to a few basic matters related to the incident of Tabouk, no sane man would go and generalize by saying that `Ali is exactly like Haroun (as) because he isn't nor does the Arabic language imply this nor does the CLEAR context of that narration imply this. This is a silly generalization caused by the Ghuluw of your sect.


((And yes this includes the position of being the one who would take place of Mohammad in his absence, be it if Mohammad left for closeness to God like Musa or that he dies...and this is obvious.))

This is refuted because it is Mutawatir that our Prophet (saw) would appoint different people to take his place when he travels and charges them with authority. In fact, he only gave `Ali this position once during Tabouk.

((Do you even accept Ali as a chosen one? If you do, then you can see by the Talut verses that such are appointed as leaders to humanity and given God's authority.))

Except that Talout was only chosen because the people asked their Prophet (as) to ask Allah to appoint a man to lead them into battle. Allah didn't appoint him just like that, if the people never asked for a military leader he wouldn't have been appointed. Similarly, our Prophet (saw) would appoint many military leaders during his life, such as `Amr ibn al-`Aas. I add, that Talout became jealous of Dawoud (as) and attempted to kill him. Nowhere was it reported that Talout succeeded the Prophet of his time, he simply led people into battle during the Prophet-hood of another man, then Dawoud (as) became a Prophet during the battle when he killed Jalout.

According to your Imam in Tafsir al-Qummi, this is because for banu Isra'il, prophet-hood was in one household and kingdom was in another household, so their kings were not from the same family as their prophets:

قال حدثني أبي عن النضر بن سويد عن يحيى الحلبي عن هارون بن خارجة عن أبي بصير عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام إن بني إسرائيل بعد موسى عليه السلام عملوا المعاصي وغيروا دين الله وعتوا عن أمر ربهم، وكان فيهم نبي يأمرهم وينهاهم فلم يطيعوه، وروي أنه أرميا النبي، فسلط الله عليهم جالوت، وهو من القبط فأذلهم وقتل رجالهم وأخرجهم من ديارهم وأموالهم واستعبد نساء‌هم، ففزعوا إلى نبيهم وقالوا سل الله أن يبعث لنا ملكاً نقاتل في سبيل الله، وكانت النبوة في بني إسرائيل في بيت والملك والسلطان في بيت آخر لم يجمع الله لهم الملك والنبوة في بيت واحد

And it was narrated by al-Sadiq in al-`Ayyashi and al-Majma` that in their time the king was the one whose job was to lead the armies while the Prophet would give him legitimacy and prophesy to him and reveal to him whatever came from his Lord.
المجمع والعياشي عن الصادق عليه السلام قال كان الملك في ذلك الزمان هو الذي يسير بالجنود والنبي يقيم له أمره وينبئه بالخبر من عند ربه

In other words, Talout was not a successor nor was he different from any military leader our Prophet (saw) chose during his life such as Usamah and Abu Bakr and Khalid.


u say:
((such that the obstinate would look for illogical conclusions, like "it only meant this temporal leadership" except the Prophet mentioned "except there is no Prophet after me"))

We say: He said this only so that no one may misunderstand and raise `Ali to a position of prophet-hood. This doesn't imply that `Ali was chosen to succeed.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Optimus Prime

Quote
There's an authentic narration where the Prophet (saw) likens Abu Bakr and `Umar to Ibrahim and `Isa peace be upon them. We're all in agreement that Ibrahim and `Isa are better than Haroun (as)

Salaams brother Hani.

Can you quote the narration, please?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 02:26:28 PM by Imam Ali »

 

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