TwelverShia.net Forum
Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Imamah-Ghaybah => Topic started by: Link on June 11, 2015, 11:08:40 PM
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When it comes to what is meant by "thaqalain" and putting Ahlulbayt side by side with Quran as to what the Prophet is leaving us, I think it's clear enough for who wants to sincerely know the truth. However, if people look for a way out they can interpret things from other then their intended meanings.
One place that this cannot be done however is manzilat Harun. Sunnis often say this meant only with regards to the place Harun had with Musa when Musa went to meet God in forty days (30 extended to 40).
However, what would not make sense, would for the Prophet to include the station of Nubuwa in that. If he includes the station of Nubuwa in that, it meant something more then simply that one time role he had.
It would mean all other stations Harun had with Musa was included in the statement of what Harun place with Musa.
Therefore this is clear that all other roles he had with respect to Musa, Ali had with Mohammad. One objection can be had with respect to widening of the chest of Musa and lifting the constriction on his tongue, as Harun had that. I think it can be interpreted that the tongue of Harun was higher at conveying some truths, and Musa felt that with Harun, his words can be more easily understood.
In the same way, Ali (as) is said (I know albeit weak hadiths according to most scholars and only authentic or hassan according to a few) the door to the house of wisdom or the gate to the city of knowledge. This role he would of had during the lifetime of Mohammad (saw).
We have hadiths that the inshirah to Mohammad (saw) was through Ali (as). So this objection holds no ground but in fact expands the role of Ali as being the door to the house of wisdom.
The difference was Harun (as) also had a revelation from Allah and conveyed such revelation on behalf of God teaching the people.
Ali would also have the role of being a chosen leader by God, having authority of God over the people, and being a partner with Mohammad's affair in the religion and associated in his affair.
Now this clearly shows what is meant by "Ali Mawla" then would be Master/Authority as appointing his successor to all generations to come in clear manner was surely upon that day, and that this emphasizing what is meant by his family being the 2nd of two weighty things left by the Prophet.
This shows his family is too such authorities, and what is meant by their thaqal, is Ali's Wilayah.
Together the manzilat Harun along side Ali Mawla leaves no doubt that thaqal of Ahlulbayt (as) is their Wilayah of guidance.
Another objection is that why didn't Rasool mention Yushua? There can be several reasons for this.
1) Yushua was not mentioned in Quran.
2) Harun is the alwa to successorship of Musa, such that, if he outlives Musa he would succeed him.
3) Harun was by which the knot of the tongue of Musa was lifted and his chest expanded, and this role he had DURING the life of Musa, Mohammad wanted to emphasize Ali had that too which was the role he had as the door to the house of wisdom.
4) So it kills more then one bird in one stone.
5) Allah and Rasool knew the deniers of the manzilah would convey but interpret illogically, and hence, this was an appropriate thing to mention and safeguard Ali's Role.
Objection not being a Nabi includes not being a divine leaders.
Reply: We see Talut as a divinely appointed leader that was not a Prophet. We also read about twelve Chiefs appointed on Bani-Israel.
Wallahu Alim.
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See context.
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I know sunni argument, they say it refers to being temporary representative in Tabuk in the same way Harun took place of Musa temporarily when Musa was away. But as I stated, if this was the place of Harun to Musa meant, it would not make sense to include Prophethood in that. The "except there is no Prophet after me" showed the place of Harun to Musa included Prophethood and hence was more then simply temporary leadership. Please look at the argument and respond to it.
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I know sunni argument, they say it refers to being temporary representative in Tabuk in the same way Harun took place of Musa temporarily when Musa was away. But as I stated, if this was the place of Harun to Musa meant, it would not make sense to include Prophethood in that. The "except there is no Prophet after me" showed the place of Harun to Musa included Prophethood and hence was more then simply temporary leadership. Please look at the argument and respond to it.
It can't mean anything more than temporary leadership because thats all Haroon عليه السلام ever had. He died before Musa عليه السلام, and therefore the only thing it can possibly mean is temporary leadership. For your argument to make sense, the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم would've had to say, "You are in the position of Sulayman to David" عليهما السلام
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The Sulaiman inheriting Dawood would only negate the issue of Yushua not being mentioned in the Quran. However, the following remains standing:
2) Harun is the alwa to successorship of Musa, such that, if he outlives Musa he would succeed him.
3) Harun was by which the knot of the tongue of Musa was lifted and his chest expanded, and this role he had DURING the life of Musa, Mohammad wanted to emphasize Ali had that too which was the role he had as the door to the house of wisdom.
4) So it kills more then one bird in one stone.
5) Allah and Rasool knew the deniers of the manzilah would convey but interpret illogically, and hence, this was an appropriate thing to mention and safeguard Ali's Role.
Furthermore your statement that Harun was only temporary leader can be said about every Prophet. They are only on earth temporarily. But we see in Quran Harun is such that he is by which the knot of Musa is untied and Musa's breast expanded meaning the teachings on the tongue of Harun were important to Bani-Israel. He was the key to understanding the message of Musa such that without Harun, Musa felt his tongue didn't convey what was in his heart of the truth and his breast was constricted. And we similarly Ali is the door to the house of wisdom.
Moreover, Harun was like Adam to be recognized and loved as one of God's exalted ones, and hence, was a trial to humanity like all God's Prophets are.
This is a position he has as God's Chosen One.
Moreover, Harun's leadership was linked to God's Wilayah.
So pardon me, but, what do you mean all he had was temporary leadership? Isn't this case of Dawood and Sulaiman as well. They were temporary leaders?
Does it mean there words are not binding authority from God? Of course not. Does it mean their leadership is like leadership of other people? Of course not.
And Harun's place with Musa was such that he would be the one to take his place in his absence. The same is true of Ali. So this shows beyond doubt Ali is his first successor.
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See context.
Look at the shia narration Husayn found a while ago. Ali RA said that al-Ashtar was to him as Ali was to Rasul Allah shallallahu alaihi wasallam.
Let's see if any 12ers will ignore the context & accept they followed the wrong imam. It should be al-Ashtar all along :D
http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/%27ali-%28ra%29%27s-successor-was-maalik-al-ashtar/
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LOL, yes that just destroys shiism.
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Instead of looking for adhoc arguments, I am still looking for my post to be addressed, why did the Prophet mention "except that there is no Prophet after me" if the position of Harun being described didn't included Prophethood? Please think.
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Harun(AS) was the brother of Musa(AS) whom he appointed as care taker over his people (temporarily) in his absence and He was a Prophet.
Ali(RA) was the brother of Muhammad(SAW) whom he appointed as care taker over his people (temporarily) in his absence but He wasn't a Prophet.
Since Prophet(saw) said the Ali's position resembled the position of Harun(AS), he went ahead to mention the major difference, which was of Prophethood.
The benefit from it is that, it closed the doors for anyone to take Ali an equal of Prophet and it can even be used to prove that Ali didn't enjoin unconditional authority in that occasion, like a Prophet would.
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Mariam [as] was a chosen a person, yet not a Prophet. As the exception was not made "except that there is no chosen person after me", we can conclude that then Ali was chosen.
Talut [as] was a chosen leader, yet not a Prophet. As the exception was not made "except that there is no chosen leader after me", we can conclude Ali was a chosen leader. The 12 chiefs of bani-Israel were also non-Prophet chosen leaders.
Harun (as) was by which Musa (as) breast got expanded and the knot on his tongue lifted as Harun (as) was better at speech (regarding the higher truths which Musa felt he couldn't convey as well) and hence was the DOOR to understanding the wisdom of Musa, and his revelation was the door to the interior of the religion and the high knowledge.
Ali (as) was also then the door to the house of wisdom (Mohammad (saw)) but was not a Prophet and there is an allusion to him in Suratal Inshira coupled with Musa's prayer through out the Quran, and also correspondence particular that of Suratal Taha with "did we not raise your mention".
Harun (as) was such that he would take the place of Musa (as) in his absence. Ali (as) would be such that he takes the place of Mohammad (saw) in his absence.
Harun (as) had total guidance from God and was to be followed with Musa (as) "...and they who follow you both shall be victorious".
Harun (as) had to recognized as God's Chosen one along side recognizing Musa (as) "Lord of Harun and Musa". The same is true of Ali (as). (Mariam (as) is chosen, Talut (as) is chosen, and both are not Prophets).
In other words, not being a Prophet doesn't negate all these other stations Harun (as) had with Musa (as).
This hadith beyond doubt proves the divinely appointed position of Ali (as) and proves he is the one to take the place of Musa (as) in his absence (including death).
If Harun had Prophethood when taking Musa's place in his absence, then Harun had all these other positions as well in that absence, in which Mohammad didn't make exceptions to, but obviously included that Ali has with respect to him.
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The Sulaiman inheriting Dawood would only negate the issue of Yushua not being mentioned in the Quran. However, the following remains standing:
No, that’s not the only thing it negates, in fact that wasn’t even what I was trying to refute.
I was refuting the notion that this implies Ali رضي الله عنه is the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم’s successor because it was a temporary leadership position. If he عليه الصلاة والسلام was going to use this as some sort of appointment of that Ali was supposed to succeed him, then he would’ve used the Sulayman/Dawood عليهما السلام example.
Harun is the alwa to successorship of Musa, such that, if he outlives Musa he would succeed him.
But that’s not what happened is it. There’s no need to use such an example when a much better one exists and wouldn’t cause any doubts.
Harun was by which the knot of the tongue of Musa was lifted and his chest expanded, and this role he had DURING the life of Musa, Mohammad wanted to emphasize Ali had that too which was the role he had as the door to the house of wisdom.
As a side point, I’m always shocked by how easily Shi’is use the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم’s first name so loosely when talking about him, خير إن شاء الله. In any case, how do you know that’s what the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم wanted? When was it that Ali رضي الله عنه was used as to “lift the knot of the tongue” and “expand the chest” of the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم “DURING HIS LIFETIME?” Can’t we use examples of other Sahaba aiding the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم during his lifetime as example that they were like Harun was to Musa عليهما السلام? One example that comes to mind is the story of Um Salama رضي الله عنها at the treaty of Hudaybiyah.
5) Allah and Rasool knew the deniers of the manzilah would convey but interpret illogically, and hence, this was an appropriate thing to mention and safeguard Ali's Role.
Again, this is just utter speculation on your part basically implying you know what Allah and His Messenger want. Again, I point to you time and time again that I disagree with your logic, and so do the majority of Muslim scholars; even the most extreme of Sufis who attribute themselves to Ali رضي الله عنه don’t understand that hadeeth in that way.
Furthermore, you keep pulling out the logic card. Yet I want to know, according to which rules of logic? I don’t see you following any rules that I remember learning about neither from the Greeks nor the Muslim scholars.
Finally, if this hadeeth leads to several different opinions, then it cannot be an Asl for the religion. I can’t quote “The Fire, they are exposed to it, morning and afternoon.” (40:46) as explicit evidence for the Punishment of the Grave and make it a basis for this religion because there are several different interpretations possible. This is one of the major disagreements between the mainstream Muslims scholars and those of the Baatini sects such as the Twelvers and the Ismailiyah, for the mainstream scholars, a Nass is something that can’t be interpreted in two different ways; this is why none of the Twelver evidences are considered Nusoos in the Usooli sense.
Furthermore your statement that Harun was only temporary leader can be said about every Prophet. They are only on earth temporarily. But we see in Quran Harun is such that he is by which the knot of Musa is untied and Musa's breast expanded meaning the teachings on the tongue of Harun were important to Bani-Israel. He was the key to understanding the message of Musa such that without Harun, Musa felt his tongue didn't convey what was in his heart of the truth and his breast was constricted. And we similarly Ali is the door to the house of wisdom.
Again, your logic doesn’t add up; but this is really just a restatement of what you said earlier. However, your statement that the statement that the Prophet’s are temporary leaders is incorrect because the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم is this Ummah’s leader in religious matters until the Day of Judgement. Therefore, unless you show us how Ali رضي الله عنه has that exclusive role, your argument will have been shown to be false. Also, don’t forget that you must prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt because this is so important that it caused the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم to use the Harun/Musa example instead of the Sulayman/Dawood example, which would’ve been more helpful for your theologly.
So pardon me, but, what do you mean all he had was temporary leadership? Isn't this case of Dawood and Sulaiman as well. They were temporary leaders?
No, I don’t think you are being genuine here, you know full well that what we mean is that this was temporary during the life of the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم. Harun عليه السلام was also temporarily in charge until Musa عليه السلام returned, unlike Sulayman عليه السلام who was in charge after Dawood عليه السلام. I’m really surprised you wanted me to explain that to you.
Does it mean there words are not binding authority from God? Of course not. Does it mean their leadership is like leadership of other people? Of course not.
Exactly, this is why the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم’s leadership is not temporary despite what you implied بارك الله فيك.
And Harun's place with Musa was such that he would be the one to take his place in his absence. The same is true of Ali. So this shows beyond doubt Ali is his first successor.
Yet the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم said, “If you don’t find me go to Abu Bakr.” And countless incidents from the Seerah show that it was not always true of Ali رضي الله عنه. Obviously he is one of the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم’s main deputies, but he was not the only one. However, based on your logic, the only thing this would show beyond a shadow of a doubt is that Abu Bakr is his first successor. Remember, this is called ilzaam in Islamic logic, I do not agree with your logic; I’m just showing the logical conclusion of your thought.
والله أعلم
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Sulaiman inheriting Dawood, is more like one of the later Imams inheriting a later Imam. Musa and Harun were founding Leaders of their nation. This is one point.
Some points to mention, Rasool according to our beliefs stated Ali is his successor explicitly and even named all the 12 Imams to the people on occasions. However Rasool realizes that just like in the past how books got corrupted, his teachings can get corrupted, and just how it says about Christians, they forgot a portion of what they were revealed, the same can happen to this nation. Therefore, in wisdom, he stated things in a manner that some would be transmitted by those who oppose the divine leadership of his family, and those who accept it would narrate things not narrated by those who opposed it.
The issue, is, having wisdom in saying this hadith on that occassion, it's been transmitted by opponents and supporters of the divine leadership of Ali a like.
The issue is if he only states things with no room for denial like, "Ali is my successor" as in clear daylight in Shia hadiths or names all 12 Imams...then he would fail to protect the message, because only those who accept the station would narrate it.
Therefore this was a wisdom in which Allah and his Messenger knew, people would take "position of Harun to Musa" to be just about temporary leadership.
However we see in Quran, Harun's teachings were important and that he was to be followed ALONGSIDE Musa. The Quran emphasized who followed them both would be the uppermost and we see it was by him that the knot of tongue of Musa was lifted, hence, he was the key to understanding the words of Musa and teachings of Musa.
His leadership was a divine leadership DURING the lifetime of Musa. As well, in the absence of Musa, the person to take his place is Harun in active social leadership.
Therefore we see that the same is true of Ali. As Harun was so special to the Musa that Musa wanted Harun to strengthen his back and be a partner in his affair, it was more appropriate to mention this relationship as it was reaction to Ali saying "Do you leave me with women and children..." (and some people were belittling him because of that, and hence Ali went to Rasool to vindicate him in front of the people).
This shows you are the one like Harun, Harun was by which Musa's knot was lift, he was by which his back was strengthened, he was by which his tongue reached out to the people, he was by which his chest was expanded, and Ali was by which the knot of Mohammad's tongue was lifted, he was by which his back was stengthered, and he was by which his tongue reached out to the people as shown by being the door to the house of wisdom or gate to the knowledge. So is he not pleased with this? Being the foremost important person in the mission of the Rasool, the partner in his affair.
And yes this includes the position of being the one who would take place of Mohammad in his absence, be it if Mohammad left for closeness to God like Musa or that he dies...and this is obvious.
And this includes being the a chosen leader appointed by God that was followed by believers during time of Mohammad. And these includes being an authority of God and door to the teachings of Mohammad during and after the lifetime of Mohammad.
And this is beyond doubt.
And as I mentioned, every Prophet dies, but their teachings are to be adhered to. The same is true of Harun, his teachings are to be adhered to after his death, as he is a Prophet.
Just like Dawood dies, and someone inherits his leadership, then so what if Harun died, he was still appointed leader by God and CHOSEN one.
Do you even accept Ali as a chosen one? If you do, then you can see by the Talut verses that such are appointed as leaders to humanity and given God's authority.
You are denying the clear meaning. Allah and his Messenger knew the perfect words to say, such that the obstinate would look for illogical conclusions, like "it only meant this temporal leadership" except the Prophet mentioned "except there is no Prophet after me" showing being a Prophet with Musa was part of the position of Harun being discussed which means it includes him being a chosen exalted one to be recognized and loved, being a Leader to be followed, being a Wazeer of Musa by God's appointment, and being the one takes the place of Musa in his absence as long as Harun is alive, that was his position.
So subhanallah, the dark forces are indeed enemies of Auli-Mohammad blinding people'd hearts by their spiritual attacks to both clear designations of them in the Sunnah and in the Quran. But God then makes clear his signs so who prefers blindness and the waswas of Satan and his forces, becomes worthy of God's wrath.
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So subhanallah, the dark forces are indeed enemies of Auli-Mohammad blinding people'd hearts by their spiritual attacks to both clear designations of them in the Sunnah and in the Quran. But God then makes clear his signs so who prefers blindness and the waswas of Satan and his forces, becomes worthy of God's wrath.
Unfortunately, you didn't address one point I made and instead wrote a rant and therefore I'm not going to respond to it. What's even more unfortunate however, is how quick you are to accuse me of being an enemy of Aal Muhammad and that I prefer blindness. This is clear takfeer والى الله المشتكى.
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I didn't state you preferred blindness. And when I am talking about dark forces, I am talking about the Sayateen of Jinn and humans, not you. They attack the hearts, and veil people from Auli-Mohammad, that no matter how clear the matter is proven in Quran or Sunnah, they cannot see. God knows the one who then understands and perceives their position but then prefers blindness to sight, "And as for Ad, we guided them but they preferred blindness to sight...", I am not saying you don't either. I don't know. However, many people are quite aware of their holy position but prefer to disbelieve while the hearts are not at all heedless to it. And God warns out of grace and mercy. Wa Subhanallah, on how clear Auli-Mohammad are in the Quran but how veiled they are by the dark jibt (seher) on people's hearts.
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If I would give the Quran to a non-muslim whose arabic is perfect, and ask him to read the whole quran 30 times. Do you really think he would conclude that there is an appointment of leadership for Ahlul Bayt in Quran?
Give me a break, if this creed of shiism is so clear, then how come no one of the salaf in the whole muslim world objected to authentic sunni islam? Don't tell me the khulafa rashideen, Muawiya etc paid them money, cuz you will make your sect just look weak.
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If I would give the Quran to a non-muslim whose arabic is perfect, and ask him to read the whole quran 30 times. Do you really think he would conclude that there is an appointment of leadership for Ahlul Bayt in Quran?
If they sought refuge in God, reflected with their minds and hearts as it ought to be done with regards to the book, and defeated the Satanic locks, then yes, they would conclude there is an appointment of leadership of Ahlulbayt in Quran and it would be of it's clear signs to them.
The problem is Sayateen cast upon the hearts to prevent people from perceiving the clear signs and the blessed recitation. However with enough reflection while with a heart that is present, the Satanic recitations can be defeated, and the blessed recitations followed.
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What's the chance of this quote below being influenced by shaytaan?
If they sought refuge in God, reflected with their minds and hearts as it ought to be done with regards to the book, and defeated the Satanic locks, then yes, they would conclude there is an appointment of leadership of Ahlulbayt in Quran and it would be of it's clear signs to them.
The problem is Sayateen cast upon the hearts to prevent people from perceiving the clear signs and the blessed recitation. However with enough reflection while with a heart that is present, the Satanic recitations can be defeated, and the blessed recitations followed.
Brother, look the fact that no ordinair sunni who never heard of any sect like shiism, ever can come up with this concept of imamah is just enough. Naql and Aql are both strong elements which guide us.
In case of Naql, the concept of wilaya/imamah of shiism is absent. On the other hand, there are ayat which show that wahi ends with Rasulullah (saw) thus it's very clear nothing can come after that.
In case of Aql, I will ask you: If Allah appointed an infallible imam, since fallibles can't guide themselves, then where is this imam of yours? It just doesn't make sense.
Conclusion: this whole concept contradicts Naql and Aql in every way unless you want to cling to something which isn't clear. I prefer basing my deen upon clear cut facts and evidences not some dreams, weird puzzles, etc
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Furkan, unfortunately the force of darkness makes people unable to apply logic on themselves first :D
We always need infallibles to guide us but....wait hes not around for 1100 years. So i guess, this doctrine only applies for the first 250+ yrs. Thats logic :D
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There's an authentic narration where the Prophet (saw) likens Abu Bakr and `Umar to Ibrahim and `Isa peace be upon them. We're all in agreement that Ibrahim and `Isa are better than Haroun (as)
: p
Let's see what you wrote there:
((Sulaiman inheriting Dawood, is more like one of the later Imams inheriting a later Imam. Musa and Harun were founding Leaders of their nation. This is one point.))
Except that Haroun (as) never inherited Musa (as) nor did he succeed him after his death, that was Yusha` bin Noun (as). Therefore, `Ali was not mean to either inherit nor succeed. Heck even in your books it says that Yusha` was the Wasi of Musa (as) and here's an example from Tafsir al-Qummi:
وأودعه يوشع وصيه
[And Musa offered it [the Tabout] to his Wasi Yusha`.]
((Some points to mention, Rasool according to our beliefs stated Ali is his successor explicitly and even named all the 12 Imams to the people on occasions.))
This never happened but if you like to place your faith in the hands of Qummis and abandon what the entire nation narrated because it disagrees with the Qummies then that's a very unwise decision.
((The issue is if he only states things with no room for denial like, "Ali is my successor" as in clear daylight in Shia hadiths or names all 12 Imams...then he would fail to protect the message, because only those who accept the station would narrate it.))
According to your Hadith books everybody narrated it, this includes `Umar, abu Hurayrah, Anas etc... In other words your Qummi narrators are liars who make stuff up and attribute it to everybody.
((However we see in Quran, Harun's teachings were important and that he was to be followed ALONGSIDE Musa.))
Who told you that `Ali is exactly like Haroun (as) in every single aspect? We believe that the likeness between Haroun (as) and `Ali is limited to a few basic matters related to the incident of Tabouk, no sane man would go and generalize by saying that `Ali is exactly like Haroun (as) because he isn't nor does the Arabic language imply this nor does the CLEAR context of that narration imply this. This is a silly generalization caused by the Ghuluw of your sect.
((And yes this includes the position of being the one who would take place of Mohammad in his absence, be it if Mohammad left for closeness to God like Musa or that he dies...and this is obvious.))
This is refuted because it is Mutawatir that our Prophet (saw) would appoint different people to take his place when he travels and charges them with authority. In fact, he only gave `Ali this position once during Tabouk.
((Do you even accept Ali as a chosen one? If you do, then you can see by the Talut verses that such are appointed as leaders to humanity and given God's authority.))
Except that Talout was only chosen because the people asked their Prophet (as) to ask Allah to appoint a man to lead them into battle. Allah didn't appoint him just like that, if the people never asked for a military leader he wouldn't have been appointed. Similarly, our Prophet (saw) would appoint many military leaders during his life, such as `Amr ibn al-`Aas. I add, that Talout became jealous of Dawoud (as) and attempted to kill him. Nowhere was it reported that Talout succeeded the Prophet of his time, he simply led people into battle during the Prophet-hood of another man, then Dawoud (as) became a Prophet during the battle when he killed Jalout.
According to your Imam in Tafsir al-Qummi, this is because for banu Isra'il, prophet-hood was in one household and kingdom was in another household, so their kings were not from the same family as their prophets:
قال حدثني أبي عن النضر بن سويد عن يحيى الحلبي عن هارون بن خارجة عن أبي بصير عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام إن بني إسرائيل بعد موسى عليه السلام عملوا المعاصي وغيروا دين الله وعتوا عن أمر ربهم، وكان فيهم نبي يأمرهم وينهاهم فلم يطيعوه، وروي أنه أرميا النبي، فسلط الله عليهم جالوت، وهو من القبط فأذلهم وقتل رجالهم وأخرجهم من ديارهم وأموالهم واستعبد نساءهم، ففزعوا إلى نبيهم وقالوا سل الله أن يبعث لنا ملكاً نقاتل في سبيل الله، وكانت النبوة في بني إسرائيل في بيت والملك والسلطان في بيت آخر لم يجمع الله لهم الملك والنبوة في بيت واحد
And it was narrated by al-Sadiq in al-`Ayyashi and al-Majma` that in their time the king was the one whose job was to lead the armies while the Prophet would give him legitimacy and prophesy to him and reveal to him whatever came from his Lord.
المجمع والعياشي عن الصادق عليه السلام قال كان الملك في ذلك الزمان هو الذي يسير بالجنود والنبي يقيم له أمره وينبئه بالخبر من عند ربه
In other words, Talout was not a successor nor was he different from any military leader our Prophet (saw) chose during his life such as Usamah and Abu Bakr and Khalid.
u say:
((such that the obstinate would look for illogical conclusions, like "it only meant this temporal leadership" except the Prophet mentioned "except there is no Prophet after me"))
We say: He said this only so that no one may misunderstand and raise `Ali to a position of prophet-hood. This doesn't imply that `Ali was chosen to succeed.
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There's an authentic narration where the Prophet (saw) likens Abu Bakr and `Umar to Ibrahim and `Isa peace be upon them. We're all in agreement that Ibrahim and `Isa are better than Haroun (as)
Salaams brother Hani.
Can you quote the narration, please?
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review my book on Abu Bakr.
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I don't believe in those hadiths about Abu Baker and Umar being like Prophets, so why would use them against me.
We are discussing a mutuwatir hadith that we all believe has been narrated.
When I said take the place of Mohammad, I don't mean Mohammad couldn't have appointed people to rule in different areas. This doesn't mean those people are taking the place of Mohammad.
When Harun took the place of Musa, his leadership wasn't simply that of other appointed people. What is ironic, is that you mentioned that Talut didn't even take place of a Prophet but was a military leader. So you say Talut is not taking a place of a Prophet yet you say companions are by their limited leadership. This is called double standards in your argument.
Harun taking place of Musa was not limited leadership but had divine leadership and Wilayah of Allah. What I mean taking place of Mohammad is taking his full leadership role as God's representative. That is something Ali had and would take in his absence, but not something others had, and that is something Harun had.
Now as for Talut, we have the following statements of Quran:
1. He is of the mustafayoon above the people.
2. He was foremost in knowledge.
3. He was given God's Mulk (ie. God's authority)
4. He was bringing the inheritance of the family of Musa and Harun which had tranquility from God for the people, the Angels bearing it.
5. God through him tried people with a river.
6. Those believers who were steadfast in the trial were "from him/of him" while those who didn't were not.
As for 3, this is the most explicit proof that Talut was a Leader appointed by God with full authority of God, it didn't state, and God gives from his authority who he pleases, but says gives HIS authority to who he pleases, meaning Talut had all of it, he was to be obeyed fully in all his commands and we see that Talut does command people with a spiritual command (ie. don't drink from the river) on behalf of God. We also see believers were from him, and it was emphasized believers were with him. He was also stated to be chosen above them showing he has superior spiritual qualities. He was also stated to bring the Tabut which had tranquility from God to the people and that would be the sign of his authority showing his authority was more then political but even had that as divine sign of it. Furthermore, what the Prophet stated that proves his authority shows ALL Prophets are true kings of humanity that God has risen them kings. This because each is chosen above the people, superior in knowledge, God gives his authority to who he pleases and God is the true King to be obeyed. To say they didn't rule humanity is to say God doesn't rule humanity.
As well, we see Mariam is chosen and part of a chosen family (family of Imran) above the worlds, and so it's not necessarily that you must be a Prophet to be have an exalted status of chosen one.
You stated "except there is no Prophet after me" was just clarification not to compare to a Prophet. But the phrase, the manizalah of Harun to Musa INCLUDES being a Prophet along side Musa. This shows unlike what you stated, it cannot be just about temporal leadership in the event of Tabuk, because if it was only having temporal representation of Harun taking place of Musa, it would not make sense to mention Prophethood as part of that. The fact he mentioned it contrary to what you claim, gives all the other positions that Harun had with Musa.
This is clear by the sentence structure. For what you said to make sense, he would of said "and there is no Prophet after me", instead of saying "except there is no Prophet after me". The except shows his statement would of implied Ali was a Prophet after Mohammad were it not for him making that exception. This is what it means. So it means all other place Harun had with Musa, Ali has with Mohammad.
Bringing hadiths I don't believe in are ad hoc arguments.
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Mariam [as] was a chosen a person, yet not a Prophet. As the exception was not made "except that there is no chosen person after me", we can conclude that then Ali was chosen.
Talut [as] was a chosen leader, yet not a Prophet. As the exception was not made "except that there is no chosen leader after me", we can conclude Ali was a chosen leader. The 12 chiefs of bani-Israel were also non-Prophet chosen leaders.
What was said to Ali(RA) during Tabook was in regards to Harun(AS) not Mariam(AS), Talut or 12 chiefs of Bani Israel(who broke the covenant of God), hence irrelevant example used.
Also, being chosen is a description not a position like Prophet-hood or Messenger-hood. And the word chosen general which is depends on the context and the role, like the other companions were chosen for similar tasks from leading armies to teaching Islam to being in charge over Madinah in absence of Prophet.
Harun (as) was by which Musa (as) breast got expanded and the knot on his tongue lifted as Harun (as) was better at speech (regarding the higher truths which Musa felt he couldn't convey as well) and hence was the DOOR to understanding the wisdom of Musa, and his revelation was the door to the interior of the religion and the high knowledge.
Ali (as) was also then the door to the house of wisdom (Mohammad (saw)) but was not a Prophet and there is an allusion to him in Suratal Inshira coupled with Musa's prayer through out the Quran, and also correspondence particular that of Suratal Taha with "did we not raise your mention".
How exactly did the breast of Musa(AS) got expanded through Harun(AS)?
BTW mind you that what you are saying has no comparison because Musa(AS) made this supplication from the very first day he was given the task, but this is not the case with Muhammad(SAW), since Ali(RA) was a 7 yr old boy that time, and Prophet(SAW) delivered the message all alone in the beginning and later involved his companions to deliver the message and teachings of Islam.
For more detailed study on this issue refer this article:
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2014/12/07/smashing-the-myth-of-taking-ahlul-bayt-as-the-only-conveyors-of-islamic-knowledge/
Harun (as) was such that he would take the place of Musa (as) in his absence. Ali (as) would be such that he takes the place of Mohammad (saw) in his absence.
Don't forget that Muhammad(SAW) appointed in his place other companions too on other occasions.
The problem with you is that you are stretching it out of its context, and this hadeeth is to be understood in its context. The right understanding of the hadeeth is that, in this appointment Ali's condition is same as Haroon(AS), which I explained in previous post. But if you stretch it out to make it overall similarility then it becomes a must on you to believe that Ali(RA) was not supposed to be the successor of Muhammad(Saw), since Haroon wasn't. So you can't play these double standards here.
Harun (as) had total guidance from God and was to be followed with Musa (as) "...and they who follow you both shall be victorious".
Yes because HE was a Prophet, so he was to be followed unconditionally but the same doesn't goes for Ali(RA) since he wasn't a Prophet.
Harun (as) had to recognized as God's Chosen one along side recognizing Musa (as) "Lord of Harun and Musa". The same is true of Ali (as). (Mariam (as) is chosen, Talut (as) is chosen, and both are not Prophets).
Harun(AS) was a Prophet, which encompasses being a chosen one. But if you mean that He was chosen one for the task of care taking the people in absence of Musa(AS) for a temporary time period then, you should acknowledge the fact that such selection was not restricted for Ali(RA), because others too were chosen on other occasions for care taking the people in absence of Prophet(SAW).
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Musa (as) words are paraphrased in different places. In one place it says "And my heart is constricted and my tongue doesn't reach out so send me Harun" (so we can see what is meant by his other words in Quran).
In another place it says "And Harun is better at me in speech so...", so we can see what was meant by his words. These are phrases interpreting each other. So we know what is meant by "expand me my breast, and take off the knot off my tongue)
At the way it was expanded was due to the hidden knowledge in Musa (as) being able to be conveyed to the masses without feeling people will not understand him or that he cannot convey the truth, while before that he felt he couldn't convey and there was a knot on his tongue.
Ali (as) being whatever age is no problem as we see Yahya (as) was made a Prophet when he was very young. This is not an issue. And we believe some of our Imams became the ones to lead at a very young age, so this would be another ad hoc argument.
Ali (as) was the door to the house of wisdom and the gate to the city of knowledge and he had that role during the life time of the Nabi (saw0, and hence had this role of Harun (as) to Musa (as).
Mariam (as) and Talut (as) are both chosen but not Prophets. Not being a Prophet would not mean he is not a chosen one. Being chosen in the sense of being specially chosen by God meant you were of an exalted station. At any rate, what I mean is that Mariam (as) was an exalted person by God, towering above normal people. The same can would be true of Ali having the position to Mohammad as Harun to Musa, as Harun was a trial of being an exalted person towering above normal people alongside Musa.
And if included in the temporary station was that of Prophethood, then the same with being a chosen one, a leader, the wazeer, and all other stations he had with Musa, including being an exalted person to be recognized and followed.
And the 12 Naqeebs weren't the ones who broke the covenant, it was referring to Bani-Israel who broke the covenant, as is obvious as then it refers to the present one among them and says words about them.
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You said:
((I don't believe in those hadiths about Abu Baker and Umar being like Prophets, so why would use them against me.
We are discussing a mutuwatir hadith that we all believe has been narrated.))
We accept what the Imams of Hadith narrate, and they narrated both, so either we accept one and refuse the other like utter hypocrites or both are a Hujjah. Besides where did you get this idea that the only narrations to be used are Mutawatir ones? What innovation is this?
You said:
((When I said take the place of Mohammad, I don't mean Mohammad couldn't have appointed people to rule in different areas. This doesn't mean those people are taking the place of Mohammad.
When Harun took the place of Musa, his leadership wasn't simply that of other appointed people. What is ironic, is that you mentioned that Talut didn't even take place of a Prophet but was a military leader. So you say Talut is not taking a place of a Prophet yet you say companions are by their limited leadership. This is called double standards in your argument.))
It's called stating the facts, you wish for me to change the facts? Besides the Prophet (saw) said: "Whoever obeys the Emir obeys me." Meaning, when he leaves a man in charge, then we are to obey whoever he left in charge. Is the situation comprehensible for you or is it too complicated? The people asked their Prophet to appoint a leader to lead them in battle, he chose one and asked them to obey him, after the battle another Prophet called Dawoud (as) emerged. This does not resemble the Shiite Imamah at all. As for our Prophet (saw), he would also appoint men as his successors when he leaves Madinah, he would appoint men as military leaders, he would appoint men as princes of Hajj etc... What's so abnormal I don't understand. `Ali happened to complain when he was appointed as successor over Madinah, he didn't like it, so the Prophet (saw) comforted him by explaining to him the importance of this task and `Ali was pleased. Too complicated for you? Or is this rare and illogical?
((Harun taking place of Musa was not limited leadership but had divine leadership and Wilayah of Allah.))
Because Haroun (as) was a Prophet, `Ali isn't and thus `Ali had nothing divine about his temporary Wilayah.
You wrote this large paragraph of uselesness:
((Now as for Talut, we have the following statements of Quran:
1. He is of the mustafayoon above the people.
2. He was foremost in knowledge.
3. He was given God's Mulk (ie. God's authority)
4. He was bringing the inheritance of the family of Musa and Harun which had tranquility from God for the people, the Angels bearing it.
5. God through him tried people with a river.
6. Those believers who were steadfast in the trial were "from him/of him" while those who didn't were not.
As for 3, this is the most explicit proof that Talut was a Leader appointed by God with full authority of God, it didn't state, and God gives from his authority who he pleases, but says gives HIS authority to who he pleases, meaning Talut had all of it, he was to be obeyed fully in all his commands and we see that Talut does command people with a spiritual command (ie. don't drink from the river) on behalf of God. We also see believers were from him, and it was emphasized believers were with him. He was also stated to be chosen above them showing he has superior spiritual qualities. He was also stated to bring the Tabut which had tranquility from God to the people and that would be the sign of his authority showing his authority was more then political but even had that as divine sign of it. Furthermore, what the Prophet stated that proves his authority shows ALL Prophets are true kings of humanity that God has risen them kings. This because each is chosen above the people, superior in knowledge, God gives his authority to who he pleases and God is the true King to be obeyed. To say they didn't rule humanity is to say God doesn't rule humanity.))
Did you not see the narration of al-Sadiq above where he said that the man's mission was nothing more than military leadership? And that all those divine orders were not from his own pocket but were the instructions the Prophet of his time gave him? In other words he only obeyed his instructions, he wasn't receiving revelation nor did he have anything special other than being a righteous knowledgeable person. As for the Tabout descending this is because banu israel only believed when they saw miracles, so Allah had to send them a miracles to make them believe, it serves no purpose other than this.
Let me re-quote it:
المجمع والعياشي عن الصادق عليه السلام قال كان الملك في ذلك الزمان هو الذي يسير بالجنود والنبي يقيم له أمره وينبئه بالخبر من عند ربه
In al-Safi, al-Majma` and al-`Ayyashi from al-Sadiq that he said: "In those days the king used to lead the soldiers into battle, whereas the prophet would make sure to keep him on the path and prophesy to him what the Lord reveals."
THIS IS NOT SHIITE IMAMAH! The definition of Imamah as per your scholars is VERY different than this, in fact Islam as a whole never had this system as it was solely for banu Isra'il.
Everything you wrote there is useless filler content, not one solid argument worth an answer.
Here's a guy whom Allah "gave" kingship yet he is a Kafir who argued with Ibrahim (as):
{Have you not considered the one who argued with Abraham about his Lord [merely] because Allah had given him kingship?} [2:258]
((As well, we see Mariam is chosen and part of a chosen family (family of Imran) above the worlds, and so it's not necessarily that you must be a Prophet to be have an exalted status of chosen one.))
And I am chosen to write this forum post to refute you, or do you think we as humans do things that Allah doesn't allow? What was Mariam (as) chosen for? Political leadership? Why the heck are you linking Mariam (as) with `Ali!? Pull yourself together man!
((You stated "except there is no Prophet after me" was just clarification not to compare to a Prophet. But the phrase, the manizalah of Harun to Musa INCLUDES being a Prophet along side Musa. This shows unlike what you stated, it cannot be just about temporal leadership in the event of Tabuk, because if it was only having temporal representation of Harun taking place of Musa, it would not make sense to mention Prophethood as part of that. The fact he mentioned it contrary to what you claim, gives all the other positions that Harun had with Musa.))
I disagree and say that you're wrong and that this phrase is only to clarify for foolish people (there's no shortage of them) that `Ali is not in any way of any divine status rather his successor-ship in Madinah is a temporal one similar to Haroun's (as) temporal leadership, nor did Haroun (as) succeed nor did he rule, heck Harouns (as) never even had authority over the people in the absence of Musa (as), proof is he didn't do anything to prevent the people from worshiping the calf.
I'd have to say, if the Prophet (saw) intended absolute authority and gave the example of Haroun (as) instead of Yusha` (as), then that's a pretty bad choice.
You said:
((This is clear by the sentence structure. For what you said to make sense, he would of said "and there is no Prophet after me", instead of saying "except there is no Prophet after me".))
In Arabic both linguistically imply the same thing so don't bother with this type of argument and don't invent arguments from your pocket.
Also for a person whose talking about sentence structure, you seem to not understand the entire context which is more clearer.
قَالَ: خَلَفَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ عَلِيًّا فِي أَهْلِهِ حِينَ غَزَا غَزْوَةَ تَبُوكَ، فَقَالَ بَعْضُ النَّاسِ: مَا مَنَعَهُ أَنْ يُخْرِجَهُ إِلا أَنْ كَرِهَ صُحْبَتَهُ. فَبَلَغَ ذَلِكَ عَلِيًّا، فَقَالَ: يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ، زَعَمَ النَّاسُ أَنَّكَ لَمْ تَخْلُفْنِي إِلا أَنَّكَ كَرِهْتَ صُحْبَتِي
[The Messenger (saw) left behind `Ali in charge of his folks when he conquered Tabouk, so some people said: "He only left him back there as he hated his company." When `Ali heard of this he went to the Prophet (saw) and said: "O Messenger of Allah (saw), the people claimed that you left me only because you detest my company!?"...]
And a couple of similar versions exist where he cries and whatever... SO the Prophet (saw) clarified to him that leaving him behind was not due to any hatred or lack of faith in his ability or due to his small status in his eyes, NO it's because of his trust in `Ali and strong faith just as Musa (as) left behind Haroun (as) at that time.
This for us, isn't an appointment, in fact if we blew the narrations of virtues out of proportion the same way you Shiites do we'd have a couple of successors.
We can take abu `Ubaydah's Hadith:
"For every nation there is a trustee and the trusted person of my nation is abu `Ubaydah."
Or Zubayr's Hadith:
"Every prophet had a disciple and my disciple is al-Zubayr ibn al-`Awwam."
Or `Abbas's Hadith:
"`Abbas is my uncle and a man's uncle is in position of his father."
etc...
All of these can be argued to be texts of appointment.
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Link forget about all the long useless posts you dragged us to, answer this question:
Was Haroun (as) the man Musa (as) appointed as his successor in prophet-hood before his death?
If "Yes" then you have an argument, if "No" then `Ali also isn't the appointed successor after our Prophet (saw).
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in one place, musa is mentioned, in another place harun is mentioned..
in one place mariyam is mentioned, in one place yahya is mentioned,
in one place talut is mentioned,
in one place Prophet Muhammad SAWW is mentioned..but no where Ali is mentioned..
1400 yrs have been past nd still you guys fail to prove Hazrat Ali imamat from the holy Quran, this seem very odd whn you look towards the hadith by supporting ur argument..nd by doing this u are actually supporting our point that no where Ali imamat is mentioned in the holy Quran..
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I was using Mariam and Talut to show to be an exalted person chosen above rest of humanity, you don't need to be a Prophet.
At any rate, we are going in circles. I think I've said enough of what I have had to say.
I'm not going to argue about who actually succeeded Musa, but one thing to consider is, Quran says Musa at one time had no control over anybody but his brother, and to separate between them (him and his brother) and the transgressing people.
A person who was going to become a Prophet, certainly, Musa would control over him because he would be obedient to God. If we are going to go by what Jews and Christians say, then certainly Joshua was in the wilderness for about 40 years. Now why would one of God's Prophets or Successors to his Prophet be such that Musa has no control over and be separated from Musa and Harun when they said separate us from the transgressing people.
But it doesn't matter who succeeded Musa or not, and I've already explained why.
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Link, you need to understand that the fact that we're having an argument about what this could mean, this itself shows that it's not a text of appointment. Evidence must be CLEAR, not metaphorical or vague texts that can be given a plethora of valid interpretations.
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Quran and hadith are clear enough, it's just some hearts are not clean enough.
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Quran and hadith are clear enough, it's just some hearts are not clean enough.
Qur'an says this:
{And the first forerunners [in the faith] among the Muhajireen and the Ansar and those who followed them with good conduct - Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him} [9:100]
Let's see your clean heart when it comes to explicit verses, or is your clean heart only attached to vague narrations that withstand more than 20 interpretations?
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Musa (as) words are paraphrased in different places. In one place it says "And my heart is constricted and my tongue doesn't reach out so send me Harun" (so we can see what is meant by his other words in Quran).
Please provide the Chapter and verse number of this verse.
At the way it was expanded was due to the hidden knowledge in Musa (as) being able to be conveyed to the masses without feeling people will not understand him or that he cannot convey the truth, while before that he felt he couldn't convey and there was a knot on his tongue.
Sorry I didnt get you. Musa(AS) asked Allah to expand his breast, through Harun(AS), how ??
Ali (as) being whatever age is no problem as we see Yahya (as) was made a Prophet when he was very young. This is not an issue. And we believe some of our Imams became the ones to lead at a very young age, so this would be another ad hoc argument.
You missed the point that I was talking about facts, since Ali(RA) was a seven year boy, when Prophethood was granted to Muhammad(SAW) so it is known that Ali(RA) wasn't able to provide any help to Prophet like Harun(AS) did to Musa(AS) when he was given Prophethood. At that time Ali(RA) wasn't someone who would deliver the message of Islam to people, nor was knowledge sought by the Muslims through him, considering him to be a door of knowledge.
Mariam (as) and Talut (as) are both chosen but not Prophets. Not being a Prophet would not mean he is not a chosen one. Being chosen in the sense of being specially chosen by God meant you were of an exalted station. At any rate, what I mean is that Mariam (as) was an exalted person by God, towering above normal people. The same can would be true of Ali having the position to Mohammad as Harun to Musa, as Harun was a trial of being an exalted person towering above normal people alongside Musa.
This point has been perfectly dealt by Hani, so i'll skip
And the 12 Naqeebs weren't the ones who broke the covenant, it was referring to Bani-Israel who broke the covenant, as is obvious as then it refers to the present one among them and says words about them.
You are misinformed, they along with their 7 chiefs along with their tribes broke the covenant. Refer these two Tafaseer:
(Allah made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel) the acknowledgement of the Children of Israel in the Torah of Muhammad, that they shall worship none except Allah and that they shall not ascribe partners to Him (and We raised among them twelve chieftains) 12 messengers; and it is said: 12 kings, a king to each tribe: (and Allah said) to these kings: (Lo! I am with you) I will help you. (If you establish worship) if you establish the prayer which has been made obligatory upon you (and pay the poor-due) from your wealth, (and believe in) acknowledge and accept (My messengers) who are sent to you (and support them) and assist them with the sword against the enemy, (and lend unto Allah a kindly loan) genuinely from your heart, (surely I shall remit your sins) other than the enormities, (and surely I shall bring you into Gardens beneath which) beneath its trees and habitations (rivers) rivers of water, milk, wine and honey (flow. Whoso among you disbelieveth after this) after accepting and acknowledging the covenant (will go astray from a plain road) such a person has erred from the road of guidance. Nonetheless, they disbelieved except five of them. Allah then explained the punishment of those who had disbelieved, saying: (And because of their) i.e. the kings (breaking their covenant, We have cursed them) We punished them through imposing the capitation tax upon them (and made hard) and lightless (their hearts. ( Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs (5:12-13).
God had made a covenant with the Children of Israel, for what will be mentioned shortly, and We raised up (there is a shift of address away from the third [to the first] person) from among them twelve leaders, from each tribe one leader, to be responsible for his people’s fulfilment of the covenant, as a way of binding them [to it]. And God said, to them: ‘I am with you, helping and assisting. Surely if (la-in, the lām is for oaths) you establish the prayer, and pay the alms, and believe in My messengers and succour them, help them, and lend to God a goodly loan, by expending in His way, I will absolve you of your evil deeds, and I will admit you to gardens underneath which rivers flow. So whoever of you disbelieves after that, covenant, surely he has strayed from the right way’, he has erred from the path to Paradise (al-sawā’ originally means ‘the middle way’). And they broke the covenant.(tafseer jalalayn 5:12)
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From what I know the 12 Chiefs were chosen by the people. They were not divinely appointed imams.
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Not only that bro aba Abdillah, but there's load of differences between `Ali's case and Talout's one. Banu Isra'il had two dominant families, one family contained prophets and the other family contained kings, when Talout was chosen the people were shocked because he was neither from the family of Prophets (Musa's lineage) nor from the family of kings. Talout was a sign by the Prophet of that time to prove his own prophet-hood, the people doubted the man's prophet-hood so they asked him for a sign and a leader to lead them into battle, so he told them that God chose this man and made his sign the chest of prophetic-relics. After the long battles ended, Talout was never heard from again and the prophet-hood was transferred from Sham`oun (or Shamu'eel) to Dawoud (as).
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Thank you Hani.
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Additional note:
Regarding the verse where Musa (as) says:
{And appoint for me a minister from my family - Aaron, my brother. - Increase through him my strength - And let him share my task} [20:29-32]
The word "Wazir" is translated to "minister", and this translation is not accurate, if you refer to Tafsir al-Tabari, the word Wazir is from Mu'azarah or support, not a minister in the sense of how in our days a president has a bunch of ministers under him. So the correct translation is {And appoint for me a supporter from my family}. This is quite obvious as Musa (as) didn't need any ministers to give him advice, he had divine guidance, but he needed henchmen and supporters to help him and increase his strength and share a portion of the burden.
I thought you guys should know this, so anytime you see a Hadith stating "And make `Ali my vizier" what he means is "my supporter".
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review my book on Abu Bakr.
Salaams, brother.
I have, and I used the Control + Find functionality and each time I searched for "Ibrahim" it was someone else or the narration was just comparing Abu Bakr's (RA) mercy to Ibrahim (AS).
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if this was the place of Harun to Musa meant, it would not make sense to include Prophethood in that. The "except there is no Prophet after me" showed the place of Harun to Musa included Prophethood and hence was more then simply temporary leadership.
He said this because Harun was one of the Prophets after Musa. This was clarification. You're conjecture is very weak.
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Many Prophets weren't mentioned in the Qur'an. But it is clear from Ahadith that Yusha ibn Nun was the successor of Musa. So you're whole argument is exceedingly illogical and silly. Yusha ironically bore a similar relation to Moses as Abu Bakr did to the Prophet, as he was from Bene Ephraim. You're bringing up of Talut is very odd because he was not an infallible, rather he was a just king. Nor was he the successor of Musa, or any prophet for that matter. He was just a Political ruler. This brings me to the elephant in the room which is that the leaders that were appointed in the Qur'an were political. Whereas only 3 of the Imams had any kind of Hukm whatsoever. So you cannot use that as proof for your imams as these rulers seem to only have a political role, rather than the clerical, spiritual, non-political roles the Imams seemed to of had. I don't know about the 12 rulers of Bani Isra'il but I do know they weren't successors of prophets, or infallible, or had any role like the Imams did.
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Anyone else concerned for Link? I haven't seen him in a while, إن شاء الله everything is ok with him
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He wanted to stop debating during ramadan and have a rest I think.
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i made an article for the talut verse for reference
http://twelvershia.net/2015/10/26/is-king-talout-similar-to-the-shia-imams/
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Powerful article. Jazak Allah khairan.