Salam Alaikum Ya Ikwaan, it's been a long time. Sorry I wasn't constant, it was because I had exams.
I got into a discussion with a Shia about the 12 imams and I need your help. I'll be posting subsequently my posts and his also. His posts are colored red while mine are blue. Plus I used in my arguments some materials from this site, Masha'Allah
MY PERSONAL REFUTATIONS TO THE ABOVE MENTIONED ARGUMENTS THAT THE 12 SUCCESSORS CANNOT BE THE 12 IMAMS OF THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD'S AHLUL-BAYT/PROGENY THAT (WE) THE SHIA-MUSLIMS BELIEVE IN AS THE ONLY LEGITIMATE SUCCESSORS TO THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD (s).
Sunni caliphs are more than 30 in number, and the Prophet (s) categorically stated there would be 12 successors.
it is very ironic that the Sunni scholars, as quoted above, would prepare a list of 12 from amongst their tens of caliphs to match to this hadith with no basis why they decide to choose those 12 names. some of them even include Yazeed, while others disregard him.
then these same people would accuse the Shia of being the ones bringing up the names of their Twelve Imams to match up with the hadiths. yet, the Twelve Imams of the Shia are all from the Ahlul-Bayt (as) and were one after the other until the Twelfth. It was not a case that the Shia have countless, many or over 30 Imams from the Ahlul-Bayt (as) and amongst them, like Sunnis do with their over 30 caliphs, they pick a list of 12. it is not the fault of the Shia that the line of Imamate stopped with the Twelfth Imam. it was not by choice that that happened, but by divine decree as the hadith of the Prophet (s) had predicted. these 12 Imams from the Prophet's progeny were one after another. it was a succession of father to son, by Allah's decree as this verse explains better:
"Surely Allah chose Adam and Nuh and the descendants of Ibrahim and the descendants of Imran above the nations. Offspring one of the other; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing." (Holy Quran 3:33-34)
regarding those Shia groups that are now extinct that stopped or believed in 3,4, or 7 Imams, that was borne out of their doubt, confusion or misinformation, largely due to geography and persecution. if they chose not to believe further, it does not make the line of succession of the Imamate up to the 12th stop, and nor does it make the hadith of the twelve successors, which both Sunnis and Shia believe in, null or void. whether you believe, or they believe, or not, the promise of Allah will manifest. after all, those extinct groups did believe that Imam Ali (as) was the first successor of the Prophet (s), and not Abu Bakr; will Sunnis also follow the footsteps of those extinct groups and believe in 3,4 or 7 Imams as they have done?
moreover, the Quran states that the "light/guidance of Allah cannot be extinguished". common sense dictates that if those groups were the guided, they wont go into extinction. The Twelver Shias (Ithna Ashariyyah) who make up the largest body of Shias, and the word "Shia" refers to them by default, is the only group that believe in Twelve Imams, again not by their choice but by divine decree as the Imamate stood on the number 12. the other two Shia sub groups, namely the Zaidis and Ismailis believe in many Imams, like Sunnis numbering tens. the Zaidis diverted after Imam Ali Ibn al-Hussain (as), and believed a different line, and the Ismailis stopped at Imam Ja'far al Sadeq (as), and believed in a different line. note the word "believe". in the case of the Zaidis and Ismailis, they "believed" in different lines, and not followed, because those they attributed the imamate to from among the children of the Imams among the Twelve Imams were not alive or present to lead them. they attributed the imamate to them after their death, while in reality those figures did not claim the imamate. on the other hand, the sucessionship of the Twelve Imams was both verbal and written. the Twelve Imams issued religious decrees (fatwas) to their Shia on the successor to come and his name amongst their offspring.
by no means can either of these argument stand to justify the claim that the Shia match their Twelve Imams (as) the hadith many years later. from the hadith itself, it is clear that the 12 wont rule altogether at once. its a case of successionship over the years. and that happened with the Shia not by choice as the imamate successionship halted at the number 12. it did not stop at 7 or 4 or 5 or continue to 15. it stopped at twelve. not by disobedience or rejection, but because at the number 12, there was no successor, and the 12th Imam was miraculously preserved while his forefathers were all martyred by the tyranical rulers.
this hadith is just a defeat for any Sunni who tries to prop up a list of 12 names from amongst the over 30 Sunni caliphs. it is unsubstantiated and a case of baselessness on the part on part of Sunni scholars who would stop at nothing to reject the obvious.
we believe that from the Shia belief "imamate" has a superior stations in Shia Islam (as it is both spiritual and material leadership), in contrast to the caliphate in the Sunni context, which is only material leadership. however, when the term "caliph" is used to refer to the successor of the Prophet (s), not in a defined Sunni context, but a general context, we do subscribe to this hadith of 12 caliphs. it is on the basis that the caliph of the Prophet (s) must be both a spiritual and worldly/material/political leader that we believe that the imamate in the Shia context carries more weight to the Shia than the caliphate to the Sunnis. the word "caliphs/successors" used in this hadith should therefore not be used in the definite sense of the Sunni caliphate or in that context. therefore playing with words that the Shias believe in imams and not caliphs is silly. whether they successors of the Prophet (s) are called "amir" (princes), khulafa (successors), imams (leaders), or hukkam (rulers), as far as they are 12 in number and one after the other and from the Prophet's progeny/Ahlul-Bayt (as) that is all that matter to us.
furthermore, in versions of this hadiths, not accepted by mainstream Sunni Islam, the names of the Twelve Imams are said to have been stated by the Prophet (s). this part of the hadith:
"”Then he said something I did not hear, and my father said that he said: “All of them will be from Quraysh.”
carries a lot of suspicion. note the emphasis "and my father said that he said"!!! and why did he not hear that "something" and his father told him-not the Prophet- that "all of them will be from Quraysh". could the Prophet (s) have added that all of them would be from Banu Hashim or from his Ahlul-Bayt (as) which the narrator concealed or claimed or even actually "did not hear"? in any case, all the caliphs being from quraysh again does disservice to the Sunnis. there were many Sunni caliphs not from Quraysh. and the hadith also discredits the Sunni rulers of today who are not from Quraysh!!! yet still, the Sunni caliphs from Quraysh were still more than 12!!! this hadith is really a thorn to Sunnis. however they twist it, it backfires on them!!!
the hadith states that Islam will prevail for as long as there are Twelve and this life will not end until those Twelve. it doesnt mean if the Twelve, or eleven of the Twelve, were all persecuted and martyred that means they failed. indeed Allah's promise to the prophets will be fulfilled with Imam Mahdi, the Twelfth, when he returns along with Prophet Jesus (as). so the argument that the hadith cant refer to the Twelve Imams of the Ahlul-Bayt (as) is very dishonest. the Twelve Imams of the Ahlul-Bayt (as) the Shia believe in were the fountain of Islamic Learning and Knowledge. the four imams of the four Sunni schools of thought benefitted immensely from the knowledge of Imam Ja'far Ibn Muhammad, al-Sadeq (as), the Sixth Imam. look at the dishonesty of Ibn Taymiyyah's word in saying that only Imam Ali Ibn Abi Talib (as) carried a sword. he disregarded Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain, both of whom fought with their father in the Battle of Siffin against Ibn Taymiyyah's role model Muawiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan. further, Imam Hussain (as) gallantly stood in Karbala against Yazeed (Ibn Taymiyyah and the Wahhabis/Salafists' role model) with his sword and sacrificed everything for the defense of Islam and ended up having his blood triumph over the sword of falsehood of Banu Umayyah.
the clutching at straws and beating around the bush when it comes to this particular hadith that Sunnis generally do is ridiculous and show how unconvincing they can be when they are expose to the truth.
My reply:
ZhulFiqar ^^^Whatever the Sunni Ulama named was based on opinions because the Prophet never mentioned anyone.
So just because the Twelver Shias are in complete agreement as to who the twelve caliphs are. Ironically, their agreement does not suggest any strength, but rather, implies a stubbornness that goes against logic.
Concerning the Twelver Shias being the righteous as you tried to portray above is not acceptable. Your allegations is just based on conjectures, it's a known and established fact the Twelver Shias were never the most populous until the time of Shah Isma'il. The was the man responsible for enforcing Twelver Shiism by killing, maiming and persecuting the Ahl Sunnah of Iran, so just because the Twelver Shias are the most famous of all Shias doesn't automatically translate other factions are lies(in light of Shiism).
The hadith in question goes as clearly stated by the op, I wish you read the op fully with no biased mind. I guess you just merely glanced through:
1- Al-Bukhari (#6682) narrated through the path of Shu’ba from Abdulmalik from Jabir bin Samura that the Prophet – peace be upon him – said that there will be twelve amirs. Shu’ba narrates it in this short form, which others, like Sufyan in Saheeh Muslim (#3394) and Abu Abd Al-Samad Al-Ami in Musnad Ahmad (#20019) narrated a lengthier form from Abdulmalik. The former said: The matters of the people will continue to progress as long as they are led by twelve men. The latter said: This religion will stay at a state of glory or the people will be in a good state until the passing of twelve caliphs.
2- Muslim (#3393) narrated from the path of Husain bin Abdulrahman from Jabir bin Samura the narration but said: This matter will not end until the passing of twelve caliphs.
3- Muslim (#3394) narrated from the path of Abu Awana from Simak the same narration in short form as well. However, he also narrated (#3395) from Hammad bin Salama from Simak that he said: Islam will stay in a state of glory until the passing of twelve caliphs. This is supported by Zakariya bin Abi Za’ida’s report in Mustakhraj Abi Awana (#5631) that includes this addition.
Meaning of the Hadith:
The meaning of the Hadith is apparent. Islam will go through phases, which include times of glory and times of disgrace. The years of glory that were known during the time of the Prophet – peace be upon him – will continue to last until the passing of twelve caliphs, which suggests a long period of glory.
The narration does not suggest that glory will only be known during the reign of twelve caliphs, but rather, it suggests an uninterrupted era of glory, which was a significant prophecy and good news for the Sahabah, who were used to the oppression from their enemies.
There is also nothing in this narration about the nature of these twelve caliphs. They are not described in any of the narrations in a positive or negative light, but only that Islam will see glory until they pass.
Moreover, there's no relation as to how Shias interpret this hadith!!! As clearly explained by the Ibn Taymiyyah, Ibn Kathir, et al. The interpretation of the Shia is baseless because only Ali and to some extent Hasan had power over the Ummah, this an established fact. There's no need for any conspiracy of this that those, it's very clear no ambiguity whatsoever!
Salam Alaikum!
He then replied:
You obviously did not read my post or if you did certainly not completely.
You view the "glory of Islam" as in phases. Your second and third caliphs were both killed by their enemies. The fourth to you was faced with two civil wars and a third battle against the Khawarij. The fifth murdered and plundered. The sixth massacred the family of Prophet Muhammad (s) and committed the Tragedy of Karbala. And ugly list goes on and on and on. Is this your definition of glory? All the conquests were through bloodshed and killings. Your definition of glory is material. To us, glory refers to "the righteous shall inherit the earth" as stated in the Holy Quran. That glory refers to the ultimate victory of Imam Mahdi (ajtfs) and the return of Prophet Jesus (as). "The earth shall be filled with justice and equality as it was filled with injustice and tyranny". Islam will be glorious or STANDING as far as there are Twelve Caliphs. Those Twelve are a condition for Allah's continuation of Islam. In another version of this same Hadith, it is stated that the Prophet (s) said: "the number of my successors is the number of the tribes of Banu Israeel".
It is funny you accuse me of conjectures when I presented facts and sound reasoning. I can do the same with yours. The problem is your arguments are not even conjecture but escapism to avoid the plain and obvious truth of the matter which your stance and arguments lack.
You speak of Shah Ismaeel and Persia. Are you really serious and responsible? Was it not through bloodshed and conquest Sunni Islam reached Persia? Did umar conquer Persia with roses and honey? Or by killing and destruction? As for Shah Ismaeel he was Sunni and became Shia. The presence of Shia Islam in Persia was way before shah Ismaeel. The main drive behind shah ismaeel's battles was warding off the Sunni Ottoman Empire. Ethnicism/ethnic rivalry was a fuel: Shah Ismael's Safavid Empire was Persian and the Sunni Ottoman Empire was Turkish. Turkish Shias were also treated in Anatolia with suspicion and cruelty and no better than the Safavids treated Sunnis in Persia. It took a violent turn in the form of a civil war. And the Shia too, whether in Persia or elsewhere, since the passing away of the Prophet (s) were oppressed and continue to be to this day. There is a divine secret behind that.
It is not right for a Sunni to accuse others of bloodshed. Shah Ismaeel acted in his national interest and as the head of an existing empire within that empire. Your caliphs did far worse in "spreading Sunni Islam" far and wide through the sword. And it can be easily said that if not for violence and bloodshed, Sunnis will not be the majority of Muslims today. That is certain. On the other hand, I don't know based on which census did you conclude that Twelvers were a minority. The Persian Shias were already twelvers before shah Ismaeel.so also those Shias in Lebanon,Iraq, Bahrain, and Arabia.
The Prophet (s) said his successors will be 12. Stick to 12. Who were the 12? Did you Actually have 12 or more? Don't go cherry picking from the list of over 30 and tell us these are the names of the 12. Those are not 12 and that is not 12. Certainly, you have way more. The Prophet said 12 only. We did not make them 12. We found them to be so. We did not make them match the Hadith in terms of number because there was no one to follow beyond the 12th Imam. And we did not stop but the line of Imamate halted at the 12th. The fact that extinct Shia groups stopped at 4 or 7 imams, shows that was their own handwork. While the line of Imamate continued and stopped by itself at the 12th. The two other Shia sub groups that survived to this day, like Sunnis, have many and tens of successors. Again their choice and handwork. But the stop at the 12th that mainstream Shia Islam, otherwise called Twelvers, abide by was miraculous. Not our doing.
So brothers I wish you could help me out here, some beneficial points to add!
Salam!
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May 19, 2015, 05:40:42 PM