My view of Zaidi/Twelver debate.

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My view of Zaidi/Twelver debate.
« on: August 04, 2021, 08:24:48 PM »

1. What it means to be chosen?

This is one of the major debates between Twelver and Zaidi. God says he attributes purity to who he pleases.  The religion of Jinn Worshipers and Soothsayers, had it, that there was chosen Angels and chosen representatives among humans from them (they believed Angels were gods and a lot of jinn worshipers today believe this), that had to be recognize for their traits. Quran in contrast to that, says, they have no proof, and that is up to God to choose and prove who is pure and to be followed. Then he shows exactly how he does so by raising Messengers, having miracles to prove them, as well as divine books. The Quran says "Or do they have manifest Authority? Then bring your book if you are truthful".

The three places God talks about God have the sole right of attributing purity are (1) Sexual purity in Surah Noor where no one would have been attributed at all were it not God's compassion (ie. Nubuwa and Wilayah) (2) Religious righteousness in scholars claiming to represent God and his Prophets teachings in Surah Nisa and they are contrasted to Ahlulbayt of Mohammad (s) and Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim (a) (3) Soothsayers and their Angels in Surah Najm - God says he knows who truly guards.

In all these places, God shows reputation is not reliable to know who is righteous, more pure, or has Taqwa let alone for people to choose their own leaders.

In the prayer of Zakariya (a) paraphrased differently, we see to be chosen is synonymous with being pure, but as we all meant to be pure, what it means in this context, is people who are pure in the eyes of people by proof. If you gather all the verses about this, you will see, to be attributed purity is synonymous with being chosen and exalted.   The people who are guaranteed guidance and not swerving from it are the chosen ones, no matter how much we may want to attribute non-chosen this status, the latter are volatile.

In the case of lacking designation from Nass in the Sunnah, the "chosen" of Zaidi resemble that of the chosen leaders of soothsayers, it's based on reputation, which is not reliable. This is while Twelvers claim all Twelve Successors have designation in the Sunnah.

2. The Spiritual Position of Welayat

I've checked Zaidi hadiths and they seem to confirm that Ahlulbayt (a) have Welayat Takweeni. Aside from that, is that Quran talk about opening doors to heaven by which unbelievers would think their eyes are intoxicated or they sorcery has afflicted them while they ascend therein, and then in flow to that, says he has put lanterns in the sky/heaven and made it an adornment for those who gaze. This spiritual reality is important of Ahlubayt (a). This cannot be attained by ijtehad, jihaad, deeds, it's a chosen position like God chooses people for Nubuwa, he chooses for this as well.

3. Examples of Chosen ones in Quran

The examples of the chosen ones in Quran of the past go with the twelver concept and not the Zaidi concept. The Zaidi concept has zero examples in Quran.

4. Twelve in the Quran

Months is not the proper translation in the 9th Surah. The context is about people going into extreme about God's chosen ones or scholars, worshiping likes of Isa or Uzair, and it has to do with the corruption of religion by scholars who also seek money from people and don't spend it in God's way. Month has not flow to this topic, but rather the translation as luminary who is sought for enlightenment by people (equivalent of what Marjaa means), is another translation for Shahr. Shahr originally meant that, and become the moon was parable wise like a scholar giving light, the lunar months were called that.  "Year" also should not be translated as year in the following verse, but rather, as "generic".

It would be better translated:

Indeed the number of luminaries to be turned to for enlightenment (after Mohammad) is twelve the day God created the heavens and earth, four of them are sacred that is the upright religion so do not wrong yourselves with respect to them and fight the polytheists all together as they fight you all together and know God is with guarding.

Postponing (of such a luminary) is only an addition in unbelief, wherewith those who disbelieve are led astray, violating it with respect to one generic and keeping it sacred with anther generic, that they may fit with a number that Allah has made sacred, and thus violate what Allah has made sacred; the evil of their doings is made adornment to them; and Allah does not guide the unbelieving people.

This not only flows better with the preceding verses, but, it does not make sense that the upright religion is months. The upright religion in Quran has been explained to be "human nature" "worshiping God sincerely" "submission" and so this would go with that, and if we recall the people either go to extreme regarding God's chosen (worship them) or fall short (don't exalt them according to their sacred holy nature), the name "Ali" is important, and is sacred category, and if we exalt the chosen ones without extreme or falling short, this is the upright religion. This is why "taking four of them being sacred"  and turning to the Twelve successors for enlightenment is said to be the upright religion.

Another place:

And from the people of Musa is a course/way that guides by the truth and by it they establish justice.

And we split them up into twelve branches as ways/courses, and We revealed to Moses, when his people asked him for water, [saying], ‘Strike the rock with your staff,’ whereat twelve springs gushed forth from it. Every people came to know its drinking-place. And We shaded them with clouds, and We sent down to them manna and quails: ‘Eat of the good things We have provided you.’ And they did not wrong Us, but they used to wrong [only] themselves

This translation would go well with Ibrahim (a) emphasized as umattan, as well as the talk of Asbat else where in Quran as branches of Ibrahim's (a) tree, and in hadiths Imam Hussain (a) is emphasized to be one of the Asbaat by Mohammad (s) and this exists in Sunni sources.

Another place:

Certainly We took the covenant from the Children of Israel, and We sent Messengers to them. Whenever a Messenger brought them that which was not to their liking, they would deny some, and some they would slay

Certainly Allah took the covenant from the children of Israel, and We raised among them twelve Captains And Allah said, ‘I am with you! Surely, if you maintain the prayer and give the zakat and have faith in My Messengers and support them and lend Allah a good loan, I will surely absolve you of your misdeeds, and I will surely admit you into gardens with streams running in them. But whoever of you disbelieves after that has certainly strayed from the right way.’

If you combine these verses, it's obviously, the Twelve Captains were the Messengers in Bani-Israel. And Captains pertains to a theme of ships that sail by the name of God and by God's command in Quran. 

This obviously telling us likewise in the past Allah (swt) took a covenant with Twelve, and it's implied he did with us. 5:12 particularly flows well with the Ghadeer event, as Surah 5 hints to that all over and has the two famous ghadeer verses as well as the event of the ring of Imam Ali (a) being given.

I want to also leave the remark, just as Sunnis don't keep in mind verses about Ahlulbayts of the past, and the verses about current Ahlulbayt Authority, Zaidi may feel the verses of Twelve are ambiguous but this is not proof that they are ambiguous. If you keep in mind the concept of Ahlulbayt in Quran in general, this is showing God manifested the number which is important, because getting the right Ahlulbayt (a) when no one is around to do miracles is important.

5. The Reward verses and concept of Ahlulbayt (a) in general.

The reward verses show Ahlulbayt (a) are in position as a means towards God and walking the straight path. This is emphasized with past Ahlulbayts (a) and we see they are all chosen by God and not by people. Again, I don't think hadithal thaqalain and concept of Ahlulbayt (a) in Quran aligns with Zaidi version.

6. For every people there is a Guide/Witness/Imam

These verses are dismissed, but they are very important. In case, of "for every people there is a guide", all hadiths point it to being Ali (a) after Mohammad (s) and the context of the verse itself, shows the Guide not only can perform miracles, but does so, and is one who miracles are a proof for. Every people has a guide who God reveals signs/miracles regarding, this is by context, of what the guide is.  It doesn't mean religious scholar.

All the prayers from Ahd, to Nudba, to others pertaining to Imam Mahdi (a) we ask to be guided by his hands and for us to see him.  Now everyone can have different interpretations, but the context of miracles in Quran are very important.  They are shown to people who are certain and who to turn to God often, and they accept miracles and increases them in faith. At the same time, if a soul is not ready, they may believe they would believe if shown miracles, but their souls rebels more at the moment of it and accuse the doer of being a deceiving sorcerer.

The trial is we have to pray, purify our hearts as much as possible, turn to God, and inshallah one day Imam Mahdi (a) will guide us and show us miracles by God's permission.  It will only happen by God's command and permission.

« Last Edit: August 04, 2021, 08:26:44 PM by Soccer »
By the name of God, the (universally) Compassionate, The (extremely) Compassionate; for the unity of the Togetherness; Is their unity in the journey in the winter and summer. So let them Worship the Lord of this household. The one who fed them from hunger and gave them security from fear.


Re: My view of Zaidi/Twelver debate.
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2021, 08:25:12 PM »
Quoted above post  by accident....
« Last Edit: August 04, 2021, 08:26:31 PM by Soccer »
By the name of God, the (universally) Compassionate, The (extremely) Compassionate; for the unity of the Togetherness; Is their unity in the journey in the winter and summer. So let them Worship the Lord of this household. The one who fed them from hunger and gave them security from fear.


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