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Self fulfilling prophecy

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zaid_ibn_ali

Self fulfilling prophecy
« on: December 04, 2016, 02:33:59 PM »
A self-fulfilling prophecy is a prediction that directly or indirectly causes itself to become true, by the very terms of the prophecy itself, due to positive feedback between belief and behavior.
A self-fulfilling prophecy is a belief that comes true because we are acting as if it is already true.
These are the definitions that come up on a quick search.

So much of shi'ism seems to be based on this.
The shia became aware of the 12 caliphs hadith, so picked & chose which 12 imams suited them to fulfill this. So many shia groups believed in so msny different imams & those that became known as the ithna ashari picked & chose up till Al Askari & fabricated the birth of his non existent son as the 12th imam.
Add to that the hadiths of the mahdi being from ahle bayt & would appear before the end of times. How many people amongst the shia claimed so & so as the mahdi? Some of those imams amongst the alids even claime it for themselves whilst many others never claimed it but so called shia followers of theirs attributed it to them.


Qizilbash_Safavid

Re: Self fulfilling prophecy
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2016, 08:58:11 AM »
A self-fulfilling prophecy is a prediction that directly or indirectly causes itself to become true, by the very terms of the prophecy itself, due to positive feedback between belief and behavior.
A self-fulfilling prophecy is a belief that comes true because we are acting as if it is already true.
These are the definitions that come up on a quick search.

So much of shi'ism seems to be based on this.
The shia became aware of the 12 caliphs hadith, so picked & chose which 12 imams suited them to fulfill this. So many shia groups believed in so msny different imams & those that became known as the ithna ashari picked & chose up till Al Askari & fabricated the birth of his non existent son as the 12th imam.
Add to that the hadiths of the mahdi being from ahle bayt & would appear before the end of times. How many people amongst the shia claimed so & so as the mahdi? Some of those imams amongst the alids even claime it for themselves whilst many others never claimed it but so called shia followers of theirs attributed it to them.

The hadith of the 12 caliphs cannot refer to the 12 caliphs that sunnis have because

1. Many of them were faasiqs (according to sunnis as well)
Marwan, Yazid, Harun Rashid

2. Bani Ummayah is not from quraish, Ummayah was an adopted son.

3. The original hadith which bukhari recorded had the names of the 12 Imams, however bukhari replaced it with (he said something which i did not hear)
"If it were not for Ali, Umar would have been destroyed!" (said in 70 different occasions)
-Umar Ibn al Khattab

Qizilbash_Safavid

Re: Self fulfilling prophecy
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2016, 10:36:09 AM »
A self-fulfilling prophecy is a prediction that directly or indirectly causes itself to become true, by the very terms of the prophecy itself, due to positive feedback between belief and behavior.
A self-fulfilling prophecy is a belief that comes true because we are acting as if it is already true.
These are the definitions that come up on a quick search.

So much of shi'ism seems to be based on this.
The shia became aware of the 12 caliphs hadith, so picked & chose which 12 imams suited them to fulfill this. So many shia groups believed in so msny different imams & those that became known as the ithna ashari picked & chose up till Al Askari & fabricated the birth of his non existent son as the 12th imam.
Add to that the hadiths of the mahdi being from ahle bayt & would appear before the end of times. How many people amongst the shia claimed so & so as the mahdi? Some of those imams amongst the alids even claime it for themselves whilst many others never claimed it but so called shia followers of theirs attributed it to them.

Also, the birth of the 12 Imam (whom your books say Isa as will admit that Mahdi is above him) has been documented in many Sunni books, stop reiterating that lie
"If it were not for Ali, Umar would have been destroyed!" (said in 70 different occasions)
-Umar Ibn al Khattab

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Self fulfilling prophecy
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2016, 01:24:37 PM »
Name me even one sunni source that confirms the birth of a supposed muhammad ibn hasan askari who is the mahdi.

Link

Re: Self fulfilling prophecy
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2016, 06:42:41 PM »
A self-fulfilling prophecy is a prediction that directly or indirectly causes itself to become true

Well, the hadith of the 12 Successors is meant that purpose. It's meant so that it directs the community into the rightful end of Imam numbers (stopping at twelve) and then using it to prove to other sects that they are the rightful sect.

There always needs to be a number, because, then everyone can claim any set of Imams and say they are the chosen ones, and they are following the true family of Mohammad.

However both Quran and hadiths designate Twelve, and God to protect the reminder made it that there is only one set of twelve names among all the sects.



Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Qizilbash_Safavid

Re: Self fulfilling prophecy
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2016, 09:34:20 PM »
Name me even one sunni source that confirms the birth of a supposed muhammad ibn hasan askari who is the mahdi.

Its been recorded in sunni books, just because your sheikhs say something doesn't mean its true, u accept everything those ugly mofos say. Anyways, for starters, the 12th Imams whom u guys always insult, his name is in masjid nabawi  8) 8) 8) , hows that for awkward

The Prophet (S) said: "Allah will bring out from concealment al-Mahdi from my Family and just before the Day of Judgment; even if only one day were to remain in the life of the world, and he will spread on this earth justice and equity and will eradicate tyranny and oppression."

Sunni references:

• Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, p99

This shows that Allah will keep him concealed from us.
As I mentioned, some Sunni scholars rejected that single report. The following are the name of some Sunni scholars who wrote that Imam al-Mahdi has already been born, and is the only son of Imam Hasan al-Askari (as), and he is alive and in occultation, and will re-appear to establish the government of Justice. With this, they are in agreement with the Shi’a. Their names are:

1.Kamal al-Din Ibn Talha, in his book "Matalib al-Su’aal Fi Manaqib Aal al-Rasool"

2.Sulayman Ibn Ibrahim al-Qundoozi, al-Hanafi (known as Khawajah Kalan), in his book "Yanabi’ al-Mawaddah”who has also established from important Sunni sources that love for Ahlul-Bayt is the only right path and the Islamic Way of Life.

3.Abu Abdullah Muhammad Ibn Yusuf Ganji, al-Shafi’i, (d. 658 AH), the author of "Al-Bayan fi Akhbar Sahib al-Zaman”and "Kifayah al-Talib".

4.Shaikh Nooruddin ‘Ali Ibn Muhammad Ibn Sabbagh, al-Maliki, from Mecca, in his book "al-Fusool al-Muhimmah", pp 310,319.

5.Ahmad Ibn Ibrahim Ibn Hashim al-Baladhuri is one of the great scholars and traditionists who also asserts the Imamat and occultation of the twelfth Imam in his book called "al-Hadith al-Mutasalsil"

6.Ibn Arabi (Muhyiddin Muhammad Ibn ‘Ali Ibn Muhammad al-Arabi), al-Hanbali, in his book "Al-Futuhat al-Makkia”(Chapter 366) discusses a detailed account of the birth of al-Mahdi, son of al-Askari (as), and of his re-appearance before the day of resurrection.

7.Ibn Khashab (Abu Muhammad Abdullah Ibn Ahmad Ibn Ahmad Ibn Khashab), has given a detailed account of the twelfth Imam in his biographical book called "Tawarikh Mawaleed al-A’imma wa Wafiyatihim"

8.Shaikh Abdullah Sha’rani (d. 905 AH), the celebrated Sufi, in his work "Yaqaqeet", Chapter 66, deals with the birth and the occultation of the twelfth Imam. Also He extensively talks about Imam al-Mahdi (as) in his other book "Aqa’id al-Akabir".

9.Shaikh Hasan Iraqi who accepts the twelfth Imam, praises Sha’rani as a pious and a learned ascetic, and narrates the story of Sha’rani’s meeting with the twelfth Imam.

10.Sayyid ‘Ali, known as Khawas, the teacher of Sha’rani, also a believer of the twelfth Imam, confirms what Shaikh Hasan asserted about the meeting of Sha’rani with the twelfth Imam.

11.Nooruddin Abdul Rahman Ibn Ahmad, known as Mulla Jami, in his book Shawahid al-Nubuwwah (The Evidence of Prophethood of Muhammad) gives an account of the birth of the twelfth Imam and his statement is in complete agreement with the Shi’a records.

12.Muhammad Ibn Mahmood al-Bukhari, al-Hanafi, known as Khawaja Parsa in his book "Fasl al-Khitab”gives the account of the birth, occultation, and re-appearance of the twelfth Imam.

13.Shaikh Abdul Haq Dehlawi, in his book "Jazb e Qulub", narrates the statements of Hakima, the daughter of the ninth Imam who was asked by the eleventh Imam, Imam al-Askari, to stay with Narjis, mother of the last Imam during the night at the end of which she gave birth to her son.

14.Sayyid Jamaluddin Husayni Muhaddith who is the author of the celebrated book "Rawdhat al-Ahbab". According to Dayar Bakri, Mulla ‘Ali Qari, Abdul Haqq Dehlawi, "Rawdhat al-Ahbab”is one of the reliable sources of reference. The author mentions the twelfth Imam in the most reverential terms. He states:

The auspicious birth of the pearl of the Vicegerency and the precious form of the mine of guidance took place on the 15th of Sha’ban in the year of 225 AH at Samarra. He has described the Imam in the following words:

• al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar (the expected Mahdi)

• al-Khalaf al-Salih (the righteous successor)

• Sahib al-Zaman (the master of the time)

15.al-Arif Abdul Rahman Sufi, in his works "Mir’at al-Asrar”(The Mirror of Mysteries) gives a detailed account of the birth, and the occultation of the twelfth Imam.

16.’Ali Akbar, son of Asadullah Maududi, in his book Mukashifaat (Visions), which is a commentary on "Nafahat al-Uns”by Abdurrahman Jami, asserts the existence of the Mahdi as being the pole of guidance after his father Imam Hasan al-Askari, who was also the pole of guidance and Imamat.

17.Malik al-Ulama Dulatabadi who is a well known scholar, in his work "Hidayat al-Saada”has confirmed the Imamat and the occultation of al-Mahdi.

18.Nasr Ibn ‘Ali Jahzami Nasri, one of the most reliable reporters of traditions whom Khateeb al-Baghdadi has praised him in his works on history, and Yusuf Ganji al-Shafi’i, in his book Manaqib has introduced Nasr as one of the masters of al-Bukhari and Muslim. Nasr asserts the existence of:

Qa’im Aale Muhammad (The ‘Support’ among the family of Muhammad), the one among the Imams of the House of the Prophet (S) whose duty is to establish Islam throughout the world.

19.Mulla ‘Ali Qari, one of the greatest traditionists, in his famous book, "Mirqat", talks about Imam al-Mahdi after mentioning the celebrated statement of the Holy Prophet (S) that after him there would be twelve successors (Caliphs). Mulla ‘Ali states whether they are in power or not makes no difference as they are the rightful Imams.

20.Kazi Jawad Sibti was a Christian but later became a Muslim. He wrote "Baraheen Sibtiyya”(Proofs forwarded by Sibti), which is a refutation of the Christian writers. He narrates the Prophecy from Ashaya (Joshua) concerning the coming of a man from the chosen branch of the chosen lineage of Adam who would be the seat of the spirit. In other words, he will be filled with the spirit of wisdom, sympathy, justice and knowledge and he will be God fearing. God will bestow on him a sound and glorying reason and make him firm.

His judgment would be based on hearing an external evidence, but he will have a guided insight about everything and judge people according to what they really are in their hearts. He further states that his method of judgment is peculiar to him and has not been adopted by any prophet or Vice-regent of God. The Muslims are unanimous that the Mahdi of this description shall be descendant of Fatimah, daughter of the holy Prophet (S). Particularly the view of the Shi’a seems to be real interpretation of this real prophecy.

21.Sibt Ibn al-Jawzi, al-Hanafi, (Shams al-Din Abul Mudhaffar Yusuf), the author of "Tathkirat al-Khawas", pp 325-328 gives the names of 22 people believed by Muslims to have lived various ages from 3,000 down to 300 years! He also writes about the twelfth Imam as follows

• He (al-Mahdi) is Muhammad Ibn al-Hasan Ibn ‘Ali Ibn Muhammad Ibn ‘Ali Ibn Musa al-Ridha

• His title is Abu Abdillah and Abul Qasim

• He is the last successor of the Prophet (S)

• He is the Last Imam of the House

• He is the authoritative proof of God (al-Hujjah)

• He is the master of time (Sahib al-Zaman)

• and he is the expected one (al-Muntadhar)

22. Abu Bakr Ahmad Ibn Hasan al-Bayhaqi, the famous Shafi’i jurist, has confirmed the birth of the son of al-Askari and his being as the expected Mahdi.

23.Shaikh Sadruddin, known as Hamavi, who has written a book about the Last Imam of the House of the Prophet (S). He quotes a tradition of the Holy Prophet (S) as follows

Prophet (S) said: "The learned one among my followers are in the rank of the Prophets from among the Children of Israel", also referring to the twelve Naqeeb (chiefs)of the Children of Israel (see Qur’an 5:12). But the last Wali, who is the last of the successors of the Prophet (S) and who is the Twelfth Wali in the chain of Awliaa, is al-Mahdi, "Sahib al-Zaman", his appellation and title should not be used for any one else.

24.Shaikh Ahmad Jami, (as quoted by Qundoozi, author of "Yanabi al- Mawaddah", and Qadhi Noorullah author of "Majalis al-Mu’mineen") has composed the following poem:

My heart is fine and bright with the love of Haydar

Next to Haydar, al-Hasan is our Guide and Leader.

The dust beneath the Shoes of al-Husayn

is the eyeliner (surmah) for my eyes.

al-Abideen, the ornament of all devotees

is like a crown on my head.

al-Baqir is the light of both my eyes.

The religion of Ja’far is true and the path of Musa is right.

O, loyal, ones: listen to me praising the King of Kings (al-Ridha)
who is buried in Khurasan.

A particle from the dust of his tomb is the cure of all pains

Leader of men of faith is al-Taqi, O dear Muslims

If you love al-Naqi in preference to all other people,

you have done the thing which is proper and right.

al-Askari is the light of the eyes of both Adam and the world.

Where can be found, in the world,

such a chief in command like al-Mahdi?

25. Shaikh Amir Ibn Basri has composed an eulogy called Qasidah Tayya. The composition contains theosophical lore, maxims, mystical points, and matter of etiquette. Here are some lines quoted:

O’ Imam al-Mahdi! How long will You be hidden?

Oblige us, O’ our father, with your return!

We feel sad the waiting time is prolonged.

For the sake of Thy Lord, bless us with your audience.

O the pole of being! Hasten, O our beloved!

Return, so that we may enjoy the sight.

Surely, it is a great a pleasure

for a lover to meet his beloved after a long absence.

26.Husayn Ibn Hamdan al-Husayni, in his book "al-Hidaya”mentions the twelfth Imam, the master of time, as the son of the eleventh Imam Hasan al-Askari.

27.The well known biographer, Ibn Khallakan in his book "Wafayat al-A’ayan", has given a brief account of the birth of the Imam.

28.Ibn al-Azraq, as quoted by Ibn Khallakan, asserts the existence of the twelfth Imam.

29.Ibn al-Wardi the historian, in his work asserts the birth of the son of al-Askari in 255 AH.

30.Sayyid Mu’min Shablanji in his work "Noor al-Absar”gives the genealogy of Imam Muhammad al-Mahdi (as), the twelfth Imam.

After these and many more, those who deny his birth and his present life have no proof against those who have accepted this fact, while they still recognize the correctness of traditions about Imam al-Mahdi. The Messenger of Allah (S) said:

"He who dies not knowing the Imam of his era, has died the death of al-Jahiliyya (Days of Ignorance; the era before Islam)."

READ IT AND WEEP
"If it were not for Ali, Umar would have been destroyed!" (said in 70 different occasions)
-Umar Ibn al Khattab

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Self fulfilling prophecy
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2016, 09:52:33 PM »
Please read my question again.
I said name me one sunni source that mentions the existence of a muhammad ibn Hasan askari as the mahdi.

Quoting from spurious non sunni secondary sources that came centuries after the salaf is just desperate.

Also the sunni figures you mention do not mention him being the son of hasan askari.

Try harder next time.


Qizilbash_Safavid

Re: Self fulfilling prophecy
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2016, 09:55:33 PM »
Please read my question again.
I said name me one sunni source that mentions the existence of a muhammad ibn Hasan askari as the mahdi.

Quoting from spurious non sunni secondary sources that came centuries after the salaf is just desperate.

Also the sunni figures you mention do not mention him being the son of hasan askari.

Try harder next time.

Sad lad, ur sheikhs always tell u the 11th Imam never had a son but according to ur scholars, turns out he did :))))

Fun fact: according to Sunnis six major Hadith books, Isa (as) will admit that the Mahdi (as) is above him in status

The version narrated by Muslim says: "… Then ‘Eesaa ibn Maryam (Peace be upon him) will descend and their leader will say, ‘Come and lead us in prayer,’ but he will say, ‘No, some of you are leaders over others as an honour from Allaah to this ummah.’" (Reported by Muslim, 225)
"If it were not for Ali, Umar would have been destroyed!" (said in 70 different occasions)
-Umar Ibn al Khattab

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Self fulfilling prophecy
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2016, 11:00:42 PM »
You have failed to answer my question again & again. You keep dodging it & diverting elsewhere.

That says it all

Qizilbash_Safavid

Re: Self fulfilling prophecy
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2016, 11:09:37 PM »
You have failed to answer my question again & again. You keep dodging it & diverting elsewhere.

That says it all

What's your question brother? You guys always say his birth never happened, it clearly did habibi, I even have a photo scan of Imam Dhahabi confirming it.
"If it were not for Ali, Umar would have been destroyed!" (said in 70 different occasions)
-Umar Ibn al Khattab

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Self fulfilling prophecy
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2016, 11:39:59 PM »
You have failed to answer my question again & again. You keep dodging it & diverting elsewhere.

That says it all

What's your question brother? You guys always say his birth never happened, it clearly did habibi, I even have a photo scan of Imam Dhahabi confirming it.


Scroll up.
I have asked clearly several times.

Can you quote what al dhahabi said?

100% he did not say that there existed muhammad ibn hasan askari. This is a fact.

Qizilbash_Safavid

Re: Self fulfilling prophecy
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2016, 11:58:13 PM »
You have failed to answer my question again & again. You keep dodging it & diverting elsewhere.

That says it all

What's your question brother? You guys always say his birth never happened, it clearly did habibi, I even have a photo scan of Imam Dhahabi confirming it.


Scroll up.
I have asked clearly several times.

Can you quote what al dhahabi said?

100% he did not say that there existed muhammad ibn hasan askari. This is a fact.

They may not have admitted he's in occultation or that he's the Mahdi , but his birth is well documented
"If it were not for Ali, Umar would have been destroyed!" (said in 70 different occasions)
-Umar Ibn al Khattab

Qizilbash_Safavid

Re: Self fulfilling prophecy
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2016, 12:05:22 AM »
You have failed to answer my question again & again. You keep dodging it & diverting elsewhere.

That says it all

What's your question brother? You guys always say his birth never happened, it clearly did habibi, I even have a photo scan of Imam Dhahabi confirming it.


Scroll up.
I have asked clearly several times.

Can you quote what al dhahabi said?

100% he did not say that there existed muhammad ibn hasan askari. This is a fact.

Word of advice: when ur sheikhs tell u something, it's not 100% true :)

Do not follow the majority like the Quran says
"If it were not for Ali, Umar would have been destroyed!" (said in 70 different occasions)
-Umar Ibn al Khattab

MuslimK

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  • Religion: Sunni
Re: Self fulfilling prophecy
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2016, 12:08:29 AM »
He didn't confirm his so called birth. You learned this lie from Ayatollah Qazvini of Velayet TV who attributed this to Dhahabi. He was exposed on Iranian Sunni Channels. 


Scroll up.
I have asked clearly several times.

Can you quote what al dhahabi said?

100% he did not say that there existed muhammad ibn hasan askari. This is a fact.

He can't.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2016, 12:10:18 AM by MuslimK »
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

Qizilbash_Safavid

Re: Self fulfilling prophecy
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2016, 12:11:30 AM »
He didn't confirm his so called birth. You learned this lie from Ayatollah Qazvini of Velayet TV who attributed this to Dhahabi. He was exposed on Iranian Sunni Channels. 


Scroll up.
I have asked clearly several times.

Can you quote what al dhahabi said?

100% he did not say that there existed muhammad ibn hasan askari. This is a fact.

He can't.

lol Abu Muslim khorosani from facebook. Ur excuses were always "he was just quoting what Shias say"
"If it were not for Ali, Umar would have been destroyed!" (said in 70 different occasions)
-Umar Ibn al Khattab

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Self fulfilling prophecy
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2016, 12:35:29 AM »
Please just quote the full passage from dhahabi.


Qizilbash_Safavid

Re: Self fulfilling prophecy
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2016, 12:40:56 AM »
Please just quote the full passage from dhahabi.
"If it were not for Ali, Umar would have been destroyed!" (said in 70 different occasions)
-Umar Ibn al Khattab

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Self fulfilling prophecy
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2016, 01:07:43 AM »
The full passage I meant would include the part you put up but also the bits before & after.

Please show these so we know if dhahabi was merely mentioning what the shia believe or if he himself was admitting the existence of muhammad ibn hasan askari.

Can you quote these passages as quick as you write your insults?


Qizilbash_Safavid

Re: Self fulfilling prophecy
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2016, 01:14:23 AM »
The full passage I meant would include the part you put up but also the bits before & after.

Please show these so we know if dhahabi was merely mentioning what the shia believe or if he himself was admitting the existence of muhammad ibn hasan askari.

Can you quote these passages as quick as you write your insults?
"If it were not for Ali, Umar would have been destroyed!" (said in 70 different occasions)
-Umar Ibn al Khattab

Qizilbash_Safavid

Re: Self fulfilling prophecy
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2016, 01:26:52 AM »
The full passage I meant would include the part you put up but also the bits before & after.

Please show these so we know if dhahabi was merely mentioning what the shia believe or if he himself was admitting the existence of muhammad ibn hasan askari.

Can you quote these passages as quick as you write your insults?

Scary isn't it? ur sheikhs were wrong about something again!

I want to start a forum about Imaamah in the quran and destroy this other famous sunni sheikh lie spread in the masses!
"If it were not for Ali, Umar would have been destroyed!" (said in 70 different occasions)
-Umar Ibn al Khattab

 

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