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Shiaism in a nutshell

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Hadrami

Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2017, 01:13:16 AM »
Have a dig at this;

Truly, ‘Ali is from me and I am from him (inna ʿAlī minnī wa anā minhu), and he is the walī (patron/spiritual master) of every believer after me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 19, No. 4636; Ahmad b. Shu‘ayb al-Nasa’i, Khasa’is Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, Tehran 1998, 129)

‘Ali is with the Qurʾān and the Qurʾān is with ‘Ali. They will not separate from each other until they return to me at the [paradisal pool] (al-ḥawḍ).

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 927, No. 4685)

[To ‘Ali]: Are you not happy that you should have in relation to me the rank of Aaron in relation to Moses, except that there is no prophet after me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(Ahmad b. Shu‘ayb al-Nasa’i, Khasa’is Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, Tehran 1998, 76)

Three things were revealed to me regarding ʿAlī: he is the leader of the Muslims, the guide of the pious and chief of the radiantly devout (sayyidu’l-muslimīn, imāmu’l-muttaqīn, wa qāʾidu’l-ghurra’lmuḥajjalīn).

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 936, No. 4723)

Gazing upon ʿAlī is an act of worship (al-naẓar ilā ʿAlī ʿibāda).))

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 938, No. 4736)

May God have mercy on ʿAlī. O God, make the truth revolve around ʿAlī wherever he turns (adiri’l-ḥaqq maʿahu ḥaythu dāra)

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 927, No. 4686)

‘Ali is as my own soul (ka-nafsī).

Prophet Muhammad,
(Ahmad b. Shu‘ayb al-Nasa’i, Khasa’is Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, Tehran 1998, 104)

You [‘Ali] are from me and I am from you (anta minnī wa anā minka).

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 924, No. 4672)

Whoever obeys ʿAli obeys me, and whoever disobeys him disobeys me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 925, No. 4678)

[To ‘Ali]: You will clarify for my community that over which they will differ after me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 926, No. 4678)

There is one amongst you who will fight for the taʿwīl [spiritual interpretation] of the Qurʾān as I have fought for its tanzīl [literal revelation].’ Abū Bakr asked, ‘Is it I?’. The Prophet said, ‘No’. ʿUmar asked, ‘Is it I?’. The Prophet said, ‘No, it is the one who is mending the sandal.’ The Prophet had given ʿAlī his sandal to mend.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 926, No. 4679)

O ʿAli, whoever separates himself from me separates himself from God, and whoever separates himself from you, O ʿAli, separates himself from me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 927, No. 4682)

‘Ali is from me and I am from him (ʿAlī minnī wa anā minhu), and nobody can fulfill my duty but myself and ʿAli.

Prophet Muhammad,
(Ahmad b. Shu‘ayb al-Nasa’i, Khasa’is Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, Tehran 1998, 106)

He whose mawlā [master] I am, this ʿAlī is his mawla (man kuntu mawlāhu fa-ʿAlī mawlāhu).

Prophet Muhammad,
(Cited in numerous Sunni Muslim Hadith sources listed here)

and whats this gotta to do with imam who intentionally lied and gave wrong religious rulings to people? Shia always sidetrack when they dont know how to reply 😂

Ijtaba

Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2017, 01:22:37 AM »
and whats this gotta to do with imam who intentionally lied and gave wrong religious rulings to people? Shia always sidetrack when they dont know how to reply 😂

Can you provide authentic Shi'ite narrations where our Aimmah (a.s) intentionally lied & gave wrong religious rulings to people?

Hadrami

Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2017, 01:29:44 AM »
and whats this gotta to do with imam who intentionally lied and gave wrong religious rulings to people? Shia always sidetrack when they dont know how to reply 😂

Can you provide authentic Shi'ite narrations where our Aimmah (a.s) intentionally lied & gave wrong religious rulings to people?
Is this a real question or a joke? You don't know that your own scholars put a stamp on shia ahadith as taqiyya, because those were wrong rulings or went against what they believe as correct? Heaps of sample here http://www.twelvershia.net/2014/05/29/taqiyya-the-other-face/

Hadrami

Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2017, 01:37:54 AM »
Looks like the main culprit of confusion in shiasm was imam  ;D

[Ahmad ibn Idris from Muhamad ibn ‘Abdul-Jabbar from al-Hassan ibn `Ali from Tha’alabah ibn Maymoun from Zurarah ibn A’ayun that he said: I asked Imam al-Baqir (as) a question so the Imam gave me the answer then another man came and asked the same question so the Imam gave him a different answer, then another one came and asked about it so the Imam gave him a completely different answer than both of us. when both men left I asked the Imam: “O son of Rassul Allah, two men from ‘Iraq and from your Shia came to ask you but you gave each of them different answers.” He replied: “O Zurarah, this is good for us so that we may remain safer because if you all agree on this then the people will believe in it and they would be guided to us but we will not remain for long.”

Later I said to his son al-Sadiq (as): “Your Shia always walk away from you with different opinions and answers” so he gave me the same reply as his father.]

source: al-Kafi 1/65.
al-Majlisi said: Muwaththaq like the Sahih.
al-Behbudi said: Sahih.

Read the red part, imam clearly didnt want many people to believe and be guided.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 01:39:30 AM by Hadrami »

iceman

Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2017, 02:06:52 AM »
Looks like the main culprit of confusion in shiasm was imam  ;D

[Ahmad ibn Idris from Muhamad ibn ‘Abdul-Jabbar from al-Hassan ibn `Ali from Tha’alabah ibn Maymoun from Zurarah ibn A’ayun that he said: I asked Imam al-Baqir (as) a question so the Imam gave me the answer then another man came and asked the same question so the Imam gave him a different answer, then another one came and asked about it so the Imam gave him a completely different answer than both of us. when both men left I asked the Imam: “O son of Rassul Allah, two men from ‘Iraq and from your Shia came to ask you but you gave each of them different answers.” He replied: “O Zurarah, this is good for us so that we may remain safer because if you all agree on this then the people will believe in it and they would be guided to us but we will not remain for long.”

Later I said to his son al-Sadiq (as): “Your Shia always walk away from you with different opinions and answers” so he gave me the same reply as his father.]

source: al-Kafi 1/65.
al-Majlisi said: Muwaththaq like the Sahih.
al-Behbudi said: Sahih.

Read the red part, imam clearly didnt want many people to believe and be guided.

Once again do you believe in every single thing written in your authentic books?

muslim720

Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2017, 04:55:03 AM »
Have a dig at this;

Truly, ‘Ali is from me and I am from him (inna ʿAlī minnī wa anā minhu), and he is the walī (patron/spiritual master) of every believer after me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 19, No. 4636; Ahmad b. Shu‘ayb al-Nasa’i, Khasa’is Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, Tehran 1998, 129)

‘Ali is with the Qurʾān and the Qurʾān is with ‘Ali. They will not separate from each other until they return to me at the [paradisal pool] (al-ḥawḍ).

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 927, No. 4685)

[To ‘Ali]: Are you not happy that you should have in relation to me the rank of Aaron in relation to Moses, except that there is no prophet after me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(Ahmad b. Shu‘ayb al-Nasa’i, Khasa’is Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, Tehran 1998, 76)

Three things were revealed to me regarding ʿAlī: he is the leader of the Muslims, the guide of the pious and chief of the radiantly devout (sayyidu’l-muslimīn, imāmu’l-muttaqīn, wa qāʾidu’l-ghurra’lmuḥajjalīn).

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 936, No. 4723)

Gazing upon ʿAlī is an act of worship (al-naẓar ilā ʿAlī ʿibāda).))

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 938, No. 4736)

May God have mercy on ʿAlī. O God, make the truth revolve around ʿAlī wherever he turns (adiri’l-ḥaqq maʿahu ḥaythu dāra)

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 927, No. 4686)

‘Ali is as my own soul (ka-nafsī).

Prophet Muhammad,
(Ahmad b. Shu‘ayb al-Nasa’i, Khasa’is Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, Tehran 1998, 104)

You [‘Ali] are from me and I am from you (anta minnī wa anā minka).

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 924, No. 4672)

Whoever obeys ʿAli obeys me, and whoever disobeys him disobeys me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 925, No. 4678)

[To ‘Ali]: You will clarify for my community that over which they will differ after me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 926, No. 4678)

There is one amongst you who will fight for the taʿwīl [spiritual interpretation] of the Qurʾān as I have fought for its tanzīl [literal revelation].’ Abū Bakr asked, ‘Is it I?’. The Prophet said, ‘No’. ʿUmar asked, ‘Is it I?’. The Prophet said, ‘No, it is the one who is mending the sandal.’ The Prophet had given ʿAlī his sandal to mend.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 926, No. 4679)

O ʿAli, whoever separates himself from me separates himself from God, and whoever separates himself from you, O ʿAli, separates himself from me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 927, No. 4682)

‘Ali is from me and I am from him (ʿAlī minnī wa anā minhu), and nobody can fulfill my duty but myself and ʿAli.

Prophet Muhammad,
(Ahmad b. Shu‘ayb al-Nasa’i, Khasa’is Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, Tehran 1998, 106)

He whose mawlā [master] I am, this ʿAlī is his mawla (man kuntu mawlāhu fa-ʿAlī mawlāhu).

Prophet Muhammad,
(Cited in numerous Sunni Muslim Hadith sources listed here)

The extrapolations and fabrications Shias have made from these mostly weak reports are too many to count.  In that YouTube discussion, Shia Blade Runner was claiming that the Prophet (saw) said, "whoever curses Ali curses me".  This is on top of "whoever angers Fatima angers me" (though that one backfires because the Prophet (saw) said that to Imam Ali (ra) and it is recorded in Shia books).  Then you have "Hussain is from me and I am from Hussain".  Also, the countless versions of "O Ali, your Shia......"

Recently, I was looking for Minhaj us Sunnah in English but could not find anything.  However, a brother posted an excerpt from the book.  He shared:
"Chapter 54. The saying of the Prophet (saw) about Ali (ra): 'You are from and I am from you' does not prove Imamate of Ali (ra).  The Rafidhi (al-Hilli) says that the Prophet (saw) said to Ali (ra): 'You are from me I am from you'.  In response to that we say: The Hadith is Saheeh and both Bukhari and Muslim has narrated it.  When Ali, Jafar and Zayd were arguing over the daughter of Hamza, the Prophet (saw) gave her to her aunt.  He (saw) then said to Ali (ra): 'You are from me and I am from you'. And to Jafar he said 'Your Adab (manner) resembles mine'. And to Zayd he (saw) said: 'You are my brother and my Mawla (friend etc)'.  It should be said that the Prophet (saw) said the same thing to other Companions as well.  In Sahihayn (Bukhari & Muslim) it has been narrated from Abu Musa ashari that the Prophet (saw) said to the Ashari tribe 'They are from me and I am from them'.  In addition, the Prophet (saw) said to [the Companion] Julaybib: 'He is from me and I am from him.'  This is narrated in Muslim...

It becomes clear that the saying of the Prophet (saw) is not specific for Ali but other people were addressed with the same statement aswell. Therefore, it doesn't prove the Imamate of Ali or his superiority (over Abubakr and Omar)."

So let us recap:

1.  The Prophet (saw) said to Jafar (ra) that his adab resembled the adab of the Prophet (saw).

2.  The Prophet (saw) said to Zayd (ra) that he is the Prophet's (saw) brother and mawla (whichever definition the Shias want, lol).

3.  The Prophet (saw) said to the Ashari tribe that they are from him and he is from them.

4.  The Prophet (saw) said to Julaybib (ra) that he is from the Prophet (saw) and the Prophet (saw) is from him.

Now what?

iceman

Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2017, 05:19:44 AM »
Have a dig at this;

Truly, ‘Ali is from me and I am from him (inna ʿAlī minnī wa anā minhu), and he is the walī (patron/spiritual master) of every believer after me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 19, No. 4636; Ahmad b. Shu‘ayb al-Nasa’i, Khasa’is Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, Tehran 1998, 129)

‘Ali is with the Qurʾān and the Qurʾān is with ‘Ali. They will not separate from each other until they return to me at the [paradisal pool] (al-ḥawḍ).

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 927, No. 4685)

[To ‘Ali]: Are you not happy that you should have in relation to me the rank of Aaron in relation to Moses, except that there is no prophet after me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(Ahmad b. Shu‘ayb al-Nasa’i, Khasa’is Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, Tehran 1998, 76)

Three things were revealed to me regarding ʿAlī: he is the leader of the Muslims, the guide of the pious and chief of the radiantly devout (sayyidu’l-muslimīn, imāmu’l-muttaqīn, wa qāʾidu’l-ghurra’lmuḥajjalīn).

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 936, No. 4723)

Gazing upon ʿAlī is an act of worship (al-naẓar ilā ʿAlī ʿibāda).))

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 938, No. 4736)

May God have mercy on ʿAlī. O God, make the truth revolve around ʿAlī wherever he turns (adiri’l-ḥaqq maʿahu ḥaythu dāra)

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 927, No. 4686)

‘Ali is as my own soul (ka-nafsī).

Prophet Muhammad,
(Ahmad b. Shu‘ayb al-Nasa’i, Khasa’is Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, Tehran 1998, 104)

You [‘Ali] are from me and I am from you (anta minnī wa anā minka).

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 924, No. 4672)

Whoever obeys ʿAli obeys me, and whoever disobeys him disobeys me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 925, No. 4678)

[To ‘Ali]: You will clarify for my community that over which they will differ after me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 926, No. 4678)

There is one amongst you who will fight for the taʿwīl [spiritual interpretation] of the Qurʾān as I have fought for its tanzīl [literal revelation].’ Abū Bakr asked, ‘Is it I?’. The Prophet said, ‘No’. ʿUmar asked, ‘Is it I?’. The Prophet said, ‘No, it is the one who is mending the sandal.’ The Prophet had given ʿAlī his sandal to mend.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 926, No. 4679)

O ʿAli, whoever separates himself from me separates himself from God, and whoever separates himself from you, O ʿAli, separates himself from me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 927, No. 4682)

‘Ali is from me and I am from him (ʿAlī minnī wa anā minhu), and nobody can fulfill my duty but myself and ʿAli.

Prophet Muhammad,
(Ahmad b. Shu‘ayb al-Nasa’i, Khasa’is Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, Tehran 1998, 106)

He whose mawlā [master] I am, this ʿAlī is his mawla (man kuntu mawlāhu fa-ʿAlī mawlāhu).

Prophet Muhammad,
(Cited in numerous Sunni Muslim Hadith sources listed here)

The extrapolations and fabrications Shias have made from these mostly weak reports are too many to count.  In that YouTube discussion, Shia Blade Runner was claiming that the Prophet (saw) said, "whoever curses Ali curses me".  This is on top of "whoever angers Fatima angers me" (though that one backfires because the Prophet (saw) said that to Imam Ali (ra) and it is recorded in Shia books).  Then you have "Hussain is from me and I am from Hussain".  Also, the countless versions of "O Ali, your Shia......"

Recently, I was looking for Minhaj us Sunnah in English but could not find anything.  However, a brother posted an excerpt from the book.  He shared:
"Chapter 54. The saying of the Prophet (saw) about Ali (ra): 'You are from and I am from you' does not prove Imamate of Ali (ra).  The Rafidhi (al-Hilli) says that the Prophet (saw) said to Ali (ra): 'You are from me I am from you'.  In response to that we say: The Hadith is Saheeh and both Bukhari and Muslim has narrated it.  When Ali, Jafar and Zayd were arguing over the daughter of Hamza, the Prophet (saw) gave her to her aunt.  He (saw) then said to Ali (ra): 'You are from me and I am from you'. And to Jafar he said 'Your Adab (manner) resembles mine'. And to Zayd he (saw) said: 'You are my brother and my Mawla (friend etc)'.  It should be said that the Prophet (saw) said the same thing to other Companions as well.  In Sahihayn (Bukhari & Muslim) it has been narrated from Abu Musa ashari that the Prophet (saw) said to the Ashari tribe 'They are from me and I am from them'.  In addition, the Prophet (saw) said to [the Companion] Julaybib: 'He is from me and I am from him.'  This is narrated in Muslim...

It becomes clear that the saying of the Prophet (saw) is not specific for Ali but other people were addressed with the same statement aswell. Therefore, it doesn't prove the Imamate of Ali or his superiority (over Abubakr and Omar)."

So let us recap:

1.  The Prophet (saw) said to Jafar (ra) that his adab resembled the adab of the Prophet (saw).

2.  The Prophet (saw) said to Zayd (ra) that he is the Prophet's (saw) brother and mawla (whichever definition the Shias want, lol).

3.  The Prophet (saw) said to the Ashari tribe that they are from him and he is from them.

4.  The Prophet (saw) said to Julaybib (ra) that he is from the Prophet (saw) and the Prophet (saw) is from him.

Now what?

The Prophet said to Ali;

"You are to me as Haroon was to Musa"

Now what was Haroon to Musa?

Is it hard to figure out? No it is not. Just hard for some to accept and digest.

For us this is enough to know that Ali was a Wasi, Wali and Wazeer [successor] to Muhammad just as Haroon was to Musa.

muslim720

Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2017, 05:32:22 AM »
The Prophet said to Ali;

"You are to me as Haroon was to Musa"

Now what was Haroon to Musa?

Is it hard to figure out? No it is not. Just hard for some to accept and digest.

For us this is enough to know that Ali was a Wasi, Wali and Wazeer [successor] to Muhammad just as Haroon was to Musa.

May Allah (swt) admit Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah (rah) to the highest level in Paradise; with one hadith, he destroyed Al-Hilli and with his knowledge, I decimated your entire list, lol.

So now you are reaching out for straws, like a drowning person.  Did you not know that Haroon (asws) did not succeed Musa (asws)?  In fact, Haroon (asws) died in the lifetime of Musa (asws).  Also, Imam Ali (ra) was not the only person to be left behind by the Prophet (saw) to look after those who could not go to war (women, children, elderly).  Lastly, the Prophet (saw) said, "If there was a prophet after me, then it would be Umar".  The scholars say that this was said specifically regarding Umar (ra) and not anyone else, not even Abu Bakr (ra) who we rank higher than Umar (ra), because Umar (ra) had the qualities and characteristics of being a prophet.  However, prophethood and all sorts of divine revelation ended with the Prophet (saw).

What is your next excuse?

iceman

Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2017, 05:38:33 AM »
The Prophet said to Ali;

"You are to me as Haroon was to Musa"

Now what was Haroon to Musa?

Is it hard to figure out? No it is not. Just hard for some to accept and digest.

For us this is enough to know that Ali was a Wasi, Wali and Wazeer [successor] to Muhammad just as Haroon was to Musa.

May Allah (swt) admit Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah (rah) to the highest level in Paradise; with one hadith, he destroyed Al-Hilli and with his knowledge, I decimated your entire list, lol.

So now you are reaching out for straws, like a drowning person.  Did you not know that Haroon (asws) did not succeed Musa (asws)?  In fact, Haroon (asws) died in the lifetime of Musa (asws).  Also, Imam Ali (ra) was not the only person to be left behind by the Prophet (saw) to look after those who could not go to war (women, children, elderly).  Lastly, the Prophet (saw) said, "If there was a prophet after me, then it would be Umar".  The scholars say that this was said specifically regarding Umar (ra) and not anyone else, not even Abu Bakr (ra) who we rank higher than Umar (ra), because Umar (ra) had the qualities and characteristics of being a prophet.  However, prophethood and all sorts of divine revelation ended with the Prophet (saw).

What is your next excuse?

LOL. What ever it is you can keep crossing it out be it you or who ever. The crossing out tells how much the truth hurts. So what happened to the red box at the bottom left of my posts? Nobody dared to answer that till yet. Would you like to give it a shot?

iceman

Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2017, 05:42:45 AM »
As far as we are concerned Ali succeeded Muhammad and certain people just could not accept and digest it. So they made their own plans and decisions and then used means of violence and threatening behavior to impose that decision. History is there. Rub it out if you want to or can.

muslim720

Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2017, 05:52:29 AM »
LOL. What ever it is you can keep crossing it out be it you or who ever. The crossing out tells how much the truth hurts. So what happened to the red box at the bottom left of my posts? Nobody dared to answer that till yet. Would you like to give it a shot?

I see a line through your comments.  Everything you type appears to be crossed-out or with a line through the text.  I do not know if it is by accident or design, however, the "truth" you speak of has already been refuted.  Your comeback "You are to me as Haroon was to Musa" has long been acknowledged by Shia propaganda sites and they now admit that while Haroon (asws) died before Musa (asws), so he did not succeed Musa (asws), that the point still (somehow) stands.  I suggest you read it and get up-to-speed.

As for the red box, the only red box I know and have seen are the ones outside grocery shops.  They dispense Blu-Ray and DVD movies.  If you have a movie you want to check out, let me know.  I will cover the rental cost so long as you return it on time :)

muslim720

Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2017, 05:57:14 AM »
As far as we are concerned Ali succeeded Muhammad and certain people just could not accept and digest it. So they made their own plans and decisions and then used means of violence and threatening behavior to impose that decision. History is there. Rub it out if you want to or can.

As far as you are concerned, you were a mere 10 to 15 percent of the ummah and will forever remain as such.  If you know Dr. Hosein Nasr - an Iranian professor and scholar at George Washington University - watch some of his YouTube videos.  In one, he explains that it is common in religion to see a certain sect become the majority and then fizzle out with Islam being the only exception.  No other religion has shown this trend where one group, one sect, has been the dominant sect and always enjoying the 85 to 90 percent majority since the outset of sectarian divide.  Like many other Shia sects, the Ithna Asharis may not be amongst us in the next few hundred years.  It would not have been the dominant Shia sect if not for Safavvids.

Ijtaba

Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2017, 01:39:29 PM »
Looks like the main culprit of confusion in shiasm was imam  ;D

[Ahmad ibn Idris from Muhamad ibn ‘Abdul-Jabbar from al-Hassan ibn `Ali from Tha’alabah ibn Maymoun from Zurarah ibn A’ayun that he said: I asked Imam al-Baqir (as) a question so the Imam gave me the answer then another man came and asked the same question so the Imam gave him a different answer, then another one came and asked about it so the Imam gave him a completely different answer than both of us. when both men left I asked the Imam: “O son of Rassul Allah, two men from ‘Iraq and from your Shia came to ask you but you gave each of them different answers.” He replied: “O Zurarah, this is good for us so that we may remain safer because if you all agree on this then the people will believe in it and they would be guided to us but we will not remain for long.”

Later I said to his son al-Sadiq (as): “Your Shia always walk away from you with different opinions and answers” so he gave me the same reply as his father.]

source: al-Kafi 1/65.
al-Majlisi said: Muwaththaq like the Sahih.
al-Behbudi said: Sahih.

Read the red part, imam clearly didnt want many people to believe and be guided.

I have one question.

Isn't ALLAH (SWT) powerful to guide whole humanity to HIMSELF?

If yes then why do we see many people following the path of misguidance.

Ijtaba

Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2017, 02:11:17 PM »
Is this a real question or a joke? You don't know that your own scholars put a stamp on shia ahadith as taqiyya, because those were wrong rulings or went against what they believe as correct? Heaps of sample here http://www.twelvershia.net/2014/05/29/taqiyya-the-other-face/

First we need to know what is the duty and role of an Imam.

Narrated Ibn `Umar:
I heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) saying, "All of you are Guardians." Yunis said: Ruzaiq bin Hukaim wrote to Ibn Shihab while I was with him at Wadi-al-Qura saying, "Shall I lead the Jumua prayer?" Ruzaiq was working on the land (i.e. farming) and there was a group of Sudanese people and some others with him; Ruzaiq was then the Governor of Aila. Ibn Shihab wrote (to Ruzaiq) ordering him to lead the Jumua prayer and telling him that Salim told him that `Abdullah bin `Umar had said, "I heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'All of you are guardians and responsible for your wards and the things under your care. The Imam (i.e. ruler) is the guardian of his subjects and is responsible for them and a man is the guardian of his family and is responsible for them. A woman is the guardian of her husband's house and is responsible for it. A servant is the guardian of his master's belongings and is responsible for them.' I thought that he also said, 'A man is the guardian of his father's property and is responsible for it. All of you are guardians and responsible for your wards and the things under your care."


Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 893
In-book reference : Book 11, Hadith 18
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 2, Book 13, Hadith 18


According to us Shias: Imam (a.s) is a person who is guardian of his subjects and is responsible for their both worldly and religious affairs.

If two shias comes to Imam (a.s) asking same question and Imam (a.s) answers them with complete opposite answer then they both should follow the orders of Imam (a.s). For e.g. a question is put forward regarding how to drink water and Imam (a.s) answers one person to drink water while standing and another person to drink water while sitting. In this case they both should follow the Imam (a.s) as by doing so they would be obeying the Imam (a.s) And according to our (i.e. Shi'ite) view people obeying Imam (a.s) would enter Jannah.

On the other hand, a non-shia comes to Imam (a.s) and asks him question regarding some issue then whether Imam (a.s) gives him correct answer or gives him answer according to his own (i.e. non-shia) fiqh it does not matter because even if non-shia acts according to correct answer it won't save him because he acted correctly but without acknowledging the status and authority of the Imam (a.s) as being divinely appointed by GOD.

You may disagree with what I said above. I only stated what we shias believe.

Hadrami

Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2017, 03:00:38 PM »
If two shias comes to Imam (a.s) asking same question and Imam (a.s) answers them with complete opposite answer then they both should follow the orders of Imam (a.s). For e.g. a question is put forward regarding how to drink water and Imam (a.s) answers one person to drink water while standing and another person to drink water while sitting. In this case they both should follow the Imam (a.s) as by doing so they would be obeying the Imam (a.s) And according to our (i.e. Shi'ite) view people obeying Imam (a.s) would enter Jannah.
so imam is guiding his followers by commanding his followers to go against what Allah & His Messenger has prescribed. Your "explanation" makes it sound even worse now. Everytime shia try to get out of a
hole, you guys only go deeper into it 😂
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 03:02:56 PM by Hadrami »

Ijtaba

Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2017, 03:41:16 PM »
so imam is guiding his followers by commanding his followers to go against what Allah & His Messenger has prescribed. Your "explanation" makes it sound even worse now. Everytime shia try to get out of a
hole, you guys only go deeper into it 😂

Not according to us.

According to us Imam (a.s) is guiding his (a.s) followers to go with what ALLAH (SWT) & HIS Messenger (s.a.w.w) has prescribed.

Hadrami

Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2017, 08:06:23 AM »
so imam is guiding his followers by commanding his followers to go against what Allah & His Messenger has prescribed. Your "explanation" makes it sound even worse now. Everytime shia try to get out of a
hole, you guys only go deeper into it 😂

Not according to us.

According to us Imam (a.s) is guiding his (a.s) followers to go with what ALLAH (SWT) & HIS Messenger (s.a.w.w) has prescribed.

ok, so giving wrong religious rulings which shia own scholars believed were incorrect is guidance. Man, the more you answer the deeper hole you get into 😂

whoaretheshia

Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2017, 12:52:46 AM »
Imam is a guide, but he needs to misguide many times


Actually, the vast majority of our Fiqh can be easily discerned, and our Aqeeah is pretty much undisputed. Not only do we Shia's all know where to put our hands to pray, we do not have wildly different ideas about what Allah [swt] is. If i wanted to become a Sunni tomorrow, i would not even know how the Prophet [saw] placed his hands. Was it by the sides - or is this a B'idah? Was it below the belly, in the middle, or on the chest ?

Perhaps what is unforgivable is the differences in Aqeedah. Does Allah have a place and position, two feet, two hands, two fingers, a shin, eyes, but nothing like ours, or are we to say we don't know what they mean at all and deny Allah literally has any of these ? You have enormous divisions in Aqeedah between the Ashari and Maturidi, and the Salafi-Athari, all strangely claiming to accept the very same hadith books and classical scholars but coming out with wildly divergent opinions on the most fundamental issues.


Quote
Imam is brave, but he needs to hide 1000+ years due to afraid getting killed

My dear brother, were the companions of the cave not preserved by Allah [swt] for hundreds of years after fleeing and oppressive ruler? Is Isa [as] not someone who was raised and will be returned at the end of times to kill Djall, and will even offer Salah [according to Muslim] behind al-Mahdi? If Allah [swt] wills to take an individual and keep him away for however long he wishes, within his plan and decree, who are we to criticise it ?

Imam al-Mahdi isn't in Ghaybah merely because he 'will be killed'. He is there because Allah [swt] has decreed the Mahdi, from the Ahlulbayt of Muhammed [saw], through the line of Fatima, has a special role at the end of times, and thus by the will and command of Allah has decreed he be in Ghaybah until the appointed time which he will fulfil the prophecy all Muslim agree upon. No doubt his life was in danger, and he could have continued to just write letters to representatives, but we find Allah did not decree this after a certain point.

Quote
Imam is the leader of Muslim army, but he avoids facing his enemy, because he is afraid to be killed

He has a role at the end of times. He is awaiting the decree from Allah [swt]. If Allah [swt] wanted he could have made Muhammed [saw] effortlessly take over the entire world, and united us all as one people, but Allah [swt] decrees certain things in his infinite wisdom and to test us.

Quote
Imam is needed to guide people, because he is the only one who can't make mistake, but shia scholars who will make mistakes are guiding people (and misguide too intentionally like imam) In short, whatever shia say and believe, they will also believe and in practise doing the opposite

I would kindly like you to clarify this.
DISCLAIMER: I AM AWAY UNTIL THE START OF THE NEW YEAR, PM ME IF I OWE YOU A REPLY, MAY ALLAH HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US, FI AMANILLAH
" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

whoaretheshia

Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2017, 12:56:06 AM »
Imam is a guide, but he needs to misguide many times


Actually, the vast majority of our Fiqh can be easily discerned, and our Aqeeah is pretty much undisputed. Not only do we Shia's all know where to put our hands to pray, we do not have wildly different ideas about what Allah [swt] is. If i wanted to become a Sunni tomorrow, i would not even know how the Prophet [saw] placed his hands. Was it by the sides - or is this a B'idah? Was it below the belly, in the middle, or on the chest ? With respect dear brother, you can not agree on where to put your hands in Salah, it is best not to attack us on being misguided.

Perhaps what is unforgivable is the differences in Aqeedah. Does Allah have a place and position, two feet, two hands, two fingers, a shin, eyes, but nothing like ours, or are we to say we don't know what they mean at all and deny Allah literally has any of these ? You have enormous divisions in Aqeedah between the Ashari and Maturidi, and the Salafi-Athari, all strangely claiming to accept the very same hadith books and classical scholars but coming out with wildly divergent opinions on the most fundamental issues.

Where do i place my hands in Salah? What Aqeedah do i follow? I have not even touched the surface here.


Quote
Imam is brave, but he needs to hide 1000+ years due to afraid getting killed

My dear brother, were the companions of the cave not preserved by Allah [swt] for hundreds of years after fleeing and oppressive ruler? Is Isa [as] not someone who was raised and will be returned at the end of times to kill Djall, and will even offer Salah [according to Muslim] behind al-Mahdi? If Allah [swt] wills to take an individual and keep him away for however long he wishes, within his plan and decree, who are we to criticise it ?

Imam al-Mahdi isn't in Ghaybah merely because he 'will be killed'. He is there because Allah [swt] has decreed the Mahdi, from the Ahlulbayt of Muhammed [saw], through the line of Fatima, has a special role at the end of times, and thus by the will and command of Allah has decreed he be in Ghaybah until the appointed time which he will fulfil the prophecy all Muslim agree upon. No doubt his life was in danger, and he could have continued to just write letters to representatives, but we find Allah did not decree this after a certain point. During the end of times, there will be mass confusion and his enemies will be far greater, but he will actually then fight, because Allah has permitted him and decreed it.

Quote
Imam is the leader of Muslim army, but he avoids facing his enemy, because he is afraid to be killed

He has a role at the end of times. He is awaiting the decree from Allah [swt]. If Allah [swt] wanted he could have made Muhammed [saw] effortlessly take over the entire world, and united us all as one people, but Allah [swt] decrees certain things in his infinite wisdom and to test us.

Quote
Imam is needed to guide people, because he is the only one who can't make mistake, but shia scholars who will make mistakes are guiding people (and misguide too intentionally like imam) In short, whatever shia say and believe, they will also believe and in practise doing the opposite

I would kindly like you to clarify this.
DISCLAIMER: I AM AWAY UNTIL THE START OF THE NEW YEAR, PM ME IF I OWE YOU A REPLY, MAY ALLAH HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US, FI AMANILLAH
" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

Hadrami

Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2017, 01:41:36 AM »
Imam is a guide, but he needs to misguide many times


Actually, the vast majority of our Fiqh can be easily discerned, and our Aqeeah is pretty much undisputed. Not only do we Shia's all know where to put our hands to pray, we do not have wildly different ideas about what Allah [swt] is. If i wanted to become a Sunni tomorrow, i would not even know how the Prophet [saw] placed his hands. Was it by the sides - or is this a B'idah? Was it below the belly, in the middle, or on the chest ? With respect dear brother, you can not agree on where to put your hands in Salah, it is best not to attack us on being misguided.
But one of your greatest scholars which hour website says was "the leader of the (shia) sect", at-Tusi claim that shia has more differences among them than Hanafi, Maliki & Syafii put together though.

Quote
Imam is brave, but he needs to hide 1000+ years due to afraid getting killed

My dear brother, were the companions of the cave not preserved by Allah [swt] for hundreds of years after fleeing and oppressive ruler? Is Isa [as] not someone who was raised and will be returned at the end of times to kill Djall, and will even offer Salah [according to Muslim] behind al-Mahdi? If Allah [swt] wills to take an individual and keep him away for however long he wishes, within his plan and decree, who are we to criticise it ?
I was just quoting your own hadith where imam said mahdi was afraid to be killed. Besides did people of the cave suppose to lead us now? Or did Prophet Isa AS suppose to guide us now? You try to compare different things. Prophet Isa AS has finished his nubuwwah, conveyed his messages, FACE HIS ENEMIES & DIDNT HIDE DUE TO HIM AFRAID GETTING KILLED, he wont even lead muslimwhen he came back. People of Cave? Come on bro, you can do better conparison.

Quote
Imam is the leader of Muslim army, but he avoids facing his enemy, because he is afraid to be killed

He has a role at the end of times. He is awaiting the decree from Allah [swt]. If Allah [swt] wanted he could have made Muhammed [saw] effortlessly take over the entire world, and united us all as one people, but Allah [swt] decrees certain things in his infinite wisdom and to test us.
Your imam said mahdi was afraid to be killed bro. Every human have fear, thats normal, but not for 1000+ years. This is shia who often ridicule sahaba who left a battle. Those samr sahaba at least return to face his enemy another day. But afraid for 1000+ year?

Quote
Imam is needed to guide people, because he is the only one who can't make mistake, but shia scholars who will make mistakes are guiding people (and misguide too intentionally like imam) In short, whatever shia say and believe, they will also believe and in practise doing the opposite

I would kindly like you to clarify this.
Shia say imam nèeded to preserve the pureness of deen, because he cant make mistake, but at the moment fallible scholars who can make mistake preserve the deen. In practice, imam is not always needed, shia need scholars more than imam which disprove the core of shiism.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 03:51:57 AM by Hadrami »

 

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