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Shiaism in a nutshell

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iceman

Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2017, 02:37:20 AM »
LOL. What ever it is you can keep crossing it out be it you or who ever. The crossing out tells how much the truth hurts. So what happened to the red box at the bottom left of my posts? Nobody dared to answer that till yet. Would you like to give it a shot?

I see a line through your comments.  Everything you type appears to be crossed-out or with a line through the text.  I do not know if it is by accident or design, however, the "truth" you speak of has already been refuted.  Your comeback "You are to me as Haroon was to Musa" has long been acknowledged by Shia propaganda sites and they now admit that while Haroon (asws) died before Musa (asws), so he did not succeed Musa (asws), that the point still (somehow) stands.  I suggest you read it and get up-to-speed.

As for the red box, the only red box I know and have seen are the ones outside grocery shops.  They dispense Blu-Ray and DVD movies.  If you have a movie you want to check out, let me know.  I will cover the rental cost so long as you return it on time :)

Not that it worries me but just pointing things out. Be it accidental or design, what a coincidence that it doesn't happen to a non Shia. ☺

As far as the red box is concerned thanks for letting me know the only one you're familiar with. You must be speaking from experience. ☺

Let me point out another red box that is on the bottom left hand corner of your post and others. It gives you the option of like. What happened to mine and other Shia brothers? ☺

Or is this accidental or a design error as well? It was there in the beginning but was removed later. Only pointing out the cheap shots and childish behaviour of admins and mods.

Well if such cheap tactics and childish behaviour gives and boosts someone's confidence then why not. Who ever succeeded Moses I'm sure wasn't staged by his companions. I'm sure the decision of succession was down to Allah.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 02:39:21 AM by iceman »

iceman

Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2017, 02:49:22 AM »
The whole point of Shiaism is that we follow Qoran and Sunah and our belief and faith, the ideology we believe in is according to Qoran and Sunah. And I will happily challenge anyone who says otherwise. Or I'm up for the challenge if anyone proves otherwise. As far as history books are concerned be it yours or ours, written by a Shia scholar or a Suni, there are certain things we accept and certain we reject just as you do.

But as far as Qoran and Sunah is concerned our ideology is according to it and yours isn't. Try discussing one subject/topic at a time and step by step. Take a look at any thread here, which is on topic? None. Other things are brought in to derail the subject and to move away from the topic.

iceman

Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2017, 02:52:52 AM »
An anti Shia, someone who has been raised and brought up by being filled and pumped up with bitterness and hate regarding Shiaism and Shias is going to tell us what Shiaism is in a nutshell?

Come on, pull the other one!

whoaretheshia

Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2017, 01:57:16 PM »
Quote
But one of your greatest scholars which hour website says was "the leader of the (shia) sect", at-Tusi claim that shia has more differences among them than Hanafi, Maliki & Syafii put together though.

Different time periods. It is one thing when a Madhab is in its infancy and evolving, and another thing when it has been well over a millennia. Shia's are united in the vast majority of Fiqh issues. We all pray the same way, and know where to put our hands. However, if i wanted to become a Sunni i would not even be assured how the Prophet ﷺ placed his hands.

Put side issues of Fiqh, where differences occur. What about Aqeedah? May i ask you, what school of Aqeedah you follow? Are you aware that the owners of this website, who i say are polite and have integrity, still affirm the Salafi-Creed, and declare the Ashari-Sunni and the Maturidi-Sunni as deviants? Are you aware that the majority of Sunni scholars have been Ashari and Maturidi, and this is like dlecaring an enormous part of your heritage as deviant?

If i wanted to become a Sunni tomorrow, i would have different groups all claiming to hold onto the same book but having wildly different understandings of Allah, the Almighty. Whatever differences existed even back in the time of Shaykh-Tusi - which was a period of reformation and evolution, we certainly did not divide based on our understanding on the attributes of Allah.

Watch this Ashari-Maturidi Hanafi brother claiming Salafi's are deviant. Then go and watch the Salafi's calling them the deviants. This is not a joke brother, this is Aqeedah.



I was just quoting your own hadith where imam said mahdi was afraid to be killed. Besides did people of the cave suppose to lead us now? Or did Prophet Isa AS suppose to guide us now? You try to compare different things. Prophet Isa AS has finished his nubuwwah, conveyed his messages, FACE HIS ENEMIES & DIDNT HIDE DUE TO HIM AFRAID GETTING KILLED, he wont even lead muslimwhen he came back. People of Cave? Come on bro, you can do better conparison.

There is no doubt Imam al-Askari, whose title comes from being imprisoned in the land named Askar, was in grave threat and danger from the ruling authorities, who recognised the uprisings of those who wanted to put the Banu Hashim in power and maintained rule must come from the line of Fatima. Rather than using the method of al-Ma'mun in trying to please these people and bring the Ahlulbayt close (and he did this by making Imam al-Ridha his heir, changing the states colours to green to reflect the colour of Banu al-Hashim among other things) other leaders opted to be more stringent and brutal.  For both the Shia, and al-Madhi, those were dangerous times. One of the reasons for his Ghaybah was because of this.

However, he has not remained in Ghaybah because he fears being killed and is hiding. Are the hadith not clear that he will rise when oppression is rife, when his enemies are numerous and when he will fight and war against the corruption globally? If he was hiding because he was afraid, why come out of Ghaybah when it is essentially the end of times and you are going to have to fight not just the enemies of Islam in Arabia, but enemies the world over.

He has been put into Ghaybah because in the same where Allah [swt] has preserved Isa [as] until the end of times, he has decreed both Isa [as] and al-Madhi have a duty to play. He has decreed it, it is prophesied in Mutawattir hadith, and is the command and will of Allah [swt].

I only made mention of the Ashab-e-Kahf because you should not be surprised for people being placed into occultation and Allah preserving their lives until a time decrees. It may also be the case this is a test for the Ummah in the same way keeping Musa [as] remaining for ten additional days was a test of faith of the community.

Quote
Your imam said mahdi was afraid to be killed bro. Every human have fear, thats normal, but not for 1000+ years. This is shia who often ridicule sahaba who left a battle. Those samr sahaba at least return to face his enemy another day. But afraid for 1000+ year?

There's a difference when you have an army of tens of thousands and outnumber the enemy under the Prophet of Allah, and then run away and flee, and being in a situation where you barely have large numbers, the leaders the empire are in far more control and power, and there is absolutely no chance or practical benefit to fighting - but it is better to preserve the lives of your followers and survival of the right view of Islam.

Quote
Shia say imam nèeded to preserve the pureness of deen, because he cant make mistake, but at the moment fallible scholars who can make mistake preserve the deen. In practice, imam is not always needed, shia need scholars more than imam which disprove the core of shiism.

I think you have misunderstood it. Shia's claims that the source of the religion has to be pure. When Muhammed ﷺ was sent, and if he erred and sinned and made mistakes, the source by which we obtain the Sunnah would be corrupted as we would be seconding guessing the Prophet ﷺ. We need to have absolute and full confidence in the source - even if people who take from the source can make a mistake. This also applies for the second of the two weighty things, the Ahlulbayt, who preserved his sunnah and were representatives of Allah. If they sinned, erred, began to make mistakes , the pure source would be corrupted.

So even though people can make mistakes when reading the Quran, the Quran itself is not corrupted. Even if people can make mistakes in understanding the true morals by which to live, the Sunnah itself is not corrupted. Yes,there exists fake ahadith, weak a hadith, traditions which when one studies can be discarded as they go against many other authentic traditions even when said under dissimulation, but the source remains pure and there are clear routes to get to it.

I hope i have explained it clear brother , do write back if you wish.
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" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

Hadrami

Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #44 on: November 23, 2017, 05:20:51 PM »
Quote
But one of your greatest scholars which hour website says was "the leader of the (shia) sect", at-Tusi claim that shia has more differences among them than Hanafi, Maliki & Syafii put together though.

Different time periods. It is one thing when a Madhab is in its infancy and evolving, and another thing when it has been well over a millennia. Shia's are united in the vast majority of Fiqh issues. We all pray the same way, and know where to put our hands. However, if i wanted to become a Sunni i would not even be assured how the Prophet ﷺ placed his hands.
ah different time period excuse again just like in the other thread.

Watch this Ashari-Maturidi Hanafi brother claiming Salafi's are deviant. Then go and watch the Salafi's calling them the deviants. This is not a joke brother, this is Aqeedah.


it doesnt prove shia is correct, besides you know there are ayatola calling each other deviant. These differences in sunni doesnt prove that shia imamah is true. A sunni can be a maturidi etc and still wont make them believe in shia imamah. There are maturidi, ashari & athari here and you wont see us calling each other kuffar, only shia's creed which consider all of us as kuffar.

There is no doubt Imam al-Askari, whose title comes from being imprisoned in the land named Askar, was in grave threat and danger from the ruling authorities, who recognised the uprisings of those who wanted to put the Banu Hashim in power and maintained rule must come from the line of Fatima. Rather than using the method of al-Ma'mun in trying to please these people and bring the Ahlulbayt close (and he did this by making Imam al-Ridha his heir, changing the states colours to green to reflect the colour of Banu al-Hashim among other things) other leaders opted to be more stringent and brutal.  For both the Shia, and al-Madhi, those were dangerous times. One of the reasons for his Ghaybah was because of this.
what shia mahdi did is worse than the sahaba whom shia often condemned. Some sahaba feared and left battle, but came back to fight another day. Mahdi feared and didnt even face his enemies once let alone in any battle.

However, he has not remained in Ghaybah because he fears being killed and is hiding. Are the hadith not clear that he will rise when oppression is rife, when his enemies are numerous and when he will fight and war against the corruption globally? If he was hiding because he was afraid, why come out of Ghaybah when it is essentially the end of times and you are going to have to fight not just the enemies of Islam in Arabia, but enemies the world over.
Shia narrative since day one is Islam has been corrupted, enemies are large in numbers, shia were oppressed and now you are making excuse that mahdi will only come out if those conditions are happening.

He has been put into Ghaybah because in the same where Allah [swt] has preserved Isa [as] until the end of times, he has decreed both Isa [as] and al-Madhi have a duty to play. He has decreed it, it is prophesied in Mutawattir hadith, and is the command and will of Allah [swt].

I only made mention of the Ashab-e-Kahf because you should not be surprised for people being placed into occultation and Allah preserving their lives until a time decrees. It may also be the case this is a test for the Ummah in the same way keeping Musa [as] remaining for ten additional days was a test of faith of the community.
No need to recycle your weak argument. I have already told you Isa AS has finished his nubuwwah, guide his followers, face his enemies, conveyed his messages while mahdi is hiding before even start what he suppose to do. Did Isa AS left his nubuwwah and leave his duties because he was afraid too? No comparison.


There's a difference when you have an army of tens of thousands and outnumber the enemy under the Prophet of Allah, and then run away and flee, and being in a situation where you barely have large numbers, the leaders the empire are in far more control and power, and there is absolutely no chance or practical benefit to fighting - but it is better to preserve the lives of your followers and survival of the right view of Islam.
Nice try, but there were large shia kingdoms with large armies which defeated their enemies many times and yet mahdi is still hiding. Does he need 100 million strong shia army?


I think you have misunderstood it. Shia's claims that the source of the religion has to be pure. When Muhammed ﷺ was sent, and if he erred and sinned and made mistakes, the source by which we obtain the Sunnah would be corrupted as we would be seconding guessing the Prophet ﷺ. We need to have absolute and full confidence in the source - even if people who take from the source can make a mistake. This also applies for the second of the two weighty things, the Ahlulbayt, who preserved his sunnah and were representatives of Allah. If they sinned, erred, began to make mistakes , the pure source would be corrupted.

So even though people can make mistakes when reading the Quran, the Quran itself is not corrupted. Even if people can make mistakes in understanding the true morals by which to live, the Sunnah itself is not corrupted. Yes,there exists fake ahadith, weak a hadith, traditions which when one studies can be discarded as they go against many other authentic traditions even when said under dissimulation, but the source remains pure and there are clear routes to get to it.

I hope i have explained it clear brother , do write back if you wish.
If some erred reading the Quran it is his fault, but when imam told people to read quran incorrectly that is imam's fault. He intentionally misguide that reader. So he let people do the wrong thing. What kid of guide is that?

MuslimK

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Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2017, 02:52:45 AM »
We are not making it up. Your greatest scholars of all time said it.

al-Tusi in his book al-Ghaybah page 203, al-Murtada in his book al-Shafi volume 4 page 149 and al-Mufid in his book al-Fusoul al-Mukhtarah page 395:

لا سبب للغيبة ولا علة تمنعه من الظهور الا خوف الامام على نفسه من القتل
 
“The only reason behind the ghaybah (occultation) of the Mahdi and the reason that he cannot appear is that he fears that he will be killed.”


http://www.twelvershia.net/2015/09/03/who-was-the-bravest-companion-ibn-hazm/
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

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Hadrami

Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #46 on: November 24, 2017, 02:37:36 PM »
We are not making it up. Your greatest scholars of all time said it.

al-Tusi in his book al-Ghaybah page 203, al-Murtada in his book al-Shafi volume 4 page 149 and al-Mufid in his book al-Fusoul al-Mukhtarah page 395:

لا سبب للغيبة ولا علة تمنعه من الظهور الا خوف الامام على نفسه من القتل
 
“The only reason behind the ghaybah (occultation) of the Mahdi and the reason that he cannot appear is that he fears that he will be killed.”


http://www.twelvershia.net/2015/09/03/who-was-the-bravest-companion-ibn-hazm/
Is it a coincidence that whoistheshia ignore this? He would have to defy "the leader of his sect". Hes in a tight spot 😁

Hadrami

Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #47 on: November 30, 2017, 10:46:05 PM »
if whoaretheshia consistent in applying his own standard then at-Tusi is a nasibi for saying his leader is hiding for years because hes afraid. Thats a word of a nasibi!!!! 😂

muslim720

Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2017, 11:12:58 AM »
Not that it worries me but just pointing things out. Be it accidental or design, what a coincidence that it doesn't happen to a non Shia. ☺

Did you ever think that it does not happen in my case because I have been a member for much longer than you have been one?  Shias love to paint themselves as the victims; do you know how many members here have been banned from ShiaChat?  What is worse is that I have an account there which needs an approval every time I post something.  And every time my rebuttal is too much for them to handle, they do not approve it.

Quote
As far as the red box is concerned thanks for letting me know the only one you're familiar with. You must be speaking from experience. ☺

I wonder if you are confusing Redbox with something else.  I suggest you Google it.

Quote
Let me point out another red box that is on the bottom left hand corner of your post and others. It gives you the option of like. What happened to mine and other Shia brothers? ☺

You could have said the "Like" button.  Why call it the "red box"?  As to what happened to it, I don't know; I hope the admins fix it for you.  But are you, and the rest of the Shias here, that shallow that you need each others' approval?

Quote
Or is this accidental or a design error as well? It was there in the beginning but was removed later. Only pointing out the cheap shots and childish behaviour of admins and mods.

Message me all the posts you want to be liked; I will like them on your behalf.  Happy?

Quote
Well if such cheap tactics and childish behaviour gives and boosts someone's confidence then why not.

As I said, let me know and I will like them for you (until your "red box" reappears).

Quote
Who ever succeeded Moses I'm sure wasn't staged by his companions. I'm sure the decision of succession was down to Allah.

You did not even know who succeeded Musa (asws) but you are sure that it "wasn't staged by his companions" and that "the decision of succession was down to Allah".  For someone who did not know Musa's (asws) successor, your claims are a bit too sure.......too sure to fail!

iceman

Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #49 on: December 02, 2017, 03:17:36 PM »
Did you ever think that it does not happen in my case because I have been a member for much longer than you have been one?  Shias love to paint themselves as the victims; do you know how many members here have been banned from ShiaChat?  What is worse is that I have an account there which needs an approval every time I post something.  And every time my rebuttal is too much for them to handle, they do not approve it.

I wonder if you are confusing Redbox with something else.  I suggest you Google it.

You could have said the "Like" button.  Why call it the "red box"?  As to what happened to it, I don't know; I hope the admins fix it for you.  But are you, and the rest of the Shias here, that shallow that you need each others' approval?

Message me all the posts you want to be liked; I will like them on your behalf.  Happy?

As I said, let me know and I will like them for you (until your "red box" reappears).

You did not even know who succeeded Musa (asws) but you are sure that it "wasn't staged by his companions" and that "the decision of succession was down to Allah".  For someone who did not know Musa's (asws) successor, your claims are a bit too sure.......too sure to fail!

I really don't want to get into a tit for tat conversation with you. So my response is be, think and discuss positive.

The title of this thread is 'Shiaism in a nutshell'. So for once lets stick to the thread, subject and what is related to it.

Would you take 'Sunnism in a nutshell' from an anti Suni? Those who dislike or even hate Sunis, are they going to tell us what Sunism is and what Sunis are all about?

Come on, lets be reasonable and logical. Selecting and picking desired bits and pieces from here and there and then trying to paint a picture of any religion, sect or community is not the way of the intelligent and wise.

muslim720

Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2017, 01:59:39 AM »
I really don't want to get into a tit for tat conversation with you. So my response is be, think and discuss positive.

The title of this thread is 'Shiaism in a nutshell'. So for once lets stick to the thread, subject and what is related to it.

Would you take 'Sunnism in a nutshell' from an anti Suni? Those who dislike or even hate Sunis, are they going to tell us what Sunism is and what Sunis are all about?

Come on, lets be reasonable and logical. Selecting and picking desired bits and pieces from here and there and then trying to paint a picture of any religion, sect or community is not the way of the intelligent and wise.

I do it better; I don't just think and discuss positively.  I think, discuss, meet, greet and associate with Shias in our community, all done positively and without an ounce of dislike or hatred.  In fact, I am against essentialism (if there is such a word).  I am against boiling down an ideology or concept to three or four sentences so you can deal with them just to make believe as though you dealt with the entire ideology and all its nuances.

 

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