TwelverShia.net Forum

Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Imamah-Ghaybah => Topic started by: Hadrami on November 13, 2017, 02:44:41 AM

Title: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: Hadrami on November 13, 2017, 02:44:41 AM
Imam is a guide, but he needs to misguide many times

Imam is brave, but he needs to hide 1000+ years due to afraid getting killed

Imam is the leader of Muslim army, but he avoids facing his enemy, because he is afraid to be killed

Imam is needed to guide people, because he is the only one who can't make mistake, but shia scholars who will make mistakes are guiding people (and misguide too intentionally like imam)

In short, whatever shia say and believe, they will also believe and in practise doing the opposite
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: Farid on November 13, 2017, 05:44:17 AM
Well said.
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: Hani on November 13, 2017, 08:25:58 AM
Nothing makes sense, they read history upside down.

They blame the Prophet (saw) for not appointing then their 12th Imam leaves without appointing.

They blame Ibn Umar for giving Yazid Bayah yet Ali bin Husayn gave Yazid Bayah.

They blame those who didn't revolt with Husayn, yet all their top leaders never joined Zayd's revolt.

Etc... It's endless
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: MuslimK on November 13, 2017, 02:55:17 PM
Well explained. They oppose and criticise the Sunnis for following the fallible Sahaba, scholars etc yet they have been doing the same thing for the last 1200 years. Their sect is like a corrupt political opposition party.
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: Hani on November 13, 2017, 05:54:49 PM
That's how it's always been, the sect is only a religion for the cattle, the leaders view it as an extension of an ancient political party and utilize it this.
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: iceman on November 13, 2017, 07:26:34 PM
Imam is a guide, but he needs to misguide many times

Imam is brave, but he needs to hide 1000+ years due to afraid getting killed

Imam is the leader of Muslim army, but he avoids facing his enemy, because he is afraid to be killed

Imam is needed to guide people, because he is the only one who can't make mistake, but shia scholars who will make mistakes are guiding people (and misguide too intentionally like imam)

In short, whatever shia say and believe, they will also believe and in practise doing the opposite

LOL. I've heard it many times before. You don't have a CLUE what Shiaism is about. And I'm absolutely sure you have no intentions of knowing either. It's like banging your head against the wall with you lot. But the only benefit is that you don't continue to misguide people.

Ok, so lets have Sunnism in a nutshell.
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: Optimus Prime on November 13, 2017, 07:54:57 PM
Imam is a guide, but he needs to misguide many times

Imam is brave, but he needs to hide 1000+ years due to afraid getting killed

Imam is the leader of Muslim army, but he avoids facing his enemy, because he is afraid to be killed

Imam is needed to guide people, because he is the only one who can't make mistake, but shia scholars who will make mistakes are guiding people (and misguide too intentionally like imam)

In short, whatever shia say and believe, they will also believe and in practise doing the opposite

LOL. I've heard it many times before. You don't have a CLUE what Shiaism is about. And I'm absolutely sure you have no intentions of knowing either. It's like banging your head against the wall with you lot. But the only benefit is that you don't continue to misguide people.

Ok, so lets have Sunnism in a nutshell.

The truth is these brothers know more about Shiaism than you ever will.

This entire site is a oracle of content, that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Shiaism is the religion of Iblis.

Alhamdulillah, through the efforts of these brothers many have been saved from the clutches of Iblis, and have even shared their story with us on these forums. ALL of them have paid testimony, that one of the sources/reasons that pulled them towards Haq was the website twelvershia.net.  :)

You're on a way trip to Jahanam icedude, if you don't warm up to the truth, and fast! We invite you to embrace the real truth which, is Ahlus Sunnah.  ;)
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: iceman on November 13, 2017, 10:04:21 PM
SHIAISM,  THE SHIAS!

We certainly do not believe that Allah (Qoran) and the Messenger (Hadiths) are SILENT on such an IMPORTANT and CRUCIAL matter on who should govern after Muhammad (s). We do not accuse Allah and his Messenger (s) of such irresponsibility and carelessness, astagfirullah!

We certainly believe that the Messenger (s) absolutely and most definitely named and appointed someone to govern after him and this was done on the orders of Allah himself. We do not accuse the Messenger (s) of negligence and leaving the Ummah in disarray and in the hands of who ever got in to authority and gained power.

We do not believe that the Prophet (s) left Qoran and Sunah, the Sharia just like that and in the hands of who ever got into authority and how ever and did what they assumed was right and better according to their own will and desire. For example Yazeed and we all know what he was all about and got up to.
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: Optimus Prime on November 13, 2017, 10:53:24 PM
*yawns*
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: iceman on November 13, 2017, 11:07:35 PM
SHIAISM, THE SHIAS!

We do not believe in a system such as CALIPHATE where people have got into power through and by various and different means and you put them all in the same pot and label it SHURA.

We do not believe in this system, CALIPHATE, where people get into authority and make decisions which could either turn out to be tremendous or disastrous or right or wrong or good or bad.

Yes of course we accept and believe in those who were purified to the state of purification (Ahle bayth) and we take Qoran and Sunah from the most reliable and authentic source and that is the purified ones, the Ahle bayth.

We are a sect which disagreed with and rejected the coincidental and hasty decision made in Saqifa. Yes we were from the very beginning, the very start. We are not like these Sunis who popped up a couple of a hundred years after Muhammad (s) and Khluafa e Rashedoon. And then fell into disagreement and disarray,

when Malik considered himself an Imam and decided to breakaway from Abu Hanifa and kick off his own school of thought just as what Imam Abu Hanifa did as though you just need permission from the education board and that's it, you have your own school of thought and away we go.

Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: iceman on November 13, 2017, 11:15:41 PM
SHIAISM, THE SHIAS!

Our belief is crystal clear and we are open and straight with and about everything. Not like these individuals who got carried away by the coincidental and hasty decision made in Saqifa with no legitimacy what so ever. And then it all turned awol just further down the road with Jamal, then Safeen and nehrawan.

And after that their top man Yazeed got into power and what he did and got up to certainly got them thinking about caliphate for a while until years later people kicked off a belief and turned it in to faith.
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: iceman on November 13, 2017, 11:46:29 PM
So what happened to the red box on the bottom left of my posts that gives the choice to LIKE? Anybody have a clue?
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: iceman on November 14, 2017, 12:41:07 AM
Shia Muslims believe that just as a prophet is appointed by God alone, only God has the prerogative to appoint the successor to his prophet. They believe God chose Ali to be Muhammad's successor, infallible, the first caliph (khalifa, head of state) of Islam.
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: Zahra on November 14, 2017, 05:06:13 AM
2:165 And [yet], among the people are those who take other than Allah as equals [to Him]. They love them as they [should] love Allah . But those who believe are stronger in love for Allah . And if only they who have wronged would consider [that] when they see the punishment, [they will be certain] that all power belongs to Allah and that Allah is severe in punishment.

2:166[And they should consider that] when those who have been followed disassociate themselves from those who followed [them], and they [all] see the punishment, and cut off from them are the ties [of relationship]

2:167 Those who followed will say, "If only we had another turn [at worldly life] so we could disassociate ourselves from them as they have disassociated themselves from us." Thus will Allah show them their deeds as regrets upon them. And they are never to emerge from the Fire.
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: Hadrami on November 14, 2017, 01:29:03 PM
But the only benefit is that you don't continue to misguide people.
Are you talking about your mahdi, because the benefit of shia mahdi not being around is that shia imam cant misguide & confuse people anymore with his taqiyya religious rulings 😀
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: iceman on November 14, 2017, 08:42:37 PM
Verse 5:55,

"Your guardian is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship]"

This verse clearly proves that apart from Allah and his Messenger (s) someone has just been put third in line in authority in sequence and after Allah and his Messenger (s) over the believers on the orders of Allah.
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: iceman on November 14, 2017, 10:39:18 PM
Verse 4:59,

"O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you"

Here is another example from the Qoran where Allah has put someone third in line in authority after himself and his Messenger (s).

Whether it's verse 5:55 or 4:559 Allah has mentioned himself and his Messenger (s) then mentioned and gave the new message in the form of an order and with clear instruction that he is placing someone third in line in authority so there is no confusion or doubt about those that have been placed third in line in authority how important they are. The sequence, Allah, his Messenger (s) and then......, tells you how important third in line are.

But those will continue to raise suspicion and cast doubt with their ifs and buts and with this, that and the other who want to defend the coincidental and hasty decision in Saqifa and to protect the mysterious doings of the Shaykhain. These individuals will not rest and have become so blind with the fact that they will continue to fiddle with Qoran and Sunah to serve their ridiculous purpose.
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: iceman on November 14, 2017, 11:31:03 PM
But the only benefit is that you don't continue to misguide people.
Are you talking about your mahdi, because the benefit of shia mahdi not being around is that shia imam cant misguide & confuse people anymore with his taqiyya religious rulings 😀

I do not engage in such illiterate discussions. It's not my taste or level.😊
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: Hadrami on November 15, 2017, 02:21:48 AM
But the only benefit is that you don't continue to misguide people.
Are you talking about your mahdi, because the benefit of shia mahdi not being around is that shia imam cant misguide & confuse people anymore with his taqiyya religious rulings 😀

I do not engage in such illiterate discussions. It's not my taste or level.😊
because you cant deny that imam often intentionally gave wrong religious rulings which confused even shias. What a guide!! 😉
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: iceman on November 15, 2017, 02:23:29 AM
Have a dig at this;

Truly, ‘Ali is from me and I am from him (inna ʿAlī minnī wa anā minhu), and he is the walī (patron/spiritual master) of every believer after me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 19, No. 4636; Ahmad b. Shu‘ayb al-Nasa’i, Khasa’is Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, Tehran 1998, 129)

‘Ali is with the Qurʾān and the Qurʾān is with ‘Ali. They will not separate from each other until they return to me at the [paradisal pool] (al-ḥawḍ).

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 927, No. 4685)

[To ‘Ali]: Are you not happy that you should have in relation to me the rank of Aaron in relation to Moses, except that there is no prophet after me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(Ahmad b. Shu‘ayb al-Nasa’i, Khasa’is Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, Tehran 1998, 76)

Three things were revealed to me regarding ʿAlī: he is the leader of the Muslims, the guide of the pious and chief of the radiantly devout (sayyidu’l-muslimīn, imāmu’l-muttaqīn, wa qāʾidu’l-ghurra’lmuḥajjalīn).

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 936, No. 4723)

Gazing upon ʿAlī is an act of worship (al-naẓar ilā ʿAlī ʿibāda).))

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 938, No. 4736)

May God have mercy on ʿAlī. O God, make the truth revolve around ʿAlī wherever he turns (adiri’l-ḥaqq maʿahu ḥaythu dāra)

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 927, No. 4686)

‘Ali is as my own soul (ka-nafsī).

Prophet Muhammad,
(Ahmad b. Shu‘ayb al-Nasa’i, Khasa’is Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, Tehran 1998, 104)

You [‘Ali] are from me and I am from you (anta minnī wa anā minka).

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 924, No. 4672)

Whoever obeys ʿAli obeys me, and whoever disobeys him disobeys me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 925, No. 4678)

[To ‘Ali]: You will clarify for my community that over which they will differ after me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 926, No. 4678)

There is one amongst you who will fight for the taʿwīl [spiritual interpretation] of the Qurʾān as I have fought for its tanzīl [literal revelation].’ Abū Bakr asked, ‘Is it I?’. The Prophet said, ‘No’. ʿUmar asked, ‘Is it I?’. The Prophet said, ‘No, it is the one who is mending the sandal.’ The Prophet had given ʿAlī his sandal to mend.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 926, No. 4679)

O ʿAli, whoever separates himself from me separates himself from God, and whoever separates himself from you, O ʿAli, separates himself from me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 927, No. 4682)

‘Ali is from me and I am from him (ʿAlī minnī wa anā minhu), and nobody can fulfill my duty but myself and ʿAli.

Prophet Muhammad,
(Ahmad b. Shu‘ayb al-Nasa’i, Khasa’is Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, Tehran 1998, 106)

He whose mawlā [master] I am, this ʿAlī is his mawla (man kuntu mawlāhu fa-ʿAlī mawlāhu).

Prophet Muhammad,
(Cited in numerous Sunni Muslim Hadith sources listed here)
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: Hadrami on November 16, 2017, 01:13:16 AM
Have a dig at this;

Truly, ‘Ali is from me and I am from him (inna ʿAlī minnī wa anā minhu), and he is the walī (patron/spiritual master) of every believer after me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 19, No. 4636; Ahmad b. Shu‘ayb al-Nasa’i, Khasa’is Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, Tehran 1998, 129)

‘Ali is with the Qurʾān and the Qurʾān is with ‘Ali. They will not separate from each other until they return to me at the [paradisal pool] (al-ḥawḍ).

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 927, No. 4685)

[To ‘Ali]: Are you not happy that you should have in relation to me the rank of Aaron in relation to Moses, except that there is no prophet after me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(Ahmad b. Shu‘ayb al-Nasa’i, Khasa’is Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, Tehran 1998, 76)

Three things were revealed to me regarding ʿAlī: he is the leader of the Muslims, the guide of the pious and chief of the radiantly devout (sayyidu’l-muslimīn, imāmu’l-muttaqīn, wa qāʾidu’l-ghurra’lmuḥajjalīn).

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 936, No. 4723)

Gazing upon ʿAlī is an act of worship (al-naẓar ilā ʿAlī ʿibāda).))

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 938, No. 4736)

May God have mercy on ʿAlī. O God, make the truth revolve around ʿAlī wherever he turns (adiri’l-ḥaqq maʿahu ḥaythu dāra)

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 927, No. 4686)

‘Ali is as my own soul (ka-nafsī).

Prophet Muhammad,
(Ahmad b. Shu‘ayb al-Nasa’i, Khasa’is Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, Tehran 1998, 104)

You [‘Ali] are from me and I am from you (anta minnī wa anā minka).

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 924, No. 4672)

Whoever obeys ʿAli obeys me, and whoever disobeys him disobeys me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 925, No. 4678)

[To ‘Ali]: You will clarify for my community that over which they will differ after me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 926, No. 4678)

There is one amongst you who will fight for the taʿwīl [spiritual interpretation] of the Qurʾān as I have fought for its tanzīl [literal revelation].’ Abū Bakr asked, ‘Is it I?’. The Prophet said, ‘No’. ʿUmar asked, ‘Is it I?’. The Prophet said, ‘No, it is the one who is mending the sandal.’ The Prophet had given ʿAlī his sandal to mend.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 926, No. 4679)

O ʿAli, whoever separates himself from me separates himself from God, and whoever separates himself from you, O ʿAli, separates himself from me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 927, No. 4682)

‘Ali is from me and I am from him (ʿAlī minnī wa anā minhu), and nobody can fulfill my duty but myself and ʿAli.

Prophet Muhammad,
(Ahmad b. Shu‘ayb al-Nasa’i, Khasa’is Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, Tehran 1998, 106)

He whose mawlā [master] I am, this ʿAlī is his mawla (man kuntu mawlāhu fa-ʿAlī mawlāhu).

Prophet Muhammad,
(Cited in numerous Sunni Muslim Hadith sources listed here)

and whats this gotta to do with imam who intentionally lied and gave wrong religious rulings to people? Shia always sidetrack when they dont know how to reply 😂
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: Ijtaba on November 16, 2017, 01:22:37 AM
and whats this gotta to do with imam who intentionally lied and gave wrong religious rulings to people? Shia always sidetrack when they dont know how to reply 😂

Can you provide authentic Shi'ite narrations where our Aimmah (a.s) intentionally lied & gave wrong religious rulings to people?
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: Hadrami on November 16, 2017, 01:29:44 AM
and whats this gotta to do with imam who intentionally lied and gave wrong religious rulings to people? Shia always sidetrack when they dont know how to reply 😂

Can you provide authentic Shi'ite narrations where our Aimmah (a.s) intentionally lied & gave wrong religious rulings to people?
Is this a real question or a joke? You don't know that your own scholars put a stamp on shia ahadith as taqiyya, because those were wrong rulings or went against what they believe as correct? Heaps of sample here http://www.twelvershia.net/2014/05/29/taqiyya-the-other-face/
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: Hadrami on November 16, 2017, 01:37:54 AM
Looks like the main culprit of confusion in shiasm was imam  ;D

[Ahmad ibn Idris from Muhamad ibn ‘Abdul-Jabbar from al-Hassan ibn `Ali from Tha’alabah ibn Maymoun from Zurarah ibn A’ayun that he said: I asked Imam al-Baqir (as) a question so the Imam gave me the answer then another man came and asked the same question so the Imam gave him a different answer, then another one came and asked about it so the Imam gave him a completely different answer than both of us. when both men left I asked the Imam: “O son of Rassul Allah, two men from ‘Iraq and from your Shia came to ask you but you gave each of them different answers.” He replied: “O Zurarah, this is good for us so that we may remain safer because if you all agree on this then the people will believe in it and they would be guided to us but we will not remain for long.”

Later I said to his son al-Sadiq (as): “Your Shia always walk away from you with different opinions and answers” so he gave me the same reply as his father.]

source: al-Kafi 1/65.
al-Majlisi said: Muwaththaq like the Sahih.
al-Behbudi said: Sahih.

Read the red part, imam clearly didnt want many people to believe and be guided.
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: iceman on November 16, 2017, 02:06:52 AM
Looks like the main culprit of confusion in shiasm was imam  ;D

[Ahmad ibn Idris from Muhamad ibn ‘Abdul-Jabbar from al-Hassan ibn `Ali from Tha’alabah ibn Maymoun from Zurarah ibn A’ayun that he said: I asked Imam al-Baqir (as) a question so the Imam gave me the answer then another man came and asked the same question so the Imam gave him a different answer, then another one came and asked about it so the Imam gave him a completely different answer than both of us. when both men left I asked the Imam: “O son of Rassul Allah, two men from ‘Iraq and from your Shia came to ask you but you gave each of them different answers.” He replied: “O Zurarah, this is good for us so that we may remain safer because if you all agree on this then the people will believe in it and they would be guided to us but we will not remain for long.”

Later I said to his son al-Sadiq (as): “Your Shia always walk away from you with different opinions and answers” so he gave me the same reply as his father.]

source: al-Kafi 1/65.
al-Majlisi said: Muwaththaq like the Sahih.
al-Behbudi said: Sahih.

Read the red part, imam clearly didnt want many people to believe and be guided.

Once again do you believe in every single thing written in your authentic books?
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: muslim720 on November 16, 2017, 04:55:03 AM
Have a dig at this;

Truly, ‘Ali is from me and I am from him (inna ʿAlī minnī wa anā minhu), and he is the walī (patron/spiritual master) of every believer after me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 19, No. 4636; Ahmad b. Shu‘ayb al-Nasa’i, Khasa’is Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, Tehran 1998, 129)

‘Ali is with the Qurʾān and the Qurʾān is with ‘Ali. They will not separate from each other until they return to me at the [paradisal pool] (al-ḥawḍ).

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 927, No. 4685)

[To ‘Ali]: Are you not happy that you should have in relation to me the rank of Aaron in relation to Moses, except that there is no prophet after me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(Ahmad b. Shu‘ayb al-Nasa’i, Khasa’is Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, Tehran 1998, 76)

Three things were revealed to me regarding ʿAlī: he is the leader of the Muslims, the guide of the pious and chief of the radiantly devout (sayyidu’l-muslimīn, imāmu’l-muttaqīn, wa qāʾidu’l-ghurra’lmuḥajjalīn).

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 936, No. 4723)

Gazing upon ʿAlī is an act of worship (al-naẓar ilā ʿAlī ʿibāda).))

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 938, No. 4736)

May God have mercy on ʿAlī. O God, make the truth revolve around ʿAlī wherever he turns (adiri’l-ḥaqq maʿahu ḥaythu dāra)

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 927, No. 4686)

‘Ali is as my own soul (ka-nafsī).

Prophet Muhammad,
(Ahmad b. Shu‘ayb al-Nasa’i, Khasa’is Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, Tehran 1998, 104)

You [‘Ali] are from me and I am from you (anta minnī wa anā minka).

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 924, No. 4672)

Whoever obeys ʿAli obeys me, and whoever disobeys him disobeys me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 925, No. 4678)

[To ‘Ali]: You will clarify for my community that over which they will differ after me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 926, No. 4678)

There is one amongst you who will fight for the taʿwīl [spiritual interpretation] of the Qurʾān as I have fought for its tanzīl [literal revelation].’ Abū Bakr asked, ‘Is it I?’. The Prophet said, ‘No’. ʿUmar asked, ‘Is it I?’. The Prophet said, ‘No, it is the one who is mending the sandal.’ The Prophet had given ʿAlī his sandal to mend.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 926, No. 4679)

O ʿAli, whoever separates himself from me separates himself from God, and whoever separates himself from you, O ʿAli, separates himself from me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 927, No. 4682)

‘Ali is from me and I am from him (ʿAlī minnī wa anā minhu), and nobody can fulfill my duty but myself and ʿAli.

Prophet Muhammad,
(Ahmad b. Shu‘ayb al-Nasa’i, Khasa’is Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, Tehran 1998, 106)

He whose mawlā [master] I am, this ʿAlī is his mawla (man kuntu mawlāhu fa-ʿAlī mawlāhu).

Prophet Muhammad,
(Cited in numerous Sunni Muslim Hadith sources listed here)

The extrapolations and fabrications Shias have made from these mostly weak reports are too many to count.  In that YouTube discussion, Shia Blade Runner was claiming that the Prophet (saw) said, "whoever curses Ali curses me".  This is on top of "whoever angers Fatima angers me" (though that one backfires because the Prophet (saw) said that to Imam Ali (ra) and it is recorded in Shia books).  Then you have "Hussain is from me and I am from Hussain".  Also, the countless versions of "O Ali, your Shia......"

Recently, I was looking for Minhaj us Sunnah in English but could not find anything.  However, a brother posted an excerpt from the book.  He shared:
"Chapter 54. The saying of the Prophet (saw) about Ali (ra): 'You are from and I am from you' does not prove Imamate of Ali (ra).  The Rafidhi (al-Hilli) says that the Prophet (saw) said to Ali (ra): 'You are from me I am from you'.  In response to that we say: The Hadith is Saheeh and both Bukhari and Muslim has narrated it.  When Ali, Jafar and Zayd were arguing over the daughter of Hamza, the Prophet (saw) gave her to her aunt.  He (saw) then said to Ali (ra): 'You are from me and I am from you'. And to Jafar he said 'Your Adab (manner) resembles mine'. And to Zayd he (saw) said: 'You are my brother and my Mawla (friend etc)'.  It should be said that the Prophet (saw) said the same thing to other Companions as well.  In Sahihayn (Bukhari & Muslim) it has been narrated from Abu Musa ashari that the Prophet (saw) said to the Ashari tribe 'They are from me and I am from them'.  In addition, the Prophet (saw) said to [the Companion] Julaybib: 'He is from me and I am from him.'  This is narrated in Muslim...

It becomes clear that the saying of the Prophet (saw) is not specific for Ali but other people were addressed with the same statement aswell. Therefore, it doesn't prove the Imamate of Ali or his superiority (over Abubakr and Omar)."

So let us recap:

1.  The Prophet (saw) said to Jafar (ra) that his adab resembled the adab of the Prophet (saw).

2.  The Prophet (saw) said to Zayd (ra) that he is the Prophet's (saw) brother and mawla (whichever definition the Shias want, lol).

3.  The Prophet (saw) said to the Ashari tribe that they are from him and he is from them.

4.  The Prophet (saw) said to Julaybib (ra) that he is from the Prophet (saw) and the Prophet (saw) is from him.

Now what?
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: iceman on November 16, 2017, 05:19:44 AM
Have a dig at this;

Truly, ‘Ali is from me and I am from him (inna ʿAlī minnī wa anā minhu), and he is the walī (patron/spiritual master) of every believer after me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 19, No. 4636; Ahmad b. Shu‘ayb al-Nasa’i, Khasa’is Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, Tehran 1998, 129)

‘Ali is with the Qurʾān and the Qurʾān is with ‘Ali. They will not separate from each other until they return to me at the [paradisal pool] (al-ḥawḍ).

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 927, No. 4685)

[To ‘Ali]: Are you not happy that you should have in relation to me the rank of Aaron in relation to Moses, except that there is no prophet after me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(Ahmad b. Shu‘ayb al-Nasa’i, Khasa’is Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, Tehran 1998, 76)

Three things were revealed to me regarding ʿAlī: he is the leader of the Muslims, the guide of the pious and chief of the radiantly devout (sayyidu’l-muslimīn, imāmu’l-muttaqīn, wa qāʾidu’l-ghurra’lmuḥajjalīn).

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 936, No. 4723)

Gazing upon ʿAlī is an act of worship (al-naẓar ilā ʿAlī ʿibāda).))

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 938, No. 4736)

May God have mercy on ʿAlī. O God, make the truth revolve around ʿAlī wherever he turns (adiri’l-ḥaqq maʿahu ḥaythu dāra)

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 927, No. 4686)

‘Ali is as my own soul (ka-nafsī).

Prophet Muhammad,
(Ahmad b. Shu‘ayb al-Nasa’i, Khasa’is Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, Tehran 1998, 104)

You [‘Ali] are from me and I am from you (anta minnī wa anā minka).

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 924, No. 4672)

Whoever obeys ʿAli obeys me, and whoever disobeys him disobeys me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 925, No. 4678)

[To ‘Ali]: You will clarify for my community that over which they will differ after me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 926, No. 4678)

There is one amongst you who will fight for the taʿwīl [spiritual interpretation] of the Qurʾān as I have fought for its tanzīl [literal revelation].’ Abū Bakr asked, ‘Is it I?’. The Prophet said, ‘No’. ʿUmar asked, ‘Is it I?’. The Prophet said, ‘No, it is the one who is mending the sandal.’ The Prophet had given ʿAlī his sandal to mend.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 926, No. 4679)

O ʿAli, whoever separates himself from me separates himself from God, and whoever separates himself from you, O ʿAli, separates himself from me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 927, No. 4682)

‘Ali is from me and I am from him (ʿAlī minnī wa anā minhu), and nobody can fulfill my duty but myself and ʿAli.

Prophet Muhammad,
(Ahmad b. Shu‘ayb al-Nasa’i, Khasa’is Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, Tehran 1998, 106)

He whose mawlā [master] I am, this ʿAlī is his mawla (man kuntu mawlāhu fa-ʿAlī mawlāhu).

Prophet Muhammad,
(Cited in numerous Sunni Muslim Hadith sources listed here)

The extrapolations and fabrications Shias have made from these mostly weak reports are too many to count.  In that YouTube discussion, Shia Blade Runner was claiming that the Prophet (saw) said, "whoever curses Ali curses me".  This is on top of "whoever angers Fatima angers me" (though that one backfires because the Prophet (saw) said that to Imam Ali (ra) and it is recorded in Shia books).  Then you have "Hussain is from me and I am from Hussain".  Also, the countless versions of "O Ali, your Shia......"

Recently, I was looking for Minhaj us Sunnah in English but could not find anything.  However, a brother posted an excerpt from the book.  He shared:
"Chapter 54. The saying of the Prophet (saw) about Ali (ra): 'You are from and I am from you' does not prove Imamate of Ali (ra).  The Rafidhi (al-Hilli) says that the Prophet (saw) said to Ali (ra): 'You are from me I am from you'.  In response to that we say: The Hadith is Saheeh and both Bukhari and Muslim has narrated it.  When Ali, Jafar and Zayd were arguing over the daughter of Hamza, the Prophet (saw) gave her to her aunt.  He (saw) then said to Ali (ra): 'You are from me and I am from you'. And to Jafar he said 'Your Adab (manner) resembles mine'. And to Zayd he (saw) said: 'You are my brother and my Mawla (friend etc)'.  It should be said that the Prophet (saw) said the same thing to other Companions as well.  In Sahihayn (Bukhari & Muslim) it has been narrated from Abu Musa ashari that the Prophet (saw) said to the Ashari tribe 'They are from me and I am from them'.  In addition, the Prophet (saw) said to [the Companion] Julaybib: 'He is from me and I am from him.'  This is narrated in Muslim...

It becomes clear that the saying of the Prophet (saw) is not specific for Ali but other people were addressed with the same statement aswell. Therefore, it doesn't prove the Imamate of Ali or his superiority (over Abubakr and Omar)."

So let us recap:

1.  The Prophet (saw) said to Jafar (ra) that his adab resembled the adab of the Prophet (saw).

2.  The Prophet (saw) said to Zayd (ra) that he is the Prophet's (saw) brother and mawla (whichever definition the Shias want, lol).

3.  The Prophet (saw) said to the Ashari tribe that they are from him and he is from them.

4.  The Prophet (saw) said to Julaybib (ra) that he is from the Prophet (saw) and the Prophet (saw) is from him.

Now what?

The Prophet said to Ali;

"You are to me as Haroon was to Musa"

Now what was Haroon to Musa?

Is it hard to figure out? No it is not. Just hard for some to accept and digest.

For us this is enough to know that Ali was a Wasi, Wali and Wazeer [successor] to Muhammad just as Haroon was to Musa.
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: muslim720 on November 16, 2017, 05:32:22 AM
The Prophet said to Ali;

"You are to me as Haroon was to Musa"

Now what was Haroon to Musa?

Is it hard to figure out? No it is not. Just hard for some to accept and digest.

For us this is enough to know that Ali was a Wasi, Wali and Wazeer [successor] to Muhammad just as Haroon was to Musa.

May Allah (swt) admit Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah (rah) to the highest level in Paradise; with one hadith, he destroyed Al-Hilli and with his knowledge, I decimated your entire list, lol.

So now you are reaching out for straws, like a drowning person.  Did you not know that Haroon (asws) did not succeed Musa (asws)?  In fact, Haroon (asws) died in the lifetime of Musa (asws).  Also, Imam Ali (ra) was not the only person to be left behind by the Prophet (saw) to look after those who could not go to war (women, children, elderly).  Lastly, the Prophet (saw) said, "If there was a prophet after me, then it would be Umar".  The scholars say that this was said specifically regarding Umar (ra) and not anyone else, not even Abu Bakr (ra) who we rank higher than Umar (ra), because Umar (ra) had the qualities and characteristics of being a prophet.  However, prophethood and all sorts of divine revelation ended with the Prophet (saw).

What is your next excuse?
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: iceman on November 16, 2017, 05:38:33 AM
The Prophet said to Ali;

"You are to me as Haroon was to Musa"

Now what was Haroon to Musa?

Is it hard to figure out? No it is not. Just hard for some to accept and digest.

For us this is enough to know that Ali was a Wasi, Wali and Wazeer [successor] to Muhammad just as Haroon was to Musa.

May Allah (swt) admit Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah (rah) to the highest level in Paradise; with one hadith, he destroyed Al-Hilli and with his knowledge, I decimated your entire list, lol.

So now you are reaching out for straws, like a drowning person.  Did you not know that Haroon (asws) did not succeed Musa (asws)?  In fact, Haroon (asws) died in the lifetime of Musa (asws).  Also, Imam Ali (ra) was not the only person to be left behind by the Prophet (saw) to look after those who could not go to war (women, children, elderly).  Lastly, the Prophet (saw) said, "If there was a prophet after me, then it would be Umar".  The scholars say that this was said specifically regarding Umar (ra) and not anyone else, not even Abu Bakr (ra) who we rank higher than Umar (ra), because Umar (ra) had the qualities and characteristics of being a prophet.  However, prophethood and all sorts of divine revelation ended with the Prophet (saw).

What is your next excuse?

LOL. What ever it is you can keep crossing it out be it you or who ever. The crossing out tells how much the truth hurts. So what happened to the red box at the bottom left of my posts? Nobody dared to answer that till yet. Would you like to give it a shot?
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: iceman on November 16, 2017, 05:42:45 AM
As far as we are concerned Ali succeeded Muhammad and certain people just could not accept and digest it. So they made their own plans and decisions and then used means of violence and threatening behavior to impose that decision. History is there. Rub it out if you want to or can.
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: muslim720 on November 16, 2017, 05:52:29 AM
LOL. What ever it is you can keep crossing it out be it you or who ever. The crossing out tells how much the truth hurts. So what happened to the red box at the bottom left of my posts? Nobody dared to answer that till yet. Would you like to give it a shot?

I see a line through your comments.  Everything you type appears to be crossed-out or with a line through the text.  I do not know if it is by accident or design, however, the "truth" you speak of has already been refuted.  Your comeback "You are to me as Haroon was to Musa" has long been acknowledged by Shia propaganda sites and they now admit that while Haroon (asws) died before Musa (asws), so he did not succeed Musa (asws), that the point still (somehow) stands.  I suggest you read it and get up-to-speed.

As for the red box, the only red box I know and have seen are the ones outside grocery shops.  They dispense Blu-Ray and DVD movies.  If you have a movie you want to check out, let me know.  I will cover the rental cost so long as you return it on time :)
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: muslim720 on November 16, 2017, 05:57:14 AM
As far as we are concerned Ali succeeded Muhammad and certain people just could not accept and digest it. So they made their own plans and decisions and then used means of violence and threatening behavior to impose that decision. History is there. Rub it out if you want to or can.

As far as you are concerned, you were a mere 10 to 15 percent of the ummah and will forever remain as such.  If you know Dr. Hosein Nasr - an Iranian professor and scholar at George Washington University - watch some of his YouTube videos.  In one, he explains that it is common in religion to see a certain sect become the majority and then fizzle out with Islam being the only exception.  No other religion has shown this trend where one group, one sect, has been the dominant sect and always enjoying the 85 to 90 percent majority since the outset of sectarian divide.  Like many other Shia sects, the Ithna Asharis may not be amongst us in the next few hundred years.  It would not have been the dominant Shia sect if not for Safavvids.
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: Ijtaba on November 16, 2017, 01:39:29 PM
Looks like the main culprit of confusion in shiasm was imam  ;D

[Ahmad ibn Idris from Muhamad ibn ‘Abdul-Jabbar from al-Hassan ibn `Ali from Tha’alabah ibn Maymoun from Zurarah ibn A’ayun that he said: I asked Imam al-Baqir (as) a question so the Imam gave me the answer then another man came and asked the same question so the Imam gave him a different answer, then another one came and asked about it so the Imam gave him a completely different answer than both of us. when both men left I asked the Imam: “O son of Rassul Allah, two men from ‘Iraq and from your Shia came to ask you but you gave each of them different answers.” He replied: “O Zurarah, this is good for us so that we may remain safer because if you all agree on this then the people will believe in it and they would be guided to us but we will not remain for long.”

Later I said to his son al-Sadiq (as): “Your Shia always walk away from you with different opinions and answers” so he gave me the same reply as his father.]

source: al-Kafi 1/65.
al-Majlisi said: Muwaththaq like the Sahih.
al-Behbudi said: Sahih.

Read the red part, imam clearly didnt want many people to believe and be guided.

I have one question.

Isn't ALLAH (SWT) powerful to guide whole humanity to HIMSELF?

If yes then why do we see many people following the path of misguidance.
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: Ijtaba on November 16, 2017, 02:11:17 PM
Is this a real question or a joke? You don't know that your own scholars put a stamp on shia ahadith as taqiyya, because those were wrong rulings or went against what they believe as correct? Heaps of sample here http://www.twelvershia.net/2014/05/29/taqiyya-the-other-face/

First we need to know what is the duty and role of an Imam.

Narrated Ibn `Umar:
I heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) saying, "All of you are Guardians." Yunis said: Ruzaiq bin Hukaim wrote to Ibn Shihab while I was with him at Wadi-al-Qura saying, "Shall I lead the Jumua prayer?" Ruzaiq was working on the land (i.e. farming) and there was a group of Sudanese people and some others with him; Ruzaiq was then the Governor of Aila. Ibn Shihab wrote (to Ruzaiq) ordering him to lead the Jumua prayer and telling him that Salim told him that `Abdullah bin `Umar had said, "I heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'All of you are guardians and responsible for your wards and the things under your care. The Imam (i.e. ruler) is the guardian of his subjects and is responsible for them and a man is the guardian of his family and is responsible for them. A woman is the guardian of her husband's house and is responsible for it. A servant is the guardian of his master's belongings and is responsible for them.' I thought that he also said, 'A man is the guardian of his father's property and is responsible for it. All of you are guardians and responsible for your wards and the things under your care."


Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 893
In-book reference : Book 11, Hadith 18
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 2, Book 13, Hadith 18


According to us Shias: Imam (a.s) is a person who is guardian of his subjects and is responsible for their both worldly and religious affairs.

If two shias comes to Imam (a.s) asking same question and Imam (a.s) answers them with complete opposite answer then they both should follow the orders of Imam (a.s). For e.g. a question is put forward regarding how to drink water and Imam (a.s) answers one person to drink water while standing and another person to drink water while sitting. In this case they both should follow the Imam (a.s) as by doing so they would be obeying the Imam (a.s) And according to our (i.e. Shi'ite) view people obeying Imam (a.s) would enter Jannah.

On the other hand, a non-shia comes to Imam (a.s) and asks him question regarding some issue then whether Imam (a.s) gives him correct answer or gives him answer according to his own (i.e. non-shia) fiqh it does not matter because even if non-shia acts according to correct answer it won't save him because he acted correctly but without acknowledging the status and authority of the Imam (a.s) as being divinely appointed by GOD.

You may disagree with what I said above. I only stated what we shias believe.
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: Hadrami on November 16, 2017, 03:00:38 PM
If two shias comes to Imam (a.s) asking same question and Imam (a.s) answers them with complete opposite answer then they both should follow the orders of Imam (a.s). For e.g. a question is put forward regarding how to drink water and Imam (a.s) answers one person to drink water while standing and another person to drink water while sitting. In this case they both should follow the Imam (a.s) as by doing so they would be obeying the Imam (a.s) And according to our (i.e. Shi'ite) view people obeying Imam (a.s) would enter Jannah.
so imam is guiding his followers by commanding his followers to go against what Allah & His Messenger has prescribed. Your "explanation" makes it sound even worse now. Everytime shia try to get out of a
hole, you guys only go deeper into it 😂
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: Ijtaba on November 16, 2017, 03:41:16 PM
so imam is guiding his followers by commanding his followers to go against what Allah & His Messenger has prescribed. Your "explanation" makes it sound even worse now. Everytime shia try to get out of a
hole, you guys only go deeper into it 😂

Not according to us.

According to us Imam (a.s) is guiding his (a.s) followers to go with what ALLAH (SWT) & HIS Messenger (s.a.w.w) has prescribed.
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: Hadrami on November 17, 2017, 08:06:23 AM
so imam is guiding his followers by commanding his followers to go against what Allah & His Messenger has prescribed. Your "explanation" makes it sound even worse now. Everytime shia try to get out of a
hole, you guys only go deeper into it 😂

Not according to us.

According to us Imam (a.s) is guiding his (a.s) followers to go with what ALLAH (SWT) & HIS Messenger (s.a.w.w) has prescribed.

ok, so giving wrong religious rulings which shia own scholars believed were incorrect is guidance. Man, the more you answer the deeper hole you get into 😂
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: whoaretheshia on November 23, 2017, 12:52:46 AM
Imam is a guide, but he needs to misguide many times


Actually, the vast majority of our Fiqh can be easily discerned, and our Aqeeah is pretty much undisputed. Not only do we Shia's all know where to put our hands to pray, we do not have wildly different ideas about what Allah [swt] is. If i wanted to become a Sunni tomorrow, i would not even know how the Prophet [saw] placed his hands. Was it by the sides - or is this a B'idah? Was it below the belly, in the middle, or on the chest ?

Perhaps what is unforgivable is the differences in Aqeedah. Does Allah have a place and position, two feet, two hands, two fingers, a shin, eyes, but nothing like ours, or are we to say we don't know what they mean at all and deny Allah literally has any of these ? You have enormous divisions in Aqeedah between the Ashari and Maturidi, and the Salafi-Athari, all strangely claiming to accept the very same hadith books and classical scholars but coming out with wildly divergent opinions on the most fundamental issues.


Quote
Imam is brave, but he needs to hide 1000+ years due to afraid getting killed

My dear brother, were the companions of the cave not preserved by Allah [swt] for hundreds of years after fleeing and oppressive ruler? Is Isa [as] not someone who was raised and will be returned at the end of times to kill Djall, and will even offer Salah [according to Muslim] behind al-Mahdi? If Allah [swt] wills to take an individual and keep him away for however long he wishes, within his plan and decree, who are we to criticise it ?

Imam al-Mahdi isn't in Ghaybah merely because he 'will be killed'. He is there because Allah [swt] has decreed the Mahdi, from the Ahlulbayt of Muhammed [saw], through the line of Fatima, has a special role at the end of times, and thus by the will and command of Allah has decreed he be in Ghaybah until the appointed time which he will fulfil the prophecy all Muslim agree upon. No doubt his life was in danger, and he could have continued to just write letters to representatives, but we find Allah did not decree this after a certain point.

Quote
Imam is the leader of Muslim army, but he avoids facing his enemy, because he is afraid to be killed

He has a role at the end of times. He is awaiting the decree from Allah [swt]. If Allah [swt] wanted he could have made Muhammed [saw] effortlessly take over the entire world, and united us all as one people, but Allah [swt] decrees certain things in his infinite wisdom and to test us.

Quote
Imam is needed to guide people, because he is the only one who can't make mistake, but shia scholars who will make mistakes are guiding people (and misguide too intentionally like imam) In short, whatever shia say and believe, they will also believe and in practise doing the opposite

I would kindly like you to clarify this.
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: whoaretheshia on November 23, 2017, 12:56:06 AM
Imam is a guide, but he needs to misguide many times


Actually, the vast majority of our Fiqh can be easily discerned, and our Aqeeah is pretty much undisputed. Not only do we Shia's all know where to put our hands to pray, we do not have wildly different ideas about what Allah [swt] is. If i wanted to become a Sunni tomorrow, i would not even know how the Prophet [saw] placed his hands. Was it by the sides - or is this a B'idah? Was it below the belly, in the middle, or on the chest ? With respect dear brother, you can not agree on where to put your hands in Salah, it is best not to attack us on being misguided.

Perhaps what is unforgivable is the differences in Aqeedah. Does Allah have a place and position, two feet, two hands, two fingers, a shin, eyes, but nothing like ours, or are we to say we don't know what they mean at all and deny Allah literally has any of these ? You have enormous divisions in Aqeedah between the Ashari and Maturidi, and the Salafi-Athari, all strangely claiming to accept the very same hadith books and classical scholars but coming out with wildly divergent opinions on the most fundamental issues.

Where do i place my hands in Salah? What Aqeedah do i follow? I have not even touched the surface here.


Quote
Imam is brave, but he needs to hide 1000+ years due to afraid getting killed

My dear brother, were the companions of the cave not preserved by Allah [swt] for hundreds of years after fleeing and oppressive ruler? Is Isa [as] not someone who was raised and will be returned at the end of times to kill Djall, and will even offer Salah [according to Muslim] behind al-Mahdi? If Allah [swt] wills to take an individual and keep him away for however long he wishes, within his plan and decree, who are we to criticise it ?

Imam al-Mahdi isn't in Ghaybah merely because he 'will be killed'. He is there because Allah [swt] has decreed the Mahdi, from the Ahlulbayt of Muhammed [saw], through the line of Fatima, has a special role at the end of times, and thus by the will and command of Allah has decreed he be in Ghaybah until the appointed time which he will fulfil the prophecy all Muslim agree upon. No doubt his life was in danger, and he could have continued to just write letters to representatives, but we find Allah did not decree this after a certain point. During the end of times, there will be mass confusion and his enemies will be far greater, but he will actually then fight, because Allah has permitted him and decreed it.

Quote
Imam is the leader of Muslim army, but he avoids facing his enemy, because he is afraid to be killed

He has a role at the end of times. He is awaiting the decree from Allah [swt]. If Allah [swt] wanted he could have made Muhammed [saw] effortlessly take over the entire world, and united us all as one people, but Allah [swt] decrees certain things in his infinite wisdom and to test us.

Quote
Imam is needed to guide people, because he is the only one who can't make mistake, but shia scholars who will make mistakes are guiding people (and misguide too intentionally like imam) In short, whatever shia say and believe, they will also believe and in practise doing the opposite

I would kindly like you to clarify this.
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: Hadrami on November 23, 2017, 01:41:36 AM
Imam is a guide, but he needs to misguide many times


Actually, the vast majority of our Fiqh can be easily discerned, and our Aqeeah is pretty much undisputed. Not only do we Shia's all know where to put our hands to pray, we do not have wildly different ideas about what Allah [swt] is. If i wanted to become a Sunni tomorrow, i would not even know how the Prophet [saw] placed his hands. Was it by the sides - or is this a B'idah? Was it below the belly, in the middle, or on the chest ? With respect dear brother, you can not agree on where to put your hands in Salah, it is best not to attack us on being misguided.
But one of your greatest scholars which hour website says was "the leader of the (shia) sect", at-Tusi claim that shia has more differences among them than Hanafi, Maliki & Syafii put together though.

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Imam is brave, but he needs to hide 1000+ years due to afraid getting killed

My dear brother, were the companions of the cave not preserved by Allah [swt] for hundreds of years after fleeing and oppressive ruler? Is Isa [as] not someone who was raised and will be returned at the end of times to kill Djall, and will even offer Salah [according to Muslim] behind al-Mahdi? If Allah [swt] wills to take an individual and keep him away for however long he wishes, within his plan and decree, who are we to criticise it ?
I was just quoting your own hadith where imam said mahdi was afraid to be killed. Besides did people of the cave suppose to lead us now? Or did Prophet Isa AS suppose to guide us now? You try to compare different things. Prophet Isa AS has finished his nubuwwah, conveyed his messages, FACE HIS ENEMIES & DIDNT HIDE DUE TO HIM AFRAID GETTING KILLED, he wont even lead muslimwhen he came back. People of Cave? Come on bro, you can do better conparison.

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Imam is the leader of Muslim army, but he avoids facing his enemy, because he is afraid to be killed

He has a role at the end of times. He is awaiting the decree from Allah [swt]. If Allah [swt] wanted he could have made Muhammed [saw] effortlessly take over the entire world, and united us all as one people, but Allah [swt] decrees certain things in his infinite wisdom and to test us.
Your imam said mahdi was afraid to be killed bro. Every human have fear, thats normal, but not for 1000+ years. This is shia who often ridicule sahaba who left a battle. Those samr sahaba at least return to face his enemy another day. But afraid for 1000+ year?

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Imam is needed to guide people, because he is the only one who can't make mistake, but shia scholars who will make mistakes are guiding people (and misguide too intentionally like imam) In short, whatever shia say and believe, they will also believe and in practise doing the opposite

I would kindly like you to clarify this.
Shia say imam nèeded to preserve the pureness of deen, because he cant make mistake, but at the moment fallible scholars who can make mistake preserve the deen. In practice, imam is not always needed, shia need scholars more than imam which disprove the core of shiism.
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: iceman on November 23, 2017, 02:37:20 AM
LOL. What ever it is you can keep crossing it out be it you or who ever. The crossing out tells how much the truth hurts. So what happened to the red box at the bottom left of my posts? Nobody dared to answer that till yet. Would you like to give it a shot?

I see a line through your comments.  Everything you type appears to be crossed-out or with a line through the text.  I do not know if it is by accident or design, however, the "truth" you speak of has already been refuted.  Your comeback "You are to me as Haroon was to Musa" has long been acknowledged by Shia propaganda sites and they now admit that while Haroon (asws) died before Musa (asws), so he did not succeed Musa (asws), that the point still (somehow) stands.  I suggest you read it and get up-to-speed.

As for the red box, the only red box I know and have seen are the ones outside grocery shops.  They dispense Blu-Ray and DVD movies.  If you have a movie you want to check out, let me know.  I will cover the rental cost so long as you return it on time :)

Not that it worries me but just pointing things out. Be it accidental or design, what a coincidence that it doesn't happen to a non Shia. ☺

As far as the red box is concerned thanks for letting me know the only one you're familiar with. You must be speaking from experience. ☺

Let me point out another red box that is on the bottom left hand corner of your post and others. It gives you the option of like. What happened to mine and other Shia brothers? ☺

Or is this accidental or a design error as well? It was there in the beginning but was removed later. Only pointing out the cheap shots and childish behaviour of admins and mods.

Well if such cheap tactics and childish behaviour gives and boosts someone's confidence then why not. Who ever succeeded Moses I'm sure wasn't staged by his companions. I'm sure the decision of succession was down to Allah.
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: iceman on November 23, 2017, 02:49:22 AM
The whole point of Shiaism is that we follow Qoran and Sunah and our belief and faith, the ideology we believe in is according to Qoran and Sunah. And I will happily challenge anyone who says otherwise. Or I'm up for the challenge if anyone proves otherwise. As far as history books are concerned be it yours or ours, written by a Shia scholar or a Suni, there are certain things we accept and certain we reject just as you do.

But as far as Qoran and Sunah is concerned our ideology is according to it and yours isn't. Try discussing one subject/topic at a time and step by step. Take a look at any thread here, which is on topic? None. Other things are brought in to derail the subject and to move away from the topic.
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: iceman on November 23, 2017, 02:52:52 AM
An anti Shia, someone who has been raised and brought up by being filled and pumped up with bitterness and hate regarding Shiaism and Shias is going to tell us what Shiaism is in a nutshell?

Come on, pull the other one!
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: whoaretheshia on November 23, 2017, 01:57:16 PM
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But one of your greatest scholars which hour website says was "the leader of the (shia) sect", at-Tusi claim that shia has more differences among them than Hanafi, Maliki & Syafii put together though.

Different time periods. It is one thing when a Madhab is in its infancy and evolving, and another thing when it has been well over a millennia. Shia's are united in the vast majority of Fiqh issues. We all pray the same way, and know where to put our hands. However, if i wanted to become a Sunni i would not even be assured how the Prophet ﷺ placed his hands.

Put side issues of Fiqh, where differences occur. What about Aqeedah? May i ask you, what school of Aqeedah you follow? Are you aware that the owners of this website, who i say are polite and have integrity, still affirm the Salafi-Creed, and declare the Ashari-Sunni and the Maturidi-Sunni as deviants? Are you aware that the majority of Sunni scholars have been Ashari and Maturidi, and this is like dlecaring an enormous part of your heritage as deviant?

If i wanted to become a Sunni tomorrow, i would have different groups all claiming to hold onto the same book but having wildly different understandings of Allah, the Almighty. Whatever differences existed even back in the time of Shaykh-Tusi - which was a period of reformation and evolution, we certainly did not divide based on our understanding on the attributes of Allah.

Watch this Ashari-Maturidi Hanafi brother claiming Salafi's are deviant. Then go and watch the Salafi's calling them the deviants. This is not a joke brother, this is Aqeedah.



I was just quoting your own hadith where imam said mahdi was afraid to be killed. Besides did people of the cave suppose to lead us now? Or did Prophet Isa AS suppose to guide us now? You try to compare different things. Prophet Isa AS has finished his nubuwwah, conveyed his messages, FACE HIS ENEMIES & DIDNT HIDE DUE TO HIM AFRAID GETTING KILLED, he wont even lead muslimwhen he came back. People of Cave? Come on bro, you can do better conparison.

There is no doubt Imam al-Askari, whose title comes from being imprisoned in the land named Askar, was in grave threat and danger from the ruling authorities, who recognised the uprisings of those who wanted to put the Banu Hashim in power and maintained rule must come from the line of Fatima. Rather than using the method of al-Ma'mun in trying to please these people and bring the Ahlulbayt close (and he did this by making Imam al-Ridha his heir, changing the states colours to green to reflect the colour of Banu al-Hashim among other things) other leaders opted to be more stringent and brutal.  For both the Shia, and al-Madhi, those were dangerous times. One of the reasons for his Ghaybah was because of this.

However, he has not remained in Ghaybah because he fears being killed and is hiding. Are the hadith not clear that he will rise when oppression is rife, when his enemies are numerous and when he will fight and war against the corruption globally? If he was hiding because he was afraid, why come out of Ghaybah when it is essentially the end of times and you are going to have to fight not just the enemies of Islam in Arabia, but enemies the world over.

He has been put into Ghaybah because in the same where Allah [swt] has preserved Isa [as] until the end of times, he has decreed both Isa [as] and al-Madhi have a duty to play. He has decreed it, it is prophesied in Mutawattir hadith, and is the command and will of Allah [swt].

I only made mention of the Ashab-e-Kahf because you should not be surprised for people being placed into occultation and Allah preserving their lives until a time decrees. It may also be the case this is a test for the Ummah in the same way keeping Musa [as] remaining for ten additional days was a test of faith of the community.

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Your imam said mahdi was afraid to be killed bro. Every human have fear, thats normal, but not for 1000+ years. This is shia who often ridicule sahaba who left a battle. Those samr sahaba at least return to face his enemy another day. But afraid for 1000+ year?

There's a difference when you have an army of tens of thousands and outnumber the enemy under the Prophet of Allah, and then run away and flee, and being in a situation where you barely have large numbers, the leaders the empire are in far more control and power, and there is absolutely no chance or practical benefit to fighting - but it is better to preserve the lives of your followers and survival of the right view of Islam.

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Shia say imam nèeded to preserve the pureness of deen, because he cant make mistake, but at the moment fallible scholars who can make mistake preserve the deen. In practice, imam is not always needed, shia need scholars more than imam which disprove the core of shiism.

I think you have misunderstood it. Shia's claims that the source of the religion has to be pure. When Muhammed ﷺ was sent, and if he erred and sinned and made mistakes, the source by which we obtain the Sunnah would be corrupted as we would be seconding guessing the Prophet ﷺ. We need to have absolute and full confidence in the source - even if people who take from the source can make a mistake. This also applies for the second of the two weighty things, the Ahlulbayt, who preserved his sunnah and were representatives of Allah. If they sinned, erred, began to make mistakes , the pure source would be corrupted.

So even though people can make mistakes when reading the Quran, the Quran itself is not corrupted. Even if people can make mistakes in understanding the true morals by which to live, the Sunnah itself is not corrupted. Yes,there exists fake ahadith, weak a hadith, traditions which when one studies can be discarded as they go against many other authentic traditions even when said under dissimulation, but the source remains pure and there are clear routes to get to it.

I hope i have explained it clear brother , do write back if you wish.
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: Hadrami on November 23, 2017, 05:20:51 PM
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But one of your greatest scholars which hour website says was "the leader of the (shia) sect", at-Tusi claim that shia has more differences among them than Hanafi, Maliki & Syafii put together though.

Different time periods. It is one thing when a Madhab is in its infancy and evolving, and another thing when it has been well over a millennia. Shia's are united in the vast majority of Fiqh issues. We all pray the same way, and know where to put our hands. However, if i wanted to become a Sunni i would not even be assured how the Prophet ﷺ placed his hands.
ah different time period excuse again just like in the other thread.

Watch this Ashari-Maturidi Hanafi brother claiming Salafi's are deviant. Then go and watch the Salafi's calling them the deviants. This is not a joke brother, this is Aqeedah.


it doesnt prove shia is correct, besides you know there are ayatola calling each other deviant. These differences in sunni doesnt prove that shia imamah is true. A sunni can be a maturidi etc and still wont make them believe in shia imamah. There are maturidi, ashari & athari here and you wont see us calling each other kuffar, only shia's creed which consider all of us as kuffar.

There is no doubt Imam al-Askari, whose title comes from being imprisoned in the land named Askar, was in grave threat and danger from the ruling authorities, who recognised the uprisings of those who wanted to put the Banu Hashim in power and maintained rule must come from the line of Fatima. Rather than using the method of al-Ma'mun in trying to please these people and bring the Ahlulbayt close (and he did this by making Imam al-Ridha his heir, changing the states colours to green to reflect the colour of Banu al-Hashim among other things) other leaders opted to be more stringent and brutal.  For both the Shia, and al-Madhi, those were dangerous times. One of the reasons for his Ghaybah was because of this.
what shia mahdi did is worse than the sahaba whom shia often condemned. Some sahaba feared and left battle, but came back to fight another day. Mahdi feared and didnt even face his enemies once let alone in any battle.

However, he has not remained in Ghaybah because he fears being killed and is hiding. Are the hadith not clear that he will rise when oppression is rife, when his enemies are numerous and when he will fight and war against the corruption globally? If he was hiding because he was afraid, why come out of Ghaybah when it is essentially the end of times and you are going to have to fight not just the enemies of Islam in Arabia, but enemies the world over.
Shia narrative since day one is Islam has been corrupted, enemies are large in numbers, shia were oppressed and now you are making excuse that mahdi will only come out if those conditions are happening.

He has been put into Ghaybah because in the same where Allah [swt] has preserved Isa [as] until the end of times, he has decreed both Isa [as] and al-Madhi have a duty to play. He has decreed it, it is prophesied in Mutawattir hadith, and is the command and will of Allah [swt].

I only made mention of the Ashab-e-Kahf because you should not be surprised for people being placed into occultation and Allah preserving their lives until a time decrees. It may also be the case this is a test for the Ummah in the same way keeping Musa [as] remaining for ten additional days was a test of faith of the community.
No need to recycle your weak argument. I have already told you Isa AS has finished his nubuwwah, guide his followers, face his enemies, conveyed his messages while mahdi is hiding before even start what he suppose to do. Did Isa AS left his nubuwwah and leave his duties because he was afraid too? No comparison.


There's a difference when you have an army of tens of thousands and outnumber the enemy under the Prophet of Allah, and then run away and flee, and being in a situation where you barely have large numbers, the leaders the empire are in far more control and power, and there is absolutely no chance or practical benefit to fighting - but it is better to preserve the lives of your followers and survival of the right view of Islam.
Nice try, but there were large shia kingdoms with large armies which defeated their enemies many times and yet mahdi is still hiding. Does he need 100 million strong shia army?


I think you have misunderstood it. Shia's claims that the source of the religion has to be pure. When Muhammed ﷺ was sent, and if he erred and sinned and made mistakes, the source by which we obtain the Sunnah would be corrupted as we would be seconding guessing the Prophet ﷺ. We need to have absolute and full confidence in the source - even if people who take from the source can make a mistake. This also applies for the second of the two weighty things, the Ahlulbayt, who preserved his sunnah and were representatives of Allah. If they sinned, erred, began to make mistakes , the pure source would be corrupted.

So even though people can make mistakes when reading the Quran, the Quran itself is not corrupted. Even if people can make mistakes in understanding the true morals by which to live, the Sunnah itself is not corrupted. Yes,there exists fake ahadith, weak a hadith, traditions which when one studies can be discarded as they go against many other authentic traditions even when said under dissimulation, but the source remains pure and there are clear routes to get to it.

I hope i have explained it clear brother , do write back if you wish.
If some erred reading the Quran it is his fault, but when imam told people to read quran incorrectly that is imam's fault. He intentionally misguide that reader. So he let people do the wrong thing. What kid of guide is that?
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: MuslimK on November 24, 2017, 02:52:45 AM
We are not making it up. Your greatest scholars of all time said it.

al-Tusi in his book al-Ghaybah page 203, al-Murtada in his book al-Shafi volume 4 page 149 and al-Mufid in his book al-Fusoul al-Mukhtarah page 395:

لا سبب للغيبة ولا علة تمنعه من الظهور الا خوف الامام على نفسه من القتل
 
“The only reason behind the ghaybah (occultation) of the Mahdi and the reason that he cannot appear is that he fears that he will be killed.”


http://www.twelvershia.net/2015/09/03/who-was-the-bravest-companion-ibn-hazm/
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: Hadrami on November 24, 2017, 02:37:36 PM
We are not making it up. Your greatest scholars of all time said it.

al-Tusi in his book al-Ghaybah page 203, al-Murtada in his book al-Shafi volume 4 page 149 and al-Mufid in his book al-Fusoul al-Mukhtarah page 395:

لا سبب للغيبة ولا علة تمنعه من الظهور الا خوف الامام على نفسه من القتل
 
“The only reason behind the ghaybah (occultation) of the Mahdi and the reason that he cannot appear is that he fears that he will be killed.”


http://www.twelvershia.net/2015/09/03/who-was-the-bravest-companion-ibn-hazm/
Is it a coincidence that whoistheshia ignore this? He would have to defy "the leader of his sect". Hes in a tight spot 😁
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: Hadrami on November 30, 2017, 10:46:05 PM
if whoaretheshia consistent in applying his own standard then at-Tusi is a nasibi for saying his leader is hiding for years because hes afraid. Thats a word of a nasibi!!!! 😂
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: muslim720 on December 01, 2017, 11:12:58 AM
Not that it worries me but just pointing things out. Be it accidental or design, what a coincidence that it doesn't happen to a non Shia. ☺

Did you ever think that it does not happen in my case because I have been a member for much longer than you have been one?  Shias love to paint themselves as the victims; do you know how many members here have been banned from ShiaChat?  What is worse is that I have an account there which needs an approval every time I post something.  And every time my rebuttal is too much for them to handle, they do not approve it.

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As far as the red box is concerned thanks for letting me know the only one you're familiar with. You must be speaking from experience. ☺

I wonder if you are confusing Redbox with something else.  I suggest you Google it.

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Let me point out another red box that is on the bottom left hand corner of your post and others. It gives you the option of like. What happened to mine and other Shia brothers? ☺

You could have said the "Like" button.  Why call it the "red box"?  As to what happened to it, I don't know; I hope the admins fix it for you.  But are you, and the rest of the Shias here, that shallow that you need each others' approval?

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Or is this accidental or a design error as well? It was there in the beginning but was removed later. Only pointing out the cheap shots and childish behaviour of admins and mods.

Message me all the posts you want to be liked; I will like them on your behalf.  Happy?

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Well if such cheap tactics and childish behaviour gives and boosts someone's confidence then why not.

As I said, let me know and I will like them for you (until your "red box" reappears).

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Who ever succeeded Moses I'm sure wasn't staged by his companions. I'm sure the decision of succession was down to Allah.

You did not even know who succeeded Musa (asws) but you are sure that it "wasn't staged by his companions" and that "the decision of succession was down to Allah".  For someone who did not know Musa's (asws) successor, your claims are a bit too sure.......too sure to fail!
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: iceman on December 02, 2017, 03:17:36 PM
Did you ever think that it does not happen in my case because I have been a member for much longer than you have been one?  Shias love to paint themselves as the victims; do you know how many members here have been banned from ShiaChat?  What is worse is that I have an account there which needs an approval every time I post something.  And every time my rebuttal is too much for them to handle, they do not approve it.

I wonder if you are confusing Redbox with something else.  I suggest you Google it.

You could have said the "Like" button.  Why call it the "red box"?  As to what happened to it, I don't know; I hope the admins fix it for you.  But are you, and the rest of the Shias here, that shallow that you need each others' approval?

Message me all the posts you want to be liked; I will like them on your behalf.  Happy?

As I said, let me know and I will like them for you (until your "red box" reappears).

You did not even know who succeeded Musa (asws) but you are sure that it "wasn't staged by his companions" and that "the decision of succession was down to Allah".  For someone who did not know Musa's (asws) successor, your claims are a bit too sure.......too sure to fail!

I really don't want to get into a tit for tat conversation with you. So my response is be, think and discuss positive.

The title of this thread is 'Shiaism in a nutshell'. So for once lets stick to the thread, subject and what is related to it.

Would you take 'Sunnism in a nutshell' from an anti Suni? Those who dislike or even hate Sunis, are they going to tell us what Sunism is and what Sunis are all about?

Come on, lets be reasonable and logical. Selecting and picking desired bits and pieces from here and there and then trying to paint a picture of any religion, sect or community is not the way of the intelligent and wise.
Title: Re: Shiaism in a nutshell
Post by: muslim720 on December 04, 2017, 01:59:39 AM
I really don't want to get into a tit for tat conversation with you. So my response is be, think and discuss positive.

The title of this thread is 'Shiaism in a nutshell'. So for once lets stick to the thread, subject and what is related to it.

Would you take 'Sunnism in a nutshell' from an anti Suni? Those who dislike or even hate Sunis, are they going to tell us what Sunism is and what Sunis are all about?

Come on, lets be reasonable and logical. Selecting and picking desired bits and pieces from here and there and then trying to paint a picture of any religion, sect or community is not the way of the intelligent and wise.

I do it better; I don't just think and discuss positively.  I think, discuss, meet, greet and associate with Shias in our community, all done positively and without an ounce of dislike or hatred.  In fact, I am against essentialism (if there is such a word).  I am against boiling down an ideology or concept to three or four sentences so you can deal with them just to make believe as though you dealt with the entire ideology and all its nuances.