Sunni Ali vs Shia Ali

[Furkan]

Assalamu alaykum.

Is there an article where the sunn version of Ali (ra) is compared to the shia version of Ali ( far is he from the shia!) ?

If not, then I think this is a good opportunity to show which version of Ali (ra) suits the brave Ali (ra) more. The readers will decide for themselves which Ali is the real mawla.

Your opinions about this?

[Hani]

we'll try to make a quick one.. inshallah

[Taha]

The Shia Ali is the greatest man to have ever lived. He is the eternal Haydar, master of all creation and believers, the second of the Nourain, the living and breathing and speaking Qur'an, the most noble lion of Lady Fatimah (asws), and the personification of the Noor of Allah.

The Sunni Ali is some pathetic kid that's always trailing behind the Shaykhain.

[Husayn]

The Shia 'Ali used to let his wife answer the door when a man knocked. He also stood by and watched her get beaten up.

The Sunni 'Ali would have killed on the spot any man that tried that.

[Furkan]

The Shia Ali is the greatest man to have ever lived. He is the eternal Haydar, master of all creation and believers, the second of the Nourain, the living and breathing and speaking Qur'an, the most noble lion of Lady Fatimah (asws), and the personification of the Noor of Allah.

The Sunni Ali is some pathetic kid that's always trailing behind the Shaykhain.

Taha WUT  please clarify

[Furkan]

And dude, are you saying Ali is God? And ehat about Muhammad (saw) is he lower ranked then Ali (ra) ?

La hawla wa la quwatta illa billah

[Hadrami]

The Shia 'Ali used to let his wife answer the door when a man knocked. He also stood by and watched her get beaten up.

The Sunni 'Ali would have killed on the spot any man that tried that.

Husayn, youre talking to a dreamer. Let him dream. Im 1/100000000000000000+ of the real/ahlussunnah Ali RA when it comes to courage & bravery, but id rather die than being shia version of Ali.

[adnan42]

comparing shia ali and sunni ali is same as comparing christian Isa (a.s) and muslim hazrat Isa (a.s).
christian perceived him as a son of god while Muslim says he's messenger of god.
 messenger is slave and servant of god...... while son of god a.k.a god is the absolute authority.

same is the case here shia ali is demi god while sunni ali was companion of muhammad (pbuh).

the difference between two is that shia ali and christian Isa (son of god) only exist in fairy tales while muslim isa(a.s) and muslim( shia are not muslim) ali actually walk the face of the earth.

[Hani]

The Shia Ali is the greatest man to have ever lived. He is the eternal Haydar, master of all creation and believers, the second of the Nourain, the living and breathing and speaking Qur'an, the most noble lion of Lady Fatimah (asws), and the personification of the Noor of Allah.

The Sunni Ali is some pathetic kid that's always trailing behind the Shaykhain.

Ouch Shirkiness 



How about I give you my Skype address and we discuss this in full detail?

[Ebn Hussein]

The Shia Ali is the greatest man to have ever lived. He is the eternal Haydar, master of all creation and believers, the second of the Nourain, the living and breathing and speaking Qur'an, the most noble lion of Lady Fatimah (asws), and the personification of the Noor of Allah.

The Sunni Ali is some pathetic kid that's always trailing behind the Shaykhain.

Ya Rafidi, it's actually the opposite, even titles like ASSADULLAH AL-GHALIB (the lion of Allah ...) have been given to Ali by the Ahl Al-Sunnah. Muslim Ali was a brave man, never did Taqiyyah, named his (TWO) sons Omar etc., gave his daughter to Omar (not out fear for his hand being cut off as Kulayni the kafir reported!), openly called Abu Bakr and Omar the best of this Ummah (no taqiyyah, he was a real man), washed his feet for wudhu (no taqiyyah, he was a real man and scared of nobody), never said 'Aliyan waliyullah in the adhan, never ordered anyone to hold annual self-flagellation ceremonies for ANYONE etc. whereas your Majoosi Persian Ali is drawn like a Persian homosexual:

AND he was the personal poodle of Omar, now that's what I call a loser who is INDEED trailing behind the Shaykhayn:

http://gift2shias.com/2012/12/26/omars-poodle-ali-ibn-abi-talib-its-a-rafidhis-world/

Peace be upn Abu Turab, Ali Ibn Abi Talib who is as free of the Rafidah Mushriks as Jesus (peace be upon him) is of the Christ-worshiping Mushriks.

[Taha]

Taha WUT  please clarify

Which part would you like clarified, akhi?

And dude, are you saying Ali is God? And ehat about Muhammad (saw) is he lower ranked then Ali (ra) ?La hawla wa la quwatta illa billah

No, of course not.  Neither of those statements are in line with my beliefs.  The Prophets and Imams (pbut) are like a perfect mirror in that they reflect the noor and attributes of God.  There is no incarnation (a'udhibillah).  And no, `Ali is not ranked higher than Muhammad (sawa).  Muhammad (sawa) is the greater of the two noorain and `Ali is the lesser of the two.

Ouch Shirkiness    How about I give you my Skype address and we discuss this in full detail?

Where's the shirk, bro? 

I'd love to discuss on Skype inshaAllah but I still need to wait a while until I can get my own computer inshaAllah.  The group that is holding my funds seems intent on hanging on as long as possible.  InshaAllah soon.

[Rationalist]

Differences can be found under these areas:
1) Taqiyyah
2) Muta
3) Tabarra
4) Rajah
5) Ilm al Jafr, Jamia, Mushaf Fatima
6) Divine Appointment Vs how Imam Ali became the Calipah
7) Imam Ali accepting bayah from non-Shias
8 ) How Imam Hassan become the next Calipah ?
9) Believing that Fatima (sa) was killed by Umar
10) Abi Bakr and Umar seen at the same level as Abi Sufyan and Muawiyah
11) Did Monafiqeen exist in the Meccan period of Islam ?
12) Interpretation of Ghadir ? Why weren't merits like dawah al Ashira and Ghadir used by Imam Ali (as) to remind the Sahaba on the issue of Calipahate.
13) Interpretation of Khutab Shaqshaqiya. When Imam Ali (as) said the son of Abi Qudhafa knew my position, was this divine appointment or merits of Imam Ali (as) ?
14) Since Abi Bakr and Umar didn't kill anyone in the battles they supposedly fled according to the 12ers. Then what about companions like Abu Dharr, Miqdad, Salman, Ammar bin Yassir. They didn't kill anyone in the battles ?
15) Why would Imam Ali (as) tell Muawiyah the companions used to run away in battles ? If he did then Muawiyah use this information to turn the tables on Imam Ali (as)?
16) Who are the Shia of Ali among the companions other then the 4 ?
17) Status of Abdullah ibn Abbas

[Optimus Prime]

No, of course not.  Neither of those statements are in line with my beliefs.  The Prophets and Imams (pbut) are like a perfect mirror in that they reflect the noor and attributes of God.  There is no incarnation (a'udhibillah).  And no, `Ali is not ranked higher than Muhammad (sawa).  Muhammad (sawa) is the greater of the two noorain and `Ali is the lesser of the two.

Just expanding from my original post.

There is no creation that reflects the noor and attirbute of Allah. As the Qur'an states "there is nothing like Allah" to the nearest meaning. That's a statement a Christian would make.

"[He is] Creator of the heavens and the earth. He has made for you from yourselves, mates, and among the cattle, mates; He multiplies you thereby. There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing."
Qur'an: Surah Ash-Shruaa

The Prophets are the best of creation as the Qur'an also confirms not your Imams.

And We gave to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - all [of them] We guided. And Noah, We guided before; and among his descendants, David and Solomon and Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron. Thus do We reward the doers of good. And Zechariah and John and Jesus and Elias - and all were of the righteous. And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot - and all [of them] We preferred over the worlds.

Qur'an: Suarah Al-Anam

[Furkan]

According to shia, Ali (ra) married his daughter to Umar because he feared his hands would be cut, like ebn.Hussein said above.
How can one think this is true? Only a fool would believe this excuse.

According to shia, Ali didnt even take his sword to defend his divinely chosen position.

According to shia, Ali didn't protect Fatima. And the excuse is " Ali was ordered to be patient". Oh common, where is justice gone, damn. And would Ali really let Fatima be hurt and after that do NOTHING. Some Shia say Ali fought Umar after the broken rib event, then I wonder why Ali didn't fight back when he was forced to give baya to Abu Bakr ( according to Shia) ?

You can find many different Shia versions of this so called.brokken rib event, and to believe any of them is so foolish.

[Taha]

There is no creation that reflects the noor and attirbute of Allah. As the Qur'an states "there is nothing like Allah" to the nearest meaning. That's a statement a Christian would make.

"[He is] Creator of the heavens and the earth. He has made for you from yourselves, mates, and among the cattle, mates; He multiplies you thereby. There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing."
Qur'an: Surah Ash-Shruaa

So how do you reconcile all of the hadeeths that state the the Prophet (sawa) was the face of God?  It's obviously metaphorical, but Hanbali's take it seriously.

The Prophets are the best of creation as the Qur'an also confirms not your Imams.

And We gave to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - all [of them] We guided. And Noah, We guided before; and among his descendants, David and Solomon and Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron. Thus do We reward the doers of good. And Zechariah and John and Jesus and Elias - and all were of the righteous. And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot - and all [of them] We preferred over the worlds.

Qur'an: Suarah Al-Anam

Imams are better than Prophets as per the Qur'an.  Ibrahim was a mere Prophet and became an Imam, not the other way around.  Why would he go from a high status to a lower one?  Rather, his status was raised up to the status of an Imam.

[Optimus Prime]

There is no creation that reflects the noor and attirbute of Allah. As the Qur'an states "there is nothing like Allah" to the nearest meaning. That's a statement a Christian would make.

"[He is] Creator of the heavens and the earth. He has made for you from yourselves, mates, and among the cattle, mates; He multiplies you thereby. There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing."
Qur'an: Surah Ash-Shruaa

So how do you reconcile all of the hadeeths that state the the Prophet (sawa) was the face of God?  It's obviously metaphorical, but Hanbali's take it seriously.

The Prophets are the best of creation as the Qur'an also confirms not your Imams.

And We gave to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - all [of them] We guided. And Noah, We guided before; and among his descendants, David and Solomon and Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron. Thus do We reward the doers of good. And Zechariah and John and Jesus and Elias - and all were of the righteous. And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot - and all [of them] We preferred over the worlds.

Qur'an: Suarah Al-Anam

Imams are better than Prophets as per the Qur'an.  Ibrahim was a mere Prophet and became an Imam, not the other way around.  Why would he go from a high status to a lower one?  Rather, his status was raised up to the status of an Imam.

Like hell they are.

Ibrahim (AS) was a Khalil too, and there are only two Allah has declared as his Khalils.  They are Mohammed (SAW) and Ibrahim (AS). If I'm not mistaken this means the highest level of reverence.

Your Imams are not even mentioned in the Qur'an funnily enough, and Ibrahim (AS) was a Prophet and made a leader for mankind. Two distinct stations there. Even the senior companions are superioir than most of the Imams.

[Taha]

Like hell they are.

So you don't believe what the Qur'an has to say?

Ibrahim (AS) was a Khalil too, and there are only two Allah has declared as his Khalils.  They are Mohammed (SAW) and Ibrahim (AS). If I'm not mistaken this means the highest level of reverence.

Are you going to say that Khalil is worse than Prophet?  Or that "senior companions" are better than a Khalil?

Your Imams are not even mentioned in the Qur'an funnily enough, and Ibrahim (AS) was a Prophet and made a leader for mankind. Two distinct stations there.

Imam `Ali is mentioned in the Qur'an.  I posted the quotes somewhere on this forum. 

Even the senior companions are superioir than most of the Imams.

A'udhubillah min an-Nasb.

[Ebn Hussein]

Imams are better than Prophets as per the Qur'an.  Ibrahim was a mere Prophet and became an Imam, not the other way around.  Why would he go from a high status to a lower one?  Rather, his status was raised up to the status of an Imam.

The above already proves your jahl of the Arabic language and the context of the verse. But ven if we go by your Rafidi logic, then this makes Ibrahim superior than all your Imams, since Ibrahim was a Prophet+Imam (later on) while your so called Imams were Imams only.

As for Nasb. A3udhubillah min al-Rafd, since it is Allah who says:

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" 

This Ayah is even makes it more clear:

Not equal among you are those who spent before the conquest [of Makkah] and fought [and those who did so after it]. Those are greater in degree than they who spent afterwards and fought. But to all Allah has promised the best [reward]. And Allah , with what you do, is Acquainted. (57:10)

And if this Ayah was revealed about the Rafidah Imams then they would repeat it day in night to us, yet ..

And (as for) the foremost, the first of the Muhajirs and the Ansars, and those who followed them in goodness, Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him, and He has prepared for them gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them for ever; that is the mighty achievement.(9:100)

It's revealed about the Sahaba! I.e. ALL Muslims, be it the Ahl Al-Bayt or non-Ahl Al-Bayt, Imam Al-Shafi'i, Imam Al-Sadiq ALL of them as per Qur'an have to follow the Sahaba the FOREMOST of the Muhajirin and Ansar (and not a handful as the Takrifi Rafidah sect claims) in GOOD (i.e. obviously not their mistakes, nobody is infallible except the Prophets).

Who are Al-Baqir and Al-Sadiq, Al-Shafi'i, Imam Ahmad etc. compared to those whom acc. to the Qur'an we have to follow in GOOD (Sahaba), the very ones whom ranks we can NEVER reach, neither me, you nor Baqir, Sadiq or Taqi or Naqi (عليهم السلام), for they came after them, after they (Sahaba) made the Hijra, Jihad etc.

But since you openly believe that the Qur'an is distorted (not Ma3sum) but your "Imams" are Ma3sum (infallible), then we can not expect you to care about the Qur'an and Allah's words, can we?

[Optimus Prime]

@Taha, oh, indeed, I do believe what the Qur'an says, but I don't share your interpretation. That's also strange coming from someone who firmly believes the Qur'an has been meddled with.

Allah has made a declerative statement saying how his Prophets (AS) are the best of creation, but no sign or reference of your Imams? Allah hase made the distinction between the two divine positions of Nabi and Rasool very clearly, but Shias suggest there is a third and more superior position Imamat. It's really quite baffling how Shias have to justify this from the Qur'an by toying with different veses and stringing to justify their beliefs where as our Aqeedah has presented to us by Allah in his holy book clear as water.

That verse you refer to is nothing more than praise for the bravery of Ibrahim (AS) after he was willing to surrender to any call from Allah whether it made sense to him or not. This is sort of submission had to be highlighted in a special way for future generations to take and draw inspiration from which, is why Allah referred to him as an Imam for people to come to aspire to. It wasn't an advent of some new divinely position.

The fact Ibrahim (AS) has been crowned as the one of the two Khalils is a testimony and by extension to the greatness of this man. Allah has gone further to include him in the Elite 5 of Ulul Azmi - the greatest Prophets of Allah.

All 3 points are interwined to show us as an Umamah that practices of this man are the ideal embodiment of how to perfect our Iman. This is why Allah (SWT) has instructed Mohammad (SAW) to follow in his foosteps to the nearest meaning.

[Ameen]

My dear brother Ebn Hussein, what a brilliant master piece. Lets take a look at some of your points. You said,

Who are Al Baqir, Al Sadiq etc compared to the companions when they came after",

Excuse me??? They came after, so they are less worthy. And the companions became before, so they are more worthy??? Is this the best you can do??? Before and after is your criteria upon who you judge as more or less worthy/better??? You sound like the Christians and Jews, that Muhammad (pbuh) came after and the others came before, so.....etc. Do you see the mirror???

If the companions were better then why don't you take Sunnah directly from them??? Or why haven't you taken Sunnah directly from them??? Why wait for Aaimah e Arbaa to come along? What was the belief of your kind before Aaimah e Arbaa???

Those who are part of the two incidents, the Mubahila and the Blanket and to whom the two verses apply (Tatheer and Mubahila) are far better and worthy than anyone put together. These verses were specific and are absolutely clear to whom they apply and to whom they don't. There is no disagreement here but the verses you have put forward are in general. A Sahabi is who spends all his life on the Prophet's (pbuh) sayings, not all the Prophet's (pbuh) life.

Why was the Ummah neglected from Hadiths straight after the Prophet's (pbuh) death??? Why wait till Bukhari and Muslim turn up and you have narrations through long chains, which raise suspicion and doubt about their authenticity??? What did the first Khalif do about gathering and safe keeping narrations??? This would have been first hand experience, so what happened that the Ummah had to wait a long time for Bukhari and Muslim???