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Sunni vs Shia debate on Imamah

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zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Sunni vs Shia debate on Imamah
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2017, 02:09:21 PM »
Do you believe mirza ghulam ahmed was a messiah?

Hadrami

Re: Sunni vs Shia debate on Imamah
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2017, 02:52:28 PM »
Do you believe mirza ghulam ahmed was a messiah?

what do you think a qadiyani on taqiyya like him will reply? He said he's not a qadiyani. You just need to read articles on his site about ghulam qadiyani to getan idea of who he really is (http://islamsalvationfromhell.blogspot.com.au/p/ahmadiyyah.html?m=1)

Now zulfiqar, go to qadiyani vs sunni or shia etc site. This is sunni vs 12ers site
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 02:55:06 PM by Hadrami »

ZulFiqar

Re: Sunni vs Shia debate on Imamah
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2017, 08:51:08 PM »
Do you believe mirza ghulam ahmed was a messiah?

Yes but not in the sense of being a Prophet. Messiah is a genus the description of which is a person who travels much, is anointed king, or resembles Jesus of Nazareth. Hence even the Dajjal is a Messiah, but obviously not a Prophet or even a righteous person. Historically there have been many Messiahs like Cyrus the Persian King. It is a mistake to say that Jesus is the only Messiah.
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Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Sunni vs Shia debate on Imamah
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2017, 08:29:43 PM »

I disagree. I didn't mean to compare the roles of Imam and Mujadid by quoting that hadeeth. The only purpose was to prove that the hadeeth you used isn't a proof for divine appointment of Mahdi, since similar wordings was used for Mujadid. Hence it is the issue of Qadr of Allah.

As for the appointment of Mahdi, then

Dawud :: Book 36 : Hadith 4273 Narrated Umm Salamah, Ummul Mu'minin: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Disagreement will occur at the death of a caliph and a man of the people of Medina will come flying forth to Mecca. Some of the people of Mecca will come to him, BRING HIM OUT AGAINST HIS WILL AND SWEAR ALLEGIANCE TO HIM between the Corner and the Maqam. An expeditionary force will then be sent against him from Syria but will be swallowed up in the desert between Mecca and Medina. When the people see that, the eminent saints of Syria and the best people of Iraq will come to him and swear allegiance to him between the Corner and the Maqam. Then there will arise a man of Quraysh whose maternal uncles belong to Kalb and send against them an expeditionary force which will be overcome by them, and that is the expedition of Kalb. Disappointed will be the one who does not receive the booty of Kalb. He will divide the property, and will govern the people by the Sunnah of their Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and establish Islam on Earth. He will remain seven years, then die, and the Muslims will pray over him.

Mahdi would be appointed by people. The above report shows he will be appointed by people AGAINST HIS WILL, which is a proof that he wasn't appointed by Allah.

This Hadith you have quoted is weak. Firstly, Qatada is narrating 'an'an from Salih Abi al-Khalil, while the former is Mudallis, and secondly and more damaging that Salih Abi al-Khalil is narrating from عن صاحب له "a companion of his" who is majhool.
Let me deal with the hadeeth authenticity part first, then we'll deal with the philosophical part. InshaAllah.

This hadeeth has other chains as well, which support each and raise the level of hadeeth to Hasan(fair) atleast. And a number of Scholars have deemed it reliable.

Here are the chains:

(i). This one is without that Majhool narrator
حَدَّثَنَا ابْنُ الْمُثَنَّى، حَدَّثَنَا عَمْرُو بْنُ عَاصِمٍ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو الْعَوَّامِ، حَدَّثَنَا قَتَادَةُ، عَنْ أَبِي الْخَلِيلِ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ الْحَارِثِ، عَنْ أُمِّ سَلَمَةَ، عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم بِهَذَا الْحَدِيثِ وَحَدِيثُ مُعَاذٍ أَتَمُّ
(Abu Dawud)

(ii).
6940 - حدثنا أبو هشام الرفاعي حدثنا وهب بن جرير حدثنا هشام بن أبي عبد الله عن قتادة عن صالح أبي الخليل عن صاحب له - وربما قال صالح : عن مجاهد -
عن أم سلمة زوج النبي - صلى الله عليه و سلم -
قال حسين سليم أسد : إسناده من طريق مجاهد حسن
Musnad Abi Ya’ala, Hadeeth  6940, Muhaddith Hussain Sulaim Asad in Tahqeeq of Abi Ya'la said the chain is Hasan(good) from the route of mujahid.

(iii).
رقم الحديث: 6912
(حديث مرفوع) أَخْبَرَنَا أَبُو يَعْلَى ، قَالَ : حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَزِيدَ بْنِ رِفَاعَةَ ، قَالَ : حَدَّثَنَا وَهْبُ بْنُ جَرِيرٍ ، قَالَ : حَدَّثَنَا هِشَامُ بْنُ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ، عَنْ قَتَادَةَ ، عَنْ صَالِحٍ أَبِي الْخَلِيلِ ، عَنْ مُجَاهِدٍ ، عَنْ أُمِّ سَلَمَةَ ،
(Sahih ibn hibban)

(iv).
رقم الحديث: 1176
(حديث مرفوع) حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ , قَالَ : نا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ , قَالَ : نا عُبَيْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ عَمْرٍو ، عَنْ مَعْمَرٍ ، عَنْ قَتَادَةَ ، عَنْ مُجَاهِدٍ ، عَنْ أُمِّ سَلَمَةَ ، قَالَتْ : سَمِعْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ
[Al Mu’ajam al-awsat, by Al-Tabrani Hadeeth 1176]


As for reliability:

1. Imam Ibn Qayyim said its Hasan(fair) in his book Al-Manar al-Maneef page 142-143
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2. Imam Ibn Hibban included it in his Sahih.


3. Shiekh Abdul qadir arnaut in tahqeeq of Jamiah al asool said its Hasan(fair) vol 10, page 27.
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4. Musnad Abi Ya’ala, vol 12, page 370, Hadeeth  6940, Muhaddith Hussain Sulaim Asad in Tahqeeq of Abi Ya'la said the chain is Hasan(good) from the route of mujahid.
قال حسين سليم أسد : إسناده من طريق مجاهد حسن
http://islamport.com/d/1/mtn/1/85/3152.html

5. Musnad Ahmad,vol 18,  page 298-299, Hadeeth #26568. Sheikh Hamza Zain said chain is weak, but Hadeeth is Sahih due to other chains.
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« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 08:33:09 PM by Noor-us-Sunnah »

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Sunni vs Shia debate on Imamah
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2017, 09:50:37 PM »
But even if for the sake of argument we accept this Hadith that Mahdi will be taken out against his will to be given the pledge of allegiance, all it proves is that the Mahdi will not be aware of his position, but others will recognise him as the Imam sent by Allah before he recognises himself. This hardly means that the people decide who the Mahdi is. It is Allah who raises up the Mahdi, who bears certain characteristics which the people will recognise and hence they will give him the pledge of allegiance. The fact that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم has given us the information about the Mahdi, what exactly his name will be, what he will look like, his lineage, is all sufficient evidence to say that the Prophet has appointed him to lead us by name, meaning he is Mansoos Min Allah.[/size]
People will recognize him, due to the description about him given by the Prophet(SAWS). His coming was foretold by Prophet(SAWS), just like he foretold the rule of 12 caliphs from Quraysh in whose period Islam will remain strong, or just like he foretold about Dajjal, etc; this doesn't  mean 12 Caliphs were divinely appointed by Allah. Hence claiming that people recognizing Mahdi from the descriptions given by Prophet(SAWS) to mean divinely appointed by Allah is preposterous. It's like saying that Umar(ra) recognized owais Qarni(rah) since he was described by Prophet, to mean divinely appointed by Allah.

Importantly, No believer would be hesitant to accept the divinely appointed position given to him by Allah.

Secondly, no one claimed that people will decide who Mahdi is, not at all. But what I said is that people will decide who their leader should be, they will choose Mahdi as their Leader, Not Mahdi. Mahdi is a person not position.

All this proves that it would be Qadr of Allah, not divine appointment. Infact, the claim that Mahdi will be divinely appointed by Allah, is baseless and lacks evidence, your own thoughts doesn't become evidence. The evidence you used of Allah raising up Mahdi, was countered by the Hadeeth of Mujadid after every century being raised up by Allah, for which you had no rational response.

And my view was also supported by the Hadeeth I quoted about people appointing Caliphs after Muhammad(Saws).

All this proves that it would be Qadr of Allah, not divine appointment. So, the claim that Mahdi would be divinely appointed by Allah is not less than heresy(Zandaqa).

ZulFiqar

Re: Sunni vs Shia debate on Imamah
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2017, 12:12:17 AM »

Let me deal with the hadeeth authenticity part first, then we'll deal with the philosophical part. InshaAllah.

This hadeeth has other chains as well, which support each and raise the level of hadeeth to Hasan(fair) atleast. And a number of Scholars have deemed it reliable.

Here are the chains:

(i). This one is without that Majhool narrator
حَدَّثَنَا ابْنُ الْمُثَنَّى، حَدَّثَنَا عَمْرُو بْنُ عَاصِمٍ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو الْعَوَّامِ، حَدَّثَنَا قَتَادَةُ، عَنْ أَبِي الْخَلِيلِ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ الْحَارِثِ، عَنْ أُمِّ سَلَمَةَ، عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم بِهَذَا الْحَدِيثِ وَحَدِيثُ مُعَاذٍ أَتَمُّ
(Abu Dawud)

(ii).
6940 - حدثنا أبو هشام الرفاعي حدثنا وهب بن جرير حدثنا هشام بن أبي عبد الله عن قتادة عن صالح أبي الخليل عن صاحب له - وربما قال صالح : عن مجاهد -
عن أم سلمة زوج النبي - صلى الله عليه و سلم -
قال حسين سليم أسد : إسناده من طريق مجاهد حسن
Musnad Abi Ya’ala, Hadeeth  6940, Muhaddith Hussain Sulaim Asad in Tahqeeq of Abi Ya'la said the chain is Hasan(good) from the route of mujahid.

(iii).
رقم الحديث: 6912
(حديث مرفوع) أَخْبَرَنَا أَبُو يَعْلَى ، قَالَ : حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَزِيدَ بْنِ رِفَاعَةَ ، قَالَ : حَدَّثَنَا وَهْبُ بْنُ جَرِيرٍ ، قَالَ : حَدَّثَنَا هِشَامُ بْنُ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ، عَنْ قَتَادَةَ ، عَنْ صَالِحٍ أَبِي الْخَلِيلِ ، عَنْ مُجَاهِدٍ ، عَنْ أُمِّ سَلَمَةَ ،
(Sahih ibn hibban)

(iv).
رقم الحديث: 1176
(حديث مرفوع) حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ , قَالَ : نا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ , قَالَ : نا عُبَيْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ عَمْرٍو ، عَنْ مَعْمَرٍ ، عَنْ قَتَادَةَ ، عَنْ مُجَاهِدٍ ، عَنْ أُمِّ سَلَمَةَ ، قَالَتْ : سَمِعْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ
[Al Mu’ajam al-awsat, by Al-Tabrani Hadeeth 1176]


As I said, there are 2 problems, but you only addressed 1. The other problem is that Qatada is Mudallis, and in all of these asaneed you have cited Qatada is narrated an'an from either Salih Abi-al-Khalil or Mujahid b. Jabr. And if you read the Muqaddima of Sahih Muslim you will know this pact rule that a 'an'an narration from someone who is Mudallis cannot be considered authentic until and unless there is Tasreeh bil-Sam'a

Hence why the Muhaddith Zubair Ali Zai declared this Hadith weak absolutely, it is not even Hasan Li Ghairihi:



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ZulFiqar

Re: Sunni vs Shia debate on Imamah
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2017, 01:54:36 AM »

People will recognize him, due to the description about him given by the Prophet(SAWS). His coming was foretold by Prophet(SAWS), just like he foretold the rule of 12 caliphs from Quraysh in whose period Islam will remain strong, or just like he foretold about Dajjal, etc; this doesn't  mean 12 Caliphs were divinely appointed by Allah. Hence claiming that people recognizing Mahdi from the descriptions given by Prophet(SAWS) to mean divinely appointed by Allah is preposterous. It's like saying that Umar(ra) recognized owais Qarni(rah) since he was described by Prophet, to mean divinely appointed by Allah.

You have glossed over an important distinction. The Ahadith about the coming of Mahdi are not simply Khabr, they are instructing the believing Muslims to pledge allegiance to him. So your analogy with the 12 caliphs and Dajjal is deficient.
فَإِذَا رَأَيْتُمُوهُ فَبَايِعُوهُ وَلَوْ حَبْوًا عَلَى الثَّلْجِ فَإِنَّهُ خَلِيفَةُ اللَّهِ الْمَهْدِيُّ
"When you see them (black banners from the east) then pledge your allegiance to them even if you have to crawl over the snow, for that is the Caliph of Allah, the Mahdi." (Ibn Maja)

I believe that perhaps certain wording "for he is the caliph of Allah, the Mahdi" is not authentically established, nevertheless, what is established when we analyze all the authentic narrations concerning the Mahdi is that the Muslims are being instructed by the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم himself to pledge allegiance to the Mahdi. In short, the Mahdi is a figure that is Mansoos Min Allah, he has a Nass proving that he has to be given the allegiance. and it is not a Nass that is generic about obeying the Muslim leader, etc., it is a Nass that specifically mentions him as an individual by his name (his name is my name and his father's name is my father's name).

I also mentioned that when the Mahdi appears and is given the pledge of allegiance, there will already be Muslim rulers present. Now ordinarily, the Prophet commanded that obedience has to be given to the person who gets the pledge of allegiance from the Muslims first, and if a second person comes he is a rebel and is to be fought. But in the case of the Mahdi there is an agreed upon exception, hence it proves his Imamate is Mansoos.


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Secondly, no one claimed that people will decide who Mahdi is, not at all. But what I said is that people will decide who their leader should be, they will choose Mahdi as their Leader, Not Mahdi. Mahdi is a person not position.

All this proves that it would be Qadr of Allah, not divine appointment. Infact, the claim that Mahdi will be divinely appointed by Allah, is baseless and lacks evidence, your own thoughts doesn't become evidence. The evidence you used of Allah raising up Mahdi, was countered by the Hadeeth of Mujadid after every century being raised up by Allah, for which you had no rational response.

And my view was also supported by the Hadeeth I quoted about people appointing Caliphs after Muhammad(Saws).

All this proves that it would be Qadr of Allah, not divine appointment. So, the claim that Mahdi would be divinely appointed by Allah is not less than heresy(Zandaqa).

You have to make a distinction between two issues. The fact that the coming of the Mahdi has been destined and that the people will pledge allegiance to him. This is a khabr, and we are not arguing over this point. We both agree on this point. So this is not an issue of Khabr and Qadr. The issue that needs to be discussed is whether or not the Prophet has instructed us to obey the Mahdi, a specific individual. If the answer is in the affirmative then it means he is an Imam that has a Nass, there is no Ikhtiyaar in the matter of his Imamate. You can see that our belief that the Prophet left in his will for us that when the Mahdi appears we take him as our leader, is similar to the Shi'ite belief that the Prophet left in his will that after him the Muslims take Ali كرم الله وجهه as their leader. So in principle we both accept the idea of a divinely appointed Imamate, but we differ over who those specific personalities are and when they appeared. It is not a difference over the theory, but a difference regarding the personalities.
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Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Sunni vs Shia debate on Imamah
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2017, 02:08:41 PM »

As I said, there are 2 problems, but you only addressed 1. The other problem is that Qatada is Mudallis, and in all of these asaneed you have cited Qatada is narrated an'an from either Salih Abi-al-Khalil or Mujahid b. Jabr. And if you read the Muqaddima of Sahih Muslim you will know this pact rule that a 'an'an narration from someone who is Mudallis cannot be considered authentic until and unless there is Tasreeh bil-Sam'a

Hence why the Muhaddith Zubair Ali Zai declared this Hadith weak absolutely, it is not even Hasan Li Ghairihi:


Well the issue of Anonymity was actually not an issue, because the next chain from Abu Dawud, described who that narrator was. As for the issue of Tadlees, then I pointed that several Muhaditeen considered it reliable. As for the issue of Tadlees of Qatada from Abi Khalil, then here is an interesting quote by Shams ud-din AzeemAbadhi.

Shamss ud-din AzeemAbadi who wrote commentary on Sunnan Abu Dawud, he said:
لا شك أن أبا داود يعلم تدليس قتادة بل هو أعرف بهذه القاعدة من ابن خلدون ومع ذلك سكت عنه ثم المنذري وابن القيم ولم يتكلموا على هذا الحديث، فعلم أن عندهم علماً بثبوت سماع قتادة من أبي الخليل لهذا الحديث
Translation: There is no doubt that Abu Dawud (rah) knew about Tadlees of Qatada, he knew this rule from Ibn Khaldun, but he was silent about it. Then Imam Mundhiri and Ibn Qayyim did not talk(criticize) about this hadeeth. So it is known that they have the knowledge about the hearing of  QATADA FROM ABI KHALIL of this hadeeth". Allah knows the best [Awn al Ma'bood Sharh Sunnan Abu Dawud (11/378)]
http://library.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?bk_no=55&ID=&idfrom=7431&idto=7448&bookid=55&startno=6

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Sunni vs Shia debate on Imamah
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2017, 04:28:36 PM »

You have glossed over an important distinction. The Ahadith about the coming of Mahdi are not simply Khabr, they are instructing the believing Muslims to pledge allegiance to him. So your analogy with the 12 caliphs and Dajjal is deficient.
فَإِذَا رَأَيْتُمُوهُ فَبَايِعُوهُ وَلَوْ حَبْوًا عَلَى الثَّلْجِ فَإِنَّهُ خَلِيفَةُ اللَّهِ الْمَهْدِيُّ
"When you see them (black banners from the east) then pledge your allegiance to them even if you have to crawl over the snow, for that is the Caliph of Allah, the Mahdi." (Ibn Maja).
The hadeeth my friend you used was declared weak by the same scholar whose Takhreej you used for the narration of Abu Dawud. That is Zubair Ali Zaee, he weakened this hadeeth in his analysis of Sunan Ibn Majah.

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Also Shiekh Albani too declared this hadeeth weak in his checking of Sunan Ibn Majah.
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As for the reason Albani gave then he said:
    وقد ذهل من صححه عن علته، وهي عنعنة أبي قلابة، فإنه من المدلسين
Those who declared it sahih have overlooked its defect, and that is the ‘an-‘an report of Abu Qilabah, for verily he was from the mudalisin. [Silsila ahadeeth Daeefa, #85]

But to be fair, there were some scholars who authenticated this report, so I want to be good enough not to blame you of double standards.

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I believe that perhaps certain wording "for he is the caliph of Allah, the Mahdi" is not authentically established,
True. Scholars heavily criticized it, Albani called it mUnkar, Ibn Jawzi included it in Mawdooat. etc. When Abu Bakr(ra) was called with his termed he corrected it and told that he is Khalipa of Rasool Allah(saws).

قرأت على أبي عبد الله محمد بن عبد الله بن حكم يعرف بابن البغوي أن محمد بن معاوية أخبرهم قال: حدثنا الفضل بن الحباب الجشمي، حدثنا أبو الوليد الطيالسي، حدثنا نافع بن عمر الجمحي عن ابن أبي مليكة قال: قال رجل لأبي بكر: يا خليفة الله، قال: لست بخليفة الله. قال ولكني أنا خليفة رسول الله وأنا راضٍ بذلك.
( Al-Istiab fi Maarifat al-Ashaab, vol 1, page 297 by Ibn Abdul Bar)
http://islamport.com/w/trj/Web/267/297.htm

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nevertheless, what is established when we analyze all the authentic narrations concerning the Mahdi is that the Muslims are being instructed by the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم himself to pledge allegiance to the Mahdi. In short, the Mahdi is a figure that is Mansoos Min Allah, he has a Nass proving that he has to be given the allegiance. and it is not a Nass that is generic about obeying the Muslim leader, etc., it is a Nass that specifically mentions him as an individual by his name (his name is my name and his father's name is my father's name).
You have hurried in deducing a ruling from the report brother. When you compare both the ahadeeth we are discussing then you can see that they can easily be reconciled. The one from Ibn Majah is talking about the time when Imam Mahdi will be the Caliph leading an army carrying black flags, that time when Muslims see them they must pay allegiance to him.  But how he will become Caliph is mentioned in the Hadeeth of Abu Dawood, which shows people will appoint him as their leader by giving their allegiance against his will. As for the point that after Imam Mahdi is appointed as Caliph by people then others were commanded to pay allegiance to him, then this goes in line of Shariah. The best example is the Caliphate of Abu Bakr siddiq(ra), when he was appointed Caliph by a small group of people, that time the rest of Muslim Ummah where commanded to pay allegiance to him. Similar thing happened during Caliphate of Ali(Ra).

Ali(ra) wrote in his letter to Muawiya(ra) stating:

إنه بايعني القوم الذين بايعوا أبا بكر وعمر وعثمان ، على ما بايعوهم عليه ، فلم يكن للشاهد أن يختار ولا للغائب أن يرد ، وإنما الشورى للمهاجرين والأنصار ، فإن اجتمعوا على رجل وسموه إماماً كان ذلك لله رضى فإن خرج منهم خارج بطعن أو بدعة ردوه إلى ماخرج منه فإن أبى قاتلوه على اتباعه غير سبيل المؤمنين ، وولاه الله ما تولى

Verily, the people who payed allegience to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman, have payed allegience to me based on the same principles as the allegience to them. So anyone who was present has no right to go against his pledge of allegience, and anyone who was absent has no right to oppose it. And verily shura (consultation) is only the right of the Muhajirs and the Ansar. So if they decide upon a man and declare him their Imam, then it is with the pleasure of Allah. If anyone goes against this decision, then he must be persuaded to follow the rest of the people. If he persists, then fight with him for leaving that which has been accepted by the believers. And Allah shall let him wander misguided and not guide him. (Nahjul-Balaghah, Letter #6).

So commanding people to pay allegiance to the Caliph appointed by a group of Muslims, doesn't mean that he was divinely appointed hence it is being commanded to pay him allegiance, rather this is the general ruling for the Islamic Khilafa.

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I also mentioned that when the Mahdi appears and is given the pledge of allegiance, there will already be Muslim rulers present. Now ordinarily, the Prophet commanded that obedience has to be given to the person who gets the pledge of allegiance from the Muslims first, and if a second person comes he is a rebel and is to be fought. But in the case of the Mahdi there is an agreed upon exception, hence it proves his Imamate is Mansoos.[/font][/size]
The hadeeth of Abu Dawud talks about the death of Khalipha. [We read: Dawud :: Book 36 : Hadith 4273 Narrated Umm Salamah, Ummul Mu'minin: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Disagreement will occur at the death of a caliph and a man of the people of Medina will come flying forth to Mecca.]

So you are wrong brother, to assume that their will be Caliph. The seat of Caliph would be empty, hence people would appoint Imam Mahdi over it. And he would be the rightful Caliph. But yes there could be Ameers(governors) over certain cities at that time, who would like to acknowledge this appointment of Caliph by people, but that doesn't mean they are also Caliph. This situation could be similar to the Caliphate of Ali(ra), when Muawiya(ra) was a governor and didn't want to give allegiance until his demands were met.

Hence again your theory of Khipha masoos min allah falls flat.

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The issue that needs to be discussed is whether or not the Prophet has instructed us to obey the Mahdi, a specific individual. If the answer is in the affirmative then it means he is an Imam that has a Nass, there is no Ikhtiyaar in the matter of his Imamate. You can see that our belief that the Prophet left in his will for us that when the Mahdi appears we take him as our leader, is similar to the Shi'ite belief that the Prophet left in his will that after him the Muslims take Ali كرم الله وجهه as their leader. So in principle we both accept the idea of a divinely appointed Imamate, but we differ over who those specific personalities are and when they appeared. It is not a difference over the theory, but a difference regarding the personalities.
Brother, you have made wrong and incorrect parameters to judge things, hence the result of anything you judge is going to be faulty.

Prophet(saws) even commanded Muslims to follow Sunnah of Rightly guided Caliphs after him, and in another hadeeth he said that, rightly guided Caliphate will remain for 30 years.

حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ حُجْرٍ، حَدَّثَنَا بَقِيَّةُ بْنُ الْوَلِيدِ، عَنْ بَحِيرِ بْنِ سَعْدٍ، عَنْ خَالِدِ بْنِ مَعْدَانَ، عَنْ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنِ عَمْرٍو السُّلَمِيِّ، عَنِ الْعِرْبَاضِ بْنِ سَارِيَةَ، قَالَ وَعَظَنَا رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَوْمًا بَعْدَ صَلاَةِ الْغَدَاةِ مَوْعِظَةً بَلِيغَةً ذَرَفَتْ مِنْهَا الْعُيُونُ وَوَجِلَتْ مِنْهَا الْقُلُوبُ فَقَالَ رَجُلٌ إِنَّ هَذِهِ مَوْعِظَةُ مُوَدِّعٍ فَمَاذَا تَعْهَدُ إِلَيْنَا يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ قَالَ ‏ "‏ أُوصِيكُمْ بِتَقْوَى اللَّهِ وَالسَّمْعِ وَالطَّاعَةِ وَإِنْ عَبْدٌ حَبَشِيٌّ فَإِنَّهُ مَنْ يَعِشْ مِنْكُمْ يَرَى اخْتِلاَفًا كَثِيرًا وَإِيَّاكُمْ وَمُحْدَثَاتِ الأُمُورِ فَإِنَّهَا ضَلاَلَةٌ فَمَنْ أَدْرَكَ ذَلِكَ مِنْكُمْ فَعَلَيْهِ بِسُنَّتِي وَسُنَّةِ الْخُلَفَاءِ الرَّاشِدِينَ الْمَهْدِيِّينَ عَضُّوا عَلَيْهَا بِالنَّوَاجِذِ ‏"
Narrated Al-‘Irbad bin Sariyah: “One day after the morning Salat, the Messenger of Allah (saw) exhorted us to the extent that the eyes wept and the hearts shuddered with fear. A man said: ‘Indeed this is a farewell exhortation. [So what] do you order us O Messenger of Allah?’ He said: ‘I order you to have Taqwa of Allah, and to listen and obey, even in the case of a Ethiopian slave. Indeed, whomever among you lives, he will see much difference. Beware of the newly invented matters, for indeed they are astray. Whoever among you sees that, then he must stick to my Sunnah and the Sunnah of the rightly guided Khulafa’, click to it with the molars.'”(Jami` at-Tirmidhi #2676; Grading: Sahih)

The hadeeth narrated by Safeenah (radiallaahu anhu), that the Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam) said:
خلافة النبوة ثلاثون سنة ثم يؤتي الله الملك من يشاء
The Prophetic khilaafah will last for thirty years. Then Allaah will give the dominion to whomever He wills. Reported by Abu Dawud and al-Haakim. Saheeh al-Jaami’ as-Sagheer (no. 3257) declared Saheeh by Imaam al-Albaani.

Also reported by Safeenah, the saying of the Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam):
الخلافة بعدي في أمتي ثلاثون سنة ثم ملك بعد ذلك
The khilaafah after me in my Ummah will last for thirty years. Then there will be kingship after that. Reported in the Musnad Imaam Ahmad, by at-Tirmidhi, Musnad Abi Ya’laa, and Ibn Hibbaan. Saheeh al-Jaami’ as-Sagheer (no. 3341) declared Saheeh by Imaam al-Albaani (rahimahullaah).


Now does it mean that the Caliphate of Abu bakr(ra), Umar(ra), Uthman(ra), Ali(ra) and Hassan(ra)[6 months], was divinely appointed by Allah, just because Prophet(saws) commanded to follow the rightly guided Caliphs?


No this is not correct, rather this is Qadr of Allah, as I explained before.

If you disagree then you need to believe that, after the  Prophetic Khilapha which was divinely appointed to Allah, then Allah gave it to whom ever he wanted and it was changed into Kingship, and this Kinship was also divinely appointed by Allah, which I believe you would disagree, realizing the erroneous parameters you set.

So brother know that what all I explained still remains strong. Also additional there is a report that Prophet(saws) commanded people to follow Abu Bakr and Umar after him. [Refer Jami at-Tirmidhi Book 49, Hadith 4023].

ADDITIONAL EVIDENCE THAT CALIPHATE OF IMAM MAHDI WILL BE SIMILAR TO THE INITIAL CALIPHATE
A part from the unrefuted evidence I presented about Caliphs after Prophet(saws being appointed by people, which included the Hadeeth that he was last prophet and there will be many caliphs after him....Here is another proof that Caliphate of Imam Mahdi will not be divinely appointed.

تكون النبوة فيكم ما شاء الله أن تكون ، ثم يرفعها الله – تعالى – ، ثم تكون خلافة على منهاج النبوة ما شاء الله أن تكون ، ثم يرفعها الله – تعالى – ، ثم تكون ملكا عاضا ، فتكون ما شاء الله أن تكون ، ثم يرفعها الله – تعالى – ، ثم تكون ملكا جبرية فيكون ما شاء الله أن يكون ، ثم يرفعها الله – تعالى – ، ثم تكون خلافة على منهاج نبوة . ثم سكت . . .
الراوي: النعمان بن بشير المحدث: الألباني – المصدر: تخريج مشكاة المصابيح – الصفحة أو الرقم: 5306
خلاصة حكم المحدث: إسناده حسن

Al-Nauman ibn Basheer told us: The Prophet PBUH said: ‘Prophethood will remain in you for as long as God decides for it to remain and then God will remove it when He decides to remove it. After Prophet hood, there will be a Caliphate on the style of prophethood and it will exist for as long as God decides for it to exist, then He will remove it when He decides to remove it. Then there will be a kingdom in which people will face trials and tribulations and it will continue to exist for as long as God decides for it to exist. Then He will remove it, when He decides to remove it. After this, there will be an oppressive kingdom and it will continue to exist for as long as God decides for it to exist. Then He will remove it, when He decides to remove it. Then there will once again be a Caliphate on the style of prophet hood. After saying this, the Prophet (pbuh) was silent.’
source: Takhreej Mishat al Masabih #5306.

From Hudhayfah that the Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam) said:

تكون النبوة فيكم ما شاء الله أن تكون ، ثم يرفعها الله إذا شاء أن يرفعها ، ثم تكون خلافة على منهاج النبوة ، فتكون ما شاء الله أن تكون ، ثم يرفعها الله إذا شاء أن يرفعها ، ثم تكون ملكا عاضا ، فيكون ما شاء الله أن تكون ، ثم يرفعها الله إذا شاء أن يرفعها ، ثم يكون ملكا جبريا ، فتكون ما شاء الله أن تكون ، ثم يرفعها إذا شاء أن يرفعها ، ثم تكون خلافة على منهاج النبوة ، ثم سكت

The Prophethood will remain amongst you for as long as Allaah wills it to be. Then Allaah will raise it when He wills to raise it. Then there will be the khilaafah upon the Prophetic methodology. And it will last for as long as Allaah wills it to last. Then Allaah will raise it when He wills to raise it. Then there will be biting kingship, and it will remain for as long as Allaah wills it to remain. Then Allaah will raise it when He wills to raise it. Then there will be tyrannical (forceful) kingship and it will remain for as long as Allaah wills it to remain. Then He will raise it when He wills to raise it. Then there will be a khilaafah upon the Prophetic methodology. Then he (the Prophet) was silent.Reported by Ahmad and Abu Dawud. Silsilah as-Saheehah of Imaam al-Albani (1/34 no. 5) and it is Saheeh.

It is known that the initial phase of Prophetic Khilapha was not divinely appointed, neither did these Caliphs claimed so, nor did the Sahaba. Now, eventually after the different changes in the mode of Rulership in the Ummah, the style of rulership will return to the style of Prophetic Khilapha again, and this is about the Caliphate of Imam Mahdi as well. Hence like the initial Prophetic Khilapha was not divinely appointed, the same would apply to later one which include Khilapha of Imam Mahdi, even that won't be divinely appointed.

ZulFiqar

Re: Sunni vs Shia debate on Imamah
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2017, 12:00:46 AM »
The hadeeth my friend you used was declared weak by the same scholar whose Takhreej you used for the narration of Abu Dawud. That is Zubair Ali Zaee, he weakened this hadeeth in his analysis of Sunan Ibn Majah.

He weakened it, but also said ولبعض الحديث شواهد
So there are parts of the Hadith which have Shawahid, that is not a complete weakening of the entire text of the Hadith. Yasir Qadhi mentioned something like this in his lecture on the Mahdi, saying that if you gather all the narrations about the Black Banners from the East they at least reach the level of being Hasan, and there has to be some truth in it.


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But to be fair, there were some scholars who authenticated this report, so I want to be good enough not to blame you of double standards.

Precisely.


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You have hurried in deducing a ruling from the report brother. When you compare both the ahadeeth we are discussing then you can see that they can easily be reconciled. The one from Ibn Majah is talking about the time when Imam Mahdi will be the Caliph leading an army carrying black flags, that time when Muslims see them they must pay allegiance to him.


فَإِذَا رَأَيْتُمُوهُ فَبَايِعُوهُ
So if you see that [black flags] then give your Bay'a to him [Mahdi]


This is instruction not merely Khabr. It formed the basis of my view that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم has given us a Nass for the Imamate of the Mahdi, as a specific individual. If we assume the Hadith you quoted earlier from Abu Dawud is sound, then I say the reason people will give their oath of allegiance to the Mahdi is because they want to follow this Amr from the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم recognising that the Mahdi has a Nass to be the Imam of the Muslims.

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But how he will become Caliph is mentioned in the Hadeeth of Abu Dawood, which shows people will appoint him as their leader by giving their allegiance against his will.


So if we assume that this Hadith is sound, and I am not entirely convinced of that, all it proves is that the Mahdi will not initially realise who he is. That doesn't take away from his Imamate being Mansoos. Remember, the fact that the Mahdi is divinely appointed we come to know of this through the Words of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم not from the Mahdi's own claim, since the words of the Mahdi are not in their essence revelatory or Shara'i (legislative).

Now you did not dispute the divine appointment of Talut (Saul) as King of Bani Israel. His divine appointment was announced through the agency of Prophet Samuel. It is said that when the Prophet gathered the tribes of Israel, because they were desiring a King to rule over them, he called for Talut to come forward, but the people couldn't find him. In fact, he was present in the assembly but hiding himself among the luggage, because initially he did not want to be King. Likewise, if this narration from Abu Dawud is sound, it shows the humility and piety of the Mahdi that he does not want to be the ruler, even though his Imamate is divinely mandated.


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As for the point that after Imam Mahdi is appointed as Caliph by people then others were commanded to pay allegiance to him, then this goes in line of Shariah. The best example is the Caliphate of Abu Bakr siddiq(ra), when he was appointed Caliph by a small group of people, that time the rest of Muslim Ummah where commanded to pay allegiance to him. Similar thing happened during Caliphate of Ali(Ra).

The Hadith doesn't say to give allegiance to the Mahdi after people have already given him allegiance by a small group of people. It says to give the Mahdi your allegiance when you see the black flags. I believe Yasir Qadhi has likewise stated that the Mahdi won't be among the army coming from Khurasan or the east with black flags. He will emerge in Mecca and people will give him their allegiance in the shade of the Ka'ba. In other words, the coming of the Black Flags is indicative of the appearance of the Mahdi. Once we see these black flags, we then search for and immediately give the Mahdi allegiance. That is what the entire Umma is commanded to do "even if you have to crawl over snow"

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The hadeeth of Abu Dawud talks about the death of Khalipha. [We read: Dawud :: Book 36 : Hadith 4273 Narrated Umm Salamah, Ummul Mu'minin: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Disagreement will occur at the death of a caliph and a man of the people of Medina will come flying forth to Mecca.]

So you are wrong brother, to assume that their will be Caliph. The seat of Caliph would be empty, hence people would appoint Imam Mahdi over it. And he would be the rightful Caliph. But yes there could be Ameers(governors) over certain cities at that time, who would like to acknowledge this appointment of Caliph by people, but that doesn't mean they are also Caliph.

It needs to be clarified whether this Caliph who will die is a Caliph whose caliphate is Khilafat 'alal-Minhaj Nubuwwah or he is merely a ruler that is called "Caliph" from a linguistic angle. The Hadith I quoted from Ibn Maja makes it clear that it is this Caliph that will die who will leave behind 3 sons who will all fight with each other, i.e. civil war situation. It's not unwise to assume each of these 3 sons is claiming to be the legitimate successor of this Caliph who has died. Then also keep in mind that an Army is sent to fight with the Mahdi who is at the Ka'ba after having acquired the Bay'a from the people, coming from the direction of the North, but will be destroyed and swallowed up by the Earth when they reach Baida. Obviously this Army is being sent by a Ruler whose rule has already been established.

Use wisdom and first observe the world you are living in today. There are multiple rulers and states that are firmly established in the world of Islam. Don't imagine that the Mahdi is going to appear in a vacuum. Even if in Arabia where he appears the caliph (ruler) has dead and his succession is disputed, remember, the entire Umma is being commanded to follow the Mahdi, not just those in Mecca. If you reflect on this reality you will come to realise that the Imamate of the Mahdi is divinely ordained and he is Mansoos Min Allah, because when he appears, the Umma's allegiances to the various rulers and states governing them is automatically nullified, and they are obliged to only obey a single Imam now that has been raised up by Allah. If that is not a divinely appointed Imamate I don't know what is.


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Prophet(saws) even commanded Muslims to follow Sunnah of Rightly guided Caliphs after him, and in another hadeeth he said that, rightly guided Caliphate will remain for 30 years.

Yes this is a command, but it is generic and not specific, because the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم did not name those specific individuals who will become the rightly guided Caliphs and command us to obey those specific individuals. Now if the Prophet said "Obey my rightly-guided Caliphs after me, first Abu Bakr, then after he dies, Umar, then Uthman, then Ali" that would be an explicit proof for these 4 Khulafa being divinely appointed. But the Umma wasn't told who these rightly guided caliphs will be, just that when they appear by the decree of Allah, we are instructed to obey and follow them. However, in the specific case of the Mahdi, we are being instructed to follow and obey a specific individual. We are even told his name, his lineage and his physical appearance. So your analogy with the Prophet's command to obey the Rightly-Guided Caliphs is deficient.

The rest of your argument in quoting those narrations about following the Successors of the Prophet are generic not specific. The Prophet is not naming who those specific individuals will be who succeed him, only that whoever they are, we ought to obey them. But the Mahdi is an exception because in that case he is telling us who exactly he will be as a specific individual and that we are commanded to obey him, so the Mahdi's Imamate is established by Nass.
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