TwelverShia.net Forum
Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Imamah-Ghaybah => Topic started by: Cherub786 on October 27, 2018, 05:22:12 AM
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I want to discuss with anyone who is interested the reality of the promised Mahdi, including an analysis of both the Sunni and Shiite versions. I say that the Sunni concept of Mahdi is not only much more believable and sensible, current events in the Middle East definitely setting the stage for his appearance in the Hijaz very soon. On the other hand, the Shiite version of the Mahdi is so fantastic and illogical that no sane person can ever conceive that such a figure would ever appear in this world.
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They say he is awaiting the right time. I wonder what plans he has and how differently he will behave compared to Imam Ali (ra) and Imam Hassan (ra) who did nothing the Shias today would have wanted them to do.
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I want to discuss with anyone who is interested the reality of the promised Mahdi, including an analysis of both the Sunni and Shiite versions. I say that the Sunni concept of Mahdi is not only much more believable and sensible, current events in the Middle East definitely setting the stage for his appearance in the Hijaz very soon. On the other hand, the Shiite version of the Mahdi is so fantastic and illogical that no sane person can ever conceive that such a figure would ever appear in this world.
"I say that the Sunni concept of Mahdi is not only much more believable and sensible, current events in the Middle East definitely setting the stage for his appearance in the Hijaz very soon"
Please do tell me about this Sunni concept.
"On the other hand, the Shiite version of the Mahdi is so fantastic and illogical that no sane person can ever conceive that such a figure would ever appear in this world"
Please do enlighten me with this version as well.
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They say he is awaiting the right time. I wonder what plans he has and how differently he will behave compared to Imam Ali (ra) and Imam Hassan (ra) who did nothing the Shias today would have wanted them to do.
You're all good with words based on counter arguments.
"compared to Imam Ali (ra) and Imam Hassan (ra) who did nothing the Shias today would have wanted them to do"
And what is it that the Shias of today wanted them to do?
It's just say and then run on to the next from you. No explanation of your own saying. You definitely sound like one bitter and twisted individual.
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Please do tell me about this Sunni concept.
In hadith for Sunnis are neither Mutawatir nor Sahih despite what some Sunni scholars said. At best the hadith are graded Hassan.
The Sunni Mahdi will not want to be Calipah. People will push him for it.
Sunni Mahdi will rule for 7 years minimum and 9 year maximum.
He will make peace agreement with Rum (possibly Russia).
He is not the last imam and his successor will be Al Qathani.
The hadith about Imam leading Prophet Isa (as) is not proven to be Mahdi. It can be another Imam.
He will be just ruler and will follow the Sunnah.
He will do ijtihad and bring his own school of thought.
This is the general Sunni concept.
Please do enlighten me with this version as well.
Here is the 12er Shia version.
He will abolish taqiyyah.
Bring the age of Rajah where all Imams and the Prophet (pbuh) will return.
Go to Abi Bakr, Umar and Ayesha's grave, resurrect them and punish them.
Prophet Isa (as) will mainly return to pray behind him, and supposedly prove imamate is superior.
He will get rid of the Sunni madhabs.
He will fight against the Zaydi Shia, and get rid of them.
In the Quran Prophet Suliamaan (as) prayed that there shall be no kingdom like his. However, the 12er Shia say there is an exception for the 12th Imam.
He will receive Wahi make judgement between people.
This trailer is a general idea how the Sunni see the 12er Shia version of the Mahdi.
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The hadith about Imam leading Prophet Isa (as) is not proven to be Mahdi. It can be another Imam.
I researched on this matter and found that there are some Hadith which make it explicit that the Amir and Imam behind whom the Messiah عليه السلام shall pray is indeed the expected Mahdi عليه الرضوان:
مِنَّا الذي يُصَلِّي عيسى ابنُ مريمَ خلفَهُ
"He is from us [Ahl al-Bayt] behind whom Jesus son of Mary will pray"
Albani graded it authentic (Silsila as-Sahiha #2293)
see my blog post for more details Forbidden_Link/2018/11/promised-mahdi-is-about-to-come-out-any.html
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"I say that the Sunni concept of Mahdi is not only much more believable and sensible, current events in the Middle East definitely setting the stage for his appearance in the Hijaz very soon"
Please do tell me about this Sunni concept.
"On the other hand, the Shiite version of the Mahdi is so fantastic and illogical that no sane person can ever conceive that such a figure would ever appear in this world"
Please do enlighten me with this version as well.
The key difference between our and your conception of the expected Mahdi عليه السلام والرضوان is that we of course do not assign any supernatural abilities to him. The Shi'a have mythologized the Mahdi. This is because their mullas have a vested interest in there never coming any Mahdi to challenge their false authority over the masses. Therefore, they have mythologized the Mahdi to such an extent that it is obvious such a fictional character will never come.
We believe the Mahdi will be a human being who will be guided by Allah and he will come out and lead the Muslims as their Imam. According to my research, the Mahdi won't have any supernatural abilities, but he will be helped by Allah in conquering the Middle East. I think he will conquer all of Arabia, the Levant, Jerusalem and Constantinople (Istanbul). He will not necessarily be ruling over the entire globe, but only the Middle East as a great military and religious leader.
His main purpose will be to establish a government of justice and fairness. He will emerge during a time of oppression and tyranny (which is our own time). He will straighten out the crooked Arabs with the sword. He will distribute wealth equitably among the people.
From among his description, he will of course be a Fatimi, direct descendant of the Prophet (sall Allahu alayhi wasallam). He will have the same name as the Prophet (sall Allahu alayhi wasallam) - Muhammad or Ahmad - and his father's name will be Abd Allah. He will have a broad forehead and beautiful, prominent aquiline nose. At some point in the future, this young man will leave Medina for Mecca, seeking refuge in the sacred precinct of Masjid al-Haram. People will recognize him and give him the bay'a between the Rukn and the Maqam.
The tyrannical and un-Islamic regimes of that time will be threatened by his emergence. They will send armies against him, but one of those armies will be destroyed by a natural disaster while on route to the Masjid al-Haram in order to confront or capture him. This is one of the major signs of him being the real Mahdi.
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He will make peace agreement with Rum (possibly Russia).
What is the basis for this, if I may ask?
He is not the last imam and his successor will be Al Qathani.
ditto?
He will do ijtihad and bring his own school of thought.
Again, where have you derived this idea from?
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Before I answer these questions I want to make it clear that the Mahdi is not a pillar of aqeeda like it is for the 12ers. The Muslims who don't believe in the Mahdi can still be momins.
What is the basis for this, if I may ask?
عن سليمان بن حبيب، قال: سمعت أبا أمامة رضي الله عنه، يقول: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم: سيكون بينكم وبين الروم أربع هدن، تقوم الرابعة على يد رجل من أهل هرقل، يدوم سبع سنين. فقال له رجل من عبد القيس يقال له المستورد بن خيلان: يا رسول الله! مَن إمام الناس يومئذ؟ قال: من وُلد أربعين سنة كأن وجهه كوكب دري في خده الأيمن، خال أسود، عليه عباءتان قعوايتان كأنه من رجال بني إسرائيل، يملك عشرين سنة، يستخرج الكنوز ويفتح مدائن الشرك.
“Sulaymān ibn Habīb says that he heard Abū Umāmah (RA) narrate: The Messenger of Allāh (صلی اللہ علیہ وآلہ وسلم) said: there will be peace between you and Rome four times and the fourth time the leader of the Romans will be a person belonging to the children of Heraclius. This ‘peace’ will last seven continuous years. A man from ‘Abd al-Qays, Mustawrid ibn Khaylān, asked the Messenger of Allāh (صلی اللہ علیہ وآلہ وسلم): who will be the Imām of the Muslims at that time? He (صلی اللہ علیہ وآلہ وسلم) replied: that person will be from (my) children and he will be forty years old. His face will be bright like a star and there will be a black beauty spot on his right cheek, and he will be dressed in two cotton gowns and it will seem as though he is exactly like one of the Children of Israel. He will rule for ten years, discover treasures from beneath the earth and conquer the cities ruled by the polytheists.”
(Tabarānī narrated it in al-Mu‘jam-ul-kabīr (8:101#7495), Musnad-ush-shāmiyyīn (2:410#1600); and Haythamī in Majma‘-uz-zawā’id (7:318,319).)
ditto?
Refer to the 40 hadith book on the Mahdi by Hafiz Abu Naeem Al Asbahny,
The 37th Hadith from the 40.
He will come after Tyrants
Qais Ibn Jābir narrates from his father, from his grandfather that the Messenger of Allah (peace and prayers be upon him and his family) said, “After me there will be caliphs, and [after the caliphs] emirs, and after the emirs [tyrant]4 kings. Then a man from my Household will rise who will fill the earth with justice after it will be beset with tyranny. Then, after him, the Qahtani will be made an Amir (Prince), and by Him Who sent me with the Truth, he (Qahtani) is not lesser (in terms of importance) than him (Mahdi)”
Here is the part of the series which covers this commentary.
&index=41
Again, where have you derived this idea from?
In the past Ahlul Bayt imams like Zayd bin Ali, Jafar bin Muhammad, Nafs-az-Zakiyah, Musa al Kazim etc followed their own school. They didn't follow any of the 4. In fact, the 4 Imams were their students.
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I researched on this matter and found that there are some Hadith which make it explicit that the Amir and Imam behind whom the Messiah عليه السلام shall pray is indeed the expected Mahdi عليه الرضوان:
مِنَّا الذي يُصَلِّي عيسى ابنُ مريمَ خلفَهُ
"He is from us [Ahl al-Bayt] behind whom Jesus son of Mary will pray"
Albani graded it authentic (Silsila as-Sahiha #2293)
see my blog post for more details Forbidden_Link/2018/11/promised-mahdi-is-about-to-come-out-any.html
Only the 12er Shia restrict Ahul bayt Imamate to the 12. This Ahlul bayt here does not have be the Mahdi. It can be another Fatimid.
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Only the 12er Shia restrict Ahul bayt Imamate to the 12. This Ahlul bayt here does not have be the Mahdi. It can be another Fatimid.
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(Al-Manar al-Munif p.148
Original Hadith is from Musnad of al-Harith b. Abi Usama
يَنْزِلُ عيسى ابنُ مَرْيَمَ فيقولُ أميرُهُمُ المهديُّ تَعالَ صلِّ بنا فيقولُ لا, إنَّ بعضَهُم أَميرُ بعضٍ تَكْرُمَةُ الله لهذه الأمَّةِ
Jesus son of Mary will descend, so their Amir, the Mahdi, will say, “Come, lead us in prayer”. But he will say, “No, verily some of them are commander over some. Allah’s honor for this Umma.”
Albani graded it authentic (Silsila al-Sahiha 2236)
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In the past Ahlul Bayt imams like Zayd bin Ali, Jafar bin Muhammad, Nafs-az-Zakiyah, Musa al Kazim etc followed their own school. They didn't follow any of the 4. In fact, the 4 Imams were their students.
With all due respect, but this a weak argument. And with the exception of Imam Jafar al-Sadiq, I don't know if any other of the great Imams you mentioned were mujtahidin and started their own schools. I know that the Zaydis attribute their jurisprudence to Imam Zayd. The point is you didn't cite any actual proof that the promised Mahdi will be a mujtahid and start his own madhhab.
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Before I answer these questions I want to make it clear that the Mahdi is not a pillar of aqeeda like it is for the 12ers. The Muslims who don't believe in the Mahdi can still be momins.
عن سليمان بن حبيب، قال: سمعت أبا أمامة رضي الله عنه، يقول: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم: سيكون بينكم وبين الروم أربع هدن، تقوم الرابعة على يد رجل من أهل هرقل، يدوم سبع سنين. فقال له رجل من عبد القيس يقال له المستورد بن خيلان: يا رسول الله! مَن إمام الناس يومئذ؟ قال: من وُلد أربعين سنة كأن وجهه كوكب دري في خده الأيمن، خال أسود، عليه عباءتان قعوايتان كأنه من رجال بني إسرائيل، يملك عشرين سنة، يستخرج الكنوز ويفتح مدائن الشرك.
“Sulaymān ibn Habīb says that he heard Abū Umāmah (RA) narrate: The Messenger of Allāh (صلی اللہ علیہ وآلہ وسلم) said: there will be peace between you and Rome four times and the fourth time the leader of the Romans will be a person belonging to the children of Heraclius. This ‘peace’ will last seven continuous years. A man from ‘Abd al-Qays, Mustawrid ibn Khaylān, asked the Messenger of Allāh (صلی اللہ علیہ وآلہ وسلم): who will be the Imām of the Muslims at that time? He (صلی اللہ علیہ وآلہ وسلم) replied: that person will be from (my) children and he will be forty years old. His face will be bright like a star and there will be a black beauty spot on his right cheek, and he will be dressed in two cotton gowns and it will seem as though he is exactly like one of the Children of Israel. He will rule for ten years, discover treasures from beneath the earth and conquer the cities ruled by the polytheists.”
(Tabarānī narrated it in al-Mu‘jam-ul-kabīr (8:101#7495), Musnad-ush-shāmiyyīn (2:410#1600); and Haythamī in Majma‘-uz-zawā’id (7:318,319).)
Refer to the 40 hadith book on the Mahdi by Hafiz Abu Naeem Al Asbahny,
The 37th Hadith from the 40.
He will come after Tyrants
Qais Ibn Jābir narrates from his father, from his grandfather that the Messenger of Allah (peace and prayers be upon him and his family) said, “After me there will be caliphs, and [after the caliphs] emirs, and after the emirs [tyrant]4 kings. Then a man from my Household will rise who will fill the earth with justice after it will be beset with tyranny. Then, after him, the Qahtani will be made an Amir (Prince), and by Him Who sent me with the Truth, he (Qahtani) is not lesser (in terms of importance) than him (Mahdi)”
Here is the part of the series which covers this commentary.
&index=41
In the past Ahlul Bayt imams like Zayd bin Ali, Jafar bin Muhammad, Nafs-az-Zakiyah, Musa al Kazim etc followed their own school. They didn't follow any of the 4. In fact, the 4 Imams were their students.
"Before I answer these questions I want to make it clear that the Mahdi is not a pillar of aqeeda like it is for the 12ers. The Muslims who don't believe in the Mahdi can still be momins"
What's the point about the whole concept of Mahdi then?
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This Ahlul bayt here does not have be the Mahdi. It can be another Fatimid.
Just to add, the title "Mahdi" is not always necessary to understand who the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم is referring to. A lot of the Hadith which are generally understood to be in reference to the Mahdi do not have the word "Mahdi", for example:
يَلِي رَجُلٌ مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِي يُوَاطِئُ اسْمُهُ اسْمِي
"A man is coming from my Ahl al-Bayt whose name matches my name"
لَوْ لَمْ يَبْقَ مِنَ الدَّهْرِ إِلاَّ يَوْمٌ لَبَعَثَ اللَّهُ رَجُلاً مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِي يَمْلأُهَا عَدْلاً كَمَا مُلِئَتْ جَوْرًا
"If nothing remained of time except a single day, Allah would raise up a man from my Ahl al-Bayt who will fill the land with fairness and justice as it was filled with oppression and tyranny"
Basically, whenever the Hadith speaks of a man coming in the future from the Ahl al-Bayt who will be an Imam, or whose name matches the Prophet's name, or who will fill the land with justice after it was full of oppression, it is speaking of the Mahdi.
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"يَلِي رَجُلٌ مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِي يُوَاطِئُ اسْمُهُ اسْمِي
"A man is coming from my Ahl al-Bayt whose name matches my name"
لَوْ لَمْ يَبْقَ مِنَ الدَّهْرِ إِلاَّ يَوْمٌ لَبَعَثَ اللَّهُ رَجُلاً مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِي يَمْلأُهَا عَدْلاً كَمَا مُلِئَتْ جَوْرًا
"If nothing remained of time except a single day, Allah would raise up a man from my Ahl al-Bayt who will fill the land with fairness and justice as it was filled with oppression and tyranny"
So one thing is clear then, he will be from the Ahle Baith.
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Refer to the 40 hadith book on the Mahdi by Hafiz Abu Naeem Al Asbahny,
That same text (Arbain of Abu Naeem) contains the 2 Hadith I already quoted which proves that the Messiah will pray behind the Mahdi. Refer to Hadith #38 and #39.
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What's the point about the whole concept of Mahdi then?
He is just a reformer who will guide the Muslims to the Quran and Sunnah. He is similar to Imam Zayd bin Ali, Nafs az Zakiyah since he will declare Caliphate. This is unlike Imam Jafar as Sadiq or Imam Ali Rida who did not respond to the calls for Caliphate.
In fact in the 12er Shia books Imam Baqer says Imam Muhammad al Hanifiyah is a Mahdi.
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Just to add, the title "Mahdi" is not always necessary to understand who the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم is referring to. A lot of the Hadith which are generally understood to be in reference to the Mahdi do not have the word "Mahdi", for example:
يَلِي رَجُلٌ مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِي يُوَاطِئُ اسْمُهُ اسْمِي
"A man is coming from my Ahl al-Bayt whose name matches my name"
لَوْ لَمْ يَبْقَ مِنَ الدَّهْرِ إِلاَّ يَوْمٌ لَبَعَثَ اللَّهُ رَجُلاً مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِي يَمْلأُهَا عَدْلاً كَمَا مُلِئَتْ جَوْرًا
"If nothing remained of time except a single day, Allah would raise up a man from my Ahl al-Bayt who will fill the land with fairness and justice as it was filled with oppression and tyranny"
Basically, whenever the Hadith speaks of a man coming in the future from the Ahl al-Bayt who will be an Imam, or whose name matches the Prophet's name, or who will fill the land with justice after it was full of oppression, it is speaking of the Mahdi.
Hadith does not say he is the only one coming from Ahlul Bayt. Most likely al Qathani after him and the Imams after will be from Ahlul Bayt as well.
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That same text (Arbain of Abu Naeem) contains the 2 Hadith I already quoted which proves that the Messiah will pray behind the Mahdi. Refer to Hadith #38 and #39.
Some versions add Mahdi some do not. 38 does not but 39 does. There is commentary by the a Hanafi scholar who say Mahdi will not live in the era of Dajjal. Recall hadith says he will rule for 7 years and a max of 9.
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"يَلِي رَجُلٌ مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِي يُوَاطِئُ اسْمُهُ اسْمِي
"A man is coming from my Ahl al-Bayt whose name matches my name"
لَوْ لَمْ يَبْقَ مِنَ الدَّهْرِ إِلاَّ يَوْمٌ لَبَعَثَ اللَّهُ رَجُلاً مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِي يَمْلأُهَا عَدْلاً كَمَا مُلِئَتْ جَوْرًا
"If nothing remained of time except a single day, Allah would raise up a man from my Ahl al-Bayt who will fill the land with fairness and justice as it was filled with oppression and tyranny"
So one thing is clear then, he will be from the Ahle Baith.
I dont agree with the second hadith. How can one man full the entire earth with justice and fairness? Its beyond human capacity. Sunni books contain exaggerations too.
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I dont agree with the second hadith. How can one man full the entire earth with justice and fairness? Its beyond human capacity. Sunni books contain exaggerations too.
Ardh الأرض does not always mean the entire planet, it simply means land, and in this case, the land of the Middle East. Other Hadith say that the Imam al-Mahdi عليه الرضوان will rule over the Arabs:
لَا تَنْقَضِي الدُّنْيَا حَتَّى يَمْلِكَ الْعَرَبَ رَجُلٌ مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِي ، وَيُوَاطِئُ اسْمُهُ اسْمِي
“The world will not pass away until the Arabs are ruled by a man of my household, whose name matches my name.” (Sunan Abi Dawud, Musnad Ahmad)
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Hadith does not say he is the only one coming from Ahlul Bayt. Most likely al Qathani after him and the Imams after will be from Ahlul Bayt as well.
Where did you get the idea that the Qahtani will be from the Ahl al-Bayt?
Ahl al-Bayt are necessarily from Bani Hashim, as the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم was a Hashimi and descendant of Adnan.
Qahtan are a totally different branch of Arabs, they are not Ahl al-Bayt.
There is also indication from the Hadith that this coming Qahtani isn't a good guy:
لاَ تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ حَتَّى يَخْرُجَ رَجُلٌ مِنْ قَحْطَانَ يَسُوقُ النَّاسَ بِعَصَاهُ
"The Hour will not be established unless a man from the tribe of Qahtan appears, driving the people with his stick" (Bukhari)
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Ardh الأرض does not always mean the entire planet, it simply means land, and in this case, the land of the Middle East. Other Hadith say that the Imam al-Mahdi عليه الرضوان will rule over the Arabs:
لَا تَنْقَضِي الدُّنْيَا حَتَّى يَمْلِكَ الْعَرَبَ رَجُلٌ مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِي ، وَيُوَاطِئُ اسْمُهُ اسْمِي
“The world will not pass away until the Arabs are ruled by a man of my household, whose name matches my name.” (Sunan Abi Dawud, Musnad Ahmad)
The hadith includes the entire world.
The arab ruling is correct.
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Where did you get the idea that the Qahtani will be from the Ahl al-Bayt?
Ahl al-Bayt are necessarily from Bani Hashim, as the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم was a Hashimi and descendant of Adnan.
Qahtan are a totally different branch of Arabs, they are not Ahl al-Bayt.
There is also indication from the Hadith that this coming Qahtani isn't a good guy:
لاَ تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ حَتَّى يَخْرُجَ رَجُلٌ مِنْ قَحْطَانَ يَسُوقُ النَّاسَ بِعَصَاهُ
"The Hour will not be established unless a man from the tribe of Qahtan appears, driving the people with his stick" (Bukhari)
Qathani here is a title. In hadith 37 it says he is as good as the Mahdi.
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There is commentary by the a Hanafi scholar who say Mahdi will not live in the era of Dajjal.
What is the basis for such an idea?
I think there is an indication that the Dajjal shall emerge while the Mahdi is the leader of the Muslims. According to some Hadith, it is under the leadership of the Mahdi that the Muslims will retake Constantinople (Istanbul):
لَوْ لَمْ يَبْقَ مِنَ الدُّنْيَا إِلاَّ يَوْمٌ لَطَوَّلَهُ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ حَتَّى يَمْلِكَ رَجُلٌ مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِي يَمْلِكُ جَبَلَ الدَّيْلَمِ وَالْقُسْطَنْطِينِيَّةَ
"Even if there was only one day left of this world, Allah would make it last until a man from my household took possession of (the mountain of) Dailam and Constantinople" (Sunan Ibn Maja 2779)
لَتُفْتَحَنَّ الْقُسْطَنْطِينِيَّةُ ، فَلَنِعْمَ الْأَمِيرُ أَمِيرُهَا ، وَلَنِعْمَ الْجَيْشُ ذَلِكَ الْجَيْشُ
"Verily you shall conquer Constantinople. What a wonderful leader will her leader be, and what a wonderful army will that army be!" (Musnad Ahmad)
It is generally accepted that this Hadith is referring to the Ottoman Turks and Sultan Mehmed II (Fatih Sultan Mehmed). However, I believe that is a mistake, this Hadith is another prophecy about the Mahdi.
Why? Because most of the Hadith talk about the conquest of Constantinople occurring during the same time as the emergence of the Dajjal:
وَفَتْحُ الْقُسْطَنْطِينِيَّةِ خُرُوجُ الدَّجَّالِ
(Sunan Abi Dawud 4294)
According to a Hadith in Sahih Muslim, a third of the Muslim army that survives the Malhama will go on to conquer Constantinople, and then the Dajjal will finally emerge.
You can see the pieces of the puzzle coming together to reveal the fact that the Mahdi emerges, then there is a Malhama, then the Muslims are victorious and go on to conquer Constantinople, then the Dajjal emerges, and then the Messiah son of Maryam comes down to Damascus and Jerusalem. Allah knows best, but this sequence of events makes the most sense to me.
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Qathani here is a title. In hadith 37 it says he is as good as the Mahdi.
Qahtani is a title and nisbah and it means the one of Qahtan. The Hadith in Bukhari is explicit in calling him a man from the Qahtan. You haven't presented any argument that the Qahtani is from Ahl al-Bayt. I don't think any scholar holds such a view.
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Qahtani is a title and nisbah and it means the one of Qahtan. The Hadith in Bukhari is explicit in calling him a man from the Qahtan. You haven't presented any argument that the Qahtani is from Ahl al-Bayt. I don't think any scholar holds such a view.
Thanks for the correction.
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The time period between the conquest and the appearance of Dajjal is unknown. While the rule of Mahdi will not exceed 9 years.
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The time period between the conquest and the appearance of Dajjal is unknown. While the rule of Mahdi will not exceed 9 years.
According to the Hadith of Muadh bin Jabal رضى الله عنه which is slightly weak, the Malhama, conquest of Constantinople and emergence of Dajjal will all occur in a timespan of 7 months:
الْمَلْحَمَةُ الْكُبْرَى وَفَتْحُ الْقُسْطَنْطِينِيَّةِ وَخُرُوجُ الدَّجَّالِ فِي سَبْعَةِ أَشْهُرٍ
(Sunan Abi Dawud #4295)
And in another narration from Muadh bin Jabal which is sound:
وَفَتْحُ الْقُسْطَنْطِينِيَّةِ خُرُوجُ الدَّجَّالِ
"The conquest of Constantinople is when the Dajjal comes out" (Sunan Abi Dawud #4294)
Another Hadith from Abi Huraira رضى الله عنه states that after the Muslims have conquered Constantinople, the devil will cry out that the Dajjal has taken his place among their families. When that army that conquered Constantinople come back to Sham preparing for battle (perhaps against the Zionist state), then the Dajjal will finally emerge (Sahih Muslim):
وَيَفْتَتِحُ الثُّلُثُ لاَ يُفْتَنُونَ أَبَدًا فَيَفْتَتِحُونَ قُسْطُنْطِينِيَّةَ فَبَيْنَمَا هُمْ يَقْتَسِمُونَ الْغَنَائِمَ قَدْ عَلَّقُوا سُيُوفَهُمْ بِالزَّيْتُونِ إِذْ صَاحَ فِيهِمُ الشَّيْطَانُ إِنَّ الْمَسِيحَ قَدْ خَلَفَكُمْ فِي أَهْلِيكُمْ . فَيَخْرُجُونَ وَذَلِكَ بَاطِلٌ فَإِذَا جَاءُوا الشَّأْمَ خَرَجَ فَبَيْنَمَا هُمْ يُعِدُّونَ لِلْقِتَالِ يُسَوُّونَ الصُّفُوفَ
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One of the particularities of the promised Mahdi عليه السلام is the fact that he is directly and divinely appointed by Allah, and therefore has the divine right to rule the Umma. Unlike the ordinary caliphs and rulers, the Umma doesn't have the right to appoint someone to the office of Mahdi through Shura (consultation) or any other means. The Mahdi is sent directly by Allah. When he comes, our duty is only to recognize him and pledge allegiance to him. In this, the office of Mahdi resembles that of the office of Nubuwwa and the office of the Mujaddid which are likewise divinely appointed offices. So the promised Mahdi is مبعوث من الله and منصوص من الله
Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم said:
لَوْ لَمْ يَبْقَ مِنَ الدَّهْرِ إِلاَّ يَوْمٌ لَبَعَثَ اللَّهُ رَجُلاً مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِي يَمْلأُهَا عَدْلاً كَمَا مُلِئَتْ جَوْرًا
’’If there was nothing left of time except a day, Allah would raise a man from my household who would fill (the land) with justice as it was filled with tyranny.’’ (Sunan Abi Dawud #4283)
Now the Imamiya Shi'a say there are 12 divinely appointed Imams after Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم, but according to us, there is only 1 divinely appointed Imam from the Umma, and that is the promised Mahdi عليه السلام
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According to the Hadith of Muadh bin Jabal رضى الله عنه which is slightly weak, the Malhama, conquest of Constantinople and emergence of Dajjal will all occur in a timespan of 7 months:
الْمَلْحَمَةُ الْكُبْرَى وَفَتْحُ الْقُسْطَنْطِينِيَّةِ وَخُرُوجُ الدَّجَّالِ فِي سَبْعَةِ أَشْهُرٍ
(Sunan Abi Dawud #4295)
And in another narration from Muadh bin Jabal which is sound:
وَفَتْحُ الْقُسْطَنْطِينِيَّةِ خُرُوجُ الدَّجَّالِ
"The conquest of Constantinople is when the Dajjal comes out" (Sunan Abi Dawud #4294)
Another Hadith from Abi Huraira رضى الله عنه states that after the Muslims have conquered Constantinople, the devil will cry out that the Dajjal has taken his place among their families. When that army that conquered Constantinople come back to Sham preparing for battle (perhaps against the Zionist state), then the Dajjal will finally emerge (Sahih Muslim):
وَيَفْتَتِحُ الثُّلُثُ لاَ يُفْتَنُونَ أَبَدًا فَيَفْتَتِحُونَ قُسْطُنْطِينِيَّةَ فَبَيْنَمَا هُمْ يَقْتَسِمُونَ الْغَنَائِمَ قَدْ عَلَّقُوا سُيُوفَهُمْ بِالزَّيْتُونِ إِذْ صَاحَ فِيهِمُ الشَّيْطَانُ إِنَّ الْمَسِيحَ قَدْ خَلَفَكُمْ فِي أَهْلِيكُمْ . فَيَخْرُجُونَ وَذَلِكَ بَاطِلٌ فَإِذَا جَاءُوا الشَّأْمَ خَرَجَ فَبَيْنَمَا هُمْ يُعِدُّونَ لِلْقِتَالِ يُسَوُّونَ الصُّفُوفَ
Ok I got that. But here is what I don't understand. So, we have al Mahdi who will rule for 7 years and according those two hadith Muslims will enjoy a standard of living unlike any before. Yet we have all these wars.
The 29th Hadith
The Leisure of the Ummah during the Reign of Al Mahdi
Abu Sa„īd al-Khidri narrates that the Messenger of Allah (peace and prayers be upon him and his family) said, “The Mahdi will be in my Ummah, if short for seven years, otherwise eight, or otherwise nine. My Ummah will enjoy leisure in the time of Al Mahdi the like of which they have never enjoyed. The heavens will shower over them bountifully and the earth will not leave3 any vegetation but to bring it forth”4.
Hadith 1
Al Mahdi’s Reign and the Ummah’s bliss in his time
Narrated Abu Sa„īd al-Khidri: The Prophet (peace and prayers be upon him and his family) said: “Al Mahdi will be of my Ummah, He will rule seven years, otherwise eight, or otherwise nine. My Ummah will enjoy blessings in his time they have never had before, both the veracious and the dissipated, God will send them rain that pour from heavens in abundance and the earth will bring forth all that grows”1.
Then we have other hadith which talk about the wars you mentioned plus others.
Book 41, Number 6930:
Nafi' b. Utba reported: We were with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) in an expedition that there came a people to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) from the direction of the west. They were dressed in woollen clothes and they stood near a hillock and they met him as Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) was sitting. I said to myself: Better go to them and stand between him and them that they may not attack him. Then I thought that perhaps there had been going on secret negotiation amongst them. I however, went to them and btood between them and him and I remember four of the words (on that occasion) which I repeat (on the fingers of my hand) that he (Allah's Messenger) said: You will attack Arabia and Allah will enable you to conquer it, then you would attack Persia and He would make you to Conquer it. Then you would attack Rome and AllgLh will enable you to conquer it, then you would attack the Dajjal and Allah will enable you to conquer him. Nafi' said: Jabir, we thought that the Dajjal would appear after Rome (Syrian territory) would be conquered.
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Now the Imamiya Shi'a say there are 12 divinely appointed Imams after Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم, but according to us, there is only 1 divinely appointed Imam from the Umma, and that is the promised Mahdi عليه السلام[/size]
I disagree with that belief. Al Mahdi is not divinely appointed. The hadith which say so are exaggerated and false. We have contrary hadith where people and not some voice will tell the Mahdi to be Calipah. Then the Mahdi will run from that responsibility. He will again be pushed and then after through bayah he will become a Calipah.
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I disagree with that belief. Al Mahdi is not divinely appointed. The hadith which say so are exaggerated and false. We have contrary hadith where people and not some voice will tell the Mahdi to be Calipah. Then the Mahdi will run from that responsibility. He will again be pushed and then after through bayah he will become a Calipah.
Incidentally, I didn't quote the Hadith about the "Voice" declaring the Mahdi is the Caliph of Allah, knowing full well its authenticity is suspect. But I did quote another Hadith which says Allah will بعث "raise" or "send" the Mahdi. The same word has been used for Prophets and Mujaddidin to indicate that they are appointed to their office by Allah and not the public:
فَبَعَثَ اللَّـهُ النَّبِيِّينَ
"Allah sent the Prophets" (Sura 2:213)
Sayyidina Talut عليه السلام was one of the kings whom Allah directly appointed through the agency of Prophet Samuel:
وَقَالَ لَهُمْ نَبِيُّهُمْ إِنَّ اللَّـهَ قَدْ بَعَثَ لَكُمْ طَالُوتَ مَلِكًا
Said to them their Prophet: "Verily, Allah has raised for you Talut as King" (Sura 2:247)
Regarding the Mujaddid being divinely appointed by Allah:
إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَبْعَثُ لِهَذِهِ الأُمَّةِ عَلَى رَأْسِ كُلِّ مِائَةِ سَنَةٍ مَنْ يُجَدِّدُ لَهَا دِينَهَا
"Verily, Allah will raise up for this Umma upon the head of every century one who will renew for it its Religion" (Sunan Abi Dawud #4291)
Now the same verb بَعَثَ has been used, with Allah as the فاعل in the case of the promised Mahdi.
As for your argument that the people themselves will coerce the Mahdi to accept the pledge of allegiance and that the Mahdi will "run from that responsibility" you are basing it on the Hadith:
فَيَأْتِيهِ نَاسٌ مِنْ أَهْلِ مَكَّةَ فَيُخْرِجُونَهُ وَهُوَ كَارِهٌ فَيُبَايِعُونَهُ بَيْنَ الرُّكْنِ وَالْمَقَامِ
"The people of Mecca will come to him and take him out while he is in a state of duress and pledge allegiance to him between the Rukn and the Maqam"
The words Huwa Kaarihun do not necessarily mean "he will run from that responsibility", it only means he is being forced to accept the bay'a without first asking his consent.
Logically, a person can be compelled to do something without first being asked to consent, and that does not necessarily mean that he is against it.
Nor is it an argument that the Mahdi is appointed by the public and not Allah. Actually it means that the people will recognize the Mahdi and see that he bears the foretold signs within him, so give him the bay'a without asking him to consent to it, because it is a matter divinely ordained by Allah.
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Ok I got that. But here is what I don't understand. So, we have al Mahdi who will rule for 7 years and according those two hadith Muslims will enjoy a standard of living unlike any before. Yet we have all these wars.
It makes perfect sense if you think about it. In the time of the Mahdi there will be abundant wealth and every Muslim who goes to the Mahdi will get his share plus more than he can carry. But where will all that wealth come from? It will come from the spoils of war, because the Mahdi will wage massive wars against powerful nations. War is actually a means of becoming rich. After World War II the United States was victorious and was at the height of its economic and military power. That's why Americans are nostalgic about the late 40s and 50s.
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Incidentally, I didn't quote the Hadith about the "Voice" declaring the Mahdi is the Caliph of Allah, knowing full well its authenticity is suspect.
That's the problem with these Mahdi hadith. They are very difficult to authenticate. As for Allah's Calipah that is not possible. Allah cannot have a Calipah. The Calipahs are representative of earth not Allah. There is a problem with the wording.
Sayyidina Talut عليه السلام was one of the kings whom Allah directly appointed through the agency of Prophet Samuel:
وَقَالَ لَهُمْ نَبِيُّهُمْ إِنَّ اللَّـهَ قَدْ بَعَثَ لَكُمْ طَالُوتَ مَلِكًا
Said to them their Prophet: "Verily, Allah has raised for you Talut as King" (Sura 2:247)
You see it says for you. It doesn't say he is Allah's calipah.
Regarding the Mujaddid being divinely appointed by Allah:
إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَبْعَثُ لِهَذِهِ الأُمَّةِ عَلَى رَأْسِ كُلِّ مِائَةِ سَنَةٍ مَنْ يُجَدِّدُ لَهَا دِينَهَا
"Verily, Allah will raise up for this Umma upon the head of every century one who will renew for it its Religion" (Sunan Abi Dawud #4291)
Yes, but they are not divinely appointed.
As for your argument that the people themselves will coerce the Mahdi to accept the pledge of allegiance and that the Mahdi will "run from that responsibility" you are basing it on the Hadith:
فَيَأْتِيهِ نَاسٌ مِنْ أَهْلِ مَكَّةَ فَيُخْرِجُونَهُ وَهُوَ كَارِهٌ فَيُبَايِعُونَهُ بَيْنَ الرُّكْنِ وَالْمَقَامِ
"The people of Mecca will come to him and take him out while he is in a state of duress and pledge allegiance to him between the Rukn and the Maqam"
Its similar to what happened during Imam Ali's (as) time.
When people decided to Swear allegiance[1] at Amir al-mu'minin's hand after the murder of `Uthman, he said:
Leave me and seek some one else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you I would lead you as I know and would not care about whatever one may say or abuse. If you leave me then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief.
(Najh al Balagha, Sermon 92)
Nor is it an argument that the Mahdi is appointed by the public and not Allah. Actually it means that the people will recognize the Mahdi and see that he bears the foretold signs within him, so give him the bay'a without asking him to consent to it, because it is a matter divinely ordained by Allah.
Show me an example where the term Allah's Calipah is used in history or in the Quran. Allah cannot have a representative. The hadith is made up by an extremist.
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It makes perfect sense if you think about it. In the time of the Mahdi there will be abundant wealth and every Muslim who goes to the Mahdi will get his share plus more than he can carry. But where will all that wealth come from? It will come from the spoils of war, because the Mahdi will wage massive wars against powerful nations. War is actually a means of becoming rich. After World War II the United States was victorious and was at the height of its economic and military power. That's why Americans are nostalgic about the late 40s and 50s.
You also need to realize that US joined the war near its end. All the fighting was done by Europe against Germany. After Germany got exhausted from taking over Europe and loosing to Russia, that's when US jumped in with a fresh army. Did they go and fight Japan? Nope.
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That's the problem with these Mahdi hadith. They are very difficult to authenticate. As for Allah's Calipah that is not possible. Allah cannot have a Calipah. The Calipahs are representative of earth not Allah.
That doesn't make sense. How does the Earth have a representative?
Adam is the Caliph of Allah, meaning the Viceroy of God. Man was created to represent Allah on Earth. That is the whole concept and idea of Khilafa, that man represents Allah on Earth.
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That doesn't make sense. How does the Earth have a representative?
Adam is the Caliph of Allah, meaning the Viceroy of God. Man was created to represent Allah on Earth. That is the whole concept and idea of Khilafa, that man represents Allah on Earth.
Show me examples from the Quran where the term Allah's Calipah is used. Its not possible to be Allah's Calipah.
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In our mosques we are always presented with the history of the Khulufa Rashid is a very romantic way. Likewise, the same case applies for the end of times. We are always presented with a very romantic story of the Mahdi. With this in mind, what the 12er Shia do is find the faults of the early rulers, and then they tell how Islam would have had a romantic past if Ali was the first calipah. Likewise, with the Mahdi they went a step ahead of what is presented in the Sunni books. Since, the 12er Shia faced a continuous history of persecution these stories at times relieved them of stress and frustration they were going too. I am glad you mentioned world war 2. What I want to do is present a clip which shows the reality of how many causalities the 2nd world war caused.
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Show me examples from the Quran where the term Allah's Calipah is used. Its not possible to be Allah's Calipah.
If you don't mind me counter questioning: why is it not possible to be "Allah's Caliph".
Prophets Adam and David are traditionally referred to as Khalifatullah by Muslims.
In my view, the promised Mahdi is also Khalifatullah, he will be Allah's representative on Earth.
You earlier wrote that the Quran speaks of Khalifa of the Earth and not Khalifa of Allah.
But what is a "Khalifa of the Earth"? That doesn't make sense.
The Quran never says "Khalifa of the Earth", it says "Khalifa IN the Earth".
Meaning someone who has been made Khalifa by Allah to represent Allah in the Earth.
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I am glad you mentioned world war 2. What I want to do is present a clip which shows the reality of how many causalities the 2nd world war caused.
How is that relevant? I only mentioned World War 2 to give an example of how the victorious party can sometimes benefit economically from war, and it is my expectation that likewise the coming wars of the Imam al-Mahdi will enrich the Muslims.
Btw I did see the YouTube video and it is very shocking how many soldiers and civilians died in WW2, especially on the Soviet side. But if the threat of nuclear war ever becomes real, then that "World War 3" will make WW2 look like a walk in the park by comparison.
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If you don't mind me counter questioning: why is it not possible to be "Allah's Caliph".
Prophets Adam and David are traditionally referred to as Khalifatullah by Muslims.
In my view, the promised Mahdi is also Khalifatullah, he will be Allah's representative on Earth.
Muslims views need to be backed by the Quran or authentic hadith.
Prophets represent Allah's message. They were not representing Allah himself. The attributes of Allah cannot be represented by anyone. However, his message can.
In this verse we don't see the term Khalifatullah.
And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know." (Quran 2:30)
You earlier wrote that the Quran speaks of Khalifa of the Earth and not Khalifa of Allah.
But what is a "Khalifa of the Earth"? That doesn't make sense.
I said it wrong it. It says ..I will make upon the earth a successive authority."
The Quran never says "Khalifa of the Earth", it says "Khalifa IN the Earth".
Meaning someone who has been made Khalifa by Allah to represent Allah in the Earth.
Yes, but again Calipah of Allah is not used. So the narrator added something in the narration that does not exist or has any backing.
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Muslims views need to be backed by the Quran or authentic hadith.
Prophets represent Allah's message. They were not representing Allah himself. The attributes of Allah cannot be represented by anyone. However, his message can.
Allah's message is based on His will. So a Prophet represents the will of Allah, that being one of His attributes (Irada and Rida).
A Prophet is basically the instrument through which Allah speaks and discloses His will and instructions for the people. So how is a Prophet not directly representing Allah?
Insofar as having the ability and authority to execute Allah's will, a Prophet or non-Prophet becomes the Khalifa of Allah.
Like how the British viceroy in India had the ability and authority to execute the will of the British crown and government in that country. Its the exact same concept. The Khalifa is the Viceroy of Allah on Earth.
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Allah's message is based on His will. So a Prophet represents the will of Allah, that being one of His attributes (Irada and Rida).
A Prophet is basically the instrument through which Allah speaks and discloses His will and instructions for the people. So how is a Prophet not directly representing Allah?
Insofar as having the ability and authority to execute Allah's will, a Prophet or non-Prophet becomes the Khalifa of Allah.
Like how the British viceroy in India had the ability and authority to execute the will of the British crown and government in that country. Its the exact same concept. The Khalifa is the Viceroy of Allah on Earth.
Prophets receive Wahi and thats what they represent. What makes a non Prophet a Calipah of Allah and his will? Nothing. There is no such thing as Allah's representative.
For example there are verses in the Quran where it says there are monafiqeen among you, you dont know who they are. So in reality Prophethood is dependant on the wahi and they are representative of Allah's message not Allah himself. They are presenting the divine message. There are times when questions were asked and the Prophet (pbuh) had to wait for an answer. However you are telling me a Calipah of Allah will always give answers that presents Allah's will?
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Prophets receive Wahi and thats what they represent. What makes a non Prophet a Calipah of Allah and his will? Nothing. There is no such thing as Allah's representative.
For example there are verses in the Quran where it says there are monafiqeen among you, you dont know who they are. So in reality Prophethood is dependant on the wahi and they are representative of Allah's message not Allah himself. They are presenting the divine message. There are times when questions were asked and the Prophet (pbuh) had to wait for an answer. However you are telling me a Calipah of Allah will always give answers that presents Allah's will?
No, that's a good point, but I'm saying whatever answer or action a Prophet does, in the capacity of being a Prophet, is representing and executing the will of Allah.
As far as Khilafat fil Ard, I do not say that every Prophet was a Caliph of Allah, but only those prophets and non-prophets who were given authority in the land and used their authority to execute the will of Allah. This is why the Quran refers to David as Caliph but not Elias or Elisha.
Anyways, I think we can agree to disagree on this point, perhaps it's just an issue of semantics
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No, that's a good point, but I'm saying whatever answer or action a Prophet does, in the capacity of being a Prophet, is representing and executing the will of Allah.
As far as Khilafat fil Ard, I do not say that every Prophet was a Caliph of Allah, but only those prophets and non-prophets who were given authority in the land and used their authority to execute the will of Allah. This is why the Quran refers to David as Caliph but not Elias or Elisha.
Anyways, I think we can agree to disagree on this point, perhaps it's just an issue of semantics
Look how the 12ers interpreted Calipah of Allah. The 12er goes as far as saying the Mahdi will get direct wahi than the Prophet (pbuh) himself.
Refer to the 27:29 min mark
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Look how the 12ers interpreted Calipah of Allah. The 12er goes as far as saying the Mahdi will get direct wahi than the Prophet (pbuh) himself.
Indeed, the Shia might as well say the Mahdi will be a Prophet. The only reason they avoid describing their Imams as Prophets is because that would be a manifest violation of the Quranic Verse (33:40), otherwise their Imams have all the essence and characteristics of Nubuwwah.
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Indeed, the Shia might as well say the Mahdi will be a Prophet. The only reason they avoid describing their Imams as Prophets is because that would be a manifest violation of the Quranic Verse (33:40), otherwise their Imams have all the essence and characteristics of Nubuwwah.
Actually 12er Shia are saying Imamate is higher than Prophethood and Messengers. A Prophet has to wait for Wahi. Whereas an Imam does not and makes ijitihad which is equal to wahi or the Quran. This is their belief.
For example the Quran says the Prophet (pbuh) did not know who the monafiqeen are. It was then given through revelation on who they are. On the contrary the Imams can let you know if you are going to jannah, tell you if you are a momin or among the monafiqeen.
In Surah Yusuf it says that the Prophet (pbuh) did not know the story of Yusuf (as). Yet for an Imam they access to Ilm al Jafr a book which lets them know the entire bible and the knowledge of all the Bani Israelis Prophet combined.
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For example the Quran says the Prophet (pbuh) did not know who the monafiqeen are. It was then given through revelation on who they are. On the contrary the Imams can let you know if you are going to jannah, tell you if you are a momin or among the monafiqeen.
Do you mean to say that the Shia believe the 12 Imams have knowledge of the unseen in their essence (i.e. that each Imam is عالم الغيب بذاته) - the Imam is a knower of the unseen by his own essence?
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Do you mean to say that the Shia believe the 12 Imams have knowledge of the unseen in their essence (i.e. that each Imam is عالم الغيب بذاته) - the Imam is a knower of the unseen by his own essence?
Here is a narration which provides the explanation.
Allamah al-Majlisi records:
إكمال الدين: بهذا الاسناد، عن أبان بن تغلب قال: قال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام:سيأتي في مسجدكم ثلاثمائة وثلاثة عشر رجلا - يعني مسجد مكة - يعلم أهل مكة أنه لم يلدهم آباؤهم ولا أجدادهم، عليهم السيوف، مكتوب على كل سيف كلمة تفتح ألف كلمة، فيبعث الله تبارك وتعالى ريحا فتنادي بكل واد: هذا المهدي يقضي بقضاء داود وسليمان عليهما السلام لا يريد عليه بينة.
Ikmal al-Din: Through this chain, from Aban b. Taghlib:
Abu ‘Abd Allah, peace be upon him, said: “There will be in your mosque, that is the mosque of Kufa, 313 men. The people of Makkah will know that they (i.e. the 313 men) are not descended from their (i.e. the Makkans’) fathers and ancestors. They (i.e. the 313 men) will have swords; on each sword will be inscribed a statement which will open one thousand (other) statements. Then, Allah the Most Blessed and the Most High will send a wind which will call in every valley: ‘This is the Mahdi.’ He will judge with the judgment of Dawud and Sulayman, peace be upon them both: he will not demand for evidence on it.”
Here is the commentary of the hadith.
Apart from prophets, messengers, and some other righteous people, our Creator also sends wahy to Imams:
وجعلناهم أئمة يهدون بأمرنا وأوحينا إليهم فعل الخيرات وإقام الصلاة وإيتاء الزكاة وكانوا لنا عابدين
And We appointed them Imams, guiding by Our Command, and We sent wahy to them to do good deeds, and to keep up al-salat, and to pay al-zakat. And, they were worshippers of Us.43
It is indeed notable that the receipt of the wahy has been explicitly linked with their office of Imamah in this instance. This establishes absolutely that a true Imam too receives some wahy from Allah. Of course, al-Mahdi is an Imam “sent” by Him from the offspring of Ibrahim, Isma’il, Muhammad and ‘Ali, ‘alaihim al-salam.
In another words from my understanding they have much more access to wahy. Their Wahy they don't have to wait. They ask and they get it.
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According to a Hadith narrated by sayyidina Ali رضى الله عنه the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said:
يَخْرُجُ رَجُلٌ مِنْ وَرَاءِ النَّهْرِ يُقَالُ لَهُ الْحَارِثُ حَرَّاثٍ عَلَى مُقَدِّمَتِهِ رَجُلٌ يُقَالُ لَهُ مَنْصُورٌ يُوَطِّئُ أَوْ يُمَكِّنُ لآلِ مُحَمَّدٍ كَمَا مَكَّنَتْ قُرَيْشٌ لِرَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَجَبَ عَلَى كُلِّ مُؤْمِنٍ نَصْرُهُ أَوْ قَالَ إِجَابَتُهُ
"A man will come from Transoxania called al-Harith Harrath. His army will be led by a man called Mansur. They will consolidate for the Family of Muhammad as Quraysh consolidated for Allah's Apostle صلى الله عليه وسلم. Every believer is obligated to help him." "Or respond to him" (Sunan Abi Dawud #4290)
Although the Hadith is Da'if due to two unknown narrators (Abu al-Hasan al-Kufi and Hilal b. Amro al-Kufi), I think there is some truth to it.
Now it is certainly anachronistic for the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم to refer to Man Wara an-Nahr (Transoxania). This term appeared later when the Arabs actually reached that region, it was unknown to them in the time of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. But if you consider all the Ahadith, despite their weakness, about a connection between the promised Mahdi and an army with black banners from Khurasan, then it is quite possible that some significant Islamic figure will appear from that general region.
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According to a Hadith narrated by sayyidina Ali رضى الله عنه the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said:
يَخْرُجُ رَجُلٌ مِنْ وَرَاءِ النَّهْرِ يُقَالُ لَهُ الْحَارِثُ حَرَّاثٍ عَلَى مُقَدِّمَتِهِ رَجُلٌ يُقَالُ لَهُ مَنْصُورٌ يُوَطِّئُ أَوْ يُمَكِّنُ لآلِ مُحَمَّدٍ كَمَا مَكَّنَتْ قُرَيْشٌ لِرَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَجَبَ عَلَى كُلِّ مُؤْمِنٍ نَصْرُهُ أَوْ قَالَ إِجَابَتُهُ
"A man will come from Transoxania called al-Harith Harrath. His army will be led by a man called Mansur. They will consolidate for the Family of Muhammad as Quraysh consolidated for Allah's Apostle صلى الله عليه وسلم. Every believer is obligated to help him." "Or respond to him" (Sunan Abi Dawud #4290)
Although the Hadith is Da'if due to two unknown narrators (Abu al-Hasan al-Kufi and Hilal b. Amro al-Kufi), I think there is some truth to it.
Now it is certainly anachronistic for the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم to refer to Man Wara an-Nahr (Transoxania). This term appeared later when the Arabs actually reached that region, it was unknown to them in the time of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. But if you consider all the Ahadith, despite their weakness, about a connection between the promised Mahdi and an army with black banners from Khurasan, then it is quite possible that some significant Islamic figure will appear from that general region.
In the era of Imam Nafs-az-Zakiyah (as) there was a confusion. Some scholars and Muslims even believed that Imam Nafs az Zakiyah (as) was the Mahdi. In that revolution the Abbasids were among the main supporters and the support included the ruler Al Mansoor who gave bayah and fought against the Ummayads. I don't know if hadith was fabricated by them. Also, the Abbasids at the time carried black flags as well. Once al Mansoor al Abbasid got into power he crucified Imam Nafs-az-Zakiyah (as) in Madina along with his 313 supporters.
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In the era of Imam Nafs-az-Zakiyah (as) there was a confusion. Some scholars and Muslims even believed that Imam Nafs az Zakiyah (as) was the Mahdi. In that revolution the Abbasids were among the main supporters and the support included the ruler Al Mansoor who gave bayah and fought against the Ummayads. I don't know if hadith was fabricated by them. Also, the Abbasids at the time carried black flags as well. Once al Mansoor al Abbasid got into power he crucified Imam Nafs-az-Zakiyah (as) in Madina along with his 313 supporters.
Yes I'm aware of the history but let me tell you why I don't believe this Hadith was fabricated by the Abbasids:
1. The figure of Harith Harrath is to appear from Transoxania, the land beyond the Oxus River where the towns of Bukhara, Samarqand, Tirmiz are located (modern day Uzbekistan)
If the Abbasids meant this Hadith to apply to Abu Muslim al-Khurasani, it cannot, because Abu Muslim got the appellation "al-Khurasani" after being sent to that region where he made Merv his center and defeated Nasr bin Sayyar the Umayyad governor of the province. Note the town of Merv is not included in Man Wara an-Nahr (Transoxania) because it is south of the River.
In fact it was never apparent that the Abbasids would get any support from the Khurasan region until the rise of Abu Muslim al-Khurasani. So I doubt it was fabricated by the Abbasids, at least before their uprising began.
2. The Abbasid caliph "al-Mansur" never really led any army during the initial Abbasid uprising. He took the regnal title "al-Mansur", but his original name was Abdullah. The Hadith says that a man named Mansur shall lead the Army of Harith Harrath.
3. It is implied in the Hadith that neither Harith Harrath nor Mansur are from the Aale Muhammad AS. They will instead work for the service of Aale Muhammad AS to establish a caliphate on their behalf. The Abbasids, however, considered themselves the Aale Muhammad being the progeny of Sayyidina Abu al-Fadl Abbas bin Abdal Muttalib رضى الله عنه.
As you pointed out the Abbasid dynasty betrayed the Shiite cause and seized power for themselves when before they pretended to be part of the Kaysanite or Shiite movement whose purpose was to establish the caliphate for the Alids.
Therefore, I doubt this narration could have been fabricated by the Abbasids after they rose to power in order to justify their rule. If this Hadith is a fabrication, it must be a fabrication of the Alids and not Abbasids.
Imam Abu Dawud is actually narrating this Hadith from Harun b. al-Mughira, who was not an Abbasid propagandist but according to the Muhaddithin had connection to the Shi'a.
The chain of the Hadith is authentic until we reach the unknown narrator Abu al-Hasan al-Kufi. Mutarrif b. Tarif (d. 141 H) is narrating from him.
I doubt that either Abu al-Hasan al-Kufi or Hilal b. Amru were Abbasid propagandists. They were likely Kufan Shiites.
If we assume this Hadith was an Abbasid fabrication, then we assume that the figure of Mansur corresponds to Abu Ja'far al-Mansur. In that case the figure of Harith Harrath of Transoxania presents a problem. Who does he correspond to? It cannot be Abu Muslim Khurasani, as the latter worked for the Abbasids serving as their general and not the other way around. But the Hadith says it is Mansur who leads the army of Harith Harrath, a figure that comes from Transoxania.
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عَنْ أَنَسٍ : أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ كَانَ نَائِمًا فِي بَيْتِ أُمِّ سُلَيْمٍ ، فَأَتَتْهُ وَهُوَ يَسْتَرْجِعُ فَقَالَتْ : يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ! مِمَّ تَسْتَرْجِعُ ؟ قَالَ : مِنْ قِبَلِ جَيْشٍ يَحْدِرُ مِنْ قِبَلِ الْعِرَاقِ فِي طَلَبِ رَجُلٍ مِنَ الْمَدِينَةِ ، يَمْنَعُهُ اللَّهُ مِنْهُمْ ، فَإِذَا عَلَوُا الْبَيْدَاءَ مِنْ ذِي الْحُلَيْفَةِ خُسِفَ بِهِمْ ، فَلا يُدْرِكُ أَعْلَاهُمْ أَسْفَلَهُمْ ، وَلا يُدْرِكُ أَسْفَلُهُمْ أَعْلاهُمْ إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ ، وَمَصَارِعُهُمْ شَتَّى قِيلَ : يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ، كَيْفَ يُخْسَفُ بِهِمْ جَمِيعًا وَمَصَارِعُهُمْ شَتَّى ؟ قَالَ : إِنَّ مِنْهُمْ أَوْ فِيهِمْ مَنْ جُبِرَ
Anas RA narrates that Rasul Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم said: "An army from the direction of Iraq (i.e. East) will march in search of a man from Madinah, but Allah will prevent it from him. When they are at al-Bayda (the Earth) will collapse beneath them..." (Musnad al-Bazaar)
Although some narrations say that this Army that will be destroyed at Bayda or an open plain will come from the north, this narration is interesting because it says they will come from the direction of Iraq, meaning the east of Madinah. This is the region where the capital of the modern Saudi state is (Riyadh).