TwelverShia.net Forum

Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Imamah-Ghaybah => Topic started by: Link on April 09, 2017, 03:29:46 AM

Title: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: Link on April 09, 2017, 03:29:46 AM
The Prophets  had many aspects in their mission, the Messengerhood (which not all Prophets had) which is conveying the clear message from God, and Giving revelation/news from God (relating revelation from God), and interpreting the revelation/book/scriptures, emphasizing on the true interpretation of their predecessor, providing clear proofs, and leadership which had the followings aspects: 1. The right to govern humanity (humanity was required to believe in them and help them achieve the right to govern) 2. Exemplifying the virtues from God's light in actions that people see outwardly. 3. Commanding believers and people required to obey them and believe in them. 4. Manifest the inward path and unseen path through unseen help and guiding company by God's command.

They never came alone, but always, the founder was succeeded by other Captains who sail the boat of God's religion and steer people in the right course, in the course of God's Name.

They were the rope from God to humans because they were the means to know the revelation truly and their predecessor's revelations were to be connected to their interpretation and their revelations.

However, when thought about, the plan to put end to revelations and hence Prophethood, cannot be to stop this way of guidance, but rather to perfect it.

That is if God is going to put end to revelations, it doesn't do away with the other roles Prophets had, which is where the Imams carry on their other roles.

The Quran shows Prophets aside from revealing revelations were kings to be obeyed by God's permission and they were leaders who guided by God's command, and they were servants of God that prayed to be leaders of the pious, and who do not need to be given mansions to be honored, but rather their true reward is in the next world.

The end of Prophethood meaning the end of divine leadership is an unproven assertion.

If God wanted to emphasize that there were no more chosen leaders after Mohammad, he should have explicitly said that. But all Muslims believe in the return of Jesus which is a divine authority upon humanity and believe in the Mahdi which is proven to be guided and hence obligatory to be followed. The obligation to follow him means he is God's ruler and representative.

Given this background in Quran, this background of the role of Prophets aside from being "news givers" from God, who were humans sent with information from God to be revealed to humanity,  they obviously had these other important roles, given this background of their roles, why assume the Ulil-Amr are not meant in the sense of the divine authority of the Prophets.

Like Hani always says "the family of Abraham's authority" is different because they are Prophets, but how else would God emphasize on the same authority of the Prophets but without them being sent with information to convey to humanity from God?

Why not assume they take on all the other roles Prophets had aside from that one?  Without explicitly mentioning an end to witnesses and leaders and guides of humanity, why assume it came to an end with Mohammad?

Why assume the family of Mohammad is other that of chosen ones, like chosen families of Prophets were of the past?

Why not take the position of Aeron to Moses position for Ali to Mohammad, as is, and just leave out the Prophethood part?














Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: muslim720 on April 11, 2017, 06:55:27 PM
They never came alone, but always, the founder was succeeded by other Captains who sail the boat of God's religion and steer people in the right course, in the course of God's Name.

Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,
What are you on?  I do not even know the starting point from where (in fact, if at all necessary) to engage with you.  You are harping on the term, "Captain".  Others, like yourself, have coined, "Prince of ____" for your Imams (ra), "Lady" for Fatima (ra), on and on.  Do you even read the rubbish you post?  If it was an elastic band, never mind its strength, it would have snapped by now given your level of incoherent extrapolation.

Explaining Prophets (asws) as "leaders", you then tell us that we need "captains".  This is Islam you are playing with; this is not football that you need captains.

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The end of Prophethood meaning the end of divine leadership is an unproven assertion.

The Qur'an (unless you are quasi-Qadiani) states that prophethood would end with the "Seal of Prophets" (saw).  The Prophet (saw) told your "captain" that he to him is like Haroon (asws) was to Musa (asws) "except there is no Prophet after me”.  What do you smoke that leads you to such delusion and denial?

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If God wanted to emphasize that there were no more chosen leaders after Mohammad, he should have explicitly said that.

He (swt) did; just never sat well with you.

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But all Muslims believe in the return of Jesus which is a divine authority upon humanity and believe in the Mahdi which is proven to be guided and hence obligatory to be followed.

Isa (asws) and Mahdi (as) will not bring anything new; they will set things right.  You have confused (new) revelation with re-establishing order.  Irrespective of which way you cut it, where is your current captain when the team is in utter ruins?  Oh right, he is like the sun on a cloudy.....STHU!

Invest in a pair of tweezers for your caterpillar eyebrows; I see your eyebrows and I automatically know that verbal diarrhea is to follow.
Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: Link on April 12, 2017, 02:28:29 PM
Salam

1. What is meant by "Captain" is not that of a team captain, but that of a navigator, a Captain of a ship.  The word in Quran is used in conjugation with what it has said about parables of "ships".  The ship the Captains risen from God sail, is the one that is by God's Name in it's steering and anchoring.

2.  I don't see proof that Prophethood and divine leadership mean the exact same thing. Quite the opposite.

3.  You said that Al-Mahdi and Jesus won't be bringing a new revelation we agree. But they are still taking on position of authority and leadership. So what is it, is it that there is no more divine leadership or there is? The point is I don't equate Nubuwa with divine Leadership, rather I say an essential role that Prophets had was Imammate, while you just contradicted yourself!

Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: muslim720 on April 12, 2017, 04:38:31 PM
Salam

1. What is meant by "Captain" is not that of a team captain, but that of a navigator, a Captain of a ship.  The word in Quran is used in conjugation with what it has said about parables of "ships".  The ship the Captains risen from God sail, is the one that is by God's Name in it's steering and anchoring.

2.  I don't see proof that Prophethood and divine leadership mean the exact same thing. Quite the opposite.

3.  You said that Al-Mahdi and Jesus won't be bringing a new revelation we agree. But they are still taking on position of authority and leadership. So what is it, is it that there is no more divine leadership or there is? The point is I don't equate Nubuwa with divine Leadership, rather I say an essential role that Prophets had was Imammate, while you just contradicted yourself!



1.  The Qur'an also gives other parables.  Should we go around linking these parables to individuals and religious concepts?  The purpose of the parable is to drive a point home, not to give you the "blank check" authority to put on a belief gymnastics display.

2.  I really think you are free to think whatever but you have no point.  Imamat is still as innovated (and an alien concept to the Islam taught by the Prophet [saw]) as it was before your post all the way back to its inception.

3.  If you understood Mahdi (as) like he should be, you wouldn't have made that comment.  Mahdi (as) will be an upright leader who will establish justice.  I did not contradict myself because I clearly stated that you have confused re-establishing order with (new) revelation.  Lastly, we have proof for (our version of) Mahdi (as) from the lips of the Prophet (saw).  Your "captaincy" concept falls flat; it is like the team is waiting and the "captain" is busy hiding somewhere.  Certainly a winning game plan you have there.  Go team!
Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: Link on April 12, 2017, 07:13:45 PM
1.  The Qur'an also gives other parables.  Should we go around linking these parables to individuals and religious concepts?  The purpose of the parable is to drive a point home, not to give you the "blank check" authority to put on a belief gymnastics display.

Every parable should be given it's due, including the issue of ship and Captain with respect to religion, both words are used in Quran.  The Quran also uses the word "gate" with respect to the covenant with chosen guides and so it's appropriate to use its parables. It also uses the word "way/course" with respect to his chosen ones so there is nothing wrong with using what it emphasized on to prove to humanity the need of God's chosen ones to guide them.

In the case of navigator recall the just city and the need of a just navigator who sees the light as it's meant to be seen as proven and explained by Socrates!


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2.  I really think you are free to think whatever but you have no point.  Imamat is still as innovated (and an alien concept to the Islam taught by the Prophet [saw]) as it was before your post all the way back to its inception.

On the contrary, Quran emphasized on leadership of the Prophets and that role they had and emphasized that we have such leaders with such leadership role except they are not Prophets.


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3.  If you understood Mahdi (as) like he should be, you wouldn't have made that comment.  Mahdi (as) will be an upright leader who will establish justice.  I did not contradict myself because I clearly stated that you have confused re-establishing order with (new) revelation.  Lastly, we have proof for (our version of) Mahdi (as) from the lips of the Prophet (saw).  Your "captaincy" concept falls flat; it is like the team is waiting and the "captain" is busy hiding somewhere.  Certainly a winning game plan you have there.  Go team!

What about Jesus, does his divine leadership and authority go away? Regardless if it's to re-establish order or more than that, the point is you acknowledge leadership that is chosen by God after Mohammad at least in the case of Jesus (we know you guys get allergic to accepting Imam Mahdi as chosen by God even though by definition he is).

The point is if you define Prophethood as chosen leadership by God, then it continues after Mohammad by your definition.


Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: muslim720 on April 12, 2017, 07:42:28 PM
In the case of navigator recall the just city and the need of a just navigator who sees the light as it's meant to be seen as proven and explained by Socrates!

Clearly says a lot - though very little in terms of quality - when you rely on Socrates to understand the so-called Islamic foundations which you claim to be rooted in the Qur'an.  Have you ever spared a moment to think why among all your usool-e-deen, there is only one you cannot prove using one unambiguous Qur'anic verse?


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What about Jesus, does his divine leadership and authority go away? Regardless if it's to re-establish order or more than that, the point is you acknowledge leadership that is chosen by God after Mohammad at least in the case of Jesus (we know you guys get allergic to accepting Imam Mahdi as chosen by God even though by definition he is).

Imam Mahdi (as) is just as chosen by Allah (swt) as Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman (may Allah be pleased with them) were chosen as the first three Caliphs.  By extension of that definition, you are chosen to drive us nuts with your nonsense while I am chosen to confront it.

Even if we accept that leadership is chosen by Allah (swt) after Muhammad (saw), it is not problematic to explain Imam Mahdi (as) because he was prophesied.  Nothing of that sort exists for your "captains".  Hence, irrespective of how we define the word "chosen" or even if we go by your paradigm, you have no point.  The coming of Imam Mahdi (as) was announced; the captaincy of your absent captain was not.

Having said all that, you might want to spend some time with Qadianis.  You will find them very open to your winded posts and arguments.  However, do not be offended if they show you an image of an one-eyed bandit and tell you that he was your 12th captain.
Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: Link on April 13, 2017, 01:36:01 AM
Can you address what I said about Isa (as)?

We know you guys are allergic to Imam Mahdi, but you will say that Jesus leadership is not divine either?

If not, then my point that divine leadership doesn't mean Prophethood stands.
Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: muslim720 on April 13, 2017, 04:57:38 AM
Can you address what I said about Isa (as)?

The second-coming of Isa (asws), as mentioned earlier, has been prophesied.  That does nothing for you and Imamat because of the fundamental difference between something being prophesied and something being innovated.  Except by verbal gymnastics and desperate extrapolation, both of which are the underlying principles of each and every post of yours, you can never amalgamate those two concepts.

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We know you guys are allergic to Imam Mahdi

Why would we be allergic to Imam Mahdi (as)?  Our (concept of) Imam Mahdi (as) comes is affirmed by Prophetic narrations.  Your Imam Mahdi is a byproduct of imagination and innovated narrations.

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If not, then my point that divine leadership doesn't mean Prophethood stands.

If you type "Divine Leadership in Qur'an" in Google, almost all the search results (on the first page at least) refer to Shia and Ahmadi websites.  That, in of itself, says a lot about your semantics such as "divine leadership", "captains", "lady Fatima".....till the end of your list of nonsense.
Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: Link on April 13, 2017, 12:50:07 PM
Still ignoring my point.
Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: Abu Muhammad on April 13, 2017, 06:46:58 PM

What about Jesus, does his divine leadership and authority go away? Regardless if it's to re-establish order or more than that, the point is you acknowledge leadership that is chosen by God after Mohammad at least in the case of Jesus (we know you guys get allergic to accepting Imam Mahdi as chosen by God even though by definition he is).

The point is if you define Prophethood as chosen leadership by God, then it continues after Mohammad by your definition.


Do you think when we Sunnis accepted the leadership of Jesus a.s. towards the end of time, the acceptance is the same as the concept of imamah as understood by Twelvers?
Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: mhmd on April 13, 2017, 07:28:28 PM

Can you address what I said about Isa (as)?

We know you guys are allergic to Imam Mahdi, but you will say that Jesus leadership is not divine either?

If not, then my point that divine leadership doesn't mean Prophethood stands.


Jesus and Mahdi are prophesied. For Muslims, that's all we need to know.  The esoteric details of their stations aren't given and, indeed, are irrelevant except to those desperate to justify cultural corruptions for which neither authority nor evidence has been sent down.
Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: Link on April 14, 2017, 06:35:13 PM
I'm using it as a counter to the claim that Seal of Prophets means no more divine leadership or authority after Mohammad.
Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: Rationalist on April 15, 2017, 12:27:32 AM
I'm using it as a counter to the claim that Seal of Prophets means no more divine leadership or authority after Mohammad.

if the 12th Imam is the seal of Waliyah without a successor then why can't the concept concept apply for Prophethood?
Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: Abu Muhammad on April 15, 2017, 01:53:17 AM
I'm using it as a counter to the claim that Seal of Prophets means no more divine leadership or authority after Mohammad.

Since when 'seal of prophets' is talking about divine leadership or authority after Muhammad s.a.w.? You are doing the 'twisting business' again, as usual.

Seal of prophets means no more new prophets after Muhammad s.a.w. Isa a.s. is not a new prophet. Every muslim knows that he a.s. was a prophet before Muhammad s.a.w. as he a.s. is clearly mentioned in the Quran as the prophet of the past. The only thing is that he lives a very long life and will die after the demise of Muhammad s.a.w.

You know what. You are arguing against something that we ourselves not using it as an argument against you.
Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: Link on April 15, 2017, 07:34:28 PM
I'm using it as a counter to the claim that Seal of Prophets means no more divine leadership or authority after Mohammad.

Since when 'seal of prophets' is talking about divine leadership or authority after Muhammad s.a.w.? You are doing the 'twisting business' again, as usual.

Seal of prophets means no more new prophets after Muhammad s.a.w. Isa a.s. is not a new prophet. Every muslim knows that he a.s. was a prophet before Muhammad s.a.w. as he a.s. is clearly mentioned in the Quran as the prophet of the past. The only thing is that he lives a very long life and will die after the demise of Muhammad s.a.w.

You know what. You are arguing against something that we ourselves not using it as an argument against you.

Look at the posts that followed my post. It was saying God clearly clarified there would be no chosen leaders after Mohammad with the Seal of Prophets verse. 

In fact I think most Sunnis I meet in real life use the notion of God sealing Prophets to imply there is no more chosen leaders after Mohammad.

Going back to the OP, just like Prophethood is clarified to end if it does end, I argue Imammate if it were to end, must be clarified to end in Quran or if that there is no succession of leaders after Mohammad, it would be clarified just as the Seal of Prophets were to be clarified.

For example, if I say "don't eat any grapefruits for it may interfere with your medications", although oranges and other fruits resemble grapefruit in many ways,  it is in fact good for me to eat fruits and oranges. Oranges maybe very similar in many ways, but it doesn't mean they are bad.

The specific reason of ending Prophethood has to do with Prophethood and that God doesn't want us to give a serious consideration to people who claim the Quran is true but that they are Prophets as well.

It eliminates that process and exposes all such false claimants who testify to Quran through mouth but then seek to make it as if there are Prophets.

Since Quran has mentioned benefit of leaders and guides and divinely anointed Kings, then my no means, does this imply we should not give serious consideration to the claim there are leaders and divinely chosen successors.  Succession after a founder has been emphasized.

If it was bad to give serious consideration to that,  in the same way that it refuted Prophethood claims who testify to the Quran, it should of refuted all the other roles of his chosen ones to have stopped after Mohammad.

But we see Quran in fact confirms that all people of the book will believe in Jesus before his death, and so if Jesus were the only divinely chosen leader, it would have to emphasized and clarified that.

It would have to emphasize that are no successors to Mohammad to lead us.

The same wisdom of ending Prophethood doesn't necessarily apply to ending leadership. In fact perfecting leadership and uniting people on the final successor to Mohammad may very well be the reason for sealing revelation, that it is maybe it's to perfect the issue of Leadership and authority of God through his chosen ones on humanity.

If it didn't want us to give serious consideration to that, it should of clarified there is no such chosen leaders to succeed Mohammad....as it makes no sense to clarify it for Prophethood but not chosen leadership and succession to the Captaincy of the ship of salvation!

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance!
Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: Abu Muhammad on April 15, 2017, 11:50:23 PM

Look at the posts that followed my post. It was saying God clearly clarified there would be no chosen leaders after Mohammad with the Seal of Prophets verse. 


Could you show me which post were you referring to?

In fact I think most Sunnis I meet in real life use the notion of God sealing Prophets to imply there is no more chosen leaders after Mohammad.

There is no more chosen leaders after Muhammad s.a.w. with the quality of prophets (not for Isa a.s. since he was a prophet even before the coming of Muhammad s.a.w.).

Mahdi will come at the end of time but he is just a good normal guy.

Going back to the OP, just like Prophethood is clarified to end if it does end, I argue Imammate if it were to end, must be clarified to end in Quran or if that there is no succession of leaders after Mohammad, it would be clarified just as the Seal of Prophets were to be clarified.

You need to prove first that there is such things as imamat in the Quran (which Twelvers has clearly failed to decisively prove). Otherwise, why would Allah s.w.t. end something that hasn't been mentioned in the Quran? Simply doesn't make sense.

The specific reason of ending Prophethood has to do with Prophethood and that God doesn't want us to give a serious consideration to people who claim the Quran is true but that they are Prophets as well.

It eliminates that process and exposes all such false claimants who testify to Quran through mouth but then seek to make it as if there are Prophets.

Are you sure of this? Then provide evidence from the Quran and hadith. Otherwise, all I can say it came from your whims and desires.

Since Quran has mentioned benefit of leaders and guides and divinely anointed Kings, then my no means, does this imply we should not give serious consideration to the claim there are leaders and divinely chosen successors.  Succession after a founder has been emphasized.

If it was bad to give serious consideration to that,  in the same way that it refuted Prophethood claims who testify to the Quran, it should of refuted all the other roles of his chosen ones to have stopped after Mohammad.

Ahhh… what a verbal gymnastic! Just after giving SPECIFIC reason for ending of prophethood that "God doesn't want us to give a serious consideration to people who claim the Quran is true but that they are Prophets as well" and "eliminates that process and exposes all such false claimants who testify to Quran through mouth but then seek to make it as if there are Prophets", you make exception for your so-called divine leaders. BRAVO!

But we see Quran in fact confirms that all people of the book will believe in Jesus before his death, and so if Jesus were the only divinely chosen leader, it would have to emphasized and clarified that.

It would have to emphasize that are no successors to Mohammad to lead us.

The same wisdom of ending Prophethood doesn't necessarily apply to ending leadership. In fact perfecting leadership and uniting people on the final successor to Mohammad may very well be the reason for sealing revelation, that it is maybe it's to perfect the issue of Leadership and authority of God through his chosen ones on humanity.

If it didn't want us to give serious consideration to that, it should of clarified there is no such chosen leaders to succeed Mohammad....as it makes no sense to clarify it for Prophethood but not chosen leadership and succession to the Captaincy of the ship of salvation!

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance!

You know what. Isa a.s.'s second coming and Mahdi are just a sign of end of time as mentioned in hadith that qiamah will not happen until these two men coming and bring justice to the world.If you were happened to live during that time, be with them. If you were not, don't bother them. Bother about your own 'end of time' i.e. death…
Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: Link on April 16, 2017, 12:45:50 AM
1. There is wisdom in God telling us there are no more Prophets after Mohammad.
2. By the same clear wisdom that God told us to for there to be no more Prophets would apply to telling us there are no more divinely chosen leaders after Mohammad that succeed him if there was no more divinely chosen leaders to succeed Mohammad's position.
3. God didn't tell us there are no more divinely chosen leaders to succeed Mohammad's position.
4. Therefore there are divinely chosen leaders after Mohammad who succeed him.

Which premise is disputed here?

Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: Link on April 16, 2017, 12:51:25 AM
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If God wanted to emphasize that there were no more chosen leaders after Mohammad, he should have explicitly said that.

He (swt) did; just never sat well with you.

See...and look at other posts.
Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: Abu Muhammad on April 16, 2017, 04:05:41 AM
1. There is wisdom in God telling us there are no more Prophets after Mohammad.
2. By the same clear wisdom that God told us to for there to be no more Prophets would apply to telling us there are no more divinely chosen leaders after Mohammad that succeed him if there was no more divinely chosen leaders to succeed Mohammad's position.
3. God didn't tell us there are no more divinely chosen leaders to succeed Mohammad's position.
4. Therefore there are divinely chosen leaders after Mohammad who succeed him.

Which premise is disputed here?

There were no mentioned of following the so-called 'chosen leaders' after Muhammad s.a.w. in the Quran in the first place. So, how could Allah s.w.t. negate something that he didn't instruct in the Quran?

There were so much aql in your writing and no naql (Quran & hadith). You should be the follower of Socrates, Plato and all those Greek philosophers instead of Muhammad s.a.w.
Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: Link on April 16, 2017, 04:10:17 AM
1. There is wisdom in God telling us there are no more Prophets after Mohammad.
2. By the same clear wisdom that God told us to for there to be no more Prophets would apply to telling us there are no more divinely chosen leaders after Mohammad that succeed him if there was no more divinely chosen leaders to succeed Mohammad's position.
3. God didn't tell us there are no more divinely chosen leaders to succeed Mohammad's position.
4. Therefore there are divinely chosen leaders after Mohammad who succeed him.

Which premise is disputed here?

There were no mentioned of following the so-called 'chosen leaders' after Muhammad s.a.w. in the Quran in the first place. So, how could Allah s.w.t. negate something that he didn't instruct in the Quran?

There were so much aql in your writing and no naql (Quran & hadith). You should be the follower of Socrates, Plato and all those Greek philosophers instead of Muhammad s.a.w.

Which premise is disputed?

 What you say is another disputed thing and it's wrong to attack the conclusion instead of the argument.... There is also no point of going off-topic. If you wish to discuss the verses I believe are about leadership, you can do so, in their respective threads.

Or we can have a one on one debate about it. But this thread is making a different argument.

If you add the premise "if Imammate was true, it would be in Quran", then the argument that you quoted but didn't address would prove it is in the Quran.

Quran shows Prophet aside from revealing revelation had chosen leadership roles! So it's mentioned. So if leadership through chosen ones was to end, God should clarify that.

Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: Abu Muhammad on April 16, 2017, 04:37:12 AM
1. There is wisdom in God telling us there are no more Prophets after Mohammad.
2. By the same clear wisdom that God told us to for there to be no more Prophets would apply to telling us there are no more divinely chosen leaders after Mohammad that succeed him if there was no more divinely chosen leaders to succeed Mohammad's position.
3. God didn't tell us there are no more divinely chosen leaders to succeed Mohammad's position.
4. Therefore there are divinely chosen leaders after Mohammad who succeed him.

Which premise is disputed here?

There were no mentioned of following the so-called 'chosen leaders' after Muhammad s.a.w. in the Quran in the first place. So, how could Allah s.w.t. negate something that he didn't instruct in the Quran?

There were so much aql in your writing and no naql (Quran & hadith). You should be the follower of Socrates, Plato and all those Greek philosophers instead of Muhammad s.a.w.

Which premise is disputed?

 What you say is another disputed thing and it's wrong to attack the conclusion instead of the argument.... There is also no point of going off-topic. If you wish to discuss the verses I believe are about leadership, you can do so, in their respective threads.

Or we can have a one on one debate about it. But this thread is making a different argument.

If you add the premise "if Imammate was true, it would be in Quran", then the argument that you quoted but didn't address would prove it is in the Quran.

Quran shows Prophet aside from revealing revelation had chosen leadership roles! So it's mentioned. So if leadership through chosen ones was to end, God should clarify that.

Since when it is off-topic? Read properly. I'm disputing your premise no. 2 and indirectly no. 3. Because you are using your aql here equating prophethood and your 'chosen leaders' whereas no quranic ayahs ever mentioned about following this so called 'leaders' in the first place.
Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: Link on April 16, 2017, 04:50:26 AM
1. There is wisdom in God telling us there are no more Prophets after Mohammad.
2. By the same clear wisdom that God told us to for there to be no more Prophets would apply to telling us there are no more divinely chosen leaders after Mohammad that succeed him if there was no more divinely chosen leaders to succeed Mohammad's position.
3. God didn't tell us there are no more divinely chosen leaders to succeed Mohammad's position.
4. Therefore there are divinely chosen leaders after Mohammad who succeed him.

Which premise is disputed here?

There were no mentioned of following the so-called 'chosen leaders' after Muhammad s.a.w. in the Quran in the first place. So, how could Allah s.w.t. negate something that he didn't instruct in the Quran?

There were so much aql in your writing and no naql (Quran & hadith). You should be the follower of Socrates, Plato and all those Greek philosophers instead of Muhammad s.a.w.

Which premise is disputed?

 What you say is another disputed thing and it's wrong to attack the conclusion instead of the argument.... There is also no point of going off-topic. If you wish to discuss the verses I believe are about leadership, you can do so, in their respective threads.

Or we can have a one on one debate about it. But this thread is making a different argument.

If you add the premise "if Imammate was true, it would be in Quran", then the argument that you quoted but didn't address would prove it is in the Quran.

Quran shows Prophet aside from revealing revelation had chosen leadership roles! So it's mentioned. So if leadership through chosen ones was to end, God should clarify that.

Since when it is off-topic? Read properly. I'm disputing your premise no. 2 and indirectly no. 3. Because you are using your aql here equating prophethood and your 'chosen leaders' whereas no quranic ayahs ever mentioned about following this so called 'leaders' in the first place.

So in disputing 2, you are essential saying Prophets didn't have the role of leadership?

Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: Abu Muhammad on April 16, 2017, 05:42:04 AM

So in disputing 2, you are essential saying Prophets didn't have the role of leadership?


What have you been smoking all this while? How can you conclude that I essentially said prophets didn't have the role of leadership?

Again, read slowly and properly. I was talking about prophethood and your chosen leaders i.e. those leaders after the Muhammad s.a.w. Not the QUALITY of prophethood itself.
Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: Link on April 16, 2017, 06:10:49 PM
Then you are attacking the conclusion and not the argument.

Since you believe Prophets had the role of leadership, it should have said that leadership would come to end if it were.

In other were words it should have been clear there would be no chosen leaders after Mohammad that succeed him.  You can't say there is no such thing as chosen leaders in Quran, because that was a primary role Prophets had.

Please don't attack the conclusion or anything related to the conclusion but address the actual argument.
Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: muslim720 on April 16, 2017, 07:23:54 PM
Still ignoring my point.

Ignoring which point?  Do you even have a point?  You have no point - other than what you use extrapolation to appear like you have one - because everything you say is rooted in your own whims.  As for Isa (asws) and Imam Mahdi (as), they are prophesied.  If the same was true regarding your "captains", you would have a point.
Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: Link on April 18, 2017, 06:50:45 AM
Yes I have a point. Try to digest it.
Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: muslim720 on April 18, 2017, 07:11:17 AM
Yes I have a point. Try to digest it.


No, you do not have a point.  To try to insert it in the Qur'an is adding insult to injury.
Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: GreatChineseFall on April 18, 2017, 11:37:26 AM
1. There is wisdom in God telling us there are no more Prophets after Mohammad.
2. By the same clear wisdom that God told us to for there to be no more Prophets would apply to telling us there are no more divinely chosen leaders after Mohammad that succeed him if there was no more divinely chosen leaders to succeed Mohammad's position.
3. God didn't tell us there are no more divinely chosen leaders to succeed Mohammad's position.
4. Therefore there are divinely chosen leaders after Mohammad who succeed him.

Which premise is disputed here?

1. There is wisdom in God telling us clearly and unambiguously without allusion or parables that the belief in Prophets is a fundamental part of Islam
2. By the same clear wisdom that God told us to believe in Prophets unambiguously and clearly without allusion or parables would apply to telling us we have to believe in divinely chosen leaders besides Prophets if there were to be divinely chosen leaders we have to believe in.
3. God didn't tell us unambiguously and without allusion and parables that we have to believe in divinely chosen leaders besides Prophets like the Prophets.
4. Therefore we don't have to believe in divinely chosen leaders besides Prophets like the Prophets.

Which premise is disputed here?
Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: Link on April 18, 2017, 02:59:21 PM
1. There is wisdom in God telling us there are no more Prophets after Mohammad.
2. By the same clear wisdom that God told us to for there to be no more Prophets would apply to telling us there are no more divinely chosen leaders after Mohammad that succeed him if there was no more divinely chosen leaders to succeed Mohammad's position.
3. God didn't tell us there are no more divinely chosen leaders to succeed Mohammad's position.
4. Therefore there are divinely chosen leaders after Mohammad who succeed him.

Which premise is disputed here?

1. There is wisdom in God telling us clearly and unambiguously without allusion or parables that the belief in Prophets is a fundamental part of Islam
2. By the same clear wisdom that God told us to believe in Prophets unambiguously and clearly without allusion or parables would apply to telling us we have to believe in divinely chosen leaders besides Prophets if there were to be divinely chosen leaders we have to believe in.
3. God didn't tell us unambiguously and without allusion and parables that we have to believe in divinely chosen leaders besides Prophets like the Prophets.
4. Therefore we don't have to believe in divinely chosen leaders besides Prophets like the Prophets.

Which premise is disputed here?

#3.

As I stated, side remarks about the conclusion are off-topic from this topic.

If the premises are true from this argument, it would mean God appointed Imams.

And since 2 is true and 1 is true in your argument, it follows that God did tell us unambiguously that there are chosen leaders after the Prophet.

We dispute this claim, but it is off-topic from the argument here in this topic.

There are threads about verses related to Imams in other threads like 4:59 etc....

I am focusing on another angle in this thread.


Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: Hani on April 18, 2017, 11:17:45 PM
Define what is a "divinely chosen leader" in the shortest and most efficient definition.
Afterwards, define "prophet" in a similar manner.

This discussion you guys are having is pretty useless unless you define what each term means.
Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: GreatChineseFall on April 19, 2017, 06:57:09 PM
1. There is wisdom in God telling us there are no more Prophets after Mohammad.
2. By the same clear wisdom that God told us to for there to be no more Prophets would apply to telling us there are no more divinely chosen leaders after Mohammad that succeed him if there was no more divinely chosen leaders to succeed Mohammad's position.
3. God didn't tell us there are no more divinely chosen leaders to succeed Mohammad's position.
4. Therefore there are divinely chosen leaders after Mohammad who succeed him.

Which premise is disputed here?

1. There is wisdom in God telling us clearly and unambiguously without allusion or parables that the belief in Prophets is a fundamental part of Islam
2. By the same clear wisdom that God told us to believe in Prophets unambiguously and clearly without allusion or parables would apply to telling us we have to believe in divinely chosen leaders besides Prophets if there were to be divinely chosen leaders we have to believe in.
3. God didn't tell us unambiguously and without allusion and parables that we have to believe in divinely chosen leaders besides Prophets like the Prophets.
4. Therefore we don't have to believe in divinely chosen leaders besides Prophets like the Prophets.

Which premise is disputed here?
And since 2 is true and 1 is true in your argument, it follows that God did tell us unambiguously that there are chosen leaders after the Prophet.

What??
So assuming 1 and 2 are true, 3 can't possibly be true? This is logic to you?


#3.

As I stated, side remarks about the conclusion are off-topic from this topic.

I am focusing on another angle in this thread.

I am not going off-topic as my goal is not to discuss the subject, it's just to give you a piece of your own medicine. So let me respond in you likewise manner, maybe you'll see how silly it is:
#3.

If the premises are true from this argument, it would mean God didn't order someone to succeed the Prophet.

And since 2 is true and 1 is true in your argument, it follows that God did tell us unambiguously that there are no divinely chosen successors after the Prophet.

(I don't see a difference between your answer and mine, you are simply stating things)
Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: Link on April 19, 2017, 07:33:07 PM
Yes, that is exactly it. The reason of 1 and 2 is indisputable, it would make the verse of Sealing Prophethood without purpose if not true.

The same is true of God telling us to believe in Prophets unambiguously and the same logic applying to the need of clarifying unambiguously that there are chosen leaders after the Prophet, without that, those verses lose their meaning.

Now while my view is that there are verses unambiguously stating there are Imams appointed by God after Mohammad,  there is definitely not a single verse saying Imams chosen by God has come to an end so your argument is ad hoc (neither of us believe in the premise you are asserting).

There was some people trying to make it as if seal of Prophets means no more divinely chosen leaders, but we see this problematic with Jesus who comes back not as a Prophet but with divine authority and leadership, and arguably the Mahdi (You can try to redefine being chosen leader but the Mahdi at the end is exactly that).

So we would have to unambiguous declaration that after the Prophet that there is no chosen leader aside from Jesus (or Imam Mahdi included (let's not argue on the latter point, it is superfluous to the argument)).

But definitely there is no such clarification in the Quran and no one can assert that.

So it follows the conclusion is God appointed Imams and due to your argument it becomes clear that they have unambiguously been appointed in the Quran.

But to talk about where they are appointed unambiguously in Quran is off-topic... the thing is the argument I am posing combined with yours would prove they are.



 
Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: Link on April 19, 2017, 07:36:29 PM
But it is 3 that has to be the disputed premise in both arguments. But we know for certain there is no verse stating there are no chosen leaders after the Prophet.
Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: GreatChineseFall on April 20, 2017, 04:32:51 PM
Yes, that is exactly it. The reason of 1 and 2 is indisputable, it would make the verse of Sealing Prophethood without purpose if not true.

The same is true of God telling us to believe in Prophets unambiguously and the same logic applying to the need of clarifying unambiguously that there are chosen leaders after the Prophet, without that, those verses lose their meaning.

Hold your horses, I responded to you in likewise manner. It definitely doesn't mean I have no problem with anything else, but I will come to that later.

Btw, I will ask you again, can you confirm that you believe that if 1 and 2 are true, 3 can't possibly and logically be true?

Now while my view is that there are verses unambiguously stating there are Imams appointed by God after Mohammad,  there is definitely not a single verse saying Imams chosen by God has come to an end so your argument is ad hoc (neither of us believe in the premise you are asserting).
 

My view is that God did tell us that there will be no divinely chosen leaders after Prophet Muhammad saws. There is definitely not a single verse stating that we should believe in divinely chosen leaders besides Prophets.

(There is a difference between God clearly telling us something and a verse stating something. For example God clearly and unambiguously told us not to marry 25 wives at the same time, yet there is not a single verse stating that we should not marry 25 wives. Likewise, there is definitely not a single verse stating that we should believe in divinely chosen leaders besides Prophets, so nice attempt at sliding towards your view and very clever but try that with a five year old next time. And keep what both of us believe or don't to yourself)

There was some people trying to make it as if seal of Prophets means no more divinely chosen leaders, but we see this problematic with Jesus who comes back not as a Prophet but with divine authority and leadership, and arguably the Mahdi (You can try to redefine being chosen leader but the Mahdi at the end is exactly that).


There are some people trying to make it as if Ulil Amr are divinely chosen leaders besides Prophets,  but we see this is problematic as the verse tells us to refer things to the Messenger and Allah if we disagree with them.

So we would have to unambiguous declaration that after the Prophet that there is no chosen leader aside from Jesus (or Imam Mahdi included (let's not argue on the latter point, it is superfluous to the argument)).
 

.... we would have to unambiguous declaration ... ??
I am not even sure what you are trying to say here, it's not proper English, please clarify.


Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: GreatChineseFall on April 20, 2017, 04:35:55 PM
Define what is a "divinely chosen leader" in the shortest and most efficient definition.
Afterwards, define "prophet" in a similar manner.

This discussion you guys are having is pretty useless unless you define what each term means.

It would be like pulling teeth from him, so I just start and he will define it as the discussion progresses. As a matter fact my copy of his argument can be replaced by anything, it's just a placeholder as long as I include "besides Prophets"
Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: Link on April 20, 2017, 05:08:56 PM
1. I'm not discussing verses with Ulil-Amr or others, they been discussed already.

2. I'm not making a universal argument that all things have to be mentioned in Quran, I made a long explanation in the OP of why the premise is true. And I will try to make it simple. The issue of telling us there is a seal of Prophets is so fake Prophets or the religions claiming them while testifying to the Quran get paid no attention.  Or it's to emphasize on wisdom of God sealing Prophets. Whatever it is, in this scenario the role of leadership of Prophets and the issue of succession to a founding Messenger is been emphasized through out Quran, and so if it were to come to an end, the same wisdom of manifesting one implies manifesting the other (ie. Imammate coming to an end).

4. Prophet is simply one who receives information from God to be given to the people in a form a connecting scripture. A Messenger is a Prophet who has to convey the clear conveyance to all people and his revelation comes down to revive the whole message and extend to all levels of people. A Prophet that is not a Messenger receives a connecting scripture to be given to humanity but is not required to revive the whole message and do the clear conveyance. Rather he adds to the teachings and elaborates what has been founded in that society already. A non-Prophet Imam is a leader and guide from God that leads people by divine decree but doesn't receive information to be given to humanity from God in a form of scriptures like Prophets.

Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: GreatChineseFall on April 20, 2017, 09:45:05 PM
It's good to see you write short paragraphs. Please keep it that way.

1. I'm not discussing verses with Ulil-Amr or others, they been discussed already.

Neither am I, again I am just using it for you to reflect upon. And again I am asking, are you saying that if 1 and 2 are true, 3 can't possibly and logically be true?

2. I'm not making a universal argument that all things have to be mentioned in Quran, I made a long explanation in the OP of why the premise is true. And I will try to make it simple. The issue of telling us there is a seal of Prophets is so fake Prophets or the religions claiming them while testifying to the Quran get paid no attention.  Or it's to emphasize on wisdom of God sealing Prophets. Whatever it is, in this scenario the role of leadership of Prophets and the issue of succession to a founding Messenger is been emphasized through out Quran, and so if it were to come to an end, the same wisdom of manifesting one implies manifesting the other (ie. Imammate coming to an end).

It seems you don't get it, so I will respond again in likewise manner:

I'm not making a universal argument that all things have to be mentioned in Quran, I can give a long explanation of why the premise is true if you wish. And I will try to make it simple. The issue of telling us there are Prophets is to inform us how we can be guided and who we should follow so that we will be guided. Anyway, whatever it is, in this scenario the role of leadership of Prophets is been emphasized through out Quran, and so if it were to be used to guide humans by having a human source of emulation, the same wisdom of manifesting one implies manifesting the other (ie. Imams as a human source of emulation).

Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: Link on April 23, 2017, 11:40:01 PM
You are boring bro. I understand what you are saying, but I think you haven't understood what I said in the first place.

1.  To deny the conclusion, one premise has to be denied in either argument, because it's valid argument. The only premise that seems that can be denied in either of these to me is 3.

2. I think it's beyond clear if Quran didn't emphasis on leadership and guiding role of Prophets aside from revealing scriptures, and didn't emphasize to believe in such leaders after Mohammad, chosen ones who inherit the book, the family of the reminder and did not warn and caution on having envy towards them due to breaking our idols and heightening their believers that in all honesty in would be a book of falsehood let alone the fact it would as result show no purpose of revealing guidance in the past. It would be a book that contradicts its whole thesis and it's the whole emphasis. May God save us from misguidance and blindness. Obvious God has the best eloquence but the book must not contradict itself. Eloquence is not the main emphasis in Quran of why humans cannot bring a book like Quran. It says "bring a book having greater guidance then these two".

When you get tired of your urinated interpretations of Quran and splitting hairs with clear words from hadiths that designate Ahlulbayt, when you properly understand the reasoning Quran comes with to all humanity,  then you will know where I am coming from.

Until then, you don't understand me and I am really tired of every time I beat you guys at your chess games, all you do is shove all the pieces away and reset the conversation.

If you can't address the OP, do something else, having the last word hardly means anything.



Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: GreatChineseFall on April 24, 2017, 03:49:50 PM
You are boring bro. I understand what you are saying, but I think you haven't understood what I said in the first place.
I am not here to entertain you and I don't think you have yet understood me
1.  To deny the conclusion, one premise has to be denied in either argument, because it's valid argument. The only premise that seems that can be denied in either of these to me is 3.
Has it occurred to you that the conclusion doesn't even necessarily follow from your premises? The fact that your understanding of logic is so poor, speaks volumens and I have no intention whatsoever to respond to it. (And you are wrong, 3 is not the only problem)




... chosen ones who inherit the book ...
Chosen to inherit the Book? Right, I remember a discussion on ShiaChat with you about the verse:
Quote
Sahih International
Then we caused to inherit the Book those We have chosen of Our servants; and among them is he who wrongs himself, and among them is he who is moderate, and among them is he who is foremost in good deeds by permission of Allah. That [inheritance] is what is the great bounty.
And you wanted to pass it off as if those who wrong themselves are not those who inherit the Book but the servants of Allah in general. Absolutely ridiculous. And then you complain about people not taking you seriously?





When you get tired of your urinated interpretations of Quran and splitting hairs with clear words from hadiths that designate Ahlulbayt, when you properly understand the reasoning Quran comes with to all humanity,  then you will know where I am coming from.
What you don't understand or are unwilling to understand is no matter how you put it, you essentially don't believe Prophethood ended. So you invent terms that allow you to circumvent the issue, but essentially that's what you arrive at. Allah emphasized leadership? A non-Prophet Imam who receives no information from God, but yet he is "from God" and leads by "divine decree"? What do you actually mean? Why not a non-Prophet Guide? Or a non-Prophet Warner?
Quote
1. There is wisdom in God telling us there are no more Prophets after Mohammad.
2. By the same clear wisdom that God told us to for there to be no more Prophets would apply to telling us there are no more divinely chosen guides after Mohammad that succeed him if there was no more divinely chosen guides to succeed Mohammad's position.
3. God didn't tell us there are no more divinely chosen guides to succeed Mohammad's position.
4. Therefore there are divinely chosen guides after Mohammad who succeed him.
Quote
1. There is wisdom in God telling us there are no more Prophets after Mohammad.
2. By the same clear wisdom that God told us to for there to be no more Prophets would apply to telling us there are no more divinely chosen warners after Mohammad that succeed him if there was no more divinely chosen warners to succeed Mohammad's position.
3. God didn't tell us there are no more divinely chosen warners to succeed Mohammad's position.
4. Therefore there are divinely chosen leaders after Mohammad who succeed him.
Of course you will say that is applicable too, because an Imam encompasses all of that. Basically there is no difference between an Imam and a Prophet except that an Imam "receives no information from God", yet at the same time somehow he is "from God" and leads "by divine decree" whatever that means. While we're at it, why not define a divinely chosen messenger as well? Let's change your definitions a bit:
Quote
Prophet is simply one who receives information from God to be given to the people in a form a connecting scripture. A Messenger is a Prophet who has to convey the clear conveyance to all people and his revelation comes down to revive the whole message and extend to all levels of people. A Prophet that is not a Messenger receives a connecting scripture to be given to humanity but is not required to revive the whole message and do the clear conveyance. Rather he adds to the teachings and elaborates what has been founded in that society already. A non-Prophet Imam is a leader and guide from God that leads people by divine decree but doesn't receive information to be given to humanity from God in a form of scriptures like Prophets.
into:
Quote
Prophet is simply one who receives information from God to be given to the people in a form a connecting scripture. A non-Prophet Messenger is a person who has to convey the clear conveyance to all people and revives the whole message that a previous Prophet-Messenger has received and extends to all levels of people while adding to the teachings and elaborates what has been founded in that society already. A non-Prophet Imam is a leader and guide from God that leads people by divine decree but doesn't receive information to be given to humanity from God in a form of scriptures like Prophets.
and then we can simply say:
Quote
1. There is wisdom in God telling us there are no more Prophets after Mohammad.
2. By the same clear wisdom that God told us to for there to be no more Prophets would apply to telling us there are no more divinely chosen messengers after Mohammad that succeed him if there was no more divinely chosen messengers to succeed Mohammad's position.
3. God didn't tell us there are no more divinely chosen messengers to succeed Mohammad's position.
4. Therefore there are divinely chosen messengers after Mohammad who succeed him.
You simply don't get it, do you? What is the difference between a Messenger leading a nation who receives information from God through an infallible angle and an Imam leading a nation who receives teachings (essentially information from God) through another infallible human being, either a Messenger or another Imam? They both receive information from God, they both receive it from an infallible one, they both understand it perfectly, do you really think that makes a difference? Is that what the message is?

And if the last Messenger or Prophet is going to appoint people anyway, how is it wisdom to end Prophethood "so that other people don't claim Prophethood"? Who cares what other people claim, it has been made clear that there is appointment anyway. Why not just say "dont follow any Prophet who is not appointed because Prophethood will from now on only continue through appointment and not other methods." That way we're at least not deprived from "information from God" and Prophethood can still continue.

As I said, I will not bother to answer your poor attempt, it's sad that you can misguide yourself so badly. It's your loss if you don't understand.





Until then, you don't understand me and I am really tired of every time I beat you guys at your chess games, all you do is shove all the pieces away and reset the conversation.
We are really tired of you trying to play chess games on a checkers board and on top of that "defining" every black piece as a queen and every white piece as a pawn, thinking that you beat anyone.
Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: Link on April 25, 2017, 07:14:53 PM
@ Abu Muhammad, Do you now see why I made the argument that Jesus would not be returning as a Prophet but a proof and authority? You can see from the post above, it's pretty common that Sunnis equate sealing of Prophethood with sealing divine leadership with no proof and despite their hadiths about Jesus returning and Quran showing so implying otherwise and despite the Mahdi being said to be God's Caliph in hadiths.

May God curse those who read the Quran through Satanic urinated lens and may he bless those who hear and see it through the blessed eyes meant to be seen by.

Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: Rationalist on April 26, 2017, 01:19:06 AM
@ Abu Muhammad, Do you now see why I made the argument that Jesus would not be returning as a Prophet but a proof and authority? You can see from the post above, it's pretty common that Sunnis equate sealing of Prophethood with sealing divine leadership with no proof and despite their hadiths about Jesus returning and Quran showing so implying otherwise and despite the Mahdi being said to be God's Caliph in hadiths.


There are hadith which say Prophet Isa (as) will be the Calipah too.
Title: Re: The belief in Prophets.
Post by: Abu Muhammad on May 19, 2017, 03:05:06 AM
Then you are attacking the conclusion and not the argument.

Since you believe Prophets had the role of leadership, it should have said that leadership would come to end if it were.

In other were words it should have been clear there would be no chosen leaders after Mohammad that succeed him.  You can't say there is no such thing as chosen leaders in Quran, because that was a primary role Prophets had.

Please don't attack the conclusion or anything related to the conclusion but address the actual argument.


Attacking the conclusion? Your conclusion was point no. 4:


4. Therefore there are divinely chosen leaders after Mohammad who succeed him.


while I was arguing your point no.2:


2. By the same clear wisdom that God told us to for there to be no more Prophets would apply to telling us there are no more divinely chosen leaders after Mohammad that succeed him if there was no more divinely chosen leaders to succeed Mohammad's position.