The belief in Prophets.

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The Prophets  had many aspects in their mission, the Messengerhood (which not all Prophets had) which is conveying the clear message from God, and Giving revelation/news from God (relating revelation from God), and interpreting the revelation/book/scriptures, emphasizing on the true interpretation of their predecessor, providing clear proofs, and leadership which had the followings aspects: 1. The right to govern humanity (humanity was required to believe in them and help them achieve the right to govern) 2. Exemplifying the virtues from God's light in actions that people see outwardly. 3. Commanding believers and people required to obey them and believe in them. 4. Manifest the inward path and unseen path through unseen help and guiding company by God's command.

They never came alone, but always, the founder was succeeded by other Captains who sail the boat of God's religion and steer people in the right course, in the course of God's Name.

They were the rope from God to humans because they were the means to know the revelation truly and their predecessor's revelations were to be connected to their interpretation and their revelations.

However, when thought about, the plan to put end to revelations and hence Prophethood, cannot be to stop this way of guidance, but rather to perfect it.

That is if God is going to put end to revelations, it doesn't do away with the other roles Prophets had, which is where the Imams carry on their other roles.

The Quran shows Prophets aside from revealing revelations were kings to be obeyed by God's permission and they were leaders who guided by God's command, and they were servants of God that prayed to be leaders of the pious, and who do not need to be given mansions to be honored, but rather their true reward is in the next world.

The end of Prophethood meaning the end of divine leadership is an unproven assertion.

If God wanted to emphasize that there were no more chosen leaders after Mohammad, he should have explicitly said that. But all Muslims believe in the return of Jesus which is a divine authority upon humanity and believe in the Mahdi which is proven to be guided and hence obligatory to be followed. The obligation to follow him means he is God's ruler and representative.

Given this background in Quran, this background of the role of Prophets aside from being "news givers" from God, who were humans sent with information from God to be revealed to humanity,  they obviously had these other important roles, given this background of their roles, why assume the Ulil-Amr are not meant in the sense of the divine authority of the Prophets.

Like Hani always says "the family of Abraham's authority" is different because they are Prophets, but how else would God emphasize on the same authority of the Prophets but without them being sent with information to convey to humanity from God?

Why not assume they take on all the other roles Prophets had aside from that one?  Without explicitly mentioning an end to witnesses and leaders and guides of humanity, why assume it came to an end with Mohammad?

Why assume the family of Mohammad is other that of chosen ones, like chosen families of Prophets were of the past?

Why not take the position of Aeron to Moses position for Ali to Mohammad, as is, and just leave out the Prophethood part?

[muslim720]

They never came alone, but always, the founder was succeeded by other Captains who sail the boat of God's religion and steer people in the right course, in the course of God's Name.

Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,
What are you on?  I do not even know the starting point from where (in fact, if at all necessary) to engage with you.  You are harping on the term, "Captain".  Others, like yourself, have coined, "Prince of ____" for your Imams (ra), "Lady" for Fatima (ra), on and on.  Do you even read the rubbish you post?  If it was an elastic band, never mind its strength, it would have snapped by now given your level of incoherent extrapolation.

Explaining Prophets (asws) as "leaders", you then tell us that we need "captains".  This is Islam you are playing with; this is not football that you need captains.

The end of Prophethood meaning the end of divine leadership is an unproven assertion.

The Qur'an (unless you are quasi-Qadiani) states that prophethood would end with the "Seal of Prophets" (saw).  The Prophet (saw) told your "captain" that he to him is like Haroon (asws) was to Musa (asws) "except there is no Prophet after me”.  What do you smoke that leads you to such delusion and denial?

If God wanted to emphasize that there were no more chosen leaders after Mohammad, he should have explicitly said that.

He (swt) did; just never sat well with you.

But all Muslims believe in the return of Jesus which is a divine authority upon humanity and believe in the Mahdi which is proven to be guided and hence obligatory to be followed.

Isa (asws) and Mahdi (as) will not bring anything new; they will set things right.  You have confused (new) revelation with re-establishing order.  Irrespective of which way you cut it, where is your current captain when the team is in utter ruins?  Oh right, he is like the sun on a cloudy.....STHU!

Invest in a pair of tweezers for your caterpillar eyebrows; I see your eyebrows and I automatically know that verbal diarrhea is to follow.

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Salam

1. What is meant by "Captain" is not that of a team captain, but that of a navigator, a Captain of a ship.  The word in Quran is used in conjugation with what it has said about parables of "ships".  The ship the Captains risen from God sail, is the one that is by God's Name in it's steering and anchoring.

2.  I don't see proof that Prophethood and divine leadership mean the exact same thing. Quite the opposite.

3.  You said that Al-Mahdi and Jesus won't be bringing a new revelation we agree. But they are still taking on position of authority and leadership. So what is it, is it that there is no more divine leadership or there is? The point is I don't equate Nubuwa with divine Leadership, rather I say an essential role that Prophets had was Imammate, while you just contradicted yourself!

[muslim720]

Salam

1. What is meant by "Captain" is not that of a team captain, but that of a navigator, a Captain of a ship.  The word in Quran is used in conjugation with what it has said about parables of "ships".  The ship the Captains risen from God sail, is the one that is by God's Name in it's steering and anchoring.

2.  I don't see proof that Prophethood and divine leadership mean the exact same thing. Quite the opposite.

3.  You said that Al-Mahdi and Jesus won't be bringing a new revelation we agree. But they are still taking on position of authority and leadership. So what is it, is it that there is no more divine leadership or there is? The point is I don't equate Nubuwa with divine Leadership, rather I say an essential role that Prophets had was Imammate, while you just contradicted yourself!

1.  The Qur'an also gives other parables.  Should we go around linking these parables to individuals and religious concepts?  The purpose of the parable is to drive a point home, not to give you the "blank check" authority to put on a belief gymnastics display.

2.  I really think you are free to think whatever but you have no point.  Imamat is still as innovated (and an alien concept to the Islam taught by the Prophet [saw]) as it was before your post all the way back to its inception.

3.  If you understood Mahdi (as) like he should be, you wouldn't have made that comment.  Mahdi (as) will be an upright leader who will establish justice.  I did not contradict myself because I clearly stated that you have confused re-establishing order with (new) revelation.  Lastly, we have proof for (our version of) Mahdi (as) from the lips of the Prophet (saw).  Your "captaincy" concept falls flat; it is like the team is waiting and the "captain" is busy hiding somewhere.  Certainly a winning game plan you have there.  Go team!

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1.  The Qur'an also gives other parables.  Should we go around linking these parables to individuals and religious concepts?  The purpose of the parable is to drive a point home, not to give you the "blank check" authority to put on a belief gymnastics display.

Every parable should be given it's due, including the issue of ship and Captain with respect to religion, both words are used in Quran.  The Quran also uses the word "gate" with respect to the covenant with chosen guides and so it's appropriate to use its parables. It also uses the word "way/course" with respect to his chosen ones so there is nothing wrong with using what it emphasized on to prove to humanity the need of God's chosen ones to guide them.

In the case of navigator recall the just city and the need of a just navigator who sees the light as it's meant to be seen as proven and explained by Socrates!

2.  I really think you are free to think whatever but you have no point.  Imamat is still as innovated (and an alien concept to the Islam taught by the Prophet [saw]) as it was before your post all the way back to its inception.

On the contrary, Quran emphasized on leadership of the Prophets and that role they had and emphasized that we have such leaders with such leadership role except they are not Prophets.

3.  If you understood Mahdi (as) like he should be, you wouldn't have made that comment.  Mahdi (as) will be an upright leader who will establish justice.  I did not contradict myself because I clearly stated that you have confused re-establishing order with (new) revelation.  Lastly, we have proof for (our version of) Mahdi (as) from the lips of the Prophet (saw).  Your "captaincy" concept falls flat; it is like the team is waiting and the "captain" is busy hiding somewhere.  Certainly a winning game plan you have there.  Go team!

What about Jesus, does his divine leadership and authority go away? Regardless if it's to re-establish order or more than that, the point is you acknowledge leadership that is chosen by God after Mohammad at least in the case of Jesus (we know you guys get allergic to accepting Imam Mahdi as chosen by God even though by definition he is).

The point is if you define Prophethood as chosen leadership by God, then it continues after Mohammad by your definition.

[muslim720]

In the case of navigator recall the just city and the need of a just navigator who sees the light as it's meant to be seen as proven and explained by Socrates!

Clearly says a lot - though very little in terms of quality - when you rely on Socrates to understand the so-called Islamic foundations which you claim to be rooted in the Qur'an.  Have you ever spared a moment to think why among all your usool-e-deen, there is only one you cannot prove using one unambiguous Qur'anic verse?

What about Jesus, does his divine leadership and authority go away? Regardless if it's to re-establish order or more than that, the point is you acknowledge leadership that is chosen by God after Mohammad at least in the case of Jesus (we know you guys get allergic to accepting Imam Mahdi as chosen by God even though by definition he is).

Imam Mahdi (as) is just as chosen by Allah (swt) as Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman (may Allah be pleased with them) were chosen as the first three Caliphs.  By extension of that definition, you are chosen to drive us nuts with your nonsense while I am chosen to confront it.

Even if we accept that leadership is chosen by Allah (swt) after Muhammad (saw), it is not problematic to explain Imam Mahdi (as) because he was prophesied.  Nothing of that sort exists for your "captains".  Hence, irrespective of how we define the word "chosen" or even if we go by your paradigm, you have no point.  The coming of Imam Mahdi (as) was announced; the captaincy of your absent captain was not.

Having said all that, you might want to spend some time with Qadianis.  You will find them very open to your winded posts and arguments.  However, do not be offended if they show you an image of an one-eyed bandit and tell you that he was your 12th captain.

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Can you address what I said about Isa (as)?

We know you guys are allergic to Imam Mahdi, but you will say that Jesus leadership is not divine either?

If not, then my point that divine leadership doesn't mean Prophethood stands.

[muslim720]

Can you address what I said about Isa (as)?

The second-coming of Isa (asws), as mentioned earlier, has been prophesied.  That does nothing for you and Imamat because of the fundamental difference between something being prophesied and something being innovated.  Except by verbal gymnastics and desperate extrapolation, both of which are the underlying principles of each and every post of yours, you can never amalgamate those two concepts.

We know you guys are allergic to Imam Mahdi

Why would we be allergic to Imam Mahdi (as)?  Our (concept of) Imam Mahdi (as) comes is affirmed by Prophetic narrations.  Your Imam Mahdi is a byproduct of imagination and innovated narrations.

If not, then my point that divine leadership doesn't mean Prophethood stands.

If you type "Divine Leadership in Qur'an" in Google, almost all the search results (on the first page at least) refer to Shia and Ahmadi websites.  That, in of itself, says a lot about your semantics such as "divine leadership", "captains", "lady Fatima".....till the end of your list of nonsense.

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Still ignoring my point.

[Abu Muhammad]

What about Jesus, does his divine leadership and authority go away? Regardless if it's to re-establish order or more than that, the point is you acknowledge leadership that is chosen by God after Mohammad at least in the case of Jesus (we know you guys get allergic to accepting Imam Mahdi as chosen by God even though by definition he is).

The point is if you define Prophethood as chosen leadership by God, then it continues after Mohammad by your definition.

Do you think when we Sunnis accepted the leadership of Jesus a.s. towards the end of time, the acceptance is the same as the concept of imamah as understood by Twelvers?

[mhmd]

Can you address what I said about Isa (as)?

We know you guys are allergic to Imam Mahdi, but you will say that Jesus leadership is not divine either?

If not, then my point that divine leadership doesn't mean Prophethood stands.

Jesus and Mahdi are prophesied. For Muslims, that's all we need to know.  The esoteric details of their stations aren't given and, indeed, are irrelevant except to those desperate to justify cultural corruptions for which neither authority nor evidence has been sent down.

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I'm using it as a counter to the claim that Seal of Prophets means no more divine leadership or authority after Mohammad.

[Rationalist]

I'm using it as a counter to the claim that Seal of Prophets means no more divine leadership or authority after Mohammad.

if the 12th Imam is the seal of Waliyah without a successor then why can't the concept concept apply for Prophethood?

[Abu Muhammad]

I'm using it as a counter to the claim that Seal of Prophets means no more divine leadership or authority after Mohammad.

Since when 'seal of prophets' is talking about divine leadership or authority after Muhammad s.a.w.? You are doing the 'twisting business' again, as usual.

Seal of prophets means no more new prophets after Muhammad s.a.w. Isa a.s. is not a new prophet. Every muslim knows that he a.s. was a prophet before Muhammad s.a.w. as he a.s. is clearly mentioned in the Quran as the prophet of the past. The only thing is that he lives a very long life and will die after the demise of Muhammad s.a.w.

You know what. You are arguing against something that we ourselves not using it as an argument against you.

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I'm using it as a counter to the claim that Seal of Prophets means no more divine leadership or authority after Mohammad.

Since when 'seal of prophets' is talking about divine leadership or authority after Muhammad s.a.w.? You are doing the 'twisting business' again, as usual.

Seal of prophets means no more new prophets after Muhammad s.a.w. Isa a.s. is not a new prophet. Every muslim knows that he a.s. was a prophet before Muhammad s.a.w. as he a.s. is clearly mentioned in the Quran as the prophet of the past. The only thing is that he lives a very long life and will die after the demise of Muhammad s.a.w.

You know what. You are arguing against something that we ourselves not using it as an argument against you.

Look at the posts that followed my post. It was saying God clearly clarified there would be no chosen leaders after Mohammad with the Seal of Prophets verse. 

In fact I think most Sunnis I meet in real life use the notion of God sealing Prophets to imply there is no more chosen leaders after Mohammad.

Going back to the OP, just like Prophethood is clarified to end if it does end, I argue Imammate if it were to end, must be clarified to end in Quran or if that there is no succession of leaders after Mohammad, it would be clarified just as the Seal of Prophets were to be clarified.

For example, if I say "don't eat any grapefruits for it may interfere with your medications", although oranges and other fruits resemble grapefruit in many ways,  it is in fact good for me to eat fruits and oranges. Oranges maybe very similar in many ways, but it doesn't mean they are bad.

The specific reason of ending Prophethood has to do with Prophethood and that God doesn't want us to give a serious consideration to people who claim the Quran is true but that they are Prophets as well.

It eliminates that process and exposes all such false claimants who testify to Quran through mouth but then seek to make it as if there are Prophets.

Since Quran has mentioned benefit of leaders and guides and divinely anointed Kings, then my no means, does this imply we should not give serious consideration to the claim there are leaders and divinely chosen successors.  Succession after a founder has been emphasized.

If it was bad to give serious consideration to that,  in the same way that it refuted Prophethood claims who testify to the Quran, it should of refuted all the other roles of his chosen ones to have stopped after Mohammad.

But we see Quran in fact confirms that all people of the book will believe in Jesus before his death, and so if Jesus were the only divinely chosen leader, it would have to emphasized and clarified that.

It would have to emphasize that are no successors to Mohammad to lead us.

The same wisdom of ending Prophethood doesn't necessarily apply to ending leadership. In fact perfecting leadership and uniting people on the final successor to Mohammad may very well be the reason for sealing revelation, that it is maybe it's to perfect the issue of Leadership and authority of God through his chosen ones on humanity.

If it didn't want us to give serious consideration to that, it should of clarified there is no such chosen leaders to succeed Mohammad....as it makes no sense to clarify it for Prophethood but not chosen leadership and succession to the Captaincy of the ship of salvation!

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance!

[Abu Muhammad]

Look at the posts that followed my post. It was saying God clearly clarified there would be no chosen leaders after Mohammad with the Seal of Prophets verse. 

Could you show me which post were you referring to?

In fact I think most Sunnis I meet in real life use the notion of God sealing Prophets to imply there is no more chosen leaders after Mohammad.

There is no more chosen leaders after Muhammad s.a.w. with the quality of prophets (not for Isa a.s. since he was a prophet even before the coming of Muhammad s.a.w.).

Mahdi will come at the end of time but he is just a good normal guy.

Going back to the OP, just like Prophethood is clarified to end if it does end, I argue Imammate if it were to end, must be clarified to end in Quran or if that there is no succession of leaders after Mohammad, it would be clarified just as the Seal of Prophets were to be clarified.

You need to prove first that there is such things as imamat in the Quran (which Twelvers has clearly failed to decisively prove). Otherwise, why would Allah s.w.t. end something that hasn't been mentioned in the Quran? Simply doesn't make sense.

The specific reason of ending Prophethood has to do with Prophethood and that God doesn't want us to give a serious consideration to people who claim the Quran is true but that they are Prophets as well.

It eliminates that process and exposes all such false claimants who testify to Quran through mouth but then seek to make it as if there are Prophets.

Are you sure of this? Then provide evidence from the Quran and hadith. Otherwise, all I can say it came from your whims and desires.

Since Quran has mentioned benefit of leaders and guides and divinely anointed Kings, then my no means, does this imply we should not give serious consideration to the claim there are leaders and divinely chosen successors.  Succession after a founder has been emphasized.

If it was bad to give serious consideration to that,  in the same way that it refuted Prophethood claims who testify to the Quran, it should of refuted all the other roles of his chosen ones to have stopped after Mohammad.

Ahhh… what a verbal gymnastic! Just after giving SPECIFIC reason for ending of prophethood that "God doesn't want us to give a serious consideration to people who claim the Quran is true but that they are Prophets as well" and "eliminates that process and exposes all such false claimants who testify to Quran through mouth but then seek to make it as if there are Prophets", you make exception for your so-called divine leaders. BRAVO!

But we see Quran in fact confirms that all people of the book will believe in Jesus before his death, and so if Jesus were the only divinely chosen leader, it would have to emphasized and clarified that.

It would have to emphasize that are no successors to Mohammad to lead us.

The same wisdom of ending Prophethood doesn't necessarily apply to ending leadership. In fact perfecting leadership and uniting people on the final successor to Mohammad may very well be the reason for sealing revelation, that it is maybe it's to perfect the issue of Leadership and authority of God through his chosen ones on humanity.

If it didn't want us to give serious consideration to that, it should of clarified there is no such chosen leaders to succeed Mohammad....as it makes no sense to clarify it for Prophethood but not chosen leadership and succession to the Captaincy of the ship of salvation!

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance!

You know what. Isa a.s.'s second coming and Mahdi are just a sign of end of time as mentioned in hadith that qiamah will not happen until these two men coming and bring justice to the world.If you were happened to live during that time, be with them. If you were not, don't bother them. Bother about your own 'end of time' i.e. death…

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1. There is wisdom in God telling us there are no more Prophets after Mohammad.
2. By the same clear wisdom that God told us to for there to be no more Prophets would apply to telling us there are no more divinely chosen leaders after Mohammad that succeed him if there was no more divinely chosen leaders to succeed Mohammad's position.
3. God didn't tell us there are no more divinely chosen leaders to succeed Mohammad's position.
4. Therefore there are divinely chosen leaders after Mohammad who succeed him.

Which premise is disputed here?

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If God wanted to emphasize that there were no more chosen leaders after Mohammad, he should have explicitly said that.

He (swt) did; just never sat well with you.

See...and look at other posts.

[Abu Muhammad]

1. There is wisdom in God telling us there are no more Prophets after Mohammad.
2. By the same clear wisdom that God told us to for there to be no more Prophets would apply to telling us there are no more divinely chosen leaders after Mohammad that succeed him if there was no more divinely chosen leaders to succeed Mohammad's position.
3. God didn't tell us there are no more divinely chosen leaders to succeed Mohammad's position.
4. Therefore there are divinely chosen leaders after Mohammad who succeed him.

Which premise is disputed here?

There were no mentioned of following the so-called 'chosen leaders' after Muhammad s.a.w. in the Quran in the first place. So, how could Allah s.w.t. negate something that he didn't instruct in the Quran?

There were so much aql in your writing and no naql (Quran & hadith). You should be the follower of Socrates, Plato and all those Greek philosophers instead of Muhammad s.a.w.

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1. There is wisdom in God telling us there are no more Prophets after Mohammad.
2. By the same clear wisdom that God told us to for there to be no more Prophets would apply to telling us there are no more divinely chosen leaders after Mohammad that succeed him if there was no more divinely chosen leaders to succeed Mohammad's position.
3. God didn't tell us there are no more divinely chosen leaders to succeed Mohammad's position.
4. Therefore there are divinely chosen leaders after Mohammad who succeed him.

Which premise is disputed here?

There were no mentioned of following the so-called 'chosen leaders' after Muhammad s.a.w. in the Quran in the first place. So, how could Allah s.w.t. negate something that he didn't instruct in the Quran?

There were so much aql in your writing and no naql (Quran & hadith). You should be the follower of Socrates, Plato and all those Greek philosophers instead of Muhammad s.a.w.

Which premise is disputed?

 What you say is another disputed thing and it's wrong to attack the conclusion instead of the argument.... There is also no point of going off-topic. If you wish to discuss the verses I believe are about leadership, you can do so, in their respective threads.

Or we can have a one on one debate about it. But this thread is making a different argument.

If you add the premise "if Imammate was true, it would be in Quran", then the argument that you quoted but didn't address would prove it is in the Quran.

Quran shows Prophet aside from revealing revelation had chosen leadership roles! So it's mentioned. So if leadership through chosen ones was to end, God should clarify that.