TwelverShia.net Forum
Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Imamah-Ghaybah => Topic started by: Ebn Hussein on January 08, 2015, 04:28:04 AM
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This is one of the biggest lies in the history of mankind and literally all evidences from Islamic sources speak against it starting from the Sirah to mass narrated narrations (if you doubt all of them then you can go ahead and doubt the Qur'an since it was narrated by the very same NON-INFALLIBLE people).
Historical accounts testify that the Prophet (SAWS) sent non-infallibles to lands as far away as Yemen, to do what? To sell Shia praying-pucks (aka Turbah)?! No, rather to teach them the pillar of Islam itself (Tawhid) as we can see in the Hadith of Mu'adh Ibn Jabal (a non-infallible) who was sent in the name of the Prophet (infallible) to teach the people the Deen (the core of the Deen):
The people of Yemen took the Deen from (at least) two fallibles who obviously narrated what they knew from the last infallible of this Ummah (the Prophet) i.e. exactly what the Ahl Al-Sunnah do when they narrate hadith
Narrated Ibn Abbas (Hashimi from the Ahl Al-Bayt himself):
When the Prophet sent Muadh to Yemen, he said to him, "You are going to a nation from the people of the Scripture, so let the first thing to which you will invite them, be the Tauhid of Allah. If they learn that, tell them that Allah has enjoined on them, five prayers to be offered in one day and one night. And if they pray, tell them that Allah has enjoined on them Zakat of their properties and it is to be taken from the rich among them and given to the poor. And if they agree to that, then take from them Zakat but avoid the best property of the people."
(Sahih of Imam Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 469)
^Note how the Prophet (as in ANY other hadith) did not mention anything about following 12 particular individuals from Ali's ofspring, yet he trusts a non-infallible (who is amongst the Sahaba who gave bay3a to Abu Bakr) to teach the people about Tawhid and Islam.
Another non-infallible (heck not even from the Bani Hashim!) who was sent to his homeland to teach the people about Islam is Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari (whom the Rafidah hate with passion, because of the fitna he was involved against Ali):
Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ashari:
Allah's Apostle sent me (as a governor) to the land of my people ... [long hadith]
(Sahih of Imam Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 633)
And there are other such instances where the Prophet (SAWS) sent non-infallibles (although Ali is alive and has super powers acc. to Shias and can be at any place and any time acc. to Shias) to teach the people Islam and the Qur'an.
Now here is the question: How can the Prophet (SAWS) do such a thing if Twelver Shiism claims that only an infallible understands the Qur'an? How could those non-infallibles possibily explain Islam, Tawheed and the Qur'an to the people if they themselves were not just non-infallibles but in fact future apostates such as:
Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari who is a Nasibi Kafir apostate acc. to Twelver Shiism. Their stance is well known on him
Mu'adh Ibn Jabal who he has been promised hell according to this world famous Shia "Center of Belief researches" websites, based on their narrations that say that Mu'adh was promised Hell for chosing Abu Bakr and Omar (i.e. giving them Bay3ah) over Ali: http://www.aqaed.com/faq/6294/
The answer of course is that they were neither apostates or Nasibis nor does Islam require that only an infallible explains the Qur'an and this as per the noble Qur'an itself:
وانزلنا اليك الذكر لتبين للناس ما نزل اليهم
"We have revealed upon you the Zikr , so that you make clear to the people what we have revealed for them..." (Surah An-nahl ,Chapt 16 verse 44)
Also:
لقد من الله على المؤمنين اذ بعث فيهم رسولا من انفسهم يتلوا عليهم ايته ويزكيهم ويعلمهم الكتب والحكمة.
"Verily , Allah favoured the believers when he raised a messenger amongst them. He recites his verses upon them and purifies them and teaches them the book and wisdom..."
Surah Aale-Imran , Chapt 3 verse 164
THEM! His companions. If we were to be as ignorant as the Shias then we would claim that the companions are infallible since Allah is PURIFYING them. In any case, they are being TAUGHT and obviously they will teach future generations (and not just "12 Imams" who altogether live less than 250 years, hence the Shia Ummah itself is without an infallible guide for over 1200 years!).
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I hope nobody comes up with the 1001 times repeated Thaqlayn or twelve rulers/caliphs (not house dwelling so called Imams) shubhah. This has been answered a thousand times and if you like we can prove the flaw and weakness of the Rafidah in regards to these narrations as well.
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Check the following brothers and sisters and ponder over it, major Sahabah used to give Fatawa and teach after the demise of our beloved one (صل الله عليه و على آله و سلم), none of them heard about the fairy-tale of Imamah/Wilayah and to take the Deen from 12 infallibles (starting with Ali) only, NONE, not even the Bani Hashims themselves like Ibn ABBAS (who was a student of Abu Hurairah!!!):
THE SAHABAH WHO GAVE FATAWA DURING THE PROPHET'S LIFETIME
Abu Bakr, 'Uthmtan, 'Ali, 'Abd al Rahman ibn 'Awf, Abd Allah ibn Mas'ud, Ubay ibn Kab, Mu'adh ibn Jabal, Ammar ibn Yasir, Hudhayfah ibn al Yaman, Zayd ibn Thabit, Abu al Darda, Abu Musa al Ash'ari and Salman al Farisi, may Allah be pleased with them.
Some Sahabah gave more Fatawa than others. Those who gave the most Fatawa were: 'Aishah Umm al Mu'minin (Ahl Al-Bait), 'Umar ibn al Khattab and his son Abd Allah, 'Ali ibn Abu Talib (Ahl Al-Bait), Abd Allah ibn Abbas (Ahl Al-Bait) and Zayd ibn Thabit. The Fatawa given by any one of these six would fill a great volume.
For example, Abu Bakr Muhammad ibn Musa ibn Ya'qub ibn al Khalifah Ma'mun collected the Fatawa of Ibn Abbas in twenty volumes.Those from whom a lesser number of Fatawa were narrated are: Umm Salmah Umm al Mu'minin, Anas ibn Malik, Abu Sa'id al Khudri, Abu Hurayrah, 'Uthman ibn 'Affan, Abd Allah ibn Amr ibn al 'As, 'Abd Allah ibn Zubayr, Abu Musa al Ash'ari, Sa'd ibn Abu Waqqas, Salman al Farisi, Jabir ibn Abd Allah, Mu'adh ibn Jabal and Abu Bakr al Siddiq. The Fatawa of each of these thirteen would fill only a small part of a book.To this list can be added Talhah, al Zubayr, 'Abd al Rahman ibn Awf, 'Imra-n ibn Husayn, Abu Bakrah, 'Ubadah ibn al Samit and Mu'awiyah ibn Abu Sufyan. The rest gave only a few Fatawa, and only one or two, in some instances more, have been transmitted from any of them. Their Fatawa could be collected into a small volume, but only after much research and sifting through ...
complete article >>> http://www.islambasics.com/view.php?bkID=166&chapter=2
Amongst the Sahaba who were known to narrate very few hadith are actually Abu Bakr, Omar and Othman and hence in some of the major Sunni books Ali has narrated more hadith than the khulafa' before him (a fact many Shias and even Sunnis don't know):
http://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/narrations-from-ahl-albayt-present-in-books-the-main-books-of-ahlesunnah/
Ali Ibn Abi Talib for instances of the Ahl Al-Bayt narrated 79 (1.11%) of the hadith in Bukhari (whereas Omar Ibn Al-Khattab only narrated 50 i.e. 0.71%). Ibn Abbas (also from the Bani Hashim) narrated 700 (9.9%). Jafar as-Sadiq (RA) has more narrations in Sahih Muslim than Abubakr (RA). Just check the excellent article above.
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Well it's crystal clear that what ever suits your ideology and mind set, you will put that forward and stick to it.
And you've said it yourself that you don't want it refuted and challenged. You're trying hard to push your ideology and force it on others.
Put something forward with an open mind and don't be afraid to be challenged over it.
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Dear audience/viewers, if someone believes that the Quran is infallible and the one it was revealed upon is infallible, so therefore the one who we take Quran and Sunnah from after the demise of the Prophet (pbuh) should also be infallible, then good luck to them.
Now if someone believes, just like my dear brother Ebn Hussein, that one should take Quran and Sunnah from who ever, how ever and what ever way they came along after the demise of the Prophet (pbuh) and then we will pick and choose at will who we accept and whp we reject then, good luck to them as well.
All I would like to see is a bit of honesty rather than double standards. "We believe in this" but they're questioned you have its and buts.
If you believe in consensus, if you believe in who ever is elected and accepted at that time by the vast majority then, there should be no double standards. There should be no excuses or any its and buts.
Yazeed ibne Muavia was sworn in and accepted as Khalifatul Muslimeen by the vast majority, by consensus, just as the other Khalifs.
Now either come out and be honest and accept him and by all means take Quran and Sunnah from him, regardless of his dispute with Hazrath Hussain (as) of baya. Or accept that there is something wrong with your ideology and myth about consensus and all the rest of it.
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Please do correct me if I'm wrong brother,
Imam Muhammad ibne Isma'il Al Bukhari (known as Imam Bukhari) was around the same time and generation as the 9th Shia Imam MUhammad Taqi (as).
How come Imam Bukhari spent all his life and time collecting narrations linking to the Prophet (pbuh) from here, there and every where but didn't bother to approach Hazrath Imam Muhammd Taqi (as)???
How come you don't have a single narration from this link to Prophet (pbuh), from this chain connecting to the Messenger (pbuh)???
Is this true or false??? Do we have narrations in Sehih Bukhari from this link to the Prophet (pbuh), from this chain connecting to the Messenger (pbuh)???
If no then why not??? If no then what does this tell us??? Please do correct me. Discuss, don't attack!
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Awesome stuff brother Ebn Hussein.
The companions (RA) are truly the greatest people after the Prophets (AS).
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Please do correct me if I'm wrong brother,
Imam Muhammad ibne Isma'il Al Bukhari (known as Imam Bukhari) was around the same time and generation as the 9th Shia Imam MUhammad Taqi (as).
How come Imam Bukhari spent all his life and time collecting narrations linking to the Prophet (pbuh) from here, there and every where but didn't bother to approach Hazrath Imam Muhammd Taqi (as) ???
How come you don't have a single narration from this link to Prophet (pbuh), from this chain connecting to the Messenger (pbuh) ???
Is this true or false??? Do we have narrations in Sehih Bukhari from this link to the Prophet (pbuh), from this chain connecting to the Messenger (pbuh) ???
If no then why not??? If no then what does this tell us??? Please do correct me. Discuss, don't attack!
Interesting question finally, are you ready for an interesting answer?
Because Muhammad al-Taqi was a nobody and I myself wouldn't have taken religion from him, he is a low level scholar if at all (assuming he's a scholar) and Imam al-Bukhari took religion from some of the best scholars alive.
Please don't compare the teachers of Bukhari to "Muhammad al-Taqi", none of the people of knowledge sought Muhammad al-Taqi nor did anyone travel to him to get knowledge, heck even the Shia barely narrated from him.
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Farid adds this question: Major Shia scholar Ibrahim bin Hashim al-Qummi who claimed to be a companion of "al-Taqi" and is known to narrate a lot of Hadith yet he chose to narrate from many other people other then al-Taqi, why is that? Why didn't he narrate from al-Taqi?
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Please do correct me if I'm wrong brother,
Imam Muhammad ibne Isma'il Al Bukhari (known as Imam Bukhari) was around the same time and generation as the 9th Shia Imam MUhammad Taqi (as).
How come Imam Bukhari spent all his life and time collecting narrations linking to the Prophet (pbuh) from here, there and every where but didn't bother to approach Hazrath Imam Muhammd Taqi (as) ???
How come you don't have a single narration from this link to Prophet (pbuh), from this chain connecting to the Messenger (pbuh) ???
Is this true or false??? Do we have narrations in Sehih Bukhari from this link to the Prophet (pbuh), from this chain connecting to the Messenger (pbuh) ???
If no then why not??? If no then what does this tell us??? Please do correct me. Discuss, don't attack!
Interesting question finally, are you ready for an interesting answer?
Because Muhammad al-Taqi was a nobody and I myself wouldn't have taken religion from him, he is a low level scholar if at all (assuming he's a scholar) and Imam al-Bukhari took religion from some of the best scholars alive.
Please don't compare the teachers of Bukhari to "Muhammad al-Taqi", none of the people of knowledge sought Muhammad al-Taqi nor did anyone travel to him to get knowledge, heck even the Shia barely narrated from him.
And, those best scholars were generally the companions of the Prophet (SAW) or their successors/students known as Tabi'un.
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Please do correct me if I'm wrong brother,
Imam Muhammad ibne Isma'il Al Bukhari (known as Imam Bukhari) was around the same time and generation as the 9th Shia Imam MUhammad Taqi (as).
How come Imam Bukhari spent all his life and time collecting narrations linking to the Prophet (pbuh) from here, there and every where but didn't bother to approach Hazrath Imam Muhammd Taqi (as) ???
How come you don't have a single narration from this link to Prophet (pbuh), from this chain connecting to the Messenger (pbuh) ???
Is this true or false??? Do we have narrations in Sehih Bukhari from this link to the Prophet (pbuh), from this chain connecting to the Messenger (pbuh) ???
If no then why not??? If no then what does this tell us??? Please do correct me. Discuss, don't attack!
Interesting question finally, are you ready for an interesting answer?
Because Muhammad al-Taqi was a nobody and I myself wouldn't have taken religion from him, he is a low level scholar if at all (assuming he's a scholar) and Imam al-Bukhari took religion from some of the best scholars alive.
Please don't compare the teachers of Bukhari to "Muhammad al-Taqi", none of the people of knowledge sought Muhammad al-Taqi nor did anyone travel to him to get knowledge, heck even the Shia barely narrated from him.
Interesting answer??? Actually a very exciting answer. It's like someone who has been asked a question and has suddenly become speechless, clueless, answerless, not knowing what to say and then just to save their skin they obviously have to come up with something, regardless of how silly and ridiculous it sounds.
And let me tell you why, vast majority of the noble Ahle Sunnah Wal Jama'ah, excluding the Takfeeris and Kharijies who claim to be from and among the Ahle Sunnah Wal Jama'ah but the Ahle Sunnah absolutely reject them and clearly say that they have got nothing to do with them because of their belief about Muhammad (pbuh) being just an ordinary human being and being fallible, the Ahle Sunnah believe and consider the Shia Imams as among the best scholars, Awlia and Awsia of their time. So I don't know what you're talking about. Your views along with certain other brothers is absolutely against the noble Ahle Sunnah Wal Jama'ah.
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Brother don't teach me what is "Ahlul-Sunnah", you asked a question and got the answer. Being a pious person, a person of high status and honorable lineage, is not necessarily a "scholar" or man of knowledge.
I totally understand your reaction, obviously an Imami Twelver must have heard all of his life that all 12 men are the biggest of renowned scholars and the most knowledgeable of men, the truth and the facts are different than a belief you inherited.
The people of Hadith categorize your Imams as follows:
`Ali ibn abi Talib (Sahabi, from the most knowledgeable in Sunan if not the most knowledgeable and the best during his reign).
Hasan and Husayn (Young Sahabah, known for their piety they knew from the Sunnah what the rest of the Sahabah of their generation knew).
`Ali Zayn al-`Abideen (Tabi`ee, known for his piety and was from the scholars of his time although there were more knowledgeable people in his time).
Muhammad and his son Ja`far (Tabi`een, from the top scholars of banu Hashim known for their Hadith and Fiqh but there were more knowledgeable scholars in their time).
Musa and his son `Ali (Good scholars from banu Hashim, in their time there were much better scholars so they weren't sought after much).
Muhammad and his son `Ali and grandson Hasan (Of noble lineage and high status in society, not particularly known to be men of knowledge or Hadith).
Al-Qa'im al-Mahdi Muhammad (A myth, he is not among the living).
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Farid adds this question: Major Shia scholar Ibrahim bin Hashim al-Qummi who claimed to be a companion of "al-Taqi" and is known to narrate a lot of Hadith yet he chose to narrate from many other people other then al-Taqi, why is that? Why didn't he narrate from al-Taqi?
Excellent question!
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Ahsant brother Hani, you did the job for me as for open minded readers, check the actual truth (and not Rafidi propaganda and repeated and recycled lies) and check it for yourself that in the nine main Sunni books there are more narrations from the Ahl Al-Bayt than in the main Shia books:
http://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/narrations-from-ahl-albayt-present-in-books-the-main-books-of-ahlesunnah/
As for Imam Bukhari or Muslim not narrated narrations through certain selected members of the Ahl Al-Bayt, well this proves or disproves nothing, since Imam Bukhari for instance did also not narrate a SINGLE narration from big guns of the Salaf (in the chain), scholars such as Imam Al-Shafi'i! Now what does this make Bukhari? A Nasibi? A neglecter of Sunnis? Certainly not, and hence the Rafidi shubha has been debunked (like why Al-Bukhari did not narrate from Al-Sadiq etc.)
One last comment to this illiterate Rafidi who seems to have issues comprehending simple English:
Well it's crystal clear that what ever suits your ideology and mind set, you will put that forward and stick to it.
And you've said it yourself that you don't want it refuted and challenged. You're trying hard to push your ideology and force it on others.
Put something forward with an open mind and don't be afraid to be challenged over it.
I never said it and the proof is in this very thread where I said that the usual shubuhat (thaqalayn, 12 RULERS hadith etc.) can be discussed in a seperate thread. We don't run away from the joke of what you call a religion, we rip it apart academically with muhkam evidences from the Qur'an and the Sunnah so don't play the lamentation game like a Jew (or your fallible Imams who as you know lamented and whispered Hebrew prayers like bloody Rabbis).
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Brother don't teach me what is "Ahlul-Sunnah", you asked a question and got the answer. Being a pious person, a person of high status and honorable lineage, is not necessarily a "scholar" or man of knowledge.
I totally understand your reaction, obviously an Imami Twelver must have heard all of his life that all 12 men are the biggest of renowned scholars and the most knowledgeable of men, the truth and the facts are different than a belief you inherited.
The people of Hadith categorize your Imams as follows:
`Ali ibn abi Talib (Sahabi, from the most knowledgeable in Sunan if not the most knowledgeable and the best during his reign).
Hasan and Husayn (Young Sahabah, known for their piety they knew from the Sunnah what the rest of the Sahabah of their generation knew).
`Ali Zayn al-`Abideen (Tabi`ee, known for his piety and was from the scholars of his time although there were more knowledgeable people in his time).
Muhammad and his son Ja`far (Tabi`een, from the top scholars of banu Hashim known for their Hadith and Fiqh but there were more knowledgeable scholars in their time).
Musa and his son `Ali (Good scholars from banu Hashim, in their time there were much better scholars so they weren't sought after much).
Muhammad and his son `Ali and grandson Hasan (Of noble lineage and high status in society, not particularly known to be men of knowledge or Hadith).
Al-Qa'im al-Mahdi Muhammad (A myth, he is not among the living).
Brother don't teach me what is "Ahlul-Sunnah", you asked a question and got the answer. Being a pious person, a person of high status and honorable lineage, is not necessarily a "scholar" or man of knowledge.
I totally understand your reaction, obviously an Imami Twelver must have heard all of his life that all 12 men are the biggest of renowned scholars and the most knowledgeable of men, the truth and the facts are different than a belief you inherited.
The people of Hadith categorize your Imams as follows:
`Ali ibn abi Talib (Sahabi, from the most knowledgeable in Sunan if not the most knowledgeable and the best during his reign).
Hasan and Husayn (Young Sahabah, known for their piety they knew from the Sunnah what the rest of the Sahabah of their generation knew).
`Ali Zayn al-`Abideen (Tabi`ee, known for his piety and was from the scholars of his time although there were more knowledgeable people in his time).
Muhammad and his son Ja`far (Tabi`een, from the top scholars of banu Hashim known for their Hadith and Fiqh but there were more knowledgeable scholars in their time).
Musa and his son `Ali (Good scholars from banu Hashim, in their time there were much better scholars so they weren't sought after much).
Muhammad and his son `Ali and grandson Hasan (Of noble lineage and high status in society, not particularly known to be men of knowledge or Hadith).
Al-Qa'im al-Mahdi Muhammad (A myth, he is not among the living).
Brother I'm not teaching you anything. I don't know you and other brothers but your views are certainly not of the Ahle Sunnah. What I have been taught all my life comes from Shias as well as Sunnis. I have studied and still like to study and learn. I always look at things with an open mind. All you've done is give me your opinion and answers based on only words and nothing more.
I can say exactly the same about you but it won't be just words that what you've been taught all your life that everything was sugar and spice and all things were nice after the Prophet (pbuh) died, well history tells a very different story, which is clear in the authentic books. Turning around and rejecting everything that goes against what has been put in your mind and accepting everything that goes with it, what kind of religious belief is this???
I am more in to Ahle Sunnah scholars and what they have to say. You have scholars such as Allama Tahirul Qadari, Irfan Shah Mashadhi etc the list is endless. You have many channels such as Iqra tv, DM digital Sunni tv, Ummah channel, Takbeer tv etc. please don't tell me that the vast majority of the Ahle Sunnah scholars have got nothing to do with Ahle Sunnah Wal Jama'ah and just a small bunch of brothers running a discussion forum represent the Ahel Sunnah Wal Jama'ah world wide with their ridiculous views and malicious attacks.
Again you have just put forward your opinion about the Shia Imam based on words and you are unknown and unrecognisable. Where as the vast majority of known and recognised Ahle Sunnah scholars world wide tell me and the rest of the world a very different story. Completely and absolutely different than your views my brothers.
Who are we suppose to believe??? A group of unknown individuals running this forum putting their views forward, based on bitterness, hatred and envy and using the good name of Ahle Sunnah as their platform??? Or world known and recognised Ahle Sunnah scholars???
I have a lot of Ahle Sunnah friends and none of them claim and say that Shiaism is a religion of Kufr and Shirk. They all believe that Fiqah e Jafferia is just the same as any other Fiqah. And this is what the Ahle Sunnah scholars say as well. Even brothers on this site say that Shiaism is a religion of Kufr and Shirk but when questioned and asked for an explanation for their view, the best they can say or do is "it's none of your business" or start another thread or go off topic.
Is Shiaism a religion of Kufr and Shirk??? Why??? Anybody willing to stick to the subject and have the strength and courage to reply and discuss this???
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"Noble Ahl Al-Sunnah" 8) Is it already taqiyyah season? Anyway, indeed the Sunnah always respected and loved AND narrated narrations from the Ahl Al-Bayt (as proven in the link above), all we reject is the kufr that the Rafidah have attributed to them. As for the 12 Imams even the likes of Shaykh Al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (boogeyman and nightmare of the Rafidah) has praised the 12 Imams (just like every other scholar did), however that doesn't mean that all of the 12 Imams are some sort of super knowledgable scholars. This is just in the fantasy world of the Shias who have been fed with these romantic lies (although as brother Farid correctly stated, even in their very own books they have barely ANYTHING narrated from these "knowledgable" Imams such as Taqi and Naqi!):
http://islamqa.info/en/101272
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That guy is serioulsy asking why Shiism is a religion of kufr, shirk and zandaqah. Are you high? I can't be bothered with such a silly question, what I suggests is that we start a thread and post all the kufriat of your 12er religion PLUS the takfir of MAJOR Shafi'i scholars, Maliki scholars etc. (i.e. noble Sunnis) on your heretical sect, then you will know why your religion is a religion of kufr. As for your ignorant "Sunni" friends or some fake semi-Rafidis (probably extremist Sufis) then nobody gives a damn about them, we can bombard you with true classical (non-Salafi, pure Sunni) text in regards to the kufr of your Madhab. You are opening the gates of Hell for yourself.
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Ahsant brother Hani, you did the job for me as for open minded readers, check the actual truth (and not Rafidi propaganda and repeated and recycled lies) and check it for yourself that in the nine main Sunni books there are more narrations from the Ahl Al-Bayt than in the main Shia books:
http://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/narrations-from-ahl-albayt-present-in-books-the-main-books-of-ahlesunnah/
As for Imam Bukhari or Muslim not narrated narrations through certain selected members of the Ahl Al-Bayt, well this proves or disproves nothing, since Imam Bukhari for instance did also not narrate a SINGLE narration from big guns of the Salaf (in the chain), scholars such as Imam Al-Shafi'i! Now what does this make Bukhari? A Nasibi? A neglecter of Sunnis? Certainly not, and hence the Rafidi shubha has been debunked (like why Al-Bukhari did not narrate from Al-Sadiq etc.)
One last comment to this illiterate Rafidi who seems to have issues comprehending simple English:
Well it's crystal clear that what ever suits your ideology and mind set, you will put that forward and stick to it.
And you've said it yourself that you don't want it refuted and challenged. You're trying hard to push your ideology and force it on others.
Put something forward with an open mind and don't be afraid to be challenged over it.
I never said it and the proof is in this very thread where I said that the usual shubuhat (thaqalayn, 12 RULERS hadith etc.) can be discussed in a seperate thread. We don't run away from the joke of what you call a religion, we rip it apart academically with muhkam evidences from the Qur'an and the Sunnah so don't play the lamentation game like a Jew (or your fallible Imams who as you know lamented and whispered Hebrew prayers like bloody Rabbis).
You are full of bitterness, hatred and envy and this can be clearly seen through your posts. You might be capable of ripping this or that apart but so far I haven't seen anything useful, worthy or constructive from you. Coming out with malicious statements and viscous attacks is all I've seen from you. And when confronted and challenged, you make a run for it. You just want me to respond in your ruthless manner but I'm nothing like you and I'm very much aware of your games and tactics.
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^I am making no run at all, I've debated more Shias in my life than you kid, Shias who know Arabic not kids like you who don't even know the difference between kafir and munafiq. And right now I am opening a thread just for you, wait and see.
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"Noble Ahl Al-Sunnah" 8) Is it already taqiyyah season? Anyway, indeed the Sunnah always respected and loved AND narrated narrations from the Ahl Al-Bayt (as proven in the link above), all we reject is the kufr that the Rafidah have attributed to them. As for the 12 Imams even the likes of Shaykh Al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (boogeyman and nightmare of the Rafidah) has praised the 12 Imams (just like every other scholar did), however that doesn't mean that all of the 12 Imams are some sort of super knowledgable scholars. This is just in the fantasy world of the Shias who have been fed with these romantic lies (although as brother Farid correctly stated, even in their very own books they have barely ANYTHING narrated from these "knowledgable" Imams such as Taqi and Naqi!):
http://islamqa.info/en/101272
Taqiyyah season??? Well it definitely is for you and all year around I guess, since you seem to be so addicted to it that you can't stop yapping on about it.
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^I am making no run at all, I've debated more Shias in my life than you kid, Shias who know Arabic not kids like you who don't even know the difference between kafir and munafiq. And right now I am opening a thread just for you, wait and see.
Oh, I definitely would like to see this. Thank you very much. You are capable of something after all. Lets hope you stick to the topic and thread.
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Brother I'm not teaching you anything. I don't know you and other brothers but your views are certainly not of the Ahle Sunnah. What I have been taught all my life comes from Shias as well as Sunnis. I have studied and still like to study and learn. I always look at things with an open mind. All you've done is give me your opinion and answers based on only words and nothing more.
If you have an open mind why do you keep acting so shocked whenever we present something new? I just presented new information for you and you act as if I split the sea in half.
I can say exactly the same about you but it won't be just words that what you've been taught all your life that everything was sugar and spice and all things were nice after the Prophet (pbuh) died, well history tells a very different story, which is clear in the authentic books. Turning around and rejecting everything that goes against what has been put in your mind and accepting everything that goes with it, what kind of religious belief is this???
I never said that things were sugar and spice, I'm a man who studies and researches and I never accept the words of anyone on a topic he's never researched. I'm very familiar with history in the early Islamic period and I believe for a fact most Shia are not familiar with history at all, rather Shia only know what their scholars cherry pick from Giant history books without research or analysis. Your Mullas tell you "O this and that happened in Tabari" but seriously, how many of you actually go back and research that entire chapter of Tabari and find out if the quoted information is reliable or just "cherry picking"?
I am more in to Ahle Sunnah scholars and what they have to say. You have scholars such as Allama Tahirul Qadari, Irfan Shah Mashadhi etc the list is endless. You have many channels such as Iqra tv, DM digital Sunni tv, Ummah channel, Takbeer tv etc. please don't tell me that the vast majority of the Ahle Sunnah scholars have got nothing to do with Ahle Sunnah Wal Jama'ah and just a small bunch of brothers running a discussion forum represent the Ahel Sunnah Wal Jama'ah world wide with their ridiculous views and malicious attacks.
Never heard of the people you just mentioned, quote me Nawawi, Ibn Katheer and abu Khuzaymah; The legitimate popular and well known Imams of Ahlul-Sunnah, not some random Shaykh you saw here or there on TV or whatever...
Again you have just put forward your opinion about the Shia Imam based on words and you are unknown and unrecognisable. Where as the vast majority of known and recognised Ahle Sunnah scholars world wide tell me and the rest of the world a very different story. Completely and absolutely different than your views my brothers.
I'm an unknown man who learned from the traditional sources and books of Islam, as for you, well you can go and watch your little TV shows, I'm not interested in that low level of education.
Who are we suppose to believe??? A group of unknown individuals running this forum putting their views forward, based on bitterness, hatred and envy and using the good name of Ahle Sunnah as their platform??? Or world known and recognised Ahle Sunnah scholars???
You're not gonna believe anyone but your masters in Qum so don't bother putting any effort into this.
I have a lot of Ahle Sunnah friends and none of them claim and say that Shiaism is a religion of Kufr and Shirk. They all believe that Fiqah e Jafferia is just the same as any other Fiqah. And this is what the Ahle Sunnah scholars say as well. Even brothers on this site say that Shiaism is a religion of Kufr and Shirk but when questioned and asked for an explanation for their view, the best they can say or do is "it's none of your business" or start another thread or go off topic.
I have Shia friends who think that what Shia do is Shirk. Besides I never accused you of Shirk/Kufr, why do you reply to me by bringing this up?
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Oh and Ameen, you never answered Farid's question, why didn't your big scholar Ibrahim bin Hashim narrate from al-Taqi?
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^Akhi, he never answers questions, he answer questions by posing another question (the most wacko and weakest way of escaping). He didn't answer me why his fallible Imams whispered supplications, whilst wailing in HEBREW like Rabbis.
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I am more in to Ahle Sunnah scholars and what they have to say. You have scholars such as Allama Tahirul Qadari, Irfan Shah Mashadhi etc the list is endless. You have many channels such as Iqra tv, DM digital Sunni tv, Ummah channel, Takbeer tv etc. please don't tell me that the vast majority of the Ahle Sunnah scholars have got nothing to do with Ahle Sunnah Wal Jama'ah and just a small bunch of brothers running a discussion forum represent the Ahel Sunnah Wal Jama'ah world wide with their ridiculous views and malicious attacks.
Is Shiaism a religion of Kufr and Shirk??? Why??? Anybody willing to stick to the subject and have the strength and courage to reply and discuss this???
as i remember those so called sunni scholars are extreme barelvi (sufi). heck like of tahir ul qadri has been called kafir by barelvi themselves. those are also sufi channels.
that tahir ul qadri says that god and muhammad are made of same thing. they are one and the same. you quote any famous sunni scholar who said that.
i think shiaism and sufism are 2 hybrid. they are just an example when you mix two religion, when you mix islam with judaism the end product is shiaism. when you combine islam and hinduism end product is sufism.
the former completely left the fold of islam but the latter is extremely deviant at its best
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^Bullseyes
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I don't like to go offtopic but this statement:
"when you combine islam and hinduism end product is sufism."
Do you actually know what sufism is and who are/have been sufis?
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^Brother, he doesn't mean orthodox-Sunni Sufism as practiced by the Salaf. He means this:
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Look I also find barelwis a bit different, but they are sunnis. And since when do you take the word of a kafir as a proof?
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Not the words, their actions are a proof against themselves. Anyway, you agree they are "weird". So lets stick and represent Islam and Sunnah by NON-weird Sunnis, aight.
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Lol, deobandis are wahabis according to him. Everyone against shiism gets branded as wahabi by shias.
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From what I know deos are Hanafi/Sufi and are far from Wahhabiyyah.
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Yes, deobandi are hanafi maturidi, they are not a sect but a school ( Dar ul uloom). Just like people are called "al azharI"
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Farid adds this question: Major Shia scholar Ibrahim bin Hashim al-Qummi who claimed to be a companion of "al-Taqi" and is known to narrate a lot of Hadith yet he chose to narrate from many other people other then al-Taqi, why is that? Why didn't he narrate from al-Taqi?
Very interesting question. Now what kind of a major Shia scholar is he, who you claim was a companion of Imam Muhammad Al Taqi (as) but chose not to narrate from him??? When you put something like this forward, look in to it and ponder over it before posting. It doesn't fit in, it doesn't make any sense.
A Shia scholar, a narrator of hadiths, a companion of Al Taqi (as) but chooses to narrate from others and not Al Taqi (as)???? Put something forward that makes a little bit of sense, then one can think of discussing it.
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Lol, deobandis are wahabis according to him. Everyone against shiism gets branded as wahabi by shias.
Really??? Who said that and where???
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Lol, deobandis are wahabis according to him. Everyone against shiism gets branded as wahabi by shias.
Really??? Who said that and where???
See the video ebn hussein posted.