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Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Imamah-Ghaybah => Topic started by: Link on June 14, 2015, 08:17:06 PM

Title: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Link on June 14, 2015, 08:17:06 PM
...say: no wage do I ask for it except the love in al-Qurba....

Al-Qurba apparent meaning here is the near kin of Mohammad. It meaning "closeness" or "kinship" would have words after it to give closeness to what, kinship to what.

However, we read else where in Quran:


مَا أَفَاءَ اللَّهُ عَلَىٰ رَسُولِهِ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْقُرَىٰ فَلِلَّهِ وَلِلرَّسُولِ وَلِذِي الْقُرْبَىٰ وَالْيَتَامَىٰ وَالْمَسَاكِينِ وَابْنِ السَّبِيلِ كَيْ لَا يَكُونَ دُولَةً بَيْنَ الْأَغْنِيَاءِ مِنْكُمْ ۚ وَمَا آتَاكُمُ الرَّسُولُ فَخُذُوهُ وَمَا نَهَاكُمْ عَنْهُ فَانْتَهُوا ۚ وَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ ۖ إِنَّ اللَّهَ شَدِيدُ الْعِقَابِ
 
 
Sahih International: And what Allah restored to His Messenger from the people of the towns - it is for Allah and for the Messenger and for [his] near relatives and orphans and the [stranded] traveler - so that it will not be a perpetual distribution among the rich from among you. And whatever the Messenger has given you - take; and what he has forbidden you - refrain from. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.
Pickthall: That which Allah giveth as spoil unto His messenger from the people of the townships, it is for Allah and His messenger and for the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, that it become not a commodity between the rich among you. And whatsoever the messenger giveth you, take it. And whatsoever he forbiddeth, abstain (from it). And keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is stern in reprisal.
Yusuf Ali: What Allah has bestowed on His Messenger (and taken away) from the people of the townships,- belongs to Allah,- to His Messenger and to kindred and orphans, the needy and the wayfarer; In order that it may not (merely) make a circuit between the wealthy among you. So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you. And fear Allah; for Allah is strict in Punishment.
Shakir: Whatever Allah has restored to His Messenger from the people of the towns, it is for Allah and for the Messenger, and for the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, so that it may not be a thing taken by turns among the rich of you, and whatever the Messenger gives you, accept it, and from whatever he forbids you, keep back, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is severe in retributing (evil):
Muhammad Sarwar: Whatever God grants to His Messenger (out of the property) of the people of the towns, belongs to God, the Messenger, the kinsfolk, the orphans, the destitute and to those who may become needy while on a journey, so that it will not circulate only in the hands of rich ones among them. Take only what the Messenger gives to you and desist from what he forbids you. Have fear of God; God is severe in His retribution.
Mohsin Khan: What Allah gave as booty (Fai') to His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) from the people of the townships, - it is for Allah, His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), the kindred (of Messenger Muhammad SAW), the orphans, Al­Masakin (the poor), and the wayfarer, in order that it may not become a fortune used by the rich among you. And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it) , and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Severe in punishment.
Arberry: Whatsoever spoils of war God has given to His Messenger from the people of the cities belongs to God, and His Messenger, and the near kinsman, orphans, the needy and the traveller, so that it be not a thing taken in turns among the rich of you. Whatever the Messenger gives you, take; whatever he forbids you, give over. And fear God; surely God is terrible in retribution.
 
 In this verse, we see that whatever has been granted to the Messenger of the Fai, it belongs to Allah and his Messenger and Thul-Qurba, and the orphans, and the poor, and the wayfarer.
 
Now here it's not saying what has been granted to believers so as to say "Thul-Qurba" refers to the kin of the believers. It refers obviously then to the kin of Mohammad.

This also shows the khums verse also refers to the kin of Mohammad.

We see therefore the family of Mohammad are referred to in Quran when mentioned as the near kin. It makes sense then 42:23 is about the same kin.

It would be a huge corruption in the religion however if money given in khums or restored from the towns as booty that went to the Rasool simply went to his kin, for being kin. It obviously is referring to chosen family concept by which they too are leaders of the nation and is due to their status and leadership role that such rights belong to them.

The verse 42:23 obviously is saying, if you want to appreciate the message and show thankfulness to God for the message, then loving al-Qurba is the way.

As kinship in general cannot be something in which the entire message would be shown gratefulness to by loving, it's not the meaning either. General meaning of kin cannot be the meaning either as that is not linked to being grateful to the message. Whatever al-Qurba means here, it has to be integral part of the message, a central role, the inward point of it, the goal of it, that showing loving towards it, would be showing gratefulness to the message.
 
 
34:47 Say: whatever I have asked of you of a wage, it is for yourselves, verily my wage is with God and he is a witness upon all things.
 
This verse shows this in fact was not the wage of Mohammad (saw), for his wage was with Allah (awj), as Allah is a witness upon all things, God witnessing his acts was where his reward truly lied, instead of a reward from the people. The truth was he was rather asking a wage for our sake. The same Surah emphasized "O family of Dawood, do acts of thankfulness/gratefulness, and verily few of my servants are grateful/thankful".
 
The wage asked by Mohammad (saw) was asked on behalf of God, as God told him to ask this wage, and was a way to be grateful to him for the message.  If we truly appreciate the message Mohammad (saw) came with, we will appreciate Al-Qurba and love Al-Qurba, as Al-Qurba are the central part of the message.
 
Now on reflection, as they have been linked to showing gratefulness to the message, they have be chosen for the religion. This cannot be but a chosen exalted family type meaning. The true family of Mohammad (saw) which like the family of Nuh (as) cannot include those who act other then righteously. And like the family of Ibrahim (as), is of the chosen ones only.
 
25:57 Say: No wage have I asked of you for it, except for who wants to take towards his Lord a path.
 
This shows Al-Qurba are a path to the whole nation, and are hence always ahead of the believers, are the path for everyone to take no matter how high they are. This shows they are the best of the nation.
 
Furthermore, this shows loving their light is loving the path of Worship of God. Not only that, but it means to love their light which is found in less degrees in all of humanity and creation.

Their love includes a higher level that brings one near to God and includes an encompassing love of their light that makes one love good human beings as well.

The path of virtue and goodness is that which is loved as well.

When God makes a people a means towards himself and wants them to be a path towards him, it's obviously not normal people, but special exalted people.

In Quran, we see Iblis didn't prostate to Adam. He couldn't recognize the Ayatallah in Adam and hence was of the disbelievers in God's Ayat.

The Noor of Ahlulbayt is such that it is holy exalted and sacred, and that is why attachment to them is always a path to God.

Allah has always tried people with his chosen ones, and we see here the family of Mohammad have been given the designation of being the path towards God.

The love of them really takes reality when one comes to know their station and being attached to their holy spirits. It takes submission to their position as divine guides and following their noble beauty and glory.

The issue is almost all of humanity has a love towards God, but it's another thing to really love the true light of God and submit to his representatives who manifest his holy names and attributes most best.

The interpretation of Al-Qurba being closeness would have to have words "ilallah" or go against the convention of langue. It would also be deceptive of God to give the impression that he is referring to kin of Mohammad which is the first impression but then mean something else entirely when he could of stated that it in different words.

The sunni interpretation that it means kinship between Mohammad and Quraysh also holds no ground from first impression and would be deceptive, and it also goes against the fact that the wage of the message was to take a path to God and that it being saying all he asks is love in the kinship between him and quraysh goes against the fact he was asking them to worship God, to submit to Islam, etc, etc...and would go against the fact that he did ask a wage for the message.

The wage verses through out Quran are linked to emphasis on attachment and following his chosen ones. For example, in Suratal Ana'aam, we see it's midst of emphasizing those were given Prophethood, and saying to Mohammad (saw) to follow their guidance, and then tells us that he asks us no wage that is but a reminder/remembrance to the worlds.

Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Hani on June 14, 2015, 08:19:28 PM
I can't read your piece now, but Long story short, Dhawi-al-Qurba in Arabic are those of close relations, meaning the paternal and maternal relatives such as cousins, uncles and aunts.

Insha-Allah I'll read tomorrow and give my thoughts.
Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Aba AbdAllah on June 14, 2015, 09:37:14 PM
Excerpt taken from here:
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2014/09/11/9-sunni-answers-to-shiapens-article-on-fadak-and-inheritance-of-prophetsaw-chapter-nine/

Quote
If this would have been related to Ahlelbayt then the wordings of the verse should have been “Zawil Qurba” , instead of “Fil  Qurba”. The wording “fil qurba” implies that the verse is not related to Ahlelbayt. Fil qurba is a general term to describe whoever close to you and that is the exact meaning that Allah pointed the prophet(saw) to do, that is, to spread love to every Muslim. On the other hand zawil qurba can be used to restrict to ahlel bayt. Especially in the language of Taye طئ where zawil  is used instead of Allazey to descrbe Nassab ” relations etc ” which in this case it will restrict the meaning to Ahlel bayt.

Secondly, this Surah is Makkan, and Prophet(saw) was addressing this to the disbelievers, as apparent from the verse before and after. So the question that rises is that, why would the Prophet(saw) ask the Kuffar and Mushrikeen to love the Ahlel Bayt, before even asking them to believe in Allah and the message of tawheed?

Thirdly, the correct and authentic and agreed upon view of Sunnis regarding this verse is what reported in authentic ahadeeth from Ibn Abbas(ra).

We read in Sahih Bukhari:

Ibn `Abbas recited the Qur’anic Verse:–‘Except to be kind to me for my kin-ship to you–” (42.23) Sa`id bin Jubair said, “(The Verse implies) the kinship of Muhammad.” Ibn `Abbas said, “There was not a single house (i.e. sub-tribe) of Quraish but had a kinship to the Prophet (saw) and so the above Verse was revealed in this connection, and its interpretation is: ‘O Quraish! You should keep good relation between me (i.e. Muhammad) and you.”( Sahih al-Bukhari 3497)

Narrated Ibn `Abbas: That he was asked (regarding): “Except to be kind to me for my Kinship with you.’ (42.23) Sa`id bin Zubair (who was present then) said, “It means here (to show what is due for) the relatives of Muhammad.” On that Ibn `Abbas said: you have hurried in giving the answer! There was no branch of the tribe of Quraish but the Prophet(saw) had relatives therein. The Prophet(saw) said, “I do not want anything from (you) except to be Kind to me for my Kinship with you.”(Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 6, Book 60, Hadith 343)

Fourthly, Allama Qurtubi said in his Tafseer:

الأولى ـ قوله تعالى: { قُل لاَّ أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْراً } أي قل يا محمد لا أسألكم على تبليغ الرسالة جعلاً. { إِلاَّ ٱلْمَوَدَّةَ فِي ٱلْقُرْبَىٰ } قال الزجاج: «إِلاَّ الْمَوَدَّةَ» استثناء ليس من الأول؛ أي إلا أن تَوَدُّوني لقرابتي فتحفظوني. والخطاب لقريش خاصَّةً؛ قاله ابن عباس وعكرمة ومجاهد وأبو مالك والشعبيّ وغيرهم. قال الشعبيّ: أكْثَرَ الناس علينا في هذه الآية فكتبنا إلى ابن عباس نسأله عنها؛ فكتب أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم كان أوسط الناس في قريش، فليس بَطْنٌ من بطونهم إلا وقد وَلَدَه؛ فقال الله له: { قُل لاَّ أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْراً إِلاَّ ٱلْمَوَدَّةَ فِي ٱلْقُرْبَىٰ } إلا أن تَوَدُّوني في قرابتي منكم؛ أي تراعوا ما بيني وبينكم فتصدّقوني. فـ «ـالْقُرْبَى» هاهنا قرابة الرَّحِم؛ كأنه قال: اتبعوني للقرابة إن لم تتبعوني للنبوّة

Say: “No reward do I ask of you for this except the love of those near of kin.”. That means: O Muhammad, I don’t want you to give anything to me instead of preaching this message.

Regarding words “except the love of those near of kin” az-Zujaj said: “except the love” means exception from the not of the first kind. Meaning, I want you to love me only due to family kinship, and to protect me in such way. Such explanation was given by ibn Abbas, Ikrima, Mujahid, Abu Malik, Shabe and others.

Ash-Shabe said: When people started asking lot of question regarding this verse, we send letter to ibn Abbas asking explanation, he wrote to us: Prophet (sallalahu alaihi wa ala alihi wa sallam) among all people has closest types of kinship. He has familty ties with all their branches. Allah Taala revealed to him: I don’t want from you for this anything except love due to family ties. Meaning: I want you show love to me due to my family ties with you. That’s mean I want you to affirm me due to these ties between us. That’s why “qurbah” here means patrimonial (ties). As if he would say them: If you don’t obey me due to my prophecy, at least obey me due to our family ties. {(this hadith from Shabe, Suyuti quoted in “Durr” in the commentary to this verse, with reference to Said ibn Mansur, Hakim – who authenticated it, Abd ibn Humayd, ibn Sad, Beyhaki and ibn Marwadeyh)}

Allama Ibn Jawzi in “Zaydul maisir” (5/387) quoted 5 opinions on meaning of this verse, and noted that first one (which was narrated by shaykhan from ibn Abbas) is correct one.

Abu Ala al-Mawdudi in his tafsir gave a comprehensive explanation, rejecting the reports which Shia quote:

The word qurba in the original has been interpreted differently by the different commentators. One section of them takes it in the meaning of kinship and has given this meaning to the verse “I do not ask of you any reward for this service, but I do desire that you (O people of Quraish) should show some regard tar the kinship that there is between me and you. You should have accepted my invitation. but if you do not accept it, you should not be so hard-hearted as to Become my bitterest enemies in the entire land of Arabia. ” This is the interpretation given by Hadrat ‘Abdullah bin ‘Abbas, which has been cited by lmam Ahmad, Bukhari. Muslim. Tirmidhi, Ibn Jarir, Tabarani, Baihaqi. Ibn Said and others on the authority of many reporters and the same commentary has been given by Mujahid. ‘Ikrimah, Qatadah, Suddi, Abu Malik, ‘Abdur Rehman bin Zaid bin Aslam, Dahhak. ‘Ata bin Dinar and the other major commentators.

The other section takes qurba in the meaning of nearness and interprets the verse to mean: “I do not seek from you any other reward than this that you should develop in yourselves a desire for attaining nearness to Allah. That is; you should be reformed. That is my only reward. ” This commentary has been reported from Hasan Basri and a saying of Qatadah also has been cited in support of this: so much so that in a tradition by Tabarani this saying has also been attributed to Ibn ‘Abbas. In the Qur’an itself, at another place, this same subject has been treated, thus: “Tell them: I do not seek of you any reward for this work: I only ask of the one who will. to adopt the way of his Lord.’ (AI-Furqan: 57).

The third group takes qurba in the meaning of the kindred, and interprets the verse to mean this: “I do not seek from you any other reward than this that you should love my near and dear ones.” Then, some of the commentators of this group interpret ‘the kindred” to mean alt the children of ‘Abdul Muttalib, and some others restrict it to Hadrat ‘AIi and Fatimah and their children. This commentary has been reported from Said bin Jubair and ‘Amr bin Shu’aib, and in some traditions it has been attributed to Ibn ‘Abbas and Hadrat ‘AIi bin Husain (Zain al-’Abedin), but this interpretation cannot be accepted for several reasons. Firstly. when Surah Ash-Shura was sent down at Makkah, Hadrat ‘AIi and Fatimah had not yet been married and, therefore, there could be no question of their children. As for the children of ‘Abdul Muttalib, they were not all following the Holy Prophet but some of them had openly joined with his enemies, and the enmity of Abu Lahab is too well known. Second, “the kindred” of the Holy Prophet were not only the children of ‘Abdul Muttalib but he had his kindred among all the families of the Quraish through his mother and his father and his wife. Hadrat Khadijah. In all these clans he had his best supporters as well as his staunch enemies ‘Third, and this is the most important paint, in view of the high position of a Prophet from which he starts his mission of inviting the people towards Allah, it does not seem fitting that he would ask the people to love his kindred in return for his services in connection with his great Mission. No person of fine taste could imagine that Allah would have taught His Prophet such a mean thing, and the Prophet would havc uttered the same before the Quraish. In the stones that have been narrated of the Prophets in the Qur’an, we find that a Prophet after a Prophet stands up before his people sad says: “I do not ask of you any reward: my reward is with Allah, Lord of the worlds.” (Yunus: 72; Hud: 29, 51; Ash-Shu’ara’: 109, 127, 145, 164, l80). In Surah Ya Sin the criterion given of a Prophet’s truthfulness is that he gives his invitation without any selfish motive. (v. 21). In the Qur’an the Holy Prophet himself has been made to say again and again words to the effect: “I demand no reward from you for this message. ” (Al An’am: 90, Yusuf: 104, Al-Mu’minun: 72, Al-Furqan: 57, Saba: 47, Suad: 86, At-Tur; 40, AI Qalam: 46). After this, what could be the occasion for the Holy Prophet to tell the people that in return for his service of inviting them to Allah, they should lout his relatives. Then it seems all the more irrelevant when we state that the addressees here are the disbelievers and not the believers. The whole discourse, from the beginning w the end, is directed to them. Therefore, there could be no question in this regard of asking the opponents for any reward, for a reward is asked of those who show some appreciation for the services that a person has rendered for them. The disbelievers were not at all appreciative of the Holy Prophet’s services: on the contrary, they regarded them as a crime and had turned bitterly hostile to him. (Tahfeem ul Quran by Abu Ala al-Mawdudi, for 42:23).

Shiekh Ali Muhammad as-Sallabi states in his book:

This verse appears in Soorat ash-Shoora, which was revealed in Makkah before the migration to Madinah, according to the consensus of Ahl as-Sunnah. It is well known that ‘Ali(ra) did not marry Fatimah(ra) until after the battle of Badr, which was in 2 AH, al-Hasan(ra) was born in 3AH and al-Husayn(ra) in 4 AH. This verse was revealed many years before the existence of al-Hasan and al-Husayn, so how could the Prophet(saw) interpret it as referring to the obligation to honour relatives who were not yet known or born?

The commentary on this verse that appears in as-Saheeh from Ibn Abbas is contrary to that. Ibn Taymiyah said: “Here is Ibn ‘Abbas(ra), the interpreter of the Qur’an and the most knowledgeable of Ahl al-Bayt after ‘Ali(ra), saying: ‘This does not mean being kind to my relatives. Rather it means: I do not ask you, O Arabs and O Quraysh, for any reward; instead, I ask you to uphold the ties of kinship between me and you.’ So he asked the people to whom he was sent first of all to uphold these ties of kinship with him and not to transgress against him, so that he could convey the message of his Lord.

The hadith that they regard as explaining the verse is false and fabricated, according to the consensus of the scholars of hadith who decide such issues; this was stated by Ibn Taymiyah. Ibn Katheer also compiled all the hadiths that were narrated concerning the interpretation of this verse and determined that the hadiths stating that the kinship mentioned here refers to Fatimah(ra) and her sons have weak chains of narration. He narrated a report from Ibn Abi Hatim that says: “A man whom he named told us, Husayn al-Ashqar told us… he narrated from a fanatic Shiite shaykh, namely Husayn al-Ashqar, whose reports cannot he accepted in this context. Stating that this verse was revealed in Madinah is farfetched, because it is Makkan, and at that time Fatimah(ra) did not have any children at all, since she did not get married to ‘Ali(ra) until after the battle of Badr in 2 AH. The correct interpretation of this verse is the one given by the scholar of the Ummah and the interpreter of the Qur’an, Abdullah ibn ‘Abbas(ra)). Ibn Hajar also discussed the weakness of the reports mentioned and the fact that they are contrary to the sound hadith. (Ali ibn Abi Talib, by Sheikh Ali Muhammad as-Sallabi, vol 2, pg 403-405)
Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Link on June 14, 2015, 11:07:29 PM
Aba Abdallah

1. Al-Qurba can refer to kin, near kin.
2. The wage is for the message, so if addressed to disbelievers, it means this is all he asks for the wage of the message. It being a wage of the message applies to believers and only applies to once you believe in the message.  IT doesn't make sense to assume he wishes disbelievers to repay him for the message while they see his message as a huge crime and deny it. It ofcourse makes sense it is saying this is what he all he asks as a wage once the message is accepted.
3. According to other verses the wage of the message was to take a path to God, hence the wage is a path to God.
4. Loving kinship between Quraysh and him would not be taking a path to God, nor does it make sense to be the central way of showing appreciation to the message.
5. The wage was asked on behalf of God and hence is a way to show appreciating to Islam, as other verses show the wage of Mohammad (saw) was in fact with God, Lord of the worlds, and he was asking the wage for our sake.
6. It's against language convention to assume Qurba means anything a part from family of Mohammad, as we see the narration from Abbas even had a person assuming it meant family of Mohammad showing this is the apparent meaning of the verse, and with other meaning you have to assume invisible words which you cannot get from the text nor has context.
7. There is nothing that proves Medina verses cannot be sometimes added to Meccan Surahs.
8. It not originally including Hassan and Hussain upon revelation (ie. it originally was just Ali/Fatima), would not negate it by meaning applying to rest of Imams once they are born.
Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Hadrami on June 14, 2015, 11:16:41 PM
Link, you said yourself on another thread that you had some mental health issue. Why don't you sort that out first, clear your mind, rather than getting involve in this kind of activities. It's for your own good.
Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Furkan on June 14, 2015, 11:22:46 PM
And another advice, let's stick to one subject and the move to another one maybe brother?
Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Aba AbdAllah on June 15, 2015, 06:17:58 PM
Aba Abdallah

1. Al-Qurba can refer to kin, near kin.
2. The wage is for the message, so if addressed to disbelievers, it means this is all he asks for the wage of the message. It being a wage of the message applies to believers and only applies to once you believe in the message.  IT doesn't make sense to assume he wishes disbelievers to repay him for the message while they see his message as a huge crime and deny it. It ofcourse makes sense it is saying this is what he all he asks as a wage once the message is accepted.
3. According to other verses the wage of the message was to take a path to God, hence the wage is a path to God.
4. Loving kinship between Quraysh and him would not be taking a path to God, nor does it make sense to be the central way of showing appreciation to the message.
5. The wage was asked on behalf of God and hence is a way to show appreciating to Islam, as other verses show the wage of Mohammad (saw) was in fact with God, Lord of the worlds, and he was asking the wage for our sake.
6. It's against language convention to assume Qurba means anything a part from family of Mohammad, as we see the narration from Abbas even had a person assuming it meant family of Mohammad showing this is the apparent meaning of the verse, and with other meaning you have to assume invisible words which you cannot get from the text nor has context.
7. There is nothing that proves Medina verses cannot be sometimes added to Meccan Surahs.
8. It not originally including Hassan and Hussain upon revelation (ie. it originally was just Ali/Fatima), would not negate it by meaning applying to rest of Imams once they are born.

The last response of mine has nailed down your arguments. What annihilates your theories is the grammar of the verse. Your conclusions would have been acceptable if the verse was  “Zawil Qurba” , instead of “Fil  Qurba”. The wording “fil qurba” implies that the verse is not related to Ahlelbayt.

So what you should sort out first instead of running your silly theories is the grammatical structure of the verse which weakens your theories.

Secondly, as for the meaning of Qurbah, then the verse says "al-Qurba" and they are not Ahlul-Bayt alone, they are all his relatives.

The meaning of Qurbah in Arabic and it basically means ALL of his relatives even the far relatives, anyone who is related to him through the womb, maternal and paternal uncles, male and female cousins, children and nephews ect...

لما نَزَلَتْ هذه الآية، صَعِدَ الصَّفا، ونادى الأَقْرَبَ فالأَقْرَبَ، فَخِذاً فَخِذاً. يا بني عبدالمطلب، يا بني هاشم، يا بني عبدمناف، يا عباسُ، يا صفيةُ: إِني لا أَملك لكم من اللّه شيئاً، سَلُوني من مالي ما شئتم؛ هذا عن الزجاج.وتقول: بيني وبينه قَرابة، وقُرْبٌ، وقُرْبَـى، ومَقْرَبة، ومَقْرُبة، وقُرْبَة، وقُرُبَة، بضم الراءِ، وهو قَريبي، وذو قَرابَتي، وهم أَقْرِبائي، وأَقارِبي.
والعامة تقول: هو قَرابَتي، وهم قَراباتي.
وقولُه تعالى: قل لا أَسْـأَلُكم عليه أَجْراً إِلا الـمَوَدَّة في القُرْبَـى؛ أَي إِلا أَن تَوَدُّوني في قَرابتي أَي في قَرابتي منكم.

It is explained as the closeness of the prophet (SAWS) to the people, meaning "No reward do I ask of you for this except to be kind to me for my kinship with you." or my closeness from you, and this is also correct in Arabic.

Eitherway this is not about the five or 14 people you have in mind nor is it about Ahlul-Bayt, it is about all his relatives which means bani 'Abdul-Mutallib, bani 'Abd-Manaf, bani-Hashim, 'Abbas Safiyyah and so on as was mentioned in the Hadith.

Since it is general you cannot make any silly  conclusion.
Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Hani on June 15, 2015, 06:53:28 PM
Bro you're actually arguing this!?

Quote
((2. The wage is for the message, so if addressed to disbelievers, it means this is all he asks for the wage of the message. It being a wage of the message applies to believers and only applies to once you believe in the message.  IT doesn't make sense to assume he wishes disbelievers to repay him for the message while they see his message as a huge crime and deny it. It ofcourse makes sense it is saying this is what he all he asks as a wage once the message is accepted.))

Ya Akhi, this is a simple Arabic expression meaning: He wishes for them to treat him well if only for his closeness to them and in return he will guide them to salvation and he asks for no reward. (meaning he doesn't do this to acquire wealth or position).

The man was trying to do good to them but they gave him and hard time and hurt him badly. You as a Shiite with a very narrow understanding of Islam will take ANY WORD in the Qur'an to try and link everything to your foreign belief (That's why ur called Link get it = D ). Then you talk about "assumption" while you assume a billion things in your posts, read the verses before it man the entire speech is aimed at the disbelievers and refuting them while promising those who believe rewards.
Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Hani on June 15, 2015, 07:46:03 PM
Your conclusions would have been acceptable if the verse was  “Zawil Qurba” , instead of “Fil  Qurba”. The wording “fil qurba” implies that the verse is not related to Ahlelbayt.


That sounds correct to me. If loving the relatives is an option, he would have said "Mawaddah lil-Qurba" or "Mawaddat-ul-Qurba" or "Mawaddat Dhawi al-Qurba" instead of "al-Mawaddata fil-Qurba".

In fact the verse can be explained in several ways:

"Al-Mawaddatu fil-Qurba" can be explained that:

1- I call you to this message and promise you reward from God and I do not wish for any recompense from you but at least if you do not wish to listen and refuse the guidance then do not attack me and turn people against me due to our tie of closeness.

2- I call you to this message and if you accept it and become believers then I do not ask you for any reward except for your love to me and each-other because the believers are brothers and they are bound by closeness and love.

3- I call you to this message and ask you for nothing except that you should do whatever brings you closer to God and makes your bond stronger with Him.

Then the Shiite explanation:

O believers, in exchange for my message I ask you to love my relatives.

Of course the first three make a lot more sense than the last one as opposed to what the OP said.
Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Link on June 15, 2015, 09:17:41 PM
Hani, if it means kinship/closeness between himself and qurasyh, it would not be the path towards God nor would it be a central way of showing appreciation to the message. Plus other verses show it's a reminder to the alameen.

If it was closeness to God, it would say "to God" or otherwise it is against convention of language to assume it meant that as opposed to kin.

Fel means in, and it doesn't change the meaning. You are making up stuff.

If it meant closeness to believers to one another it would of said that, otherwise, assuming all these invisible words in brackets doesn't make sense.

It would be deceptive of God to mean anything but the family of Mohammad and we see in other verses thul-qurba refers to family of Mohammad so it makes sense it's the same kin.

The attribute of it being normal kin doesn't make sense as some relatives can be astray nor would there love be necessarily taking a path to God if they were normal people. It makes sense because it's a path to God and a way of showing appreciation to the message and religion of God, that whoever these people are they are a central position in Islam.

When God makes people a means towards him and the path towards him, it's obviously not normal people, but special exalted people. So it doesn't make sense it's all relatives.

The apparent meaning is "the near kin (of Mohammad)".

It would be deceptive of God to give the impression of that, but mean something else with hidden words in brackets that cannot be made out. For example you stated it can mean closeness to believers to Prophet or to each other, or it can mean to God. So none of these meanings can be derived from the text itself, and you are saying it can be one of these meanings, the fact that you say these various meanings can be it is all because you are assuming it's ok to assume hidden words in brackets with no context giving it. This against the convention of language to put whatever invisible words you want and say this can be the meaning when the context doesn't give that, and God could of easily stated those words, while without stating the words it gives the impression of "the near kin".

So that is against the convention of language. By the convention of language, it means "the near kin". As normal kin of believers cannot be the meaning, it means kin of Mohammad. And as normal kin of Mohammad would not be central way of showing appreciation to Islam nor would their love be a path towards God, it shows it means special kin, exalted chosen family type meaning.

There is other verses to consider. The religion of God is said to be Worship of God and in another place the Fitra. Other verses showing following and obeying the Messenger is that path to God. Another verse says 'twelve months, four of them being sacred, that is the upright religion". Now of course literal months cannot be the religion, but we see in verse 42:23 and 25:57 the path toward God is described to be love in al-Qurba. It can interpreted that following the Messenger is through love in his family and they are his light. Ali (as) being the gate to the city of knowledge or door to the house of wisdom, would be the first part of this trial of following the Messenger. Then the rest of the 11 Imams. Therefore it makes sense the twelve months although literal are also a parable towards the upright religion, and this is a parable in Quran showing his family has twelve Imams while Mohammad is the light and his message and sunnah and way in all that, and their love is the true way of following Messenger, which is the true way to worship God,and he is the entirety of his family being the light of them...the religion of God is to worship him which is through submission which is through following the Messenger which is through love in al-Qurba (42:23, 25:57) and the upright religion is "twelve months, with four being sacred", our hadiths interpret this to be the 12 Imams with four being named Ali that is a sacred name of Allah.

Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Furkan on June 15, 2015, 09:34:04 PM
Dude there are 4 sacred months and thats it.

If it would refer to personalities, then you have to accept that 8 imams aren't sacred.

Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Furkan on June 15, 2015, 09:35:53 PM
Notice how we Sunnis dont go to such far lengths to prove our stances since we dont need to.
Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Aba AbdAllah on June 15, 2015, 09:37:38 PM
 Narrated Ibn `Abbas: Once the Prophet embraced me and said, “O Allah! Bestow on him the knowledge of the Book (Qur’an). (Sahi bukhari 1.75).

Ibn `Abbas recited the Qur’anic Verse:–‘Except to be kind to me for my kin-ship to you–” (42.23) Sa`id bin Jubair said, “(The Verse implies) the kinship of Muhammad.” Ibn `Abbas said, “There was not a single house (i.e. sub-tribe) of Quraish but had a kinship to the Prophet (saw) and so the above Verse was revealed in this connection, and its interpretation is: ‘O Quraish! You should keep good relation between me (i.e. Muhammad) and you.”( Sahih al-Bukhari 3497)

Hence there is no further need to argue with your non-sensical philosophies. However I would like to show you your own hadeeth:

عن هشام بن سالم عن أبى عبد الله عليه السلام قال: من فسر القرآن برأيه فاصاب لم يوجر، وان اخطأ كان اثمه عليه
Whoever exegesis the Qur'an with his opinion, so (if ) hits(the mark) there would be no reward and if he made mistake then his sin is upon him."
Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Link on June 15, 2015, 10:20:11 PM
Hani, the main difference is that I see that there is only one possible meaning by the words themselves and the impression it gives, while, you are saying it can have various meanings with invisible words assumed. I don't think God would say things ambiguously like that with many meanings and then we have to take an opinion of a companion to mean one of those meanings with invisible words without even having the Rasool explain it according to you guys.

If we go by this stuff that we can always go against the first impression with no reason to do so, then, Bahais are right to say seal of Prophets is ambiguous and can mean he is the end journey of all Prophets and all Prophets are the end journey of each other being on the same path...why not then? They can say if Allah wanted to make clear Mohammad was the last Prophet in Quran it could of said "there will be no Prophet after Mohammad".

So I seek refuge from doing stuff to God's words like that that none of us would do to each other words.

The other difference is that it's been described to be a path to God, and we see emphasis that it is remembrance/reminder to the worlds in other verses, and for example, in suratal ana'aam, we see this emphasis after emphasis on the Prophets and God choosing them and telling Mohammad to follow their guidance...we see that emphasis on the wage being a reminder to the worlds.

These verses all give the impression it's the family of Mohammad who are a family of chosen ones who are the made the means to Allah.

And what I said about "the upright religion" wasn't from my accord but was something I came to understand through Taweel of Ahlulbayt. And it makes sense that twelve literal months is not the upright religion as that makes no sense at all.

Therefore this is a safeguard in Quran to the number of Imams with Mohammad (saw).

Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Khaled on June 15, 2015, 10:27:30 PM
So I seek refuge from doing stuff to God's words like that that none of us would do to each other words.

Do you normally interpret people's words in a different language than the one they spoke in?
Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Furkan on June 15, 2015, 11:00:45 PM
Link, why didn't Allah use the word "imams" instead of "months"?
Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Khaled on June 15, 2015, 11:05:41 PM
Link, why didn't Allah use the word "imams" instead of "months"?

Its funny because the fact that Allah mentions 12 months but not 12 Imams should be one of the most devastating arguments against the Shi'a.

But what do you excpect?  We're arguing with a guy that doesn't know Arabic; its really no different from debating James White
Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Link on June 16, 2015, 12:12:42 AM
Link, why didn't Allah use the word "imams" instead of "months"?

I think God out of wisdom didn't want to force people to accept the 12 Imams. So he put the family of Mohammad, their divine authority, and their number, in a way, that not everyone sees them and a people who see them can still deny. With reflection everything becomes clear however.

I think this was out of wisdom to

1) Preserve the Quran without forcing people to not corrupt it through supernatural means.
2) Have Ahlulbayt as a trial.
3) If the number of Imams was explicit in Quran and not in a form of parable, then I think we would of have had various sects claiming twelve Imams and twelve successors, and there is a chance there would a different fabricated set of names of the 12 Imams...that this matter would be ultra confusing for later generations. So he out of wisdom had the Rasool designate the 12 Imams, name them, and there is only one set of names named by Rasool according to hadiths with a set number. We would expect as Ulil-Amr, Al-Qurba, Ahlelbayt, are designated in Quran, that hadiths would elaborate the details ie. their number and names. Only one set of number and names exist as a result. While had the Quran said there would be 12 Imams explicitly instead in a form of parable, there is a high chance deviated sects of different Imams would of ended at 12 Imams and the matter would be confusing as I explained already. So he left as a parable and it being clear enough when you think about it being the upright religion, but with room for denial.
 
Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Furkan on June 16, 2015, 12:51:32 AM
Lame excuse there Link. Why would you come up with your own ideas to back weird claims?

Anyway, Quran came to guide us and there I an aya telling us Quran is CLEAR.

Honestly brother, do you really think your excuses suit Allah, Al Rahmaan? 

I ask my knowledgeable brothers to reply detailed on links last post. He is a sincere brother, it's worth it.
Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Link on June 16, 2015, 04:40:19 AM
The Quran guidance is clear but itself emphasizes only those who possess understanding remember and that is revealed to a people who reflect. It also warns about locks on the hearts stopping from reflection and warns about the Satanic suggestion with respect to every recitation.

I showed in another thread how manifest the issue of Ulil-Amr is with the context of the divine authority of the family of Ibrahim, but you guys don't accept the clear flow. To me, this is proof there is dark influence on the hearts of people regarding the Quran that wants people not to accept Auli-Mohammad in Quran. This to me is as it states, it's Satanic forces and the Jibt (seher) through blowing on knots on the hearts from evil forces.

Even when it comes clear by language and shown by analogy excuses are made and hearts don't want to accept the clear manifest flow but look for unclear excuses.

The love in the Qurba is another place were the manifest reading is the chosen exalted family of Mohammad but people want to imagine invisible words and make up a plethora of possibilities with the phrase, other then what is clearly intended.

Allah veiled Ahlulbayt in a package, so that who sees them in Quran, sees a great treasure and appreciates God's subtle ways of speaking to the believing people about them.

 Ayat Tatheer reveals a great station, a noble status, but it is veiled with addressing the wives, but upon reflection, one comes to realize it's about the chosen family, and there is two images produced, two flows, two recitations...one is supported by reason and other verses of Quran and one is a hasty recitation, but the hasty recitation was meant to happen...to veil them and put a trial, while the hadiths emphasize on the true recitation (ie. hadithal kisaa).

From my knowledge of Allah, I see that this world is a place of trial, Allah loves to try his servants as a means of extending his special mercy, this is why he allowed Iblis to attempt to lead people astray, this is why the world is imperfect and full of tribulations.

I see in this manifest yet hidden, hidden yet manifest, explicit and implicit, short designation, long elaboration, allusions and designations, the link of Salah and Quran, the link of the Sunnah and Quran, something that manifests a majestic wisdom of God.

Had the Quran been from a human (ie. Mohammad was faking it), yes, I would expect it to explicitly name Ali in a clear decisive manner, but God is subtle, his speech is just another level, it's clear to the sincere, it's wisdom to those who reflect, the flow and majestic interpretation is there for hearts that are awake and sound.

It's like Yaqoub hinted an excuse for his sons so they can return without stating what they did explicitly out of malice. In the same way, Allah allowed people to turn away from Ahlulbayt without them explicitly rejecting the Quran so that perhaps they can return.

I see some people here don't even accept the family of Ibrahim is a chosen family of chosen ones, and doesn't include normal people. If that much opposition to Ahlulbayt's station has made people deny this much, then there is not much more to be said.

It's not the Quran is not clear enough, it's clear enough, it's just that it allowed darkness and light with respect to it's interpretation, one supported by reason and sincerity and a wakeful heart and light, and another supported by Satanic suggestion, darkness, and blindness, and go against reason.

As the Quran states, it's throws parables, and guides who he wants with it and misguides who he wants with it. The twelve months with four being sacred although literally about months, is a parable of the what the upright religion is. The upright religion cannot be literal months. A little reflection of this, and it becomes clear.

Therefore this is a parable of the upright religion.  However if you cannot accept hadithal thaqalain in it's place along with Ali Mawla, nor can you accept the Ulil-Amr flow with mulk al-atheem of Auli-Ibrahim and the emphasis on believing in it and rejecting and link to that to believing in God's Ayat or disbelief in it,  nor can you accept the clear designation of the wage of the message being the family of Mohammad nor can you see Ayat Tatheer with the Ahlul-Kisaa unique flow as elaborated by the Sunnah and proven by reason, then it's not expected you see the designation of the 12 representatives of Mohammad (saw) in the 12 months...with emphasis that it is the upright religion.

You are already opposing clearer and more brighter signs, so why would you accept a more subtle recitation and parable despite it being proven by reason and link to other verses as well?

God guides whom he wills, the Quran is a guidance for who he reflects, not for people who make hasty recitations and follow unclear of it rather then the clear signs from it from reflection and a wakeful heart. It's for people who want to follow the best of it and listen to God's actual words, as to what he means, rather then simply dismissing his intended words with conjecture to stick to a sect.

As I stated, if he was explicit in the way you want it about 12 number, then I'm sure there would be so many sects claiming a number of 12 with names, and the matter would be ultra confusing to the masses with no way of clear guidance.

Allahu Alim.



Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Khaled on June 16, 2015, 05:10:45 AM
Even when it comes clear by language....
Allah veiled Ahlulbayt in a package, so that who sees them in Quran, sees a great treasure and appreciates God's subtle ways of speaking to the believing people about them.

I think you write so much, you never actually think about you're saying.  Is it clear language or are they veiled?

In your opinion "إنما يريد الله ليذهب عنكم الرجس أهل البيت" is clear in wanting us to follow Ahl al Bayt, but "والسابقون الأولون من المهاجرين والأنصار والذين اتبعوهم بإحسان رضي الله عنهم ورضوا عنه وأعد له جنات" is not clear in want us to follow the Muhairun and the Ansaar?

I also love how you have that we have a dark influence on our hearts then at the end of the post you write, "Allahu Alim."

P.S. you meant to write Alam.  You really should learn Arabic
Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Link on June 16, 2015, 05:16:38 AM
It's both. They are veiled due to God allowing Satanic suggestion regarding his blessed clear recitation. In this way, he veiled them from those who he wishes to veil them from, and it's manifest to the believers because they can defeat Satanic recitation and see with wakeful hearts and reason.


Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Link on June 16, 2015, 05:18:09 AM
Allahu A'lam means God knows best or better. Allahu Alim. Means God is the knowing. They both can be used.

I speak Arabic, it was the first language I learned.

Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Khaled on June 16, 2015, 05:41:19 AM
It's both. They are veiled due to God allowing Satanic suggestion regarding his blessed clear recitation. In this way, he veiled them from those who he wishes to veil them from, and it's manifest to the believers because they can defeat Satanic recitation and see with wakeful hearts and reason.

So I'm not a believer?

Also, how come you didn't address the verses I quoted it
Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Khaled on June 16, 2015, 05:42:15 AM
Allahu A'lam means God knows best or better. Allahu Alim. Means God is the knowing. They both can be used.

I speak Arabic, it was the first language I learned.

Wrong, الله عالم means God is knowing, not the Knowing, that would be الله العالم.

Are you sure you know Arabic?
Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Furkan on June 16, 2015, 10:43:35 AM
Anyway,

May Allah guide you
Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Al Dukhan on June 16, 2015, 08:59:04 PM
^Aameen ! ;-)
Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Hani on June 17, 2015, 07:16:41 PM
I need to remember to come back to this thread and easily refute (Insha-Allah) all the shaky arguments with my demonic dark solid arguments. Like just by reading the first sentence I see a lot of material to refute.

(PS, bro Link try not to sound like a Christian preacher with all those expressions like dark demonic powers and whatever...)
Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Hani on June 20, 2015, 09:16:25 PM
Okay let's reply to this long useless post.


You wrote:



Quote
Hani, if it means kinship/closeness between himself and qurasyh, it would not be the path towards God nor would it be a central way of showing appreciation to the message. Plus other verses show it's a reminder to the alameen.


Who said it's a path towards god? We're telling you he's saying that he doesn't ask for any wage but requests them to treat him as he deserves to be treated because of his tie of closeness to them.



Quote
If it was closeness to God, it would say "to God" or otherwise it is against convention of language to assume it meant that as opposed to kin.


No it's not against the language, that's like saying لَّمَسْجِدٌ أُسِّسَ عَلَى التَّقْوَىٰ مِنْ أَوَّلِ يَوْمٍ أَحَقُّ أَن تَقُومَ فِيهِ he doesn't need to say "Wa Taqwa Allah" because the meaning is understood. Similarly, al-Qurba could be referring to closeness and nearness to Allah as stated by the scholars who know better Arabic than yourself.



Quote
Fel means in, and it doesn't change the meaning. You are making up stuff.


Maybe then you should refer to Zamakhshari's book where this is raised and addressed as an issue. Rather it is you who doesn't understand what the heck he's talking about. Dhawi al-Qurba means "Those of close-relation" but this isn't what was said, what was said is "Except love in closeness" that can be also understood in Arabic as "Except love due to closeness" or "for the sake of closeness".



Quote
If it meant closeness to believers to one another it would of said that, otherwise, assuming all these invisible words in brackets doesn't make sense.


It can easily be understood in clear Arabic that he's talking about the closeness between himself and Quraysh without any words in brackets so I don't think you know what you're talking about.



Quote

It would be deceptive of God to mean anything but the family of Mohammad and we see in other verses thul-qurba refers to family of Mohammad so it makes sense it's the same kin.


Deceptive? Or maybe you just don't understand simple Arabic. How many vague verses do you folks quote and attribute to `Ali based on invisible words? What about Ayat-ul-Tathir and the verse of Muwalat? When will you folks quite your dumb double standards in everything?


Secondly, the expression here is NOT "Dhul-Qurba" it's only "fil-Qurba", which is VERY different according to the Arabic tongue. We wouldn't be having this discussion if the words "Dhul-Qurba" were written.



Quote
The attribute of it being normal kin doesn't make sense as some relatives can be astray nor would there love be necessarily taking a path to God if they were normal people. It makes sense because it's a path to God and a way of showing appreciation to the message and religion of God, that whoever these people are they are a central position in Islam.




I thought you were against words in brackets, yet here not only do you explain it as relatives, but you also pick who those relatives are. Is this all not in brackets, or are you using the hidden Imam's special Qur'an?


Didn't you just complain about brackets here:


Quote
For example you stated it can mean closeness to believers to Prophet or to each other, or it can mean to God. So none of these meanings can be derived from the text itself, and you are saying it can be one of these meanings, the fact that you say these various meanings can be it is all because you are assuming it's ok to assume hidden words in brackets with no context giving it.


And by the way, you're wrong as all of these can be understood without brackets. The verse only mentions two words and if translated literally "Mawaddah" meaning love/closeness, and "Fil-Qurbah" meaning due to closeness/nearness. This is open to plenty of interpretations according to Arabic grammar.


Quote
and God could of easily stated those words


Just as he could easily state `Ali's name, or mention that we have to be ruled by 12 men, or that so and so is infallible etc... Yet none of this is mentioned so live with it.


Heck even if we go as far as to take your interpretation:


{except love for the kinsfolk}


This also not necessarily means what you intend for it to mean, as this phrase above can also be comfortably understood as him asking them to show love for him as they are kinsfolk.


As for this verse which you keep bringing up:


{Say, "I do not ask of you for it any payment - only that whoever wills might take to his Lord a way."}[25:57]


This verse is talking about spending wealth for Allah's cause. He (saw) is telling them he doesn't require nor seek anyone's wealth or material possession, but those who wish to spend it for the sake of their Lord may do so.


I wonder how many words in brackets do you need to link this to your 12 Imams; last I saw you needed an entire paragraph to link it and explain it.


Quote
Therefore it makes sense the twelve months although literal are also a parable towards the upright religion, and this is a parable in Quran showing his family has twelve Imams


What are you, a Batini esoteric Isma`ili now!? Please shower us with the secret knowledge you extract from your blessed pockets.



Quote
Hani, the main difference is that I see that there is only one possible meaning by the words themselves and the impression it gives, while, you are saying it can have various meanings with invisible words assumed. I don't think God would say things ambiguously like that with many meanings and then we have to take an opinion of a companion to mean one of those meanings with invisible words without even having the Rasool explain it according to you guys.


I'm surprised you're complaining about invisible words when your posts show you have inserted invisible paragraphs. If you don't think it can have several meanings, then go revise your Arabic and learn the science of Tafsir while you're at it. As for God saying things "ambiguously" your post is the biggest evidence that he says things ambiguously, 12 months being in reference to Imams!? The "Way" being the 12 Imams!? The "closeness" being the 12 Imams!? Well if you believe Allah is so clear about things as you keep repeating, why didn't He save us time and say "And obey the 12 leaders appointed over you."





Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Hani on June 20, 2015, 09:36:49 PM
Your next fantastic post starts with this:


Quote
I think God out of wisdom didn't want to force people to accept the 12 Imams. So he put the family of Mohammad, their divine authority, and their number, in a way, that not everyone sees them and a people who see them can still deny.


That's a dumb religion I'd rather worship a tree stump, what kind of god sends a book of guidance but makes the most essential means of guidance hidden and unclear so as to not "force people" to believe in 12 Imams!? This opposes God's wisdom in the Qur'an where He directly tells people without forcing them and offers them a chance to believe or disbelieve:


{And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve."}[18:29]


Then you write:


Quote
I think this was out of wisdom to


1) Preserve the Quran without forcing people to not corrupt it through supernatural means.


Keep following the dumb arguments of your scholars and we'll see where it leads you. So Allah hid the guidance so that people may not corrupt the book, wow how counter-productive is this!? He shouldn't have criticized the Christians, Jews and Pagans while at it out of fear that they may corrupt the Book as well. This is a weak god incapable of keeping his promise of preserving his clear religion. I wonder why scholars of Hadith narrated Hadith al-Ghadir and Hadith al-Manzilah with Tawatur, they could've corrupted those as well. You Shiites always say these two texts are explicit appointments for `Ali, yet your opponents (Ahlul-Sunnah) narrate them with Tawatur and without crossing `Ali's name. So if they didn't remove `Ali's name from a Hadith, you think Allah's afraid they may corrupt His book and remove `Ali's name from a Qur'anic verse? Let alone verses that are talking about love here, this isn't a verse of appointment, it's only about loving these individuals as you claim.



Quote
2) Have Ahlulbayt as a trial.


They can't be a trial if their significance isn't made clear in Allah's book. If Allah were to say in his book "Obey `Ali and his eleven descendants" then they become a trial, but to completely and purposely ignore them (out of fear of Tahreef) and then place them as a trial is injustice.


Quote
3) If the number of Imams was explicit in Quran and not in a form of parable, then I think we would of have had various sects claiming twelve Imams and twelve successors, and there is a chance there would a different fabricated set of names of the 12 Imams...that this matter would be ultra confusing for later generations.

This has got to be your most illogical comment yet. So you're argument is that god intentionally kept things vague so that not many people may exploit them and claim them for themselves.

Wisdom dictates the exact opposite!! In fact, if this was true Allah should have explicitly and clearly stated their names so that no other frauds or imitators may claim leadership unjustly.

I add, it was exploited either way..


Read this from our old friends at ahlelbayt.com:



Hadith Exploited by Deviant Sects


A fact unknown to lay-persons is that the Hadith of the twelve Caliphs is exploited by not only the Imami Shia but by many other deviant sects. Interestingly, many of these deviant sects have a more convincing argument for their claims over that of the Imami Shia! For example, the Ibaadis–the descendants of the Khawaarij–use the Hadith of twelve Caliphs in order to validate the claims of their leaders, who were twelve in number. The Ibaadis claim that this Hadith is a “shining proof” for their twelve Caliphs, which include: Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه), Umar (رضّى الله عنه), Abdullah ibn Yahya al-Kindi, and the nine Ibaadi Imams of the Rustamid Dynasty.


It is interesting that the racist cult known as the Nation of Islam, headed by Elijah Muhammad, also uses the hadith of the twelve Caliphs in order to validate their sect. Elijah Muhammad, their supposed Messenger, claimed that their founder, W.D. Fard, was one of the twelve Imams:


Now there are twelve (12) Imams or Scientists, who have been ruling all the time, and one of the twelve is always greater than the other eleven (11)


(Muhammad Speaks Newspaper)


If a deviant group like the Nation of Islam can use the hadith of the twelve Caliphs, then we are not at all surprised when the twelver Shias use it as as a “proof”. Another deviant sect which did in fact lay claim to the Hadith of the twelve Caliphs and use it to bring themselves to power were the Zaydis. We read:


The Zaydites also used these traditions (Hadith) in their attempts to gain control


(The Occultation of the Twelfth Imam: A Historical Background, by Dr. Jassim M. Hussain, p.154)


A group from amongst the Zaydis revered twelve Imams, but they believed in a different set of twelve Imams than the Imami Shia. These Zaydis believed in the first four of the Imams of the Imami Shia, but they disagreed with the Imami Shia as to who the other eight of them were. This group of Zaydis, like the Sunnis, believed that the Caliphate was not limited to twelve, but the Zaydis argued that the twelfth would be Al-Qa’im and he would lead an armed and political insurrection. A similar view was held by another heretical sect, namely that of the Ismailis who used the Hadith of the twelve Caliphs in order to further their own set of Imams. And there were many other deviant groups who used the Hadith of the twelve Caliphs–and other Hadith in regards to Imam Mehdi–in order to bring themselves to power. We read:


(These traditions were used by) numerous Islamic groups, particularly the Zaydites, in their struggle for power during the Umayyad period (which) shows that these traditions (Hadith) were well-known among the Muslims of that period.


(The Occultation of the Twelfth Imam: A Historical Background, by Dr. Jassim M. Hussain, p.18)


So we see that the Hadith of the twelve Caliphs and others like it were well-known by all Muslims back then and that deviant groups often used them in order to advance themselves politically. We read:


But political rivalry amongst the Muslims encouraged some people to exploit this hope and to distort these Prophetic traditions (Hadith) in order to use them in their struggle for power.


(The Occultation of the Twelfth Imam: A Historical Background, by Dr. Jassim M. Hussain, p.18)


We read:


The Prophetic traditions concerning the twelve Imams related by the Sunnite and the Zaydite traditionists were also narrated by the Imamites. They applied these traditions to their twelve Imams and added traditions of the Imams themselves.


(The Occultation of the Twelfth Imam: A Historical Background, by Dr. Jassim M. Hussain, p.21)


And we read, right from the mouth of this Shia historian himself, the following:


These traditions (Hadith) were used by many Shi’ite groups to back up the claims of their leaders who aspired to power


(The Occultation of the Twelfth Imam: A Historical Background, by Dr. Jassim M. Hussain, p.2)


The Hadith of the twelve Caliphs is so vague and obscure that it allows almost any group to exploit it and use it to further their own cause; it simply necessitates allocating a group of twelve leaders and then saying that the Hadith refers to them. We read:


This obscurity allowed some ‘Alids to use these traditions (Hadith) to support their own political aims


(The Occultation of the Twelfth Imam: A Historical Background, by Dr. Jassim M. Hussain, p.154)


The exploitation of this Hadith was not at all limited to Imami Shia. We read:


Like the Imamites, the Ismailis had reported the (same) Prophetic traditions (Hadith)…however, they interpreted some of these traditions (Hadith) in a manner which would support their struggle to gain immediate success in North Africa. Furthermore they applied other traditions (Hadith) narrated by the Imamites about al-Qa’im al-Mahdi to their own concealed leader


(The Occultation of the Twelfth Imam: A Historical Background, by Dr. Jassim M. Hussain, p.111)


The Hadith was also exploited by a group known as the Qaramita. We read:


The Qaramita’s use of the Prophetic traditions (Hadith)…in their struggle to gain immediate political success…


(The Occultation of the Twelfth Imam: A Historical Background, by Dr. Jassim M. Hussain, p.116)


In fact, it was not only the Hadith of the twelve Caliphs which were exploited by the Shia but also many other Hadith which prophecized the coming of Imam Mehdi. We read:


He also traces the use of the prophetic traditions (Hadith) regarding al-Qa’im al-Mahdi by these groups in their struggle for power


(The Occultation of the Twelfth Imam: A Historical Background, by Dr. Jassim M. Hussain, p.11)


We read further:


Between the years 245-260/859-874 the Imamite and Zaydite traditionists were relating traditions stating that al-Qa’im would be the twelfth Imam and urging people to join his side when he rose.


(The Occultation of the Twelfth Imam: A Historical Background, by Dr. Jassim M. Hussain, p.29)


On numerous occassions did groups of Shia exploit the Sunni Hadith in order to claim for themselves political supremacy. We read:


The spread of such narrations (Hadith) encouraged the Imamites to expect the rise of al-Qa’im in the near future and to link his rising with Abbasid rule. Some of them applied these traditions (Hadith) along with others concerning the signs of the rise of al-Qa’im to the circumstances surrounding the ‘Alid revolt which broke out in 250/864. Ibn ‘Uqba relates that the leader of the rebellion, Yahya b. Umar, was expected to be al-Qa’im al-Mahdi, since all the signs concerning the rise of al-Qa’im al-Mahdi related by al-Sadiq occurred during the revolt.


(The Occultation of the Twelfth Imam: A Historical Background, by Dr. Jassim M. Hussain, p.29)


We read further:


It appears, however, that the Abbasid oppression did not deter the Shi’ite ambition to reach power. Many historians like al-Isfahani report that ‘Alid revolts broke out in 250-1/864-5 in the areas of Kufa, Tabaristan, Rayy, Qazwin, Egypt, and Hijaz. These might have been directed by one group, or to be more accurate, by one leader. It is beyond the scope of this work to deal with the details of these revolts, but it is worth mentioning that the rebels employed the Prophetic traditions (Hadith) concerning al-Qa’im al-Mahdi and the signs of his rising to achieve immediate political success.


(The Occultation of the Twelfth Imam: A Historical Background, by Dr. Jassim M. Hussain, p.52)


This game of playing with Hadith was also played by Caliph al-Mansoor, who named his son “Muhammad al-Mahdi”. We read:


Moreover he (Caliph al-Mansoor) invested his successor Muhammad with the epithet “al-Mahdi” in order to turn the attention of his subjects from the ‘Alid family toward the family of Abbas.


(The Occultation of the Twelfth Imam: A Historical Background, by Dr. Jassim M. Hussain, p.28)


Elaborating on this point, the Shia author states:


It is reported that the Prophet said, “The Mahdi is from my progeny. His name is similar to mine.” (al-Tirmidhi)…perhaps al-Mansur took this point into account when he called his son, “Muhammad al-Mahdi” (al-Bidaya)


(The Occultation of the Twelfth Imam: A Historical Background, by Dr. Jassim M. Hussain, p.165)


What is interesting is that at first many of the Shia referred to Hasan al-Askari’s mysterious son by the name “Ali” as opposed to “Muhammad”. However, the Shia later decided to switch to “Muhammad” so that it would more fully apply to the mainstream Muslim collection of Hadith which state that Muhammad is the name of Imam Mehdi. We read:


They thought that he (the eleventh Imam) had left a successor whose name was not Muhammad but Ali. They said that al-Askari had no son except Ali, who had been seen by his father’s trustworthy followers.


(The Occultation of the Twelfth Imam: A Historical Background, by Dr. Jassim M. Hussain, p.63)


So we see that the Imami Shia were very adamant about lining up their beliefs so that they would find legitimacy in Sunni Hadith. It is therefore all too convenient that the Shia can now point to these Hadith as some sort of proof for Shi’ism.

Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Aba AbdAllah on September 21, 2015, 10:57:41 AM
Maybe then you should refer to Zamakhshari's book where this is raised and addressed as an issue. Rather it is you who doesn't understand what the heck he's talking about. Dhawi al-Qurba means "Those of close-relation" but this isn't what was said, what was said is "Except love in closeness" that can be also understood in Arabic as "Except love due to closeness" or "for the sake of closeness"..
Brother Hani can you that excerpt from Zamakhshari's Tafseer, where he raised this issue and addressed it?
Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Aba AbdAllah on October 04, 2015, 10:40:30 AM
Maybe then you should refer to Zamakhshari's book where this is raised and addressed as an issue. Rather it is you who doesn't understand what the heck he's talking about. Dhawi al-Qurba means "Those of close-relation" but this isn't what was said, what was said is "Except love in closeness" that can be also understood in Arabic as "Except love due to closeness" or "for the sake of closeness"..
Brother Hani could you please quote that excerpt from Zamakhshari's Tafseer, where he raised this issue and addressed it?

Bump

Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Hani on October 05, 2015, 04:04:30 AM
Check either him or al-Razi. here http://www.altafsir.com/
Title: Re: The Qurba to love - the wage of the message
Post by: Khaled on October 05, 2015, 07:55:53 PM
I was wondering why Link/StruggingForTheLight stopped posting here; I guess I must've missed Hani's replies