The Twelve Captains.

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Claim:

1. Chosen Guides in the past came as groups associated with one another in their mission.

2. They were in the past over all Prophets because of the benefit of God revealing revelations with them from himself to humanity.

3. They came in groups of 13 Men, each Guide had 12 Guides with him, whether they preceded them or came after them (for 11/13 it would be a combination of that).

Proof through reason:

It makes sense that God would he founds a nation, confirms the truth and true way to see his revelation, and follows up with guidance.  It makes sense that he increases clarification and deepens the knowledge of people through a succession of guides. Now, this has two possibilities: either God does this with a non-consistent number or does with a consistent number. What is for certain, is that, every people would need clarification for the number of successors that follow up the founding Messenger. It makes more sense and is more eloquent of God to then put a consistent number. The only number we find that there is consistency to is 12.

Proof through Quran:

The day God completed the religion (5:3) and conveyed an essential revelation for the message (5:67) is alluded to by the Mastership of God and his Messenger (5:55). In midst of this, all we are reminded of "Twelve" "Captains", in verse 5:12 and alongside that it was emphasized to honor and help the Messengers.  All the emphasis on Twelve in Quran is revealed emphasize that the people of Israel had twelve doors to enter by, twelve gates, twelve rivers to quench their thirst, and with the theme of the boats in Quran, and the words of Nuh "so by the name of God is it's sailing and anchoring", it comes clear that "Captains" is to emphasize there was no one else to steer this boat that sails by God's Name but these Twelve Captains after Moses in the children of Israel.  With the way it is alluded to, it is alluded in a way to put a magnifying glass on the children of Israel to emphasize on how guides and leads nations to their salvation  The allusions to twelve in every Surah there is allusion to it, it has a significant link to the true leadership of God's chosen in contrast to the fake leadership of clergy who have no right to claim authority and who misguide humanity.

In addition to all this, it mentions in verse 5:13 the state of children Israel of that covenant who continously were found treacherous in the life time of Mohammad (saw).

Proof through Sunni hadiths:

According to a hadith in Tafsir Dar Al-Manthur, that is found in Musnad Ahmad, the Prophet was asked how many successors (Caliphs) would rule this nation, and he answered: "Twelve, like that of the children of Israel."That means if anyone was asked, how many successors of Moses ruled the children of Israel, then that it would be 12. What is even more significant, is the Messenger says it in a way that implies they should know Moses was succeeded by 12 Successors who ruled the children of Israel, so it makes sense that this is verified in Quran.

According to tafsir Dar-Almanthur, by Al-Suyuti, Ibn Abbas says regarding the "Twelve Captains", "they became Prophets".  There is also a hadith that says from the Prophet, in the same book, that if children of Israel would of all succeeded had they followed Twelve Men. The author (Dar Al-Manthur) says that hadith is verified by verse 5:12.

There is also the famous hadith that there will be 12 Successors from Quraysh.

Proof in Shiite hadiths:

bn Ayash Al-Hafeth: Narrated from me Abu Ali Ahmad ibn Mohammad ibn Jaffar Al-Usooli Al-Basiri, narrated from Abdar Rahman ibn Saleh ibn Raeeda narrated from Hussain ibn Hameed ibn Rabee' narrated Al-Hamshi narrated from Mohammad Al-Khalif Al-Taataatari, narrated from Zidaan narrated from Salman:

he said I entered upon the Messenger of God one day so when he looked at me he said "O Salman God doesn't raise a Prophet or a Messenger except he makes for him Twelve Captains". Salman said: "O Messenger of God, I know this from the people of two books", The Messenger of God so then said "O Salman so do you know who are the my Twelve Captains then God chosen as Leaders after me?" He said "God and his Messenger know better", "God created me from his own light so he called me so I obeyed him, then he created Ali from my light, and called him so he obeyed him, from my light and Ali's light he created Fatima, so he called her so she obeyed him, and from my light and the light of Ali, and Fatima he created Al-Hassan and Al-Hussain. And he called them and they obeyed him. So God named us with five names from his names, so God is the Praised (Al-Mahmud) and I am Mohammad (praised),and God is Al-Ali (The Exalted) and this is Ali (exalted), and God is the Originator/Source and this is Fatima (the original nature/the origin/the source) , and God is the owner of goodness (Dul-Ehsan) and this Al-Hassan (The good) and God is the Beautiful/Beautified and this is Hussain (the beautiful). Then God created from us and from the light of Hussain nine leaders so he called them and they obeyed him before God created a vast sky or spread earth or water or wind or a moral, we were in his knowledge lights who glorified him and who listened to him and obeyed him."....

The hadith goes on and one of things stated by the Messenger of God is there is no faith without knowing their names, and he names them all to Salman.


Question:

Are there any hadiths that suggest Twelve Captains were not Prophets or were not successors to Moses in either Sunni or Shiite sources?

[Rationalist]

Question:

Are there any hadiths that suggest Twelve Captains were not Prophets or were not successors to Moses in either Sunni or Shiite sources?

First you need to understand is that the 12 were chosen during the lifetime of Prophet Musa (as). Secondly, Prophet Harun (as) wasn't one of them, neither was Yashu bin Nuh. On the contrary, with Imamate in the 12er Shia belief it comes one after the other. So in reality you are using analogy and ironically Imam Jafar in the 12er Shia books cursed those who use anology in the matters of deen which they try to make binding on others.

Also, in the 12er Shia belief, the imams you numbered 9-12 all became Imamate at childhood age. Whereas the 12 chiefs here were all baligh men.

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Bring a hadith to support that view.

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Question:

Are there any hadiths that suggest Twelve Captains were not Prophets or were not successors to Moses in either Sunni or Shiite sources?

Waiting...

[Rationalist]

Didn't find any hadith explaining the detail of who the 12 Chiefs were. Then again even the 12er Shia hadith don't explain name or give details to the 12 Chiefs of the Bani Israel.

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I'm not asking for detail. I'm asking any hadith that shows they were not the successors of Moses.

I've shown Shiite authentic hadith that shows that they are successors. I've shown Sunni hadiths that show they were successors as well. I also showed the view of Ibn Abbas that each of them became Prophets.

So at least bring support either from Quran or ahadith that support your view that they were contemporary people during Moses time, and not his successors.

[Rationalist]

I've shown Shiite authentic hadith that shows that they are successors. I've shown Sunni hadiths that show they were successors as well. I also showed the view of Ibn Abbas that each of them became Prophets.

Here is tafsir ibn Abbas. Where does it say they became Prophets?

Allah made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel) the acknowledgement of the Children of Israel in the Torah of Muhammad, that they shall worship none except Allah and that they shall not ascribe partners to Him (and We raised among them twelve chieftains) 12 messengers; and it is said: 12 kings, a king to each tribe: (and Allah said) to these kings: (Lo! I am with you) I will help you. (If you establish worship) if you establish the prayer which has been made obligatory upon you (and pay the poor-due) from your wealth, (and believe in) acknowledge and accept (My messengers) who are sent to you (and support them) and assist them with the sword against the enemy, (and lend unto Allah a kindly loan) genuinely from your heart, (surely I shall remit your sins) other than the enormities, (and surely I shall bring you into Gardens beneath which) beneath its trees and habitations (rivers) rivers of water, milk, wine and honey (flow. Whoso among you disbelieveth after this) after accepting and acknowledging the covenant (will go astray from a plain road) such a person has erred from the road of guidance. Nonetheless, they disbelieved except five of them.

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Ok fair enough.

So there is a report from Ibn Abbas.

At the same time I've shown:

1. Reason.
2. Quranic context.
3. Two Hadiths from Sunni sources from the Prophet confirming the meaning they are successors of Moses.
4. An authentic Shiite hadith from the Prophet confirming the meaning.

[Rationalist]

Ok fair enough.

So there is a report from Ibn Abbas.

Please post the report.

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Ok fair enough.

So there is a report from Ibn Abbas.

Please post the report.

I am saying you brought a report from Ibn Abbas that supports your view.

[Rationalist]

I am saying you brought a report from Ibn Abbas that supports your view.

Bring me the one where he says the 12 were Prophets.

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I am saying you brought a report from Ibn Abbas that supports your view.

Bring me the one where he says the 12 were Prophets.

I re-checked Al-Suyuti so I am not sure if it's Ibn Abbas who is this narrator or a different one (a person narrating from a companion?)....

وأخرج الطستي عن ابن عباس. أن نافع بن الأزرق قال له: أخبرني عن قوله عز وجل { اثني عشر نقيباً }. قال: اثني عشر وزيراً وصاروا أنبياء بعد ذلك.

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I found this Shia tafsir that confirms the view point I showed:

{ وَلَقَدْ أَخَذَ ٱللَّهُ مِيثَاقَ بَنِيۤ إِسْرَآئِيلَ } تعريض بامّة محمّد (ص) لاخذ ميثاقهم لنقيبهم الّذى هو علىّ (ع) { وَبَعَثْنَا مِنهُمُ ٱثْنَيْ عَشَرَ نَقِيباً } يأمرونهم وينهونهم { وَقَالَ ٱللَّهُ إِنِّي مَعَكُمْ } فأشاهد منكم ما تفعلون { لَئِنْ أَقَمْتُمُ ٱلصَّلاَةَ } بوصلها الى النّقباء (ع) { وَآتَيْتُمْ ٱلزَّكَاةَ } من كلّ شيءٍ حتّى من ميل قواكم الى مخالفة النّقباء (ع) { وَآمَنتُمْ بِرُسُلِي } الّذين منهم النّقباء (ع) { وَعَزَّرْتُمُوهُمْ } نصرتموهم وقوّيتموهم { وَأَقْرَضْتُمُ ٱللَّهَ قَرْضاً حَسَناً } من اصل المال بانفاقه فى سبيل الله، واصل القوى باضعافها بالعبادات والرّياضات، فانّ الزّكوة هى فضول المال الّتى هى حقّ الغير والقرض من اصل المال { لأُكَفِّرَنَّ عَنْكُمْ سَيِّئَاتِكُمْ } بزكوتكم وقرضكم { وَلأُدْخِلَنَّكُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِن تَحْتِهَا ٱلأَنْهَارُ } بصلوتكم وايمانكم وتعزيركم { فَمَن كَفَرَ بَعْدَ ذٰلِكَ } الميثاق للنّقباء (ع) والوعد عليه { مِنْكُمْ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ سَوَآءَ ٱلسَّبِيل } فتذكّروا يا امّة محمّد (ص) واوفوا بميثاقكم لعلىّ (ع) ولا تكفروا بعد الميثاق.

[Rationalist]

I am saying you brought a report from Ibn Abbas that supports your view.

Bring me the one where he says the 12 were Prophets.

I re-checked Al-Suyuti so I am not sure if it's Ibn Abbas who is this narrator or a different one (a person narrating from a companion?)....

وأخرج الطستي عن ابن عباس. أن نافع بن الأزرق قال له: أخبرني عن قوله عز وجل { اثني عشر نقيباً }. قال: اثني عشر وزيراً وصاروا أنبياء بعد ذلك.

Here is Imam Suyuti's tafsir.

God had made a covenant with the Children of Israel for what will be mentioned shortly and We raised up there is a shift of address away from the third to the first person from among them twelve leaders from each tribe one leader to be responsible for his people’s fulfilment of the covenant as a way of binding them to it. And God said to them ‘I am with you helping and assisting. Surely if la-in the lām is for oaths you establish the prayer and pay the alms and believe in My messengers and succour them help them and lend to God a goodly loan by expending in His way I will absolve you of your evil deeds and I will admit you to gardens underneath which rivers flow. So whoever of you disbelieves after that covenant surely he has strayed from the right way’ he has erred from the path to Paradise al-sawā’ originally means ‘the middle way’. And they broke the covenant.


It doesn't say that they were Prophets.

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I am saying you brought a report from Ibn Abbas that supports your view.

Bring me the one where he says the 12 were Prophets.

I re-checked Al-Suyuti so I am not sure if it's Ibn Abbas who is this narrator or a different one (a person narrating from a companion?)....

وأخرج الطستي عن ابن عباس. أن نافع بن الأزرق قال له: أخبرني عن قوله عز وجل { اثني عشر نقيباً }. قال: اثني عشر وزيراً وصاروا أنبياء بعد ذلك.

Here is Imam Suyuti's tafsir.

God had made a covenant with the Children of Israel for what will be mentioned shortly and We raised up there is a shift of address away from the third to the first person from among them twelve leaders from each tribe one leader to be responsible for his people’s fulfilment of the covenant as a way of binding them to it. And God said to them ‘I am with you helping and assisting. Surely if la-in the lām is for oaths you establish the prayer and pay the alms and believe in My messengers and succour them help them and lend to God a goodly loan by expending in His way I will absolve you of your evil deeds and I will admit you to gardens underneath which rivers flow. So whoever of you disbelieves after that covenant surely he has strayed from the right way’ he has erred from the path to Paradise al-sawā’ originally means ‘the middle way’. And they broke the covenant.


It doesn't say that they were Prophets.

That's one of the quotes from there. The one I showed is also there.

Also, in Al-Suyuti he quotes the hadith that if children of Israel followed twelve men they would all been successful, and says verse 5:12 is a proof that it is 12 men and not 10 men as the other version of the hadith says.

He also quotes the hadith that Rasool was asked how many successors would rule this nation, and the reply was "twelve, like that of children of Israel".

So yes that qoute is found in Al-Suyuti. But the quotes I quoted are also found. Including the one I just posted in post before yours, that they became Prophets.

[Rationalist]

So yes that qoute is found in Al-Suyuti. But the quotes I quoted are also found. Including the one I just posted in post before yours, that they became Prophets.

Show me the hadith where it says they were Prophets.

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So yes that qoute is found in Al-Suyuti. But the quotes I quoted are also found. Including the one I just posted in post before yours, that they became Prophets.

Show me the hadith where it says they were Prophets.

go www.altafsir.com check Al-Suyuti, I posted:


وأخرج الطستي عن ابن عباس. أن نافع بن الأزرق قال له: أخبرني عن قوله عز وجل { اثني عشر نقيباً }. قال: اثني عشر وزيراً وصاروا أنبياء بعد ذلك.

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So yes that qoute is found in Al-Suyuti. But the quotes I quoted are also found. Including the one I just posted in post before yours, that they became Prophets.

Show me the hadith where it says they were Prophets.

If you are refering to ahadith from the Prophet.

There is hadith in either Bukhari or Muslim (I forget which one), which says the Bani-Israel use to be ruled by Prophets so when one died, the other took his place. Then said we would not have Prophets but we would have successors, and they would increase in number.

Now we know by other hadiths, the number for both is Twelve. And so "increase in number" should be interpreted to not get a contradiction as in "the present successors are not Twelve, but they will increase in number till they are twelve".

The other hadith from Al-Suyuti is that Bani-Israel would of been successful had they follow just 12 Men.

And one hadith asks how many successors ruled this nation and it was said "twelve, like that of Bani-Israel".

You put them all together, and you gather....

That some of the successors of Mohammad were alive out of the 12 during his time, but not all, but rather they would increase in number till 12.

And you can get by implication, "if the nation before us is indication that we will be ruled by 12 because they were ruled by 12 successors, then the same logic applies to Bani-Israel, that before them a chosen family had a founder and 12 successors, and by implication, all chosen families come in groups of 13 and every chosen leader has a group of 12 men with him that are his captains associated with him. Hence the hadith, "God doesn't send Messenger or Prophet except with him are Twelve Captains" is proven.

And in fact, 5:12 makes sense to be telling the people of the book, they too were given an exact number of successors, and it was clear, and there is many signs of this they still have from Aeron's clothes and the covenant with Aeron and his offspring....to the Twelve Lion Sculputres and the Twelve stones Elyas gathered for his miracle, and the Twelve rivers....they all signify that 12 was significant though the corruption of the devils tried to make solely about the tribes of Israel......

Almost all religions hold "twelve" to be sacred but don't apply it to succession. Actually, the most rational and needed number is the number of successors and to know the exact number of Leaders we have to follow in a chosen family!

[Rationalist]

So yes that qoute is found in Al-Suyuti. But the quotes I quoted are also found. Including the one I just posted in post before yours, that they became Prophets.

Show me the hadith where it says they were Prophets.

go www.altafsir.com check Al-Suyuti, I posted:


وأخرج الطستي عن ابن عباس. أن نافع بن الأزرق قال له: أخبرني عن قوله عز وجل { اثني عشر نقيباً }. قال: اثني عشر وزيراً وصاروا أنبياء بعد ذلك.

I searched and I could not find it.

This is what Imam Suyuti's tafsir says on the website.

{ وَلَقَدْ أَخَذَ ٱللَّهُ مِيثَاقَ بَنِيۤ إِسْرَآئِيلَ وَبَعَثْنَا مِنهُمُ ٱثْنَيْ عَشَرَ نَقِيباً وَقَالَ ٱللَّهُ إِنِّي مَعَكُمْ لَئِنْ أَقَمْتُمُ ٱلصَّلٰوةَ وَآتَيْتُمُ ٱلزَّكَاةَ وَآمَنتُمْ بِرُسُلِي وَعَزَّرْتُمُوهُمْ وَأَقْرَضْتُمُ ٱللَّهَ قَرْضاً حَسَناً لأُكَفِّرَنَّ عَنْكُمْ سَيِّئَاتِكُمْ وَلأُدْخِلَنَّكُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِن تَحْتِهَا ٱلأَنْهَارُ فَمَن كَفَرَ بَعْدَ ذٰلِكَ مِنْكُمْ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ سَوَآءَ ٱلسَّبِيلِ }

God had made a covenant with the Children of Israel for what will be mentioned shortly and We raised up there is a shift of address away from the third to the first person from among them twelve leaders from each tribe one leader to be responsible for his people’s fulfilment of the covenant as a way of binding them to it. And God said to them ‘I am with you helping and assisting. Surely if la-in the lām is for oaths you establish the prayer and pay the alms and believe in My messengers and succour them help them and lend to God a goodly loan by expending in His way I will absolve you of your evil deeds and I will admit you to gardens underneath which rivers flow. So whoever of you disbelieves after that covenant surely he has strayed from the right way’ he has erred from the path to Paradise al-sawā’ originally means ‘the middle way’. And they broke the covenant.

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Look harder. I copy pasted it from there.