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The two 'feet' of Allah are between his creation?

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whoaretheshia

Re: The two 'feet' of Allah are between his creation?
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2017, 09:31:27 PM »
To the Salafi Athari brothers here, this is a serious and fundamental aspect of your Aqeedah. Why are there so few coming to defend it?
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whoaretheshia

Re: The two 'feet' of Allah are between his creation?
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2017, 09:51:58 PM »
I have to leave Shia Islam, over conflicting traditions on Rabbit meat, despite almost all our Fuqaha agreeing upon the fact the correct traditions can be identified and noticed clearly, whilst the sect i am to join can not agree upon the fundamental aspects of Aqeeda? I do say this with due respect, but you see my dilemma.
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" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: The two 'feet' of Allah are between his creation?
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2017, 12:32:30 AM »
4. If you affirm all of the above, which i am quite sure you have to if you are a Salafi-Athari, then you affirm part of Allah by virtue of his attributes and essence is between and in his creation, even if it is above the universe we know.
The basic Salafi Aqeedah is quite well known. Your questions are an outcome of our misunderstanding of Salafi perspective. You try to judge the Salafi Aqeedah based on our notions, which is why the result seems troublesome to you. But know the the fault is your methodology not Salafi Aqeedah.

The basic Salafi Aqeedah is that "ALLAH IS ABOVE THE THRONE", when this is said, then there remains no argument for questions like Allah is between his creations, etc. The Salafi stance is quite clear. Let me quote you the same website which you are quoting.

It was narrated that Ibn Mas’ood said: Between the first heaven and the one above it is (a distance of) five hundred years. Between each of the heavens is (a distance of) five hundred years. Between the seventh heaven and the Kursiy is (a distance of) five hundred years. Between the Kursiy and the water is (a distance of) five hundred years, and the Throne is above the water. Allaah is above the Throne, and nothing whatsoever of your deeds is hidden from Him. (narrated by Ibn Khuzaymah in al-Tawheed, p. 105; by al-Bayhaqi in al-Asmaa’ wa’l-Sifaat, p. 401).

 This report was classed as saheeh by Ibn al-Qayyim in Ijtimaa’ al-Juyoosh al-Islamiyah, p. 100; by al-Dhahabi in al-‘Uluw, p. 64).

Notice that the hadeeth doesn't say Allah is in between, but its your faulty understanding which lead you to make those faulty arguments, from which Salafis are free.

Ibn al-Qayyim said:

  If Allaah is separate from His creation, then either He is encompassing them or He is not. If He is encompassing them, then He must be above them, because that which encompasses must necessarily be above that which is encompassed. Hence because the heavens encompass the earth, they must be above it, and because the Kursiy encompasses the heavens, it must be above them, and because the Throne encompasses the Kursiy, it must be above it. Whatever encompasses all of that must necessarily be above it. This does not imply that there is physical contact with anything that He encompasses; neither is there any similarity or resemblance between Him and that which He encompasses.
(al-Sawaa’iq al-Mursalah, 4/1308)

https://islamqa.info/en/9566

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: The two 'feet' of Allah are between his creation?
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2017, 12:47:07 AM »
I have to leave Shia Islam, over conflicting traditions on Rabbit meat, despite almost all our Fuqaha agreeing upon the fact the correct traditions can be identified and noticed clearly, whilst the sect i am to join can not agree upon the fundamental aspects of Aqeeda? I do say this with due respect, but you see my dilemma.

You Must leave the Shia sect because of some major problems in it, Such as:

The belief of this sect kept evolving, which shows they were never certain, what the correct Islamic creed it. Example:

Shia Ayatullah Burujerdi wrote in Taraiful Maqal, Volume 2, Page 356
وبالجملة الظاهر أن القدماء كانوا مختلفين في المسائل الأصولية، فربما كان
شئ عند بعضهم فاسدا أو كفرا أو غلوا، وعند آخرين عدمه بل مما يجب الاعتقاد
به
And the bottom line is that it is apparent that the beliefs of the classical scholars were different, so sometimes something according to them would be invalid/corrupt, kufr (disbelief) or Ghulu, while according to the latter scholars it would not be so, in fact it would be regarded obligatory to believe in it.


Shia Allama Musa al Ihqafi al Iskoi, in his Ihqaqul Haq, Page 173 stated:

السيد علي بحر العلوم في كتاب “البرهان القاطع” في المجلد الثاني منه في صفحة (435) في آخر الصفحة قال: بكفر من يعتقد أن الأئمة يخلقون ويرزقون ويحيون ويميتون بإذن الله ومداده ومشيته، (والحال) أن في زمامننا هذا من ضروريات مذهب الأمامية، وقدرتهم على كل شيء بإذن الله ومداده ومشيته، ولم يكفه رحمه الله- هذا حتى قال: بكفر قائله وكونه من الضروري

Sayyid Ali Bahrul Uloom wrote in his book “Al Burhan al Qati’ (The definitive proof)”, in its second volume’s page 435 at the end of the page that “one who believes that the Imams (as) do takhleeq (creation of the creatures), provide rizq, give and take life by the permission of Allah (swt) and His help and will is a kafir“; while presently in our age it is among the fundamental beliefs of the Imamiyah (Shia Ithna Ash’ari) religion to have belief on their power over everything by the permission of Allah (swt) and His help and will. And he (Sayyid Bahrul Uloom) did not just stop at this, he even said that “one who advocates it or deems it among the fundamentals of the religion is a kafir.”


2. Confusions and Chaos among the Shia sects regarding the identity of Imams.  A glance at Firaq al Shia by Nawbakhti would give you an idea, what mess the Shia beliefs were in.

etc etc..

muslim720

Re: The two 'feet' of Allah are between his creation?
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2017, 12:50:34 AM »
I have to leave Shia Islam, over conflicting traditions on Rabbit meat, despite almost all our Fuqaha agreeing upon the fact the correct traditions can be identified and noticed clearly, whilst the sect i am to join can not agree upon the fundamental aspects of Aqeeda? I do say this with due respect, but you see my dilemma.

The dilemma is that you accused us of side-tracking when you are not even able to comment on the Qur'anic verses I shared with you in which Allah (swt) attributes to Himself "both hands" and "right hand".  I would not be surprised - and I say this after having many sit-ins at Shia mosques and gatherings - if you did not even know about them until I brought them to your attention.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 12:52:09 AM by muslim720 »

muslim720

Re: The two 'feet' of Allah are between his creation?
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2017, 12:54:02 AM »
Also as is apparent from the verse itself linguistically (review Tabari's explanation) it's possible to deduce that what Ibn `Abbas was doing is to explain what a Kursi is according to Arabs as is the habit of all exegisists/Mufassirin.

Honestly, that was exactly the first thought that came to my mind; that Ibn Abbas (ra) was explaining the Kursi.  However, with little research on the narration and not knowing Arabic, I figured it is best I don't comment.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: The two 'feet' of Allah are between his creation?
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2017, 01:05:55 AM »
Like Ahlesunnah even Imam Abul Hasan(ra)[8th Imam] affirmed the attributes of Allah without likening.

A. Narrated Kulayni in his “al-Kafi” 1/100-101:
محمد بن أبي عبد الله عن محمد بن إسماعيل عن الحسين بن الحسن عن بكر بن صالح عن الحسن بن سعيد عن إبراهيم بن محمد الخزاز ومحمد بن الحسين قالا: دخلنا على أبي الحسن الرضا ع فحكينا له أن محمد صلى الله عليه وآله رأى ربه في صورة الشاب الموفق في سن أبناء ثلاثين سنة وقلنا: إن هشام بن سالم وصاحب الطاق و الميثمي يقولون: إنه أجوف إلى السرة والبقية صمد؟ فخر ساجدا لله ثم قال: سبحانك ما عرفوك ولا وحدوك فمن أجل ذلك وصفوك سبحانك لو عرفوك لوصفوك بما وصفت به نفسك سبحانك كيف طاوعتهم أنفسهم أن يشبهوك بغيرك اللهم لا أصفك إلا بما وصفت به نفسك ولا أشبهك بخلقك أنت أهل لكل خير فلا تجعلني من القوم الظالمين ثم التفت إلينا فقال: ما توهمتم من شيء فتوهموا الله غيره ثم قال: نحن آل محمد النمط الأوسط الذي لا يدركنا الغالي ولا يسبقنا التالي يا محمد إن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله حين نظر إلى عظمة ربه كان في هيئة الشاب الموفق وسن أبناء ثلاثين سنة يا محمد عظم ربي عز وجل أن يكون في صفة المخلوقين قال قلت: جعلت فداك من كانت رجلاه في خضرة؟ قال: ذاك محمد كان إذا نظر إلى ربه بقلبه جعله في نور مثل نور الحجب حتى يستبين له ما في الحجب إن نور الله منه أخضر ومنه أحمر ومنه أبيض ومنه غير ذلك يا محمد ما شهد له الكتاب والسنة فنحن القائلون به .

Muhammad ibn abu ‘Abdallah has narrated from Muhammad ibn Isma‘il from al-Husayn ibn al-Hassan from Bakr ibn Salih from al-Hassan ibn Sa‘id from Ibrahim ibn Muhammad al-Khazzaz and Muhammad ibn al-Husayn they both have said the following,  “We met Imam abu abu al-Hassan al-Rida (a.s.) and stated to him that Prophet Muhammad (s.a.) saw His Lord in the fashion of a full grown young man of thirty years and added that Hisham ibn Salim and Sahib al-Taq and al-Maythami say that He is hallow down to His navel and the rest is solid. The Imam bowed down to a prostrating position and then said, ‘(O Lord), Glory belongs to you they have not recognized You nor have they acknowledged Your Oneness thus, they attribute to You such things. (O Lord, Glory belongs to You, had they recognized You they would have attributed to You what you yourself have attributed to Yourself and they would not have considered You similar to things other than You. O Lord, I do not attribute to You anything other than what You have attributed to Yourself and do not consider You similar to Your creatures. To You belongs all good. Do not place me among the unjust ones.’ The Imam (a.s.) then turned to us saying, “Whatever you may imagine (make Wahm of) consider Allah some thing other than it.” He continued, ‘We, people of the family of the Prophet (s.a.), are the middle type and the criteria. Those who exceed can not catch up with us and those who follow can not go ahead of us. O Muhammad, when the messenger of Allah looked at the greatness of his Lord he was of the type of people as fully grown up as thirty years old people. O Muhammad, my Lord, the Majestic, the Glorious, is far greater than to be of the qualities of the creatures.” The narrator has said that I said, “May the Lord take my soul for your service, who was the one with his feet in the green?” The Imam said, “He was Prophet Muhammad (s.a.) when looked at his Lord with his heart He placed him in the light like that of the Hujub so he can see what is inside the Hujub. Of the light of Allah some are green, red, white and others. O Muhammad whatever has confirmation in the book and the Sunnah “we affirm it”.”[ This hadith is graded muwaththaq(reliable) by al-Majlisi in his book Mirat ul uqool: (1st hadith)

Same report was transmitted by Saduq in Tawhid p 113 via his own chain:
13 – حدثنا علي بن أحمد بن محمد بن عمران الدقاق رضي الله عنه، قال: حدثنا محمد بن أبي عبد الله الكوفي، عن محمد بن إسماعيل البرمكي، عن الحسين ابن الحسن، عن بكر بن صالح، عن الحسين بن سعيد (2) عن إبراهيم بن محمد الخزاز، ومحمد بن الحسين، قالا: دخلنا على أبي الحسن الرضا عليه السلام فحكينا له ما روي أن محمدا صلى الله عليه وآله رأى ربه في هيئة الشاب الموفق في سن ابناء ثلاثين سنة رجلاه في خضرة

Comment: Like Ahlesunnah even Shia Imam preached the same beliefs of affirming the attributes of Allah which Allah himself have affirmed for him in his book and sunnah. Without consider that those attributes are similar to the creation, this is the creed of people on middle course i.e Ahlesunnah wal Jama’ah.

B. Ibn Babaweyh al-Qummi narrated in his book “At-Tawhid” (p 100-101):

حدثنا محمد بن الحسن بن أحمد بن الوليد قال: حدثنا محمد بن يحيى العطار قال: حدثنا محمد بن أحمد قال: حدثنا محمد بن عيسى عن هشام بن إبراهيم قال: قال العباسي قلت له يعني أبا الحسن ع: جعلت فداك أمرني بعض مواليك أن أسألك عن مسألة قال: ومن هو؟ قلت: الحسن بن سهل قال: في أي شئ المسألة؟ قال: قلت في التوحيد قال: وأي شئ من التوحيد؟ قال: يسألك عن الله جسم أو لا جسم ؟ قال : فقال لي: إن للناس في التوحيد ثلاثة مذاهب مذهب إثبات بتشبيه و مذهب النفي ومذهب إثبات بلا تشبيه. فمذهب الاثبات بتشبيه لا يجوز ومذهب النفي لا يجوز والطريق في المذهب الثالث إثبات بلا تشبيه

(Chain) Abbasi said: “I said to him – it’s mean to Abul Hasan (alaihi salam) : “May I be your ransom, some of your mawaliya ordered me to ask your about issue”. He asked: “And who is that?”. I said: “al-Hasan ibn Sahl”. He said: “And what is issue about?”. I said: “About Tawhid”. He asked: “And what about tawhid?”  I said: “Question you about Allah, is He jism or not jism?”. And he (imam) said to me: “People in question of tawhid divided in 3 mazahib. (1) Mazhab isbat bi tashbih (accept and likening), (2) mazhab nafyi (rejection) and (3) mazhab isbat bila tashbih (accept without likening) . And mazhab isbat bi tashbih isn’t permitted, and mazhab an-nafyi isn’t permitted, the (correct) way in the 3-d mazhab isbat bila tashbih(accept without likening)

Taken from:
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2011/09/23/part-1the-imams-from-ahlebayt-whom-shia-consider-to-be-their-divinely-appointed-imams-were-on-the-creed-of-ahlesunnah-wal-jamaah/

whoaretheshia

Re: The two 'feet' of Allah are between his creation?
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2017, 08:58:40 PM »
Honestly, that was exactly the first thought that came to my mind; that Ibn Abbas (ra) was explaining the Kursi.  However, with little research on the narration and not knowing Arabic, I figured it is best I don't comment.

Let me just make it clear brother, this is not the view accepted by the Salafi-Athari scholars, but is an interpretation that leans heavily towards the Ashari and Maturidi, who the owners of this website consider to be deviants in Aqeedah and innovators.
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whoaretheshia

Re: The two 'feet' of Allah are between his creation?
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2017, 09:08:13 PM »
The basic Salafi Aqeedah is quite well known. Your questions are an outcome of our misunderstanding of Salafi perspective. You try to judge the Salafi Aqeedah based on our notions, which is why the result seems troublesome to you. But know the the fault is your methodology not Salafi Aqeedah.

With respect, the onus is on you to demonstrate what i have mentioned here is incorrect.

Quote
The basic Salafi Aqeedah is that "ALLAH IS ABOVE THE THRONE", when this is said, then there remains no argument for questions like Allah is between his creations, etc. The Salafi stance is quite clear. Let me quote you the same website which you are quoting.
Quote

I am well aware that the Salafi-Atharis attribute position and location to Allah (a literal position) , which has been refuted by the majority of scholars who have historically been of the orthodox Sunni groups (Ashari and Maturidi). However, this does not answer any of the points i have raised.

Quote
Notice that the hadeeth doesn't say Allah is in between, but its your faulty understanding which lead you to make those faulty arguments, from which Salafis are free.

You have to again demonstrate how then, the two feet of Allah can be above his Kursiy? With respect, the same Salafi-Athari scholars who claim Allah is above his throne and has a literal direction also claim that he has two feet (but not like ours) and that these two feet are literally above the Kursiy, which is below the Arsh.

Please demonstrate whether or not believing Allah has two feet, and that his two feet are above the Kursiy (which as your scholars state, is the literal place of the two feet).  So you must answer  brother, whether or not the two feet of Allah are literally above his foot-stool or not? If yes, then explain how this does not contradict the idea that part of the essence of Allah is between the Arsh and the Kursiyy, while the remainder of him is above the Arsh?

I have read the words of Ibn al-Qayyim and other Salafi-Athari scholars, however, there is nothing new here, nor anything that addresses the point i am making. The problem with the Salafi-Athari Aqeedah is that it has a significant number of internal contradictions. The way you get around this is by ignoring it.
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" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: The two 'feet' of Allah are between his creation?
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2017, 09:28:01 PM »
With respect, the onus is on you to demonstrate what i have mentioned here is incorrect.
The argument was based on your misunderstanding. Hence, sharing the right understanding was needed, this is what done in Reply#22.

whoaretheshia

Re: The two 'feet' of Allah are between his creation?
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2017, 09:42:01 PM »
The argument was based on your misunderstanding. Hence, sharing the right understanding was needed, this is what done in Reply#22.

Brother, you have not answered the other points i made made in the previous post. Unfortunately they have all appeared as quotes, and this website does not permit me to edit them. I essentially told you the following:

1. I have read the works of Ibn Uthaymeen and Ibn Taymiyyah and a number of well respected Salafi-Athari scholars. Works including: Explanation of Aqeedatul Hamawiyyah - Ibn Uthaymeen, . Sharh Aqeedah Al Wasitiyah , and a number of other well known books. Demonstrating to me the Salafi-Athari belief that Allah is above his throne is not something i was ignorant off, as i know the Salafi-Atharis attribute location and position and direction to the Almighty. Furthermore i know debating you on this particular issue will be of no use, given you believe it and refuse to allow any form of rationality in this issue. Suffice to say the majority of the Ummah i.e the Ashari, Maturidi, and the Shia have refuted the Salafi-Athari Aqeedah on this issue and other issues pertaining to the attributes many times over.

2. You have only repeated scholarly statements which state that Allah is above his throne. I knew this, and it is common knowledge. What i wanted you to do is to demonstrate to me how this was consistent with your belief Allah (swt) has two feet, and those two feet as per authentic narrations are above the foot-stool ? If the two feet of Allah (swt) are parts his attributes and essence, and if he literally has two feet, and thus, if he two feet are above the Kursiy, than do you not believe part of Allah is between the Arsh and Kursiy? It is really as simple as that. You won't have any answer for this, because it is an enormous internal contradiction. The way out i have seen , with the utmost respect, for most Salafi-Atharis is to just ignore the question. Christians can do that when we the Muslims demonstrate the internal contradictions they have with the belief in the trinity. I am not likening the Salafi Atharis to Christians, but the ability to just ignore clear and valid points is common between the two.

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whoaretheshia

Re: The two 'feet' of Allah are between his creation?
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2017, 09:46:24 PM »
Like Ahlesunnah even Imam Abul Hasan(ra)[8th Imam] affirmed the attributes of Allah without likening.

Brother, when you do things like this, with due respect, it only undermines your credibility in my eyes. We both know that the same narrators who narrated that also narrated that which directly contradicts the Salafi-Athari Aqeedah. Furthermore, not negating nor likening is already part of the Shia Aqeedah, and if you had researched further, you would have known that the Mutazila went too far and even negated the names of Allah (swt).

Furthermore, you can not have any claim to being part of the orthodox Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jamaah given you consider the largest group , the Ashari and the Maturidi , as innovators, deviants, and deniers of the attributes. They are also often referred to as the Jahmiyya.

When i bring a point on the Salafi-Aqeedah, it is necessary to stay on topic. By completely and unconvincingly taken traditions from our books demonstrates the inability to give any real answer, and also of not comprehending the basics of our Aqeedah and Hadith. I am not trying to offend you but it would have been better if you kept the the post about Allah , the Almighty being over the throne, without deciding to quote traditions which do not agree with any of your claims and when investigated further have nothing to do with the claims made by the Salafi-Aqeedah.
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" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

whoaretheshia

Re: The two 'feet' of Allah are between his creation?
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2017, 10:20:10 PM »
So far, on the most fundamental issue of Aqeedah, those of the Salafi-Athari persuasion have:

1. Not addressed how Allah allegedly having two feet, and that this two feet are literal feet but not like ours, and part of his essence and attributes, and are literally above the Kursiy (below the Arsh) is consistent with the idea that Allah or part of Allah is not between his creation?

2. Saying that Allah is 'above' his creation is not a valid answer. How is he above his creation, but also has two feet which are literally above the Kursiy, which is below the Arsh?

3. Distorting Shia positions based on what apologist websites try to do only undermines credibility and shows inability to stay on topic and give an answer.
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" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

Abu Muhammad

Re: The two 'feet' of Allah are between his creation?
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2017, 03:46:48 AM »
@whoaretheshia,

Allah (saw) described Himself in the Quran with attributes similar to humans. At the the same time, He (swt) says that nothing resembles Him (swt).

So, what is wrong if some Muslims say the same?

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: The two 'feet' of Allah are between his creation?
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2017, 07:45:41 PM »
I essentially told you the following:

1. I have read the works of Ibn Uthaymeen and Ibn Taymiyyah and a number of well respected Salafi-Athari scholars. Works including: Explanation of Aqeedatul Hamawiyyah - Ibn Uthaymeen, . Sharh Aqeedah Al Wasitiyah , and a number of other well known books. Demonstrating to me the Salafi-Athari belief that Allah is above his throne is not something i was ignorant off, as i know the Salafi-Atharis attribute location and position and direction to the Almighty. Furthermore i know debating you on this particular issue will be of no use, given you believe it and refuse to allow any form of rationality in this issue. Suffice to say the majority of the Ummah i.e the Ashari, Maturidi, and the Shia have refuted the Salafi-Athari Aqeedah on this issue and other issues pertaining to the attributes many times over.
What Salafees believe in, are the authethentic traditions from Prophet(saws) and Salaf -us-saliheen(righteous predecessors), without giving them Taweel from their own, and taking them as they have been narrated. So those ignorant people who try to mock Salafis for attributing location and position and direction to Allah(swt) are in reality mocking Prophet(saws). And they hold the honor and status of following the pure religion as it was passed down from the righteous predecessors, without manipulating important aspects through innovated corrupt ideas and concepts of kalaam.  And you make me laugh at your childish bragging that such an such innovator sect refuted Salafis, while I know the reality is contrary to facts, to the extent that the Imams of Salafees destroyed ideological fathers of these cults such as the Mu'tazila and Jahmiya, to such an extent that they cults, that these brands were lost, and some of their ideas were eventually adopted by the later evolved innovators, the but since your are an ignorant, then you may live with your dreams.

As for the answer to your argument, then it was given to you in my earlier posts, that if you will indulge in matters of howness, then I won't be answering you. If you insist then let me share you a scholarly view on this, from the sites which you often quote.

Imam Abu ‘Ubayd al-Qaasim ibn Salaam (may Allah have mercy on him) said: These hadeeths which say that our Lord smiles at the despair of His slaves when things will soon change, and that Hell will not be filled until your Lord places His foot on it, and that the Kursiy is the place for the two feet – these hadeeths, as narrated, are true in our opinion; they were narrated from trustworthy narrators to other trustworthy narrators. But if we are asked about their meaning, we do not explain them, and we have never seen any scholar discuss their meanings.  [Narrated by al-Bayhaqi in al-Asma’ wa’s-Sifaat, 2/198; Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr in at-Tamheed, 7/149]

Yahya bin Yahya (d. 234AH) reported, “We were sitting with Malik bin Anas when a man came in and asked, “‘ar-Rahmaanu ‘alal arsh istawaa‘ (The Most Merciful rose over the Throne [20:5]), how did He istiwaa?” At this, Malik lowered his head until sweat began to pour down his forehead (out of anger). The he replied, ‘The istiwaa is not unknown, and the kayf (howness) is not comprehensible; believing in it is obligatory, and asking questions about it is an innovation. And I am sure that you are an innovator.’ He then commanded that the man be expelled.” [Bayhaqi's Asma wa al-Sifat]


2. You have only repeated scholarly statements which state that Allah is above his throne. I knew this, and it is common knowledge. What i wanted you to do is to demonstrate to me how this was consistent with your belief Allah (swt) has two feet, and those two feet as per authentic narrations are above the foot-stool ? If the two feet of Allah (swt) are parts his attributes and essence, and if he literally has two feet, and thus, if he two feet are above the Kursiy, than do you not believe part of Allah is between the Arsh and Kursiy? It is really as simple as that. You won't have any answer for this, because it is an enormous internal contradiction. The way out i have seen , with the utmost respect, for most Salafi-Atharis is to just ignore the question. Christians can do that when we the Muslims demonstrate the internal contradictions they have with the belief in the trinity. I am not likening the Salafi Atharis to Christians, but the ability to just ignore clear and valid points is common between the two.

Here you go again, as i said in earlier post, that you won't be able to discuss these issues, without asking "howness", and the bold part of your statement proves that, I was correct. Basically your second question can be divided into two parts, first is regarding howness/demonstration, for which I refer you to may earlier post#15, that: {The point is you want to discuss something which deals with howness of Allah, and that is forbidden to be discussed, because of limited knowledge, and limitations a human brain has in regards to comprehending things which are unseen, specially in regards to Allah(swt).}  For second part is answered by re-quoting you Salafi belief, which I quoted from Ibn Qayyim, that proves that as per Salafi Aqeedah, Allah is not entering the creation, as there is no physical contact between.

Ibn al-Qayyim said:

  If Allaah is separate from His creation, then either He is encompassing them or He is not. If He is encompassing them, then He must be above them, because that which encompasses must necessarily be above that which is encompassed. Hence because the heavens encompass the earth, they must be above it, and because the Kursiy encompasses the heavens, it must be above them, and because the Throne encompasses the Kursiy, it must be above it. Whatever encompasses all of that must necessarily be above it. This does not imply that there is physical contact with anything that He encompasses; neither is there any similarity or resemblance between Him and that which He encompasses. (al-Sawaa’iq al-Mursalah, 4/1308)

The reason you are failing to understanding this simple stance of Salafis, is because subconsciously you liken Allah to his creation, due to which you end up missing the whole issue. But since Salafis don't liken Allah to His creation, then they have no problem in accepting what Allah himself said about his attributions, or which Prophet(saws) affirmed.

The Salafi position is best explained by Ishaaq ibn Rahaweih when he was challenged by a jahmi who said "I disbeleive in a Lord that descends" his reply was "I believe in a Lord that does what He wills". Adh-Dhahabee declares it’s sanad saheeh and refers it to al-Haakim. See also ‘al-Asmaa was Sifaat’ (pg. 528) of al-Bayhaqee.]

As for your childish attempt by bragging that you read the books of Salafis and are aware of their belief, then the simple answer to this is that, not every who read understands it properly. It's understanding deen is from the blessings of Allah, which is only for selective slaves of his, and due to your lack of understanding, it appears, you were missed out from his blessing of Allah.

Lastly, I would like to say these matters which you are bring up are from the matters of unseen, for which there is limited knowledge, and the best path is the middle one which neither rejects it nor goes into its taweel, but affirms it as it came without giving it taweel from their own. And choosing not to answer these matters is the sign of humility and correctness of Salafis, its not their weakness,  rather its their strength because, even Asharis and Jahamis, face trouble when asked questions about Allah. But the beauty of Salafi creed is that, what they believe is proven from the text of Quran and Sunnah, without the contamination of Taweel. Like the question where is Allah, a typical innovator will either run avoid answering this question, out of fear of getting busted or if he tries, would end up, committing kufr, but since you are too soft for these issues, you'll sit on the borderline, avoiding these questions.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: The two 'feet' of Allah are between his creation?
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2017, 02:14:33 AM »
Brother, when you do things like this, with due respect, it only undermines your credibility in my eyes.
By quoting Shia hadeeth, my credibility fades in your sight. Why? Do you have allergy with these ahadeeth? Hopefully we'll soon find out why.


We both know that the same narrators who narrated that also narrated that which directly contradicts the Salafi-Athari Aqeedah. Furthermore, not negating nor likening is already part of the Shia Aqeedah, and if you had researched further, you would have known that the Mutazila went too far and even negated the names of Allah (swt).
I know that, there are Shia hadeeth which contradict Salafi Aqeedah, also the Aqeedah of Ahlus-sunnah in general(including Salafis) like seeing Allah in day of Judgement. However the motive behind quoting you those Shia reports from Shia Imams was to educate you about the acknowledgement of your Imams for basic principle in Salafi Ideology. That is (i). Shia Imam affirmed that rule of isbat bila tashbih (accept without likening) . (ii). Shia Imam also affirmed Attributing Allah what He has attributed to Himself and not considering Him similar to His creatures. AND affirming whatever has confirmation in the book and the Sunnah.

These two principles are two fundamental principle of Salafi ideology based on which they have formed their beliefs in the light of Quran and Sunnah. And since these two main principles of Salafis are affirmed by Shia Imam, then tell me how do Salafis violate these rules? Because they accept the attributes of Allah without likening, that has been confirmed in the Book and the Sunnah, like the Imam says. Infact they are the strictest among the Ahlsunnah wal Jama'ah to abide by these principle laid down by your infallible Imam. Were as the other innovator sects among Ahlus-sunnah violate these principle by rejecting the literal meaning of those attributes and making it tawil, without any evidence from the Salaf.


Furthermore, you can not have any claim to being part of the orthodox Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jamaah given you consider the largest group , the Ashari and the Maturidi , as innovators, deviants, and deniers of the attributes. They are also often referred to as the Jahmiyya.
As per the hadeeth of Prophet(saws) which is present in both Sunni and Shia books, out of 73 sects of Islam, only one will enter Jannah, the rest will enter hell-fire. And the one which will enter Jannah will be the one who follows Prophet(SAWS) and Sahaba(RA). The beliefs of Salafis which you try criticize out of ignorance, Salafis can prove them from AUTHENTIC Prophetic ahadeeth or the reports of Sahaba(RA). Hence, keep the unacademic and childish argument of majority being against Salafi Aqeedah on the side. Since 72 sects out of 73 from the Ummah are majority. So here is food for thought to figure out which one is the saved sect.

Shaykh ’Abdul-Qaadir al-Jilaani (d.561H) said: “As for al-Firqatun-Naajiyah (the Saved-Sect) it is Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jama’ah, and there is no name for Ahlus-Sunnah except one – and that is Ashaabul-Hadeeth (the People of Hadeeth).”

Imaam Al-Asbahaanee (d.535AH) said:
The sign of Ahlus-Sunnah is that they follow the Salaf as-Saalih and abandon all that is innovated and newly introduced into the Deen.” (Al-Hujjah fee Bayaanil Mahajjah 1/364)

Imaam Asbahaanee (d.535AH) said
: “The Ahlul-Hadeeth were mentioned, and they are the saved sect upon the truth until the Hour is established” (Al-Hujjah fee Bayaanil-Mahajjah 1/246).

Imaam Ibn Taymiyyah (d.728AH) said: “The most deserving people of being the Firqat an-Najiyah (saved sect) is Ahlul-Hadeeth wa as-Sunnah who do not follow anyone with bigoted allegiance except the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam). [al-Fataawa 3/247].

As for your claim, that Salafis cannot claim to be part of Orthodox Ahlusunnah, then Salafees/Ahlul-hadeeth are the orthodox Ahlus-sunnah. And its not me, what the following testimonies of highly revered classical Sunni Scholars who declare Ahlul hadeeth to be the victorious group or Saved sect from the Ummah.

The Aided and Victorious Group:

The Victorious Group is the Saved-Sect, there is no difference because it consists of one reality” (Shaykh Abu Usamah Saleem Ibn ‘Eed al-Hilaalee)

The Prophet (SAWS) said: “There will not cease to be a group from my Ummah victorious upon the truth, not being harmed by those who oppose them until the command of Allaah comes about, and they are like that.” [Related by Muslim (6/52-53) and Abu Dawud (2/202) from Thawban.]

Ibn al-Mubarak (d.151H) said: “According to me, they are Ashabul-Hadîth. [Sharafu Ashabul-Hadeeth (p.26) of al-Khateeb al-Baghdaadi]

Imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal RAH (d.241H) : Imaam Ahmad bin Hanbal was asked concerning the victorious group, he replied, “If the victorious group are not the Ashaabul Hadeeth then I do not know who is.” (Ma’arifah Uloom al-Hadeeth of Haakim (pg.2 no.3) the chain is good and Ibn Hajr authenticated it in Fath ul-Baari (13/293) under hadeeth (no.7311).

Al-Haakim said: Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal did well when he commented on this report by saying that the victorious group who will prevail until the Hour begins is “ashaab al-hadeeth” (the people of hadeeth). Who is more deserving of this description than people who follow the way of the righteous and follow in the footsteps of the salaf who came before us, and exposed the falsehood of the people of bid’ah (innovation) by basing their arguments on the Sunnahs of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)? 
Ma’rifat ‘Uloom al-Hadeeth, by al-Haakim al-Nisaboori, p. 2, 3 ]

Al-Qadi Iyad said:
“What Ahmad intended was Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jamâ’ah: those who hold the ’Aqidah of Ahlul-Hadeeth.”[ Sharh Saheeh Muslim (13/67) of an-Nawawi.]

Imaam Bukhaari RAH. (d.256H) :
Imaam Bukhaari said concerning the victorious group, “ie they are the Ahlul Hadeeth.”(Masalah al-Ihtijaaj Baa ash- Shaafi’ee Lil-Khateeb(pg.47), The chain is authentic, al-Hujjah Fee Bayaan al-Muhajjah (1/246).

Ibn Muflih (763 H) said:Ahul Hadeeth, they are the Victorious Group, established upon the Haqq (Absolute truth)”. (Al Adaab Ul Shar’rah 1/211)

Imaam Alee Ibnul Madeenee (d.234AH) said concerning the hadeeth: “There shall not cease to be a group from amongst my Ummah apparent upon the truth”…”They are Ahlul-Hadeeth” (Ad-Deenar p.63 of Imaam Adh-Dhahabee d.748AH)

Imaam Ibn Hibbaan RAH (d.354H) : Haafidh Muhammad bin Hibbaan al-Bustee established the following chapter heading for a hadeeth, “In mentioning the hadeeth by which some of the Mu’attilah (those who deny Allaahs attributes) censure the Ahlul Hadeeth because they are deprived from divine guidance in relation to its correct meaning.”
(Saheeh Ibn Hibbaan, al-Ehsaan (no.566), another edition (no.565).

Abu Ismaa’eel Abdur Rahmaan bin Ismaa’eel as-Saboonee RAH (d.449H) :He wrote a book titled, ‘Aqeedatus-Salaf Wa Ashaabul Hadeeth’ in it he says, “The Ahlul Hadeeth have the Aqeedah, they testify Allaah The Glorious is above the seven heavens upon his Throne.”  (Aqeedatus-Salaf AshaabulHadeeth pg.14).

Abu Mansoor Abdul Qaahir bin Taahir bin Muhammad al-Baghdaadee RAH (d.429H) : He said concerning the people of Shaam, “All of them are upon the Madhab of Ahlul Hadeeth from Ahlus-Sunnah”. (Usool ud deen pg.317).

Imaam As-Sam’aanee (d.489AH) said: “From that which proves that the Ahlul-Hadeeth are upon the truth is that if you were to read all of their written books, from the first of them to the last of them, their old and new, along with the fact that they lived in different countries and times and there were long distances between them and each one of them lived in a region from amongst he regions, you will find them upon a single way and single matter with regards to the explanation of the creed” (Al-Intisaar li-Ahlul Hadeeth. p.45).

Imaam Ibnul Qayyim (d.751AH) said: “Everyone knows that the Ahlul-Hadeeth are the most truthful of all the groups, as Ibnul-Mubaarak (d.181AH) said, ‘I found the Religion with the Ahlul-Hadeeth, kalaam with the Mu’tazilah, the lie with the raafidah, the trick with the people of opinion” (Mukhtasar Sawaa iqul-Mursalah 2/359)

Haafidh Ibn Hibbaan mentioned the following attribute of the Ahlul Hadeeth, “They act upon the Sunnah, defend it and annihilate its opponents.”  (Saheeh Ibn Hibbaan, al-Ehsaan (no.6129), another edition (no.6162) also refer to (1/140 before hadeeth no (61).

Abu Bakr bin A’yaash, who was from amongst the taba Tabi’een said:
The Ahlul Hadeeth in every era are like the people of Islaam in relation to other religions.” (al-Meezaan (1/57) of Sha’araanee).

Imaam Ahmad bin Sinaan al-Wasitee RAH  (d.259H)
: He said, “there are no people of innovation in this world except that they have enmity for the Ahlul Hadeeth”  (Ma’arifah Uloom al-Hadeeth of Haakim pg.4 no.6 and the chain is authentic).

Imaam Suyootee RAH (d.911H) : He said in explanation of the verse. “And remember) the Day when We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imam (Sooralal-Israa 17:71)  “There is no better virtue for the Ahlul Hadeeth than that because there is no other Imaam for the Ahlul Hadeeth other than the Messenger of Allaah (Sallalahu Alayhee Wasallam)” (Tadreeb ur-Raawee 2/126).

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (d.728Ah) said: Hence it is clear that the people who most deserve to be called the victorious group are “Ahl al- Hadeeth wa’l-Sunnah”, who have no leader to follow blindly apart from the Messenger of Allah (SAWS). They are the most knowledgeable of people concerning his words and deeds,the most able to distinguish between what is sound and what is not [of hadeeth]. Their imams have deep knowledge of that, they are the ones who understand its meanings and are the most sincere in following it.They accept it and believe in it, and act upon it. They show love to those who adopt it and they show enmity to those who oppose it. They are the ones who measure any idea against that which is proven in the Qur’an and Sunnah, so they never adopt any idea and make it one of the basic principles of their religion unless it is proven in that which the Messenger brought. Rather they make that which the Messenger brought,the Qur’an and Sunnah, the foundation and basis of their beliefs. With regard to the issues concerning which people dispute, such as the attributes of Allah, the divine decree, the threat of Hell, the names of  Allah and the principle of enjoining what is good and forbidding what is evil, etc., they refer that to Allah and His Messenger. They examine the general ideas concerning which the different groups dispute, and whatever of these ideas is in accordance with the Qur’an and Sunnah, they approve of it, and whatever goes against the Qur’an and Sunnah, they reject it.They do not follow conjecture or whims and desires. For following conjecture is ignorance and following whims and desires without any guidance from Allah is wrong doing.
(Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 3/347, 348).

And also Sheikh-Ibne Taymiyyah said We do not take the meaning of Ahlul Hadeeth to just mean the people who heard (ahadeeth), wrote them or narrated them rather we mean anyone who takes care to memorize it, understand it and follow it, both inwardly and outwardly.”[Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 4/95]

Al-Khateeb al-Baghdaadi (d.463H) said:
“And if only the people of blameworthy opinion busied themselves with beneficial knowledge, and seeking the Sunnah of the Messenger of the Lord of Creation, and followed the way of the fuqaha and muhaddithoon – then they would find that this would be sufficient for them. And the narration would take the place of his opinion which he used to hold; since the Hadîth comprehends the fundamentals of Tawhid, the reported Threats and the Promises, the Attributes of the Lord of Creation – who is High above the saying of the apostates, it also contains information about Paradise and Hell-Fire, and what Allaah has prepared therein for the pious and the wicked, and what Allaah has created in the earths and the heavens, and the remarkable things and great signs, and a mention of the nearest Angels – those drawn up in ranks and those who recite tasbih. And the Hadeeth comprehends stories of the about the pious ascetics and Awliya, wonderful admonition and sayings of the Scholars. It contains histories of the kings of the ’Arabs and non-’Arabs, and the accounts of past nations, and descriptions of the battles of the Messenger (SAWS); his expeditions, rulings, judgements, sermons, warnings, predictions and miracles. It also contains information about the number of his Wives and Children, his Relatives and Companions, and a mention of their excellence and merit, and a mention of their lives, their actions and their ancestry. And the Hadeeth contains tafseer of the Qur’aan, information and the wise remembrance contained in it. It contains the sayings of the Companions about its preserved rulings, the different sayings they held, as well as those of the Scholars and mujtahids.
And Allaah made Ahlul-Hadeeth (the People of Hadeeth) the pillar of the Shari’ah and the destroyer of every despicable innovation. So they are Allaah’s wardens amongst His creation, and the link between the Prophet (SAWS) and his Ummah, and the strivers to preserve His Deen. So their light shines brightly, their excellence remains, their signs are clear, their positions evident and their proofs are over-powering. And all the sects coil themselves around vain desires and prefer opinion which they cling to – except for Ahlul-Hadeeth, since the Book is their provision, the Sunnah is their proof, the Messenger their leader and to him is their ascription. They do not deviate upon vain desires, nor turn to mere conjecture. They accept what is reported from the Prophet (SAWS) and they are the trustworthy and reliable ones, who memorise the Deen and are its treasurers, its storehouses of knowledge and its bearers. If anyone differs about a hadeeth, then it is referred back to them. Thus, their judgement is accepted and listened to. From them is every Scholar and Imaam, and every true ascetic, and one of excellence, and precise reciter and righteous Khateeb. They are the Saved-Sect and their way is the straight one … ” [Sharafu Ashabul-Hadeeth (pp.7-9)]


it would have been better if you kept the the post about Allah , the Almighty being over the throne, without deciding to quote traditions which do not agree with any of your claims and when investigated further have nothing to do with the claims made by the Salafi-Aqeedah.

Shia shaykh Abu Jafar al-Barqi (d 274), in his book “al-Mahasin” (1/231-231) narrated from Abu Basir, which reported from one of Imams:

لا تكذبوا الحديث إذا أتاكم به مرجئ ولا قدري ولا حروري ينسبه إلينا ، فإنكم لا تدرون لعله شئ من الحق فيكذب الله فوق عرشه
Don’t reject hadith which ascribed to us, if it come to you from muriji, or qadari, or haruri. Because you don’t know, perhaps things from the truth (in those reports)AND (BY REJECTING IT) YOU WOULD LIE UPON ALLAH (WHO IS) BEYOND THE ARSH.

B.
و روى الصدوق في العلل بإسناده الصحيح عن أبي بصير عن أحدهما عليهما السلام قال:
لا تكذبوا بحديث أتاكم به مرجى‏ء و لا قدري و لا خارجي نسبه إلينا، فإنكم لا تدرون لعله شي‏ء من الحق فتكذبوا الله عز و جل فوق عرشه
And narrated al Sadooq(ra) in al Illal (Illul ul sharai) with sahih (authentic) sanad (chain of narration) from Abi Baseer from one of the 2 Imams(as) said: Don’t reject hadith which has come to you people through murj’i, qadari and kharji attributed to us, for verily you people don’t know for it is something from the truth AND (BY REJECTING IT) YOU WOULD LIE UPON ALLAH (WHO IS) BEYOND THE ARSH.

Narrated by Kulayni in “Kafi” 1/126:

4 – علي بن محمد، عن سهل بن زياد، عن محمد بن عيسى قال: كتبت إلى أبي الحسن علي بن محمد (عليهما السلام): جعلني الله فداك يا سيدي قد روي لنا: أن الله في موضع دون موضع على العرش استوى، وأنه ينزل كل ليلة في النصف الاخير من الليل إلى السماء الدنيا، وروي: أنه ينزل عشية عرفة ثم يرجع إلى موضعه، فقال بعض مواليك في ذلك: إذا كان في موضع دون موضع، فقد يلاقيه الهواء ويتكنف عليه والهواء جسم رقيق يتكنف على كل شئ بقدره، فكيف يتكنف عليه جل ثناؤه على هذا المثال؟ فوقع (عليه السلام): علم ذلك عنده (2) وهو المقدر له بما هو أحسن تقديرا واعلم أنه إذا كان في السماء الدنيا فهو كما هو على العرش، والاشياء كلها له سواء علما وقدرة وملكا وإحاطة.
وعنه، عن محمد بن جعفر الكوفي، عن محمد بن عيسى مثله.

Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Muhammad ibn Isa who has said the following.
“I wrote to Imam abu al-Hassan, Ali ibn Muhammad (a.s.) to clarify a question. May Allah take my soul in your service, O my master, it is narrated to us that Allah is in one place and not in another place on Arsh, (the Throne) resting. He comes down to the sky above the earth every night during the last half of the night. It is narrated that He comes down at the ninth evening of the month of Dhul Hajj and then He returns back to His place. Certain individuals among your friends have said that if He would be found in certain places and not in other places the air must have come in contact with Him and would surround Him because air is a thin form of body that surrounds everything proportionate to its size. How then the air would surround Allah, the Most Holy and the Most High, According to this assumption? The Imam replied in writing, “He has the knowledge of this. He is the best One in having the true measurements of all things. You must, However, note that His being in the sky over the earth is just as He on the Throne. All things to Him are the same in the matters of His knowledge and power, domination and control.”

These are few Shia hadeeth. I'm certain you will reject them, so my following question to you is, Where is Allah as per your belief? Is he inside the creation or outside the creation?

whoaretheshia

Re: The two 'feet' of Allah are between his creation?
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2017, 02:17:18 AM »
Thank you for your replies brother Noor. Having debated a number of Salafi-Athari brothers, and observed the Orthodox Ahlus-Sunnah debate them too, i have replied to almost all of the points you have raised many times. InshAllah, when i get time i will give a robust reply to every single thing you have written. There is a reason why the Shia, the Ashari and Maturidi vigorously oppose the Salafi-Atharis in what they believe regarding Allah, and their concept of Tawheed.
DISCLAIMER: I AM AWAY UNTIL THE START OF THE NEW YEAR, PM ME IF I OWE YOU A REPLY, MAY ALLAH HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US, FI AMANILLAH
" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: The two 'feet' of Allah are between his creation?
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2017, 02:35:53 AM »
Thank you for your replies brother Noor. Having debated a number of Salafi-Athari brothers, and observed the Orthodox Ahlus-Sunnah debate them too, i have replied to almost all of the points you have raised many times. InshAllah, when i get time i will give a robust reply to every single thing you have written.
All your points were refuted, and and a fool debating and aalim, won't become an aalim. I hope you will answer my arguments in an academic manner, which I haven't seen yet.

There is a reason why the Shia, the Ashari and Maturidi vigorously oppose the Salafi-Atharis in what they believe regarding Allah, and their concept of Tawheed.

It seems you didn't bother to read my last response, which had the answer to this question, made by some Imams of Ahlus-sunnah, who defined who the orthodox Ahlus-sunnah are, I recommend all the readers to read my previous response.

Imaam Ahmad bin Sinaan al-Wasitee RAH  (d.259H) : He said, “there are no people of innovation in this world except that they have enmity for the Ahlul Hadeeth”  (Ma’arifah Uloom al-Hadeeth of Haakim pg.4 no.6 and the chain is authentic).

Imaam Ibn Hibbaan RAH (d.354H) : Haafidh Muhammad bin Hibbaan al-Bustee established the following chapter heading for a hadeeth, “In mentioning the hadeeth by which some of the Mu’attilah (those who deny Allaahs attributes) censure the Ahlul Hadeeth because they are deprived from divine guidance in relation to its correct meaning.”
(Saheeh Ibn Hibbaan, al-Ehsaan (no.566), another edition (no.565).

whoaretheshia

Re: The two 'feet' of Allah are between his creation?
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2017, 11:10:29 AM »
InshAllah, at some point today i will be making a robust response. However just as advice, be careful how you talk about Ashari and Maturidi brothers/sisters. We have some on this forum, and calling them innovators and deviants in Aqeedah will not go down too well. They are the vast majority of the Sunni, and they are the orthodox Ahlus-Sunnah, even if you want to throw labels at them like 'Jahmiyya'  or 'Denier of the attributes' and the like.
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" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: The two 'feet' of Allah are between his creation?
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2017, 12:53:06 PM »
InshAllah, at some point today i will be making a robust response. However just as advice, be careful how you talk about Ashari and Maturidi brothers/sisters. We have some on this forum, and calling them innovators and deviants in Aqeedah will not go down too well. They are the vast majority of the Sunni, and they are the orthodox Ahlus-Sunnah,

I quoted some Imams of Ahlusunnah who defined the orthodox Ahlus-Sunnah. Seems this didn't go down your throat .


 

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