This version of Hadith al-Thaqalayn is Saheeh li Ghayrihi

[whoaretheshia]

In the name of Allah,


[It is a shame, our website is still Forbidden.]

Unfortunately, websites like youpuncturedtheark have sought to make out that the version of Hadith al-Thaqalayn that contains the phrase 'If you hold onto it/them, you will never go astray' is 'weak'. The fact is, there are two Hasan chains without any doubt if you apply orthodox standards of Rijal. These chains both corroborate on the statement "If you hold onto that/them you will never go astray". Both of these chains are Hasan, and reinforce each other and thus are strengthened from both sides and are elevated to the status of Saheeh Li Ghayri. Youpunctured seems to have the idea the only books in existence narrating this version is the 'Hasan Gharib' hadith in Tirmidhi, and Mustadarak which is weak. Yes, i am quite aware when Tirmidhi said 'Hasan Gharib' it actually meant weak. However, let me present you the two chains, one of which TSN themselves authenticated. The other, they graded weak, going against what al-Albani did himself, and any rational application of ilm al-Rijal. 

Just to note: I am not interested in debating the implications, but only in proving that this version comes through at least two Hasan chains, and is thus Saheeh Li Ghayri.

First tradition

This tradition is contained in the Musnad of Ibn Rahwayh and Ibn Asim.

“The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said: “I have left behind over you (al-Thaqalayn) that which if you hold fast to it you will never go astray: the Book of Allah – one end of which is in the Hand of Allah and the other in your hands– and my Ahl al-Bayt.”[5] 
Chain: Sulayman b. ‘Ubayd Allah al-Ghilani – Abu ‘Amir – Kathir b. Zayd – Muhammad b. ‘Umar b. ‘Ali – his father – ‘Ali, may Allah be pleased with him:

حدثنا سليمان بن عبيد الله الغيلاني، حدثنا أبو عامر، حدثنا كثير بن زيد، عن محمد بن عمر بن علي، عن أبيه، عن علي رضي الله عنه أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال :إني تركت فيكم ما إن أخذتم به لن تضلوا :كتاب الله، سببه بيد الله، وسببه بأيديكم، وأهل بيتي.


Verdict of Sunni scholars of Hadith regarding the above:

(1) Shu’ayb Arnaut states regarding the above tradition: إسناده حسن [The chain is Hasan [good]] (2) Ibn Hajar Al Asqalani states: هذا إسناد صحيح [The chain is Saheeh] (3) Ahmad B. Abu Bakr b.Ismail Al Busri states : رواه إسحاق بسند صحيح [The chain is Saheeh] (4) Ali b. Husam al-Din al-Muttaqi al-Hindi states: ابن راهويه وابن جرير وابن أبي عاصم والمحاملي في أماليه وصححه [Narrated by (Ishaq) Ibn Rahwayh, Ibn Jarir, Ibn Abi ‘Asim, and by al-Muhamali in his Amali, and he (al-Muhamali) declared it Saheeh]

The only narrator that is not absolutely Thiqah in the chain is   Kathir ibn Zayd has been given Tawthiq by Ibn ‘Ammar al-Musili and Ibn Hibban in Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, viii, 300 and is classed as ‘Saduq (truthful) and makes mistakes’ (but reliable and accepted in Hadith) by Ibn Hajar. TSN online refutation website has also graded this tradition as ‘Hasan’. Thus, nothing more needs to be mentioned regarding this.


Link to site removed by Farid.

[whoaretheshia]

Second tradition

[/b]

Another tradition which mirrors the above is the following contained in Musnad Ahmad[6]: `Abd Allah ibn Ahmad — (his father) Ahmad ibn Hambal — (1) al-Aswad ibn `Amir — (2) Sharik — (3) al-Rukayn —(4) al-Qasim ibn Hassan — from Zayd ibn Thabit that Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam said:

حدثنا عبد الله حدثنى احمد بن حنبل حدثنا الاسود بن عامرثنا شريك عن الركين عن القاسم بن حسان عن زيد بن ثابت قال قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم انى قد تركت فيكم ما ان اخذتم به لن تضلوا بعدى الثقلين احدهما اكبر من الاخر كتاب الله حبل ممدود من السماء الى الارض و عترتى اهل بيتى وانهما لن يفترقا حتى يردا على الحوض

 

Break down the chain of narrators:

Al-Aswad ibn ‘Amir

 Tawthiq by Ibn al-Madini, Ibn Hajar and al-Suyuti. Mentioned by Ibn Hibban in al-Thiqat.

Sharik

(1) al-Dhahabi said: “Al-Bukhari uses him as a witness, and Muslim narrates from him in mutaba’at. Al-Nasai and others rely upon him as a hujjah. [7]” and Dhahabi said: ” I (al-Dhahabi) say: Sharik was hasan al-hadith (i.e. his ahadith are hasan). He was an Imam, a jurist, a prolific hadith narrator. He was not as precise as Hammad b. Zayd. Al-Bukhari has used him as a witness, Muslim has narrated mutaba’at reports from him, and Yahya b. Ma’in declared him thiqah (trustworthy) … His ahadith are in the hasan categories. [8]“  (2) Imam Al Hakim writes: “(Imam) Muslim has relied upon Sharik b. ‘Abd Allah as a hujjah, and he is to be relied upon as a hujjah [9]” (3) Ibn Hajar-Al-Asqalani writes: “Sharik b. ‘Abd Allah al-Nakha’i al-Kufi al-Qadi, (resided) first at Wasit and then Kufah, Abu ‘Abd Allah: Saduq (very truthful), made a lot of mistakes. His memory deteriorated since he became the judge in Kufah. He was just, excellent, a great worshipper of Allah, and he was severe against the people of bid’ah [10]” (4) Imam al-‘Ijli states: “Sharik b. ‘Abd Allah al-Nakha’i, the judge, Kufi: Thiqah (trustworthy), and he was hasan al-hadith (i.e. his ahadith are hasan). [11]”

He developed a memory problem when he became the judge of Kufah. Before this period, he was a completely accurate narrator. We find that (5) Imam Ibn ‘Adi writes: “The overwhelming majority of his ahadith are sahih and accurate (from his shuyukh). As for the repugnancy in his ahadith, that occurred only due to his poor memory [12]”

Al Rukyan: 

(1) Is considered thiqah by Ahmad, Ibn Mu’in, al-Nasa’i, Ibn Hibban and Ibn Hajar [13] (2) al-Rukayn is relied upon as a hujjah by Imam Muslim in his Saheeh [14] (3) Shaykh al-Arnaut has graded the chain of an independent report by al-Rukayn as being ‘Saheeh upon the standard of (Imam) Muslim’[15]

Al-Qasim ibn Hassan:

 (1) Imam Ibn Shahin again states: “ Al-Qasim b. Hassan who narrated from Zayd b. Thabit is thiqah (trustworthy). Ahmad b. Salih said so” [16]  (2) Mentioned by Imam Ibn Hibban among the thiqah (trustworthy) narrator [17]  (3) Imam al-‘Ijli  states: “Al-Qasim b. Hassan, a Kufi Tabi’i: Thiqah (trustworthy)” [18] (4) Imam Dahabi writes: “Al-Qasim b. Hasan al-‘Amiri: He narrated from Zayd b. Thabit and some others, and al-Rukayn b. al-Rabi’ and al-Walid b. Qays narrated from him. He was declared thiqah (trustworthy)” [19]   (5) Imam Ibn Khuzaymah (d. 311 H) famous for only choosing to include authentic narrations in his collection has relied upon this chain in his Sahih:  وحدثني الركين بن الربيع عن القاسم بن حسان عن زيد بن ثابت عن النبي صلى الله عليه و سلم and Shaykh Dr. al-A’zami, in his tahqiq of the above chain “The chain is Saheeh”  [20]

As-Suyuti writes:” Ibn Khuzaymah is more authentic on the whole than Ibn Hibban because Ibn Khuzaymah investigated his narrations very thoroughly, to the degree that he refused to accept a narration if there existed the slightest doubt about its authenticity. “Al-Thahabî states: “Imam Ibn Khuzaymah was one of the great imams who had insight when it came to rijâl (the science of determining the reliability of narrators).”

Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani regards Kathir ibn Zayd as ‘Maqbul’ and his hadith are accepted: القاسم بن حسان العامري الكوفي مقبول من الثالثة د سv [Taqrib al-Tahdheeb] [21]

Worthy of note here the famous Salafi scholar al-Albani has declared this chain as Hasan in  Silsilah Ahadith Sahihah p.357.

[whoaretheshia]

Both of these traditions come through two Hasan chains.  In fact, if i were to list the other chains of doubtful authenticity, this would be the version that is by far narrated the most (i.e with the explicit phrase if you hold onto that/them you will never go astray).  Both chains have been graded Hasan by al-Albani.

[whoaretheshia]

Our article had a host of references, but since we can not link it all or copy and past it all, refer to the relevant part of our references to study further:



References

[1] Saheeh-Muslim

[2] Sunan ibn Majah, Book 1, Hadith 26 / ENG: Vol. 1, Book 1, Hadith 25 (Darrusalam)

[3] Ibn Kathir in ‘al-Bath al-Hathith’  (page 668, Maktabatul Maarif)

[4] Hafidh al-Iraqi in Hafidh al-Alai ‘al-Mukhtalatin’ p 7.

[5] Abu Bakr b. Abi ‘Asim, Ahmad b. ‘Amr b. al-Dhahhak b. Mukhlid al-Shaybani, Kitab al-Sunnah (al-Maktab al-Islami; 1st edition, 1400 H) [annotator: Muhammad Nasir al-Din al-Albani], vol. 2, pp. 644-645, # 1558

[5.1] Ahmad b. ‘Ali b. Hajar al-‘Asqalani, al-Matalib al-Aliyah bi Zawaid al-Masanid al-Thamaniyyah (Beirut: Dar al-Ma’rifah; 1414 H) [annotator: Prof. Shaykh Habib al-Rahman al-A’zami], vol., 4, p. 65, # 3972

[6] Musnad Ahmad vol. 5 pg. 181, 182

[7] [Shams al-Din Muhammad b. Ahmad b. ‘Uthman al-Dhahabi, Tarikh al-Islam wa Wafiyat al-Mashahir wa al-A’lam (Beirut: Dar al-Kitab al-‘Arabi; 1st edition, 1407 H) [annotator: Dr. ‘Umar ‘Abd al-Salam Tadmuri], vol. 11, p. 169]

[8] [Muhammad b. Ahmad b. ‘Uthman al-Dhahabi, Tadhkirat al-Huffaz (Beirut: Dar al-Kutub al-‘Ilmiyyah; 1st edition, 1419 H) [annotator: Zakariyyah ‘Umayrat], vol. 1, p. 170]

[9] [Abu ‘Abd Allah Muhammad b. ‘Abd Allah al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, al-Mustadrak ‘ala al-Sahihayn (Beirut: Dar al-Kutub al-’Ilmiyyah; 1st edition, 1411 H) [annotator: Mustafa ‘Abd al-Qadir ‘Ata], vol. 1, p. 65, # 45]

[10] [Ahmad b. ‘Ali b. Hajar al-‘Asqalani, Taqrib al-Tahdhib (Beirut: Dar al-Maktabah al-‘Ilmiyyah; 2nd edition, 1415 H) [annotator: Mustafa ‘Abd al-Qadir ‘Ata], vol. 1, p. 417, # 2795]

[11] [Abu al-Hasan Ahmad b. ‘Abd Allah b. Salih al-‘Ijli al-Kufi, Ma’rifat al-Thiqat (Madinah: Maktabah al-Dar; 1st edition, 1405 H), vol. 1, p. 453, # 727]

[12] [Abu Ahmad ‘Abd Allah b. ‘Adi al-Jirjani, al-Kamil fi Dhu’afa al-Rijal (Dar al-Fikr li al-Taba’at wa al-Nashr wa al-Tawzi’; 3rd edition, 1409 H), vol. 4, p. 22, # 888/8]

[13] [Al-­Kashif, i, 313; Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, ii, 286; Taqrib al-Tahdhib, i, 252.]

[14] [See Abu al-Husayn Muslim b. al-Hajjaj al-Qushayri al-Naysaburi, Sahih Muslim (Beirut: Dar Ihya al-Turath al-‘Arabi) [annotator: Muhammad Fuad ‘Abd al-Baqi], vol. 3, p. 1685, # 2136 (11)]

[15] [Abu ‘Abd Allah Ahmad b. Hanbal al-Shaybani, Musnad (Cairo: Muasassat Qurtubah) [annotator: Shu’ayb al-Arnaut], vol. 4, p. 69, # 16696]

[16] [Abu Hafs ‘Umar b. Shahin, Tarikh Asma al-Thiqat (Dar al-Salafiyyah; 1st edition, 1404 H), p. 189, # 1148]

[17] [”Abu Hatim Muhammad b. Hibban b. Ahmad al-Tamimi al-Busti, Kitab al-Thiqat (Hyderabad: Majlis Dairat al-Ma’arif al-‘Uthmaniyyah; 1st edition, 1398 H), vol. 7, p. 335”

[18]  [Abu al-Hasan Ahmad b. ‘Abd Allah b. Salih al-‘Ijli al-Kufi, Ma’rifat al-Thiqat (Madinah: Maktabah al-Dar; 1st edition, 1405 H), vol. 2, p. 210, # 1495]

[19]  [Shams al-Din Abu ‘Abd Allah Muhammad b. Ahmad b. al-Dhahabi al-Dimashqi, al-Kashif fi Ma’rifat Man Lahu Riwayat fi al-Kutub al-Sittah (Jeddah: Dar al-Qiblah li al-Thaqafat al-Islamiyyah; 1st edition, 1413 H), vol. 2, p. 127, # 4506]

[20] Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani ,Taqrib al-Tahdib , P449.

[21]   Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani d Ibn Hajar stated in his Nukhba

 

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

InshaAllah, Youpuncturedtheark, will reply to this article soon.

[whoaretheshia]

InshaAllah, Youpuncturedtheark, will reply to this article soon.

We are looking forward to it. We have collected several instances where they have presented things one sided , or used a form of ilm al Rijal which is deceitful more than anything else. Just remind them that this is not a debate about al-Thaqalayn, but only how to ascertain the most reliable version.  Also ask them to go back and correct all of their previous articles and errors, and ask them to consult proper research this time round.

We are preparing some quite revealing articles about their methodology.  The full article is on the website, as it is banned on TSN. Just to note there is nothing one can do to refute the first chain, given TSN has graded it Hasan themselves. The debate centres around the second chain. If you prove that is Hasan (and we have done so) , the two Hasan chains elevate this to Saheeh li Ghayrihi.

Whatever youpunctured will try to bring, we are going to present to Sunni hadith scholars. Let us see if they override the grading of al-Albani.

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

We are looking forward to it. We have collected several instances where they have presented things one sided , or used a form of ilm al Rijal which is deceitful more than anything else. Just remind them that this is not a debate about al-Thaqalayn, but only how to ascertain the most reliable version.  Also ask them to go back and correct all of their previous articles and errors, and ask them to consult proper research this time round.

My advice to whoaretheshia team is that, they must learn some basics of hadeeth sciences and its principles. Its as if we are reading some articles written desperate non-academics. And whole of their article is filled with stupidity and jahalah.

[whoaretheshia]

My advice to whoaretheshia team is that, they must learn some basics of hadeeth sciences and its principles. Its as if we are reading some articles written desperate non-academics. And whole of their article is filled with stupidity and jahalah.

We will await the response you make. For one, we are those willing to amend positions and not stubbornly hold onto them. We sincerely hope you do not apply online standards of Rijal. However, we will withhold judgement and see how you overrule al-Albani.  There is very little 'Jahalah'. These are two Hasan chains, attested to even by al-Albani. We can play the game of Jarh and T'adil all we like brother.

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

We will await the response you make. For one, we are those willing to amend positions and not stubbornly hold onto them. We sincerely hope you do not apply online standards of Rijal. However, we will withhold judgement and see how you overrule al-Albani.  There is very little 'Jahalah'. These are two Hasan chains, attested to even by al-Albani. We can play the game of Jarh and T'adil all we like brother.

Aren't you guys aware of the basic concept that, a narration can have a hasan or Sahih chain, but have a faulty text?

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

And I have a simple question for you, in regards to Thaqalayn.

Until Arafah as per authentic ahadeeth, by more than one Sahabi, the means holding which people would never go astray was Quran alone(as there was no mention of Ahlulbayt at Arafah).

The religion was perfected in Arafah.

There is one version of Hadeeth in Ghadeer which singles out Quran again as means holding which people will not go astray.

Keeping all these factors in mind, do you think that after deen was perfected in Arafah, a couple of days later, a new means of guidance was added alongside Quran holding which people will not go astray?

[whoaretheshia]

Aren't you guys aware of the basic concept that, a narration can have a hasan or Sahih chain, but have a faulty text?

Ofcourse, but even TSN in its refutation article (before ours and generically on the reliable version) has gone against you if you are going to attempt to weaken this hadith, coming through two Hasan chains, and repeated in well over twenty or more other chains which can be debatable as to their authenticity.  Furthermore, these ahadith do not contradict the one in Saheeh Muslim. They only add to it - statements not mentioned by Zayd in his very old age when his memory was in decline (as he admitted). TSN in its recent article themselves admit words like 'and they will never separate until they see me at the pond' are authentic expressions.

So i would like to see your strategy here:

1. Will you try to weaken any of the two Hasan chains ?

2. Will you try to somehow prove the wording is faulty, and this would be far too easy for us , with due respect to counter.

We will wait and see. As we have said, prove your point, if its is convincing, we will accept. I feel you will be able to do neither and so may attempt to try to now attack the interpretation, like Islamqa have done.  We feel this is really the only option you have left - to accept it is authentic, and then to change the T'awil.

[whoaretheshia]

And I have a simple question for you, in regards to Thaqalayn.

Until Arafah as per authentic ahadeeth, by more than one Sahabi, the means holding which people would never go astray was Quran alone(as there was no mention of Ahlulbayt at Arafah).

The religion was perfected in Arafah.

There is one version of Hadeeth in Ghadeer which singles out Quran again as means holding which people will not go astray.

Keeping all these factors in mind, do you think that after deen was perfected in Arafah, a couple of days later, a new means of guidance was added alongside Quran holding which people will not go astray?

These can be easily addressed but as we have stated clearly, before we jump to that discussion we want to ascertain the reliability of the Hadith we are mentioning. We have stated this clearly at the beginning of our article on our website.

[whoaretheshia]

If you attempt to attack the T'awil, it will only prove our point. How? Youpunctured has been promoting the idea foremost a decade that the traditions with the word 'if you hold onto that/them' is weak. This was their signature argument, to try to weaken it because the implications of accepting the text are obvious. The website showed a complete ignorance with all due respect, of the reliable traditions and the fact this one was narrated in other books of the Ahlus-Sunnah. They did not even quote it.

Instead, they have relied on a tradition by Zayd , when he was not only extremely old, he admitted his memory had long started to decline and it was hard for him to remember quite a number of things he had memorised. We aren't going to say throw him out or call him weak when he narrates in this state, but only consider the fact that while you may believe the companions were all upright and righteous, they were still human. They could grow old, and their memories could weaken as had been admitted by Zayd. This means his memory and retention were not what they used to be, and it explains why his report omits authentic expressions found in other reports. That is all we are saying.

I have read attempts to try to weaken Qasim b. Hassan based on words by Bukhari, however that is not how Rijal works. Bukhari is not a Hujjah (no scholar is) , and a number of scholars have vouched for his authenticity , Al Hajar declared him Maqbul and even al-Albani accepted the chain is Hasan. Attempting to weaken it via Jarh and T'adil will not work here, with respect.

[whoaretheshia]

If youpunctured are going to respond, anything they say about the interpretation will be irrelevant for we want to establish if the statement 'if you hold onto that/them' you will never go astray is authentic. There is no doubt it is. For now, we do not at all bother about the context, but we first want an agreement that it is indeed an authentic expression.

[whoaretheshia]

SubhanAllah, despite linking TSN on our own website, brother Farid has decided to remove our link. How can anyone refute us and vice versa? We know being linked is not a right, but what you are now doing is stifling any kind of academic debate.

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

Ofcourse,

Thanks .

So i would like to see your strategy here:

1. Will you try to weaken any of the two Hasan chains ?

2. Will you try to somehow prove the wording is faulty, and this would be far too easy for us , with due respect to counter.

I'll do both InshaAllah.

Because both problems are interlinked. Because of defects in the narrators the text of the narrated was transmitted in faulty way going against the stronger version of hadeeth. As simple as that. This will be explained in detail InshaAllah.

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

These can be easily addressed but as we have stated clearly, before we jump to that discussion we want to ascertain the reliability of the Hadith we are mentioning. We have stated this clearly at the beginning of our article on our website.

A hadeeth consists of chain and text both. Not just chain . And with these external strong evidences, the fault in the text of hadeeth you are clinging on can easily be proven to people who are unbiased.

[whoaretheshia]

Thanks .

I'll do both InshaAllah.

Because both problems are interlinked. Because of defects in the narrators the text of the narrated was transmitted in faulty way going against the stronger version of hadeeth. As simple as that. This will be explained in detail InshaAllah.

SubhanAllah, we did not expect you to attempt to use this line of reasoning. If you try to do that, it is going to be very easy for us to address your point and not even TSN in their articles have used this kind of understanding. One error you are making is claiming the two Hasan versions go against the other one. I say, they do not go against it, they merely add an authentic expression, and the two Hasan chains corroborate each other and are elevated. to Saheeh li Ghayri. 

Even TSN in its article admitted owing to the reliability of additional chains, one can verify that statements like "and they will never separate until they reach the pond" are authentic expressions. Here is their article: http://twelvershia.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Authentic-Expressions-of-Thaqalayn.pdf

Not even TSN have attempted to do what you say you are about to. They took a different line entirely, by accepting but then making their own T'awil.

[whoaretheshia]

A hadeeth consists of chain and text both. Not just chain . And with these external strong evidences, the fault in the text of hadeeth you are clinging on can easily be proven to people who are unbiased.

The hadith comes through two Hasan chains. It become Saheeh li Ghayri. The words 'if you hold onto them you will never go astray' as corroborated in well over twenty other additional chains. They have been accepted by many of your scholars who have instead, opted to just make their own T'awil about what the tradition is saying.

The one in Saheeh Muslim comes from Zayd at a time he was very old, complained he was extremely old and forgotten a number of things he memorised about the Prophet. This is the best explanation as to why he does not include authentic expressions contained in far more chains, and a number of them being reliable. Remember, the versions i have cited do not explicitly contradict or go against Zayd, they only add in statements he missed out.

I am now convinced youpunctured has settled itself on its own method of Rijal accusing all others who do not conform to its particular application as ignorant of the science as well as hurling insults at them, in an attempt to intimidate.

If you are going to try to weaken the Hasan chains, then i would like to see you go against the verdict of Ibn Hajar, al-Albani, Arnaut et al. It isn't the first time i have seen that.  You aren't arguing against me, but you are arguing against these scholars.

I am convinced you will cede and admit they are authentic expressions, but then like the majority just opt to make T'awil on them. However this thread with all due respect will prove you consider the words problematic and explicitly supporting the Shia view,  such that you are going through the route of weakening things most have not even weakened.

[Abu Muhammad]

@whoaretheshia,

Have you ever heard of hadith called "syadz"?