Why Should I Believe In the Imamate of the 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th?

[Rationalist]

Brother Link is always here to debate others about Imamate or Waliyah. In the Sunnis biographies the first 8 are well recognized, however, the remaining 3 although they are respected and come from a noble lineage, them being imams  at childhood age is rejected by non-12ers. The 12ers on the other hand,  are trying to convince us that these imams became imams immediately after their fathers passed away. Again if we look at history they didn't even reach the age of maturity, and are considered imams at a childhood age by the 12ers. Anyway, brother Link, can you convince me these Imams you numbered 9, 10, 11 and 12 were actually Imams of the Ummah? As for proof please provide their ahadith from the 12er SHia books. Don't give me analogies such as Prophet Isa (as) being able to speak from a cradle. Also, don't give me proof that the rulers of the time were tyrants, therefore these are the Imams. Also, prevent replying with questions such as if these were not Imams who were the imams at the time. I want to be able to read the 12er Shia books and be convinced that  the imams you numbered 9,10, 11 and 12 were the only imams of the ummah. Again this does not mean you show me ahadith where it says they are imams. Instead I want ahadith which display that their knowledge which is beyond others.

[Link]

If you accept proof of Wilayah and Authority of Auli-Mohammad in Quran and hadiths that reached tawatur and are accepted by both sects,  then it remains that it's upon Allah [swt] and his Messenger [sa] to provide clear proofs regarding this affair. 

The way to do that is to emphasize that since Prophethood has ended, and books from God aren't going to be revealed as a standing sign and proof of the person holding Wilayah specifically is through Rasool himself giving

 1. Emphasizing On a number

2. Names of them according to that number.

We have only one set of names with one set of number emphasized by hadiths. Now of course if any sect would have such hadiths that they believed to be authentic, they would cease to be that sect. So the proof is in this rational that it would be clarified.

Just as God safeguarded the Quran, in the same, he has safeguarded that there is only one real set of hadiths naming all Imams that coincides with the number given by the Nabi. Not with standing copyist errors that might make the number of Imams 13 or 11 when the intended 12 but miscalculated, the number is only 12.

Just like we have hadiths clarifying the obligatory Salah, how many of them are we to perform, and then the exact details clarified in the Sunnah.....we would expect the same is true of Wilayah.

The fact that no other sect has the names of the Imams included in numerous of hadiths they hold, and according to a number with many of the hadiths they hold, shows, just like there aren't different versions of Quran that are all together a different Quran, that God safeguarded the way to know exactly who the Ulil-Amr from this nation we have to recognize.

[Rationalist]

If you accept proof of Wilayah and Authority of Auli-Mohammad in Quran and hadiths that reached tawatur and are accepted by both sects,  then it remains that it's upon Allah [swt] and his Messenger [sa] to provide clear proofs regarding this affair. 

What does Waliyah mean in your belief? Is a limitation of a dozen men who attain ilm-al Jafar? If we go into epistemology, the Prophets received wahi as their source of knowledge directly from Allah. So we are ordered to believe in them. Then it was the Imams (ie Imams Ali and his two sons) who learned under them. Then the golden chain continues until Imam Ali Rida (as).  Now the issue is with the Imam you numbered 9,10,11 and 12 these Imams did not spend enough time with their fathers to become Imams or to lead the Ummah. How can you convince me they were the most knowledgeable men of the time? What is their source of knowledge after their father's passed away?

The way to do that is to emphasize that since Prophethood has ended, and books from God aren't going to be revealed as a standing sign and proof of the person holding Wilayah specifically is through Rasool himself giving

Again how is Waliyah held? In the Sunni belief it was Imam Ali (as) who spend a lot of time with the Prophet (pbuh). So his source of knowledge would be  considered outstanding.

1. Emphasizing On a number

2. Names of them according to that number.

We have only one set of names with one set of number emphasized by hadiths. Now of course if any sect would have such hadiths that they believed to be authentic, they would cease to be that sect. So the proof is in this rational that it would be clarified.

Just as God safeguarded the Quran, in the same, he has safeguarded that there is only one real set of hadiths naming all Imams that coincides with the number given by the Nabi. Not with standing copyist errors that might make the number of Imams 13 or 11 when the intended 12 but miscalculated, the number is only 12.
 

The issue is Imam Baqer (as) and Imam Jafar (as) never told the entire Ummah that they are the 5th Imam or the 6th Imam. Also when Imam Ali (as) got in power he never told the people who gave him bayah 'I am the only Calipah, and you must reject the rest before me.' On the contrary, there is a report in Al Kafi where the Mutazilla come to Imam Jafar and tell him to give bayah to Imam Nafs-az-Zakiyah (as). In that so called discussion, Imam Jafar tells the Mutazilla to reject the 3 Calipahs, whereas Imam Ali (as) never did this when he became a Calipah. Any explanation other than Taqiyyah? Again in that same ahadith Imam Jafar never mentions that he is the 6th Calipah, and there are 6 more to come.
Even in Najh Al Balagha there is not a single page which mentions the 12 Imams. I wonder why?
So what the 12ers like yourself is do is attack the 3 Calipahs, but even with all the attacks it still doesn't prove to me that there are 12 Imams. In fact, when you declare the 12th Imam to be imam of the time, I see that to be a contradiction toward the Quran.

Just like we have hadiths clarifying the obligatory Salah, how many of them are we to perform, and then the exact details clarified in the Sunnah.....we would expect the same is true of Wilayah.

The 12ers claim the 12 Imams were mentioned in the bible, but I find it strange how this was missed in the Quran. Also, all the fard salah are mentioned in the Quran, whereas the case with the 12 Imams only the first 3 are present when the Quran was revealed in regards to their purification.

The fact that no other sect has the names of the Imams included in numerous of hadiths they hold, and according to a number with many of the hadiths they hold, shows, just like there aren't different versions of Quran that are all together a different Quran, that God safeguarded the way to know exactly who the Ulil-Amr from this nation we have to recognize.

No other sect has this 12 Calipah ahadith. It might be sahih in Sunni books, but sadly so are ahadith such as Abu Talib being a non-Muslim nauzbillah. So just like how I reject that ahadith against Abu Talib which is Sahih, I also reject the 12 Calipah ahadith which again is not mutawatir. Likewise the same applies to ahadith which talk about the Mahdi. They too are exaggerated by the Shia sect, and they made their way into Sunni sources.

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It's the holy state they are in that makes understanding the truth and seeing the truth is easy for them. The Quran has a light and they understand in a way others don't. Just like the Tabut in Bani-Israel had the inheritance of the knowledge of the family of Musa and Harun, the same is true of what was passed down from Imam to Imam.  They also have sure vision of God's Ayat can lead people upon the path with sure vision and understanding. Aside from that, we see non-Prophets can be talked to by God, and so I believe they were talked to by God.

To me the definition of a Prophet is a simple. He brings a revelation from God to the people mainly his book that manifests his eloquence, his names, his glory and reveals his name in perfect truth. Mariam was told to say things to the people by God but was not a Prophet, because there wasn't direct words being revealed to people by Mariam that people were expected to hold on to. 

What makes a Prophet to me is simply, he receives a revelation to convey to people. What makes a Messenger a Messenger is that he ought to bring a message that is conveyed to the levels of intellect of all people, it brings down the truth. While all Messengers by definition are Prophets, some Prophets revelation worked with a message already clarifying the truth to the people, and they are revealing more things relevant to their times and place, as well, as can be revealing knowledge or emphasizing on some things that are more then the clear message of the religion.  These revelations are really of God addressing the people through them.

Prophets come with "scriptures", in particular, it refers to a revelation he wants to be conveyed to people on his behalf, they are God's words. These words also like the Quran prove the Prophethood of that Prophet for generations that follow or for people who don't witness miracles with their own eyes.

[Rationalist]

It's the holy state they are in that makes understanding the truth and seeing the truth is easy for them. The Quran has a light and they understand in a way others don't. Just like the Tabut in Bani-Israel had the inheritance of the knowledge of the family of Musa and Harun, the same is true of what was passed down from Imam to Imam.  They also have sure vision of God's Ayat can lead people upon the path with sure vision and understanding.

Harun (as) is a Prophet. So his source of knowledge is Wahi. Also how does knowledge pass from Imam to Imam, when the father of the Imam dies when his son is just a child.

Aside from that, we see non-Prophets can be talked to by God, and so I believe they were talked to by God.

Please provide examples?

To me the definition of a Prophet is a simple. He brings a revelation from God to the people mainly his book that manifests his eloquence, his names, his glory and reveals his name in perfect truth. Mariam was told to say things to the people by God but was not a Prophet, because there wasn't direct words being revealed to people by Mariam that people were expected to hold on to. 

I actually support Ibn Hazm's view and believe there are four female Prophets.

What makes a Prophet to me is simply, he receives a revelation to convey to people. What makes a Messenger a Messenger is that he ought to bring a message that is conveyed to the levels of intellect of all people, it brings down the truth. While all Messengers by definition are Prophets, some Prophets revelation worked with a message already clarifying the truth to the people, and they are revealing more things relevant to their times and place, as well, as can be revealing knowledge or emphasizing on some things that are more then the clear message of the religion.  These revelations are really of God addressing the people through them.

And the Imamate. What is their source of knowledge? Jafr?

Prophets come with "scriptures", in particular, it refers to a revelation he wants to be conveyed to people on his behalf, they are God's words. These words also like the Quran prove the Prophethood of that Prophet for generations that follow or for people who don't witness miracles with their own eyes.

I believe in Prophets, so again you are not debating a non-Muslim.

[Link]

Was Pharaoh also a Prophet since he was talked to by God while on earth?

[Link]

The Quran says Prophets were raised with the book as givers of warnings and glad tidings. It also states elsewhere God didn't send before him except MEN who he revealed to. In Suratal Nahl in then emphasizes with clear proofs as well as scriptures (al-zaboor).

[Rationalist]

The Quran says Prophets were raised with the book as givers of warnings and glad tidings. It also states elsewhere God didn't send before him except MEN who he revealed to. In Suratal Nahl in then emphasizes with clear proofs as well as scriptures (al-zaboor).

Of course because the responsibility of male Prophet differs from female Prophets.
Like, Fatima (sa) had knowledge to become an Imam, but she doesn't have the responsibilities of an Imam. 

[Link]

I don't think there is a single verse that defines Nubuwa as being talked to by God. Pharaoh would of been a Nabi if you become a Prophet by being talked to by God.

Other verses show Prophets were sent to their people and another verse shows only men were sent with revelation to their people.

[Rationalist]

I don't think there is a single verse that defines Nubuwa as being talked to by God. Pharaoh would of been a Nabi if you become a Prophet by being talked to by God.

That's only if  you allow Shaitaan to mess with your thinking.

Other verses show Prophets were sent to their people and another verse shows only men were sent with revelation to their people.

Okay even if we take your word for it, wahi is general cannot come after Prophet Muhammd (pbuh). So again what is the source of knowledge from the Imams. Also, this time, bring in proofs from the 12er Shia books of ahadith. I understand a compiler like Kuylani said the Quran is incomplete, and Bukhari said Abu Talib is non-Muslim, but since you believe the Imamate ahadith is equal to the Quran then provide your proofs from it.