Twelve Leaders of Quraysh

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

Salaam.

According to Ahlul Sunnah there were many Caliphs who ruled over Muslims so they get confounded by the hadith of Twelve Caliphs. Its over thousand years the identity of those twelve caliphs remain unknown. Those who did try to investigate about identities of those 12 individuals ended up disagreeing with one another about their identities. Because of their ignorance & disagreement on 12 Caliphs Ahlul Sunnah are unable to provide the names of those 12 individuals with evidence.

On the other hand, al-Hamdulillah brother Haqq rightly stated that we Twelver Shias are at upper hand because we all Twelver Shias agree on who those 12 Caliphs are. There is no ignorance nor disagreement between Twelver Shias regarding their identities.

We Twelver Shias believes 12 Aimmah (a.s) ruled this Ummah in the same way Prophets (a.s) ruled in their Ummah. Aimmah (a.s) rule was like that of Prophets (a.s) and not like the rule of Nimrod or Pharaoh. Banu Ummaya & Banu Abbas ruled like Pharaohs & Nimrod so definitely they are excluded from 12 Caliph hadith.

Yup twelvers didnt disagree after twelfth Imam, but before that Shias did have a lot of disagreements. So Shiism before the twelfth Imam had a lot of disagreements in it. That goes till the third century.

While Sunnis are in agreement that about the initial Caliphs from amongst the twelve Caliphs, and they have backing from the hadeeth of Prophet(saws) which is a hujjah on Muslims.

[Abu Muhammad]

Errr... I thought there was an imam succeeding Isa (as) after he (as) was taken up to heaven. Therefore, the ummah at that time were supposed to be under the imamat of Isa (as)'s successor and not Isa (as) himself, right? ... 

@Ijtaba

-bump-

[muslim720]

It has been narrated by Abu Huraira that the Prophet (may pceace be upon him) said:

Banu Isra'il were ruled over by the Prophets. When one Prophet died, another succeeded him; but after me there is no prophet and there will be caliphs and they will be quite large in number. His Companions said: What do you order us to do (in case we come to have more than one Caliph)? He said: The one to whom allegiance is sworn first has a supremacy over the others. Concede to them their due rights (i. e. obey them). God (Himself) will question them about the subjects whom He had entrusted to them.

Reference: Sahih Muslim 1842 a
In-book reference: Book 33, Hadith 71
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Book 20, Hadith 4543

Two things jump out:

1.  "When one Prophet died, another succeeded him" does not affirm or negate a time gap between Prophets (asws).  In other words, this hadith is not a commentary on the time period between two Prophets (asws), whether there would be a waiting period or not (and how long this waiting period would be).  The next sentence "but after me there is no prophet" clarifies that the Holy Prophet (saw) was only making a point in regards to himself being the Seal of the Prophets. 

2.  This hadith is presented to substantiate the rule of the 12th Imam and by extension, Imamah in general, going back to Imam Ali (ra).  What the Shias fail to highlight is that the same tradition reads, "The one to whom allegiance is sworn first has a supremacy over the others" when it comes to Caliphs.  In other words, this narration is actually proof against Imamah because it shows that the Prophet (saw) endorsed the process of pledging allegiance/shura and established the superiority of the first one (to whom allegiance is pledged) over others.

[Hani]

Common people how can you still misunderstand the report of the 12 Caliphs? Are we being intentionally too thick? There's nothing in that report that states ONLY 12 men will rule as Caliphs, nothing says the 12 are infallible, nothing that states the 12 are divinely chosen, nothing that states the 12 are descent or praiseworthy, nothing to state the 12 are the descendants of a specific man.... For the love of God guys, all it says is the condition of the religion will continue to be good till the rule of 12 Caliphs comes to an end, in other words the condition will deteriorate with time, that's all it's saying. Now you have these wacky Twelvers who want to add a million things to this prophecy and link it to their conveniently made-up narrative, then he tells you "We're following the instructions of the Prophet (saw)" NO YOU'RE NOT, He (saw) gave a million other instructions you aren't following, all the clear words he spoke are not being followed by you! Just a random prophecy with a number, that's all you folks are good at, numerology just like the esoteric frauds of medieval times.

[Rationalist]

It has been narrated by Abu Huraira that the Prophet (may pceace be upon him) said:

Banu Isra'il were ruled over by the Prophets. When one Prophet died, another succeeded him; but after me there is no prophet and there will be caliphs and they will be quite large in number. His Companions said: What do you order us to do (in case we come to have more than one Caliph)? He said: The one to whom allegiance is sworn first has a supremacy over the others. Concede to them their due rights (i. e. obey them). God (Himself) will question them about the subjects whom He had entrusted to them.

Reference: Sahih Muslim 1842 a
In-book reference: Book 33, Hadith 71
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Book 20, Hadith 4543

Abu Huraira hadith are also problematic. His hadith say there is no Prophet between Isa (as) and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). I disagree. There were Prophets in between. Surah Yasin mentions them implicitly.
 

During those 600 years there was no apparent Prophet like at present there is no apparent Imam.

Nabi Isa (a.s) did not die and was taken up alive to Heavens like Imam Mehdi (a.s) did not die and went alive into Ghaybah.

Nabi Isa (a.s) will come (descend from Heavens) in the End of times like Imam Mehdi (a.s) will come (out of Ghaybah) in the End of times.

The Ummah does not have an ijma on this. Some Muslims believe Prophet Isa (as) died. I believe Imam Ghazali had this view. In fact even Shaykh Saduq had this view. So again your qiyas is flawed.

[Ijtaba]

Yup twelvers didnt disagree after twelfth Imam, but before that Shias did have a lot of disagreements. So Shiism before the twelfth Imam had a lot of disagreements in it. That goes till the third century.

While Sunnis are in agreement that about the initial Caliphs from amongst the twelve Caliphs, and they have backing from the hadeeth of Prophet(saws) which is a hujjah on Muslims.

We Twelvers had a lot of disagreements before Twelfth Imam (a.s). Care to list those disagreements i.e. on which Twelver Imam's (a.s) did Shias disagree and how did that disagreement disappear?

Sunnis are in agreement about initial Caliphs from Twelve Caliphs with hujjah... please provide that hadith which is hujjah on Muslims. What about remaining Caliphs? No hadith regarding remaining caliphs of Twelve Caliphs? Is Imam Mehdi (a.s) included in the remaining Caliphs of Twelve Caliphs? If yes the what about in-between caliphs i.e. Caliphs between Initial Caliphs and Imam Mehdi (a.s)?

[Ijtaba]

Errr... I thought there was an imam succeeding Isa (as) after he (as) was taken up to heaven. Therefore, the ummah at that time were supposed to be under the imamat of Isa (as)'s successor and not Isa (as) himself, right? ... 

Yes, we Twelvers believe that Nabi Isa (a.s) had a successor named Shamoun (a.s) as according to us Twelvers every Nabi (a.s) has a successor. I had replied in context with the hadith in which it was stated that a Prophet (a.s) used to succeed in ruling Bani Israel after the death of Prophet (a.s).

[Ijtaba]

Two things jump out:

1.  "When one Prophet died, another succeeded him" does not affirm or negate a time gap between Prophets (asws).  In other words, this hadith is not a commentary on the time period between two Prophets (asws), whether there would be a waiting period or not (and how long this waiting period would be).  The next sentence "but after me there is no prophet" clarifies that the Holy Prophet (saw) was only making a point in regards to himself being the Seal of the Prophets.

SURAH 5:19 (SAHIH INTERNATIONAL)
O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger to make clear to you [the religion] after a period [of suspension] of messengers, lest you say, "There came not to us any bringer of good tidings or a warner." But there has come to you a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And Allah is over all things competent.

Messengers used to succeed one another but there was a gap between Nabi Isa (a.s) and Nabi Mohammed (s.a.w.w). So the hadiths is saying that in Bani Israel after the death of a Prophet (a.s) another Prophet (a.s) would succeed him (a.s) in ruling Bani Israel.

2.  This hadith is presented to substantiate the rule of the 12th Imam and by extension, Imamah in general, going back to Imam Ali (ra).  What the Shias fail to highlight is that the same tradition reads, "The one to whom allegiance is sworn first has a supremacy over the others" when it comes to Caliphs.  In other words, this narration is actually proof against Imamah because it shows that the Prophet (saw) endorsed the process of pledging allegiance/shura and established the superiority of the first one (to whom allegiance is pledged) over others.

May I know how many Caliphs were pledged allegiance through the process of Shura as endorsed by the Prophet (s.a.w.w)?

Also in the time of ibn Zubayr and Yazid/Marwan who was the true Caliph as they were 2 Caliphs?

[Ijtaba]

Abu Huraira hadith are also problematic. His hadith say there is no Prophet between Isa (as) and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). I disagree. There were Prophets in between. Surah Yasin mentions them implicitly.

SURAH 5:19 (SAHIH INTERNATIONAL)

O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger to make clear to you [the religion] after a period [of suspension] of messengers, lest you say, "There came not to us any bringer of good tidings or a warner." But there has come to you a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And Allah is over all things competent.
 

The Ummah does not have an ijma on this. Some Muslims believe Prophet Isa (as) died. I believe Imam Ghazali had this view. In fact even Shaykh Saduq had this view. So again your qiyas is flawed.

Evidence provided by Ghazali and Shaykh Saduq for their such belief?

And what about following Ayats?

SURAH 43:58-61 (SAHIH INTERNATIONAL)

And when the son of Mary was presented as an example, immediately your people laughed aloud.

And they said, "Are our gods better, or is he?" They did not present the comparison except for [mere] argument. But, [in fact], they are a people prone to dispute.

Jesus was not but a servant upon whom We bestowed favor, and We made him an example for the Children of Israel.
And if We willed, We could have made [instead] of you angels succeeding [one another] on the earth.

And indeed, Jesus will be [a sign for] knowledge of the Hour, so be not in doubt of it, and follow Me. This is a straight path.

[Rationalist]

SURAH 5:19 (SAHIH INTERNATIONAL)

O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger to make clear to you [the religion] after a period [of suspension] of messengers, lest you say, "There came not to us any bringer of good tidings or a warner." But there has come to you a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And Allah is over all things competent.

Are you shooting yourself on the foot witht this verse? If the suspension is present than the Imamate is supsended as per your anaology.  Anyways messengers coming after Isa (as) were  not Israeli.

Surat Yasin 36:13-14:

وَاضْرِبْ لَهُم مَّثَلًا أَصْحَابَ الْقَرْيَةِ إِذْ جَاءَهَا الْمُرْسَلُونَ إِذْ أَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهِمُ اثْنَيْنِ فَكَذَّبُوهُمَا فَعَزَّزْنَا بِثَالِثٍ فَقَالُوا إِنَّا إِلَيْكُم مُّرْسَلُونَ

And present to them an example: the people of the city, when the messengers came to it when We sent to them two but they denied them, so We strengthened them with a third, and they said, "Indeed, we are messengers

Evidence provided by Ghazali and Shaykh Saduq for their such belief?

For Ghazali refer to this link.

https://shaykhatabekshukurov.com/2018/05/05/prophet-jesus-as-return-between-myth-and-reality-part-1/

For Shaykh Saduq


http://www.sicm.org.uk/index.php?page=suduk/Suduk18

And what about following Ayats?

Everyone has a legit defense. Refer to the article.

[Ijtaba]

Are you shooting yourself on the foot witht this verse? If the suspension is present than the Imamate is supsended as per your anaology.  Anyways messengers coming after Isa (as) were  not Israeli.

Surat Yasin 36:13-14:

وَاضْرِبْ لَهُم مَّثَلًا أَصْحَابَ الْقَرْيَةِ إِذْ جَاءَهَا الْمُرْسَلُونَ إِذْ أَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهِمُ اثْنَيْنِ فَكَذَّبُوهُمَا فَعَزَّزْنَا بِثَالِثٍ فَقَالُوا إِنَّا إِلَيْكُم مُّرْسَلُونَ

And present to them an example: the people of the city, when the messengers came to it when We sent to them two but they denied them, so We strengthened them with a third, and they said, "Indeed, we are messengers

This is news to me. Who were these non-Israeli messengers and to which nation they were sent because as for the Ayat I gave ALLAH (SWT) is addressing People of the Book (Jews & Christians) that a Messenger has been sent towards them after a period of messengers.

I will be reading the links given by you and respond them accordingly.

[Ijtaba]

There's nothing significant in stating the number 12 as those 12 men aren't the ONLY Caliphs, nor infallible, nor divinely chosen, nor praiseworthy, nor descendants of a specific man (except that they are from Quraysh)... but what hadith is stating is the condition of the religion that will continue to be good till the rule of 12 unknown Caliphs comes to an end, in other words the condition will deteriorate with time, that's all it's saying.

May I know out of four Khalifa tur Rashida, Banu Ummaya, Banu Abbas - all of whom belong to Quraysh + Ottomon Empire + Present modern Muslim Kings & Leaders... why only the rule of 12 unknown individuals are mentioned? Ahlul Sunnah is trying to say that the mentioning of 12 unknown individuals has no significance but what Prophet (s.a.w.w) wanted to convey is that religion will deteriorate after 12 unknown Qurayshi Caliphs have ruled. Simple as that.

May I also know if the mentioning of 12 unknown individuals meant nothing or is insignificant then why did Sahabas recite loudly ALLAH U AKBAR when Prophet (s.a.w.w) mentioned religion remaining strong till the time of twelve caliphs?

Narrated Jabir b. Samurah:
I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say: This religion will continue to be strong till the time of twelve caliphs. The people then uttered: Allah is more great and uproared. He then silently a word which I could not understand. So I said to my father: What did he say, father ? He said: All of them will belong to Quraish.

Grade   : Sahih (Al-Albani)   
Reference    : Sunan Abi Dawud 4280
In-book reference    : Book 38, Hadith 2
English translation    : Book 37, Hadith 4267

[Rationalist]

This is news to me. Who were these non-Israeli messengers and to which nation they were sent because as for the Ayat I gave ALLAH (SWT) is addressing People of the Book (Jews & Christians) that a Messenger has been sent towards them after a period of messengers.

I will be reading the links given by you and respond them accordingly.

The narrations we have only give one Prophets name. We dont have the names of the other two. This Prophet's name is Khalid bin Sinan. Even 12er Shia have a hadith aboit him.

https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol-1-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/account-khalid-bin-sinan

[muslim720]

Messengers used to succeed one another but there was a gap between Nabi Isa (a.s) and Nabi Mohammed (s.a.w.w). So the hadiths is saying that in Bani Israel after the death of a Prophet (a.s) another Prophet (a.s) would succeed him (a.s) in ruling Bani Israel.

No matter which way you present the Qur'anic verse or the hadith, it has nothing to do with the concept of Imamah, let alone your selected 12 Imams (ra).

May I know how many Caliphs were pledged allegiance through the process of Shura as endorsed by the Prophet (s.a.w.w)?

At least the first four!  For the first three, even Imam Ali (ra) was a willing participant in bayah so being his follower, you should be the last person to object.

Also in the time of ibn Zubayr and Yazid/Marwan who was the true Caliph as they were 2 Caliphs?

...has no bearing on my aqeedah!

[Abu Muhammad]

Yes, we Twelvers believe that Nabi Isa (a.s) had a successor named Shamoun (a.s) as according to us Twelvers every Nabi (a.s) has a successor. I had replied in context with the hadith in which it was stated that a Prophet (a.s) used to succeed in ruling Bani Israel after the death of Prophet (a.s).

Then, from your answer above, it clearly shows that some other infallibles were ruling the ummah after Isa (as) was taken up to heaven and not Isa (as) himself. Thank you...

Hence, your comparison between the 12th Imam and Isa (as) has failed.

So does your premise below when it comes to your 12th Imam:

We Twelver Shias believes 12 Aimmah (a.s) ruled this Ummah in the same way Prophets (a.s) ruled in their Ummah. Aimmah (a.s) rule was like that of Prophets (a.s) and not like the rule of Nimrod or Pharaoh. Banu Ummaya & Banu Abbas ruled like Pharaohs & Nimrod so definitely they are excluded from 12 Caliph hadith.

[Ijtaba]

The narrations we have only give one Prophets name. We dont have the names of the other two. This Prophet's name is Khalid bin Sinan. Even 12er Shia have a hadith aboit him.

https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol-1-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/account-khalid-bin-sinan

Below are hadiths which unequivocally mentions that there has been no Prophet/Messenger raised between Nabi Isa (a.s) and Nabi Mohammed (s.a.w.w):

Narrated Abu Huraira:

I heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) saying, "I am the nearest of all the people to the son of Mary, and all the prophets are paternal brothers, and there has been no prophet between me and him (i.e. Jesus).

Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 3442
In-book reference: Book 60, Hadith 112
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Vol. 4, Book 55, Hadith 651


Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying:

I am most akin to the son of Mary among the whole of mankind and the Prophets are of different mothers, but of one religion, and no Prophet was raised between me and him (Jesus Christ).

Reference: Sahih Muslim 2365 a
In-book reference: Book 43, Hadith 188
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Book 30, Hadith 5834


Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying:

I am most akin to Jesus Christ among the whole of mankind, and all the Prophets are of different mothers but belong to one religion and no Prophet was raised between me and Jesus.

Reference: Sahih Muslim 2365 b
In-book reference: Book 43, Hadith 189
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Book 30, Hadith 5835


Abu Huraira reported many ahadith from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and one is that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said:

I am most close to Jesus, son of Mary, among the whole of mankind in this worldly life and the next life. They said: Allah's Messenger how is it? Thereupon he said: Prophets are brothers in faith, having different mothers. Their religion is, however, one and there is no Apostle between us (between I and Jesus Christ).

Reference: Sahih Muslim 2365 c
In-book reference: Book 43, Hadith 190
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Book 30, Hadith 5836


Hadith proving following:

- No Prophet raised between Nabi Isa (a.s) and Nabi Mohammed (s.a.w.w)

- Nabi Isa (a.s) descending and not resurrecting thus indicating that Nabi Isa (a.s) did not die but was taken up to heavens alive.

- Nabi Isa (a.s) dying.

Narrated Abu Hurayrah:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (ﷺ). He will descent (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him.

Grade   : Sahih (Al-Albani)   
Reference    : Sunan Abi Dawud 4324
In-book reference    : Book 39, Hadith 34
English translation    : Book 38, Hadith 4310


Abu Huraira proving my interpretation of the Ayat which I had given before to be correct:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, surely (Jesus,) the son of Mary will soon descend amongst you and will judge mankind justly (as a Just Ruler); he will break the Cross and kill the pigs and there will be no Jizya (i.e. taxation taken from non Muslims). Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it, and a single prostration to Allah (in prayer) will be better than the whole world and whatever is in it." Abu Huraira added "If you wish, you can recite (this verse of the Holy Book): -- 'And there is none Of the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (i.e Jesus as an Apostle of Allah and a human being) Before his death. And on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness Against them." (4.159) (See Fath-ul-Bari, Page 302 Vol 7)

Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 3448
In-book reference: Book 60, Hadith 118
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Vol. 4, Book 55, Hadith 657

[Ijtaba]

No matter which way you present the Qur'anic verse or the hadith, it has nothing to do with the concept of Imamah, let alone your selected 12 Imams (ra).

Its your opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but it isn't necessary that their opinion is a fact.

At least the first four!  For the first three, even Imam Ali (ra) was a willing participant in bayah so being his follower, you should be the last person to object.

Then what about rest of them? I mean to ask about Banu Ummaya, Banu Abbas, Ottomon Empire, Modern era Rulers? As they have not been pledged allegiance through the process of Shura as endorsed by the Prophet (s.a.w.w) so is their leadership illegitimate?

...has no bearing on my aqeedah!

I am asking who was legitimate Caliph at that time since there were two caliphs... one at Medina and one at Syria. In this situation who was rightful Caliph according to Prophetic Hadith (as there can't be two caliphs at one time)?

[Ijtaba]

Then, from your answer above, it clearly shows that some other infallibles were ruling the ummah after Isa (as) was taken up to heaven and not Isa (as) himself. Thank you...

Hence, your comparison between the 12th Imam and Isa (as) has failed.

But we Twelvers also believe that at any given time Infallible should be on earth otherwise the earth would perish. When Nabi Isa (a.s) was taken up to Heavens there needed to be an Infallible on earth.

As of now Imam Mehdi (a.s) is still on Earth so no need for Infallible to succeed him (a.s). If Imam Mehdi (a.s) was to be taken up to the Heavens alive then definitely he would be succeed by another Infallible just like Nabi Isa (a.s) succeeded by another infallible (Shamoun a.s)

[wannabe]

https://www.quora.com/Was-there-any-prophet-between-Jesus-and-Mohammed
a quote from an answer with the most upvotes

By comparing these two traditions and the verse of the Holy Quran we understand that between Jesus and Mohammad (S)' time there were different pious people that represented Allah by different responsibilities. For example, some of them were famous prophets and the others were not prophet and they were just a Hujja of Allah on earth or a successor of the previous prophets and in many occasions they were not very famous.
But we can know some of them by the verses of the Holy Quran, as says; "When We sent to them two [apostles], they impugned both of them. Then We reinforced them with a third, and they said," We have indeed been sent to you." [36:14]
Under this verse it has been said that: these two apostles were John or Toman or Baruz or Marus or Jonah and the third one was Simon/Peter the true successor of Jesus.

[Abu Muhammad]

But we Twelvers also believe that at any given time Infallible should be on earth otherwise the earth would perish. When Nabi Isa (a.s) was taken up to Heavens there needed to be an Infallible on earth.

As of now Imam Mehdi (a.s) is still on Earth so no need for Infallible to succeed him (a.s). If Imam Mehdi (a.s) was to be taken up to the Heavens alive then definitely he would be succeed by another Infallible just like Nabi Isa (a.s) succeeded by another infallible (Shamoun a.s)

Thank you again. You were just strengthening my argument. Maybe you need to re-read our previous posts to understand why I said that... ☺

Hence, your previous comparison between the 12th Imam and Isa (as) has completely failed.