Ulil-Amr (another analysis)

[Farid]

@ Link:

The Imams did not hold the same view that you did. Take this narration for example:

Ali bin Ibrahim from his father from Ibn Abi Umair from Umar bin Uthayna from Buraid bin Mu’awiyah, he said: Abu Ja’afar recited, “O’ you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger and those in authority amongst you,” [Surat Al-Nisa’a: 59] He then said, “How can he order to obedience but not in disagreement? He said this to those that were ordered, those that were told to: Obey Allah and obey His Messenger.”

The Imams taught that the current Qur'an was incorrect because of inconsistency.

Thoughts?

[Link]

This is not my translations:


H 525, Ch. 16, h 1
Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad ibn 'Amir al-Ash'ari has narrated from MuAlia ibn Muhammad
who has said that al-Hasan ibn Ali al-Washsha' narrated to him from Ahmad ibn ‘A'idh from
ibn ’Udhayna from Burayd al-‘Ijli who said that he asked abu Ja'far
(a.s.) about the meaning of the following words of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High,
"Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those who possess (Divine) authority among
you." (4:59 Holy Quran). The read the following words of Allah. "Have you seen how those
who had been given a share of the Book believe in idols and Satan and who say, "The
disbelievers are better guided than the believers" (4:51) ‘The say that the leaders of
misguidance and those who call people to Hell’ "God has condemned them. No one can help
one whomGod has condemned. (4:52) Do they have a share in the Kingdom (Divine authority
and Imamat)? Even if they did, they would not have given the smallest thing to the
people." (4:53) " People is a reference to us and the word ‘Naqir’ means the seed inside the
nutt." The Imams (a.s.) explained and added. "Do they enviey the favors that God has done to
some people?" ‘We are the ones who are envied because of the Divine authority that Allah
has given us exclusively.’ The Imams (a.s.) commented. "We have given to the family of
Abraham the Book, Wisdom, and a great Kingdom (4:54). Aliah says that from the
descendents of Abraham He has made His Messengers, Prophets and Imams. How is it that
these people acknowledge the case about the descents of Abraham but they refuse to accept
the leadership (Imamat) in the family of Muhammad?’ The Imams (a.s.) further explained.
"Some have believed, others have disbelieved and tried to prevent people from believing. For
these people, only the intense fire of hell is a sufficient punishment (4:55). We will make
those who reject Our revelations suffer in hell fire. As soon as the fire destroys their skins,
We will give them new skins so that they may suffer more of the torment. God is Majestic
and All-wise." (4:56 Holy Quran)
H 526, Ch. 15, h 2
A number of our people have narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from al-Husayn ibn Sa‘id
from Muhammad ibn al-Fudayl from abu al-Hassan (a.s.) who has said the following about
the words of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, Or are they envious of the people whom
Allah has granted of His bounties? ( 4:54 Holy Quran) "We are the envied ones."
H 527, Ch. 15, h 3
Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from al-Husayn ibn Sa‘id
from al-Nadr ibn Suwayd from Yahya al-Halabi from Muhammad al-Ahwal from Humran
ibn A‘yan who has said that when he asked Imam abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) about the meaning of
the words of Allah that say, "We have given to the family of Abraham the Book, Wisdom,
and a great Kingdom." (4:54) The Imams (a.s.) said, "It means Prophet-hood." I then asked
about the meaning of ‘wisdom’. The Imams (a.s.) said, "It means understanding and
judgment." I then asked about the meaning of ‘great kingdom.’ The Imams (a.s.) said, "It
means obedience."
H 528, Ch. 16, h 4
Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad has narrated from MuAlia ibn Muhammad from al-Washsha'
from Hammad ibn ‘Uthman from abu al-Sabah who has said that when asked Imam abu
‘Abdallah (a.s.) about the meaning of the words Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, "Or are
they envious of the people whom Allah has granted of His bounties? ( 4:54 Holy Quran) The
Imams (a.s.) said, "O abu al-Sabah, we, I swear by Allah, are the people who are envied."
H 529, Ch. 16, h 5
Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from Muhammad ibn abu ‘Umayr from 'Umar
ibn Udhayna from Burayd al-‘IJli from abu Ja'far (a.s.) who has said the following about the
words of Allah, the Most Holy, ""We have given to the family of Abraham the Book,
Wisdom, and a great Kingdom." (4:54)
"Great kingdom means that He set Imamat (leadership) in the descendants of Abraham,
Whoever would obey them he has obeyed Allah and whoever would disobey them has
disobeyed Allah and thus is the great kingdom."

In Uyunal Akbar:

From Imam Retha (the 8th Imam): “The Honorable the Exalted God gave distinction to the (prophetic) household over other people in the Wise Book.” Al-Ma’mun asked him (s), “Where is that in God’s Book?” Al-Reza (s) told him, “Indeed the Honorable the Exalted God says, ‘Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people. Offspring, one of the other: And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.’ In another place the Honorable the Exalted God says, ‘Or do they envy those people for what God hath given them of his bounty? So then We had already given the family of Abraham the Book and Wisdom, and conferred upon them a great authority.’ He then addressed this effect to the rest of the believers, so he said: O ye who believe Obey God, and obey the Apostle, and those with the Authority from you.’ This means those whom God has given them the Book and the Wisdom for which they are envied. Therefore, what is understood from the Honorable the Exalted God’s words, ‘Or do they envy the people for what God hath given them of his grace? So then We had already given the family of Abraham the Book and Wisdom, and conferred upon them a great authority’ This refers to obeying the Chosen Pure ones.”, so the authority here refers to the obedience owed to them.

[Link]

@ Link:

The Imams did not hold the same view that you did. Take this narration for example:

Ali bin Ibrahim from his father from Ibn Abi Umair from Umar bin Uthayna from Buraid bin Mu’awiyah, he said: Abu Ja’afar recited, “O’ you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger and those in authority amongst you,” [Surat Al-Nisa’a: 59] He then said, “How can he order to obedience but not in disagreement? He said this to those that were ordered, those that were told to: Obey Allah and obey His Messenger.”

The Imams taught that the current Qur'an was incorrect because of inconsistency.

Thoughts?

1. The Quran is protected by reasoning we know Quran holds over a hadith.
2. There is hadith from Imam Hussain where he says:

وفي الإِحتجاج عن الحسين بن علي عليه السلام في خطبته وأطيعونا فان طاعتنا مفروضة إذ كانت بطاعة الله وطاعة رسوله مقرونة قال الله تعالى أطيعوا الله وأطيعوا الرسول وأولي الأمر منكم فان تنازعتم في شيء فردوه إلى الله والرسول وقال ولو ردوه إلى الرسول وإلى أولي الأمر منهم لعلمه الذين يستنبطونه منهم ولولا فضل الله عليكم ورحمته لاتبعتم الشيطان إلا قليلاً { إنْ كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللهِ وَالْيَومِ الآخِرِ } فان الإِيمان يوجب ذلك { ذَلِكَ } أي الرد { خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلاً } من تأويلكم بلا رد.

Basically he quotes the verse as is. There is also a similar hadith from Imam Ali.

3. I don't want to get into a discussion about Tahreef.
4. The reasoning I showed shows the real problem would be if Ulil-Amr were mentioned in the referral, and the fabrications attributed to our Imams about this, just verifies to me, that the Quran is written by an author that perceives beyond humans hasty perceptions.

[Farid]

Your reasoning conflicts with the reasoning of the Imam and the reasoning of many top Shia scholars. Keep reasoning out of this. I have provided solid evidence that your understanding is incorrect. You cannot simply brush it aside with your "reasoning".

Also... Al Ihtijaaj is your source? It is a few centuries too late. I provided a primary source with an auhentic chain from your most reliable book of hadith Al Kafi. This is also in Tafseer Al Qummi, your earliest and most authoritative book of Tafseer. Your choice of Al Ihtijaaj is a biased approach, for you're simply cherry-picking whatever you like.

Is your ultimate source of guidance your own personal reasoning? If so, then you must believe in an unjust god, for nobody understands these verses in the same way that you do, and the evidence upon the creation seems to only be clear to your unique rationale.

[Link]

You don't believe our Imams said this, yet you argue by it. That's a logical fallacy.

That's not an honest discussion.

[Link]

If so, then you must believe in an unjust god, for nobody understands these verses in the same way that you do,

I remember I use to have discussion with Qaim on shiachat about these verses when he was not a Shia. He eventually came to see Ahlulbayt in Quran.  We use to discuss about the issue of true authority all the time. I know people can eventually submit and accept the truth. Now I'm sure Qaim is much better lover of Ahlulbayt that I am and perceives their truth better then I do.

The thing is it's not about whether people can perceive what I'm saying or not. It's really about hearing past the veils, reflecting past the knots or locks, and defeating what the Shayateen whisper and inspire that try to keep people from Auli-Mohammad.

It took me five years to defeat illogical recitations inspired by Satan and come back to Islam. I know Satan can make the Quran's majesty disappear in the heart, so I'm not wondering about the issue of how Satan can keep people from seeing Auli-Mohammad in Quran, in Salah, in Sunnah.

[Rationalist]

If so, then you must believe in an unjust god, for nobody understands these verses in the same way that you do,

I remember I use to have discussion with Qaim on shiachat about these verses when he was not a Shia. He eventually came to see Ahlulbayt in Quran.  We use to discuss about the issue of true authority all the time. I know people can eventually submit and accept the truth. Now I'm sure Qaim is much better lover of Ahlulbayt that I am and perceives their truth better then I do.

Are you talking about the same Qaim who believes lying is  a pillar of Islam? This is what you call recognizing the Ahlul Bayt?

Q Since when is this taqiyah ? This is just practicing good character. Taqiyah is done when you present your belief and you'llget killed as a result.


That's just one side of it. As you see in the link I posted, part of taqiyya is even praying in the first row at Sunni masajid, visiting their homes and funerals, etc. The point is we cannot be openly against what you believe as the majority, because that risks the bond between Muslims and sometimes it even risks our lives. Many of the early Shi'ah even had kept it a secret that they were Shi'i.

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234971164-taqiya-the-shia-concept/#comment-1986660

It took me five years to defeat illogical recitations inspired by Satan and come back to Islam. I know Satan can make the Quran's majesty disappear in the heart, so I'm not wondering about the issue of how Satan can keep people from seeing Auli-Mohammad in Quran, in Salah, in Sunnah

The Taqiyyah which your brother Qaim believes is the same tactic Iblis used to trick Adam (as).

And he swore unto them (saying): Lo! I am a sincere adviser unto you-  ( Quran Surah Al-A'raf 7:21)

[Rationalist]

But it's been my experience people who don't reflect don't even understand how Quran proves Tawheed or God.

That was the case with Hisham ibn Hakam. He believed God had a body, and in one ahadith Musa al Kazim (as) cursed him for it.

[Farid]

You don't believe our Imams said this, yet you argue by it. That's a logical fallacy.

That's not an honest discussion.

I am holding what is authentically accepted in your books and creed against you.

I do not have to believe in it, nor do you have to believe in what is in my books to hold it against me.

[Ibn Yahya]

The clear facts to me is by not getting obsessed over what Allah didn't say but on what he did he say. He paired up their obedience with the Messenger in one obey command, and the flow of the verses before clearly show whoever these people are they been given divine authority and their authority must be believed in like how the authority of the family of Abraham must be believed in.

But one reason is that it would imply that during the time of the Messenger for example, people would have to refer to Ali as well and Al-Hassan, and Al-Hussain. If people wanted to get technical, this is what would imply. But it commanding to obedience and it saying another place "and had they referred it to Rasool and Ulil-Amr from them", it implies that Rasool is sufficient for referral.

If it meant  Ulil-Amr were to be referred to during the time of the Nabi, it would imply these meant judges or something like that, that were entrusted to judge on behalf of Nabi.

However the context of the verses before and the not mentioning them for the referral, implies they will succeed the Messenger, and that referring to them would be referring to Allah and the Messenger. 

So I know it's hard to see it now because you are use to thinking "if it said this..I would surely think this and that", but the fact is if Allah mentioned the command people would argue like the argue for the verse "had they referred it to Messenger and Ulil-Amr from them", that people couldn't be commanded to refer the matter to the Imams during the time of the Nabi. However the line is "had they..." which implies hypothetical, which is different then a command.

But obeying them means when they command you obey them, so it didn't have to mean they were commanding at that time.

And if it said Ulil-Amr in referral, even if Ali Hassan and Hussain were all suppose to be referred to during the time of Nabi alongside him, the problem is that those who succeed him (the other 9 Imams) would not be included.

So you would use it ironically as a proof that it's not about Imams. This is just increases my faith in the wisdom of God and that he truly is the author. This is while if people a person or fabricator was writing this verse, he would do the mistake as you guys think, and say to refer to all three, which ironically show they are not successors, even if the author wanted to show they are successors.

This is a proof of a very wise Lord who thinks beyond the hasty recitation of people. He says what is accurate and what cannot be falsified.

did that clause really require a mini essay replying to it?

[Ibn Yahya]

I remember I use to have discussion with Qaim on shiachat about these verses when he was not a Shia. He eventually came to see Ahlulbayt in Quran.  We use to discuss about the issue of true authority all the time. I know people can eventually submit and accept the truth. Now I'm sure Qaim is much better lover of Ahlulbayt that I am and perceives their truth better then I do.

In English that is the phenomenon known as brainwashing. Do you think we care who you've misguided before? Do you want a medal or something?

Btw about most people not understanding Tawheed without reflecting on the Qur'an, who are you to say that? I've reflected on them loads, I just do it with a clean slate so I don't lean everything in some way towards Ahlulbayt. What you mean by that is that you want people to reflect on them in your way, not the rational clear and obvious way of Ahl as-Sunnah.

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

Isn't "Link" the same guy who became a Murtad, after doing mubahila with some members on Hcy forum? When did he repent later?

And didn't he say that he is undergoing treatment due to mental illness?

[Link]

You don't believe our Imams said this, yet you argue by it. That's a logical fallacy.

That's not an honest discussion.

I am holding what is authentically accepted in your books and creed against you.

I do not have to believe in it, nor do you have to believe in what is in my books to hold it against me.

It would prove that our means of authenticating ahadith through our opinions of who is trustworthy or not, is not accurate.

I already believe that anyways. So your not proving anything new. I know there are "authenticated" ahadith in both Sunni and Shia literature, that contradict the Quran.

So it's not proving anything I don't know.

Now you might get into a discussion if Ilmel Rijaal is not a certain means of authenticating ahadith, then, how do we know the true Sunnah?

And to be honest, I can get into a discussion about this, and about how believers in the past were required to act when they didn't know for certain what was truly attributed to God and his Messengers, what they were suppose to do in those times....

And that Ghayba is similar in many respects, but I doubt you want to hear it.

So let's stick to the topic at hand shall we?

[Farid]

It would prove that our means of authenticating ahadith through our opinions of who is trustworthy or not, is not accurate.

I already believe that anyways. So your not proving anything new. I know there are "authenticated" ahadith in both Sunni and Shia literature, that contradict the Quran.

So it's not proving anything I don't know.

Now you might get into a discussion if Ilmel Rijaal is not a certain means of authenticating ahadith, then, how do we know the true Sunnah?

Indeed, there is no doubt that you do not have a methodology to ascertain truth from falsehood, which is why I do hold the view that you are a follower of your own hawa.

More importantly, every single person in the chain that I have provided is a wajh min wujooh of Shiasm. These narrators are your top scholars according to the likes of Al Tusi and Al Najashi. If you want to believe that they fabricated this narration, then so be it.

Though, be aware that whoever this fabricator is, you can bet your last buck that he does not buy your weak interpretation, which is why he had to claim that the Qur'an was corrupted!

[Link]

So a fabricator that appeared sincere and truthful and top scholar to people had a problem with the verse as is.  So Tusi and Najashi didn't have absolute knowledge and were wrong about a person being truthful. I'm suppose to abandon what because of that?

Does it change what I've said regarding the verse because a fabricator couldn't realize it? Do the verses flowing and leading up to it all a sudden disappear that I ought to begin to doubt it refers to Ahlulbayt?

And the people according to Quran following their desires were always those who followed their fallible leaders and took religion and truth from them dogmatically.

It never shows submitting to the system of scholarship of fallible people is the way to avoid following howa. Rather quite the opposite, it showed people were given light from revelations, clear proofs of the path, and they had reason and light within themselves, to be guided.

But people gave up their Fitra all for verifying the religion passed on by fallible people. That is the trap of Satan. They abandoned the clear light and what was certain, for what was doubtful.

People awakening to the ways of Satan entrapping people to those people who love to lead and those who love to follow their leaders are always accused of being low and ignorant etc.

[Farid]

So a fabricator that appeared sincere and truthful and top scholar to people had a problem with the verse as is.  So Tusi and Najashi didn't have absolute knowledge and were wrong about a person being truthful. I'm suppose to abandon what because of that?

When they refer to a scholar as wajh min al-wujooh, then it means that this person was accepted by their community of peers. In this case, we are talking about the best of the best companions of the Imams.

To be honest, their opinions seem to have more weight than yours.

Do not forget that this narration was mentioned in Al Kafi and Tafseer Al Qummi, which suggests that they did not necessarily see this view as heretical.

[Abu Muhammad]

Bro Link, don't you realized that what you are doing all this while is EXACTLY what typical fallible scholars do? Interpreting and digging the meaning behind Quranic verses to understand their messages?

And how sure are you that your interpretation of those verses are the truth being you yourself are also fallible and, I believe, far more inferior than those scholars with regards to the knowledge and tools required to carry out the task of making tafseer?

[Hani]

I lose all passion to reply when the opponent replies with a long unconvincing answer.

BTW if we are to believe the Shia narrations of Tafsir are correctly attributed to the Imams, that would be explicit evidence of their ignorance about Allah's book. (I can provide many examples)

PS. Shia Imams taught no one is allowed to interpret Allah's book except them, the one who does so is a sinner even if his interpretation happened to be correct.

[Link]

To be honest, you guys are shifting the discussion from it's origin (about verses of Quran). You want to discuss different ahadith or what our scholars have authenticated and what they haven't instead.

I'll take it you guys don't have a real response. You guys want to cut off the verse 4:53 (mulk) from the next verse (4:54) and make it talking about two different mulks. Disconnect both from the next verse (4:55) and miss the emphasis that's it's emphasizing it's that very authority which is the foundation of Islam (ie. submitting to God's authority in his chosen ones and believing in it). You disconnect that then from the emphasis on God's Ayat, as if Ulil-Amr and the envied people have nothing to do with that. And you try to make it as if Ulil-Amr weren't envied along with the Messenger, despite the clear flow. And then you focus on "refer it to God and the Messenger" but when show there can be logical reasons why God said that that doesn't negate the absolute obedience to the Ulil-Amr and that it even would be problematic that "Ulil-Amr" would be mentioned in the referral, you resort to ahadith. You say why God didn't mention this and that, but when shown there is wisdom in emphasis these people envied who have be likened to the family of Abraham and their authority compared to each other and by contrast to Jewish and Christian scholars false claim of authority and ledaership, you say these are just excuses.

At the same time, you never say, why didn't God say "wa laken in" "but if" or say "then do not obey them" or something clear that would negate them having absolute authority, but you stick to an ambiguous reasoning and argument from ignorance.

Then you want to make a discussion about all sorts of different topics and go away from the original discussion.

You also purposely avoid the meaning of "chosen" with regards to the family of Abraham, because you have becoming allergic to the concept of chosen families in Quran knowing very well they would imply the true family of Mohammad is such a family as well.

You are being purposely obtuse. The clear flow is manifest and it's said in a warning tone, to not disbelieve in the authority of Ulil-Amr by flow.

But you show no fear to God and boldly make yourself obtuse to the clear subject at hand.

[Hani]

Dude who the heck is "likened to Abraham's family" The verses don't mention Aal-Muhammad in the first place let alone liken them to anyone. The verses are talking about prophets, not regular folks like Ali or his kids. Some Jews envied what Allah bestowed on Abraham's folks from prophecy n kingdom.