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`Umar the Khalifah says: `Ali is my Mawla

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Hani

`Umar the Khalifah says: `Ali is my Mawla
« on: November 15, 2014, 02:42:44 AM »
al-Salamu `Aleykum,


I'm sure you have all heard of this incident where `Umar during his Khilafah calls `Ali his Mawla, a version of it is found in Shia books, another is found in Sunni books but I was never able to find a chain for it. Recently, I was browsing through the book "al-Riyad al-Nadirah" and I found him quoting it without a chain, he attributed it to Ibn al-Samman in his popular book of virtues, sadly this book is lost.. another source was al-Daraqutni's book of virtues but unfortunately as well, most of this book is lost and the part that remains doesn't include it. Finally, I tried looking for this Hadith in the bigger encyclopedias, I found someone attributing it to Tarikh Dimashq, luckily I found it there with two chains.


أَخْبَرَنَا أَبُو بَكْرٍ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ الْبَاقِي، وَأَبُو الْمَوَاهِبِ أَحْمَدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ الْمَلِكِ، قَالا: أنا أَبُو مُحَمَّدٍ الْجَوْهَرِيُّ، أنا أَبُو الْحُسَيْنِ بْنُ الْمُظَفَّرِ، نا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ الْبَاغَنْدِيُّ، نا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ عُثْمَانَ بْنِ حَكِيمٍ الأَوْدِيُّ، نا شُرَيْحُ بْنُ مَسْلَمَةَ، نا إِبْرَاهِيمُ بْنُ يُوسُفَ، عَنْ عَبْدِ الْجَبَّارِ بْنِ الْعَبَّاسِ الشَّامِيِّ، عَنْ عَمَّارٍ الدُّهْنِيِّ، عَنْ أَبِي فَاخِتَةَ، قَالَ: أَقْبَلَ عَلِيٌّ وَعُمَرُ جالس في مجلسه، فلما رآه عمر تضعضع وتواضع وتوسع له في المجلس، فلما قام علي، قَالَ بَعْضُ الْقَوْمِ: يَا أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ: إِنَّكَ تَصْنَعُ بِعَلِيٍّ صَنِيعًا مَا تَصْنَعُهُ بِأَحَدٍ مِنْ أَصْحَابِ مُحَمَّدٍ، قَالَ عُمَرُ: وَمَا رَأَيْتَنِي أَصْنَعُ بِهِ؟ قَالَ: رَأَيْتُكَ كُلَّمَا رَأَيْتَهُ تَضَعْضَعْتَ وَتَوَاضَعْتَ وَأَوْسَعْتَ حَتَّى يَجْلِسَ، قَالَ: " وَمَا يَمْنَعُنِي، وَاللَّهِ إِنَّهُ لَمَوْلايَ وَمَوْلَى كُلِّ مُؤْمِنٍ




[We were told by Abu Bakr Muhammad bin `Abdul-Baqi and by abu al-Mawahib Ahmad bin `Abdul-Malik, they both said: Abu Muhammad al-Jawhari told us, abu al-Husayn al-Muzaffar told us, Muhammad bin Muhammad al-Baghandi told us, Ahmad bin `Uthman bin Hakeem al-Awdi told us, Shurayh bin Maslamah told us, Ibrahim bin Yusuf told us, from `Abdul-Jabbar bin al-`Abbas al-Shami, from `Ammar al-Duhani, from abu Fakhitah that he said: `Ali came to `Umar while he was sitting in his Majlis(place of gathering), so when `Umar saw him he became muddled and humble, then he moved to offer him comfortable sitting place. Later when `Ali left the gathering, some of the people asked: "O Ameer al-Mu'mineen, you treat `Ali unlike anyone from the companions of Muhammad (saw)?" `Umar said to the man: "How do you see my behavior towards him?" The man said: "I notice that whenever you see him you become muddled and you humble yourself to him and move to the side that he may sit comfortably." `Umar said: "And what's preventing me from doing so? By Allah, he is my Mawla and the Mawla of every believer."]


Source: Tarikh Dimashq 42/235.


The chain is as follows:


(1) Abu Bakr Muhammad bin `Abdul-Baqi al-Ansari: Thiqah, Thabt, Hujjah.

&

Abu al-Mawahib Ahmad bin Muhammad bin `Abdul-Malik al-Warraq al-Baghdadi: Thiqah, Salih.


(2) Abu Muhammad al-Hasan bin `Ali al-Jawhari al-Baghdadi: Thiqah, Muhaddith.


(3) Abu al-Husayn Muhammad bin al-Muzaffar al-Baghdadi: Thiqah, Shi`ee.


(4) Abu Bakr Muhammad bin Muhammad al-Baghandi: Thiqah, Mudallis (declared hearing).


(5) Abu `Abdullah Ahmad bin `Uthman al-Kufi: Thiqah, Hujjah.


(6) Shurayh bin Maslamah al-Kufi: Thiqah.


(7) Ibrahim bin Yusuf bin Ishaq al-Subay`ee: Saduq.


(8 )`Abdul-Jabbar bin al-`Abbas al-Kufi: Saduq, Shi`ee.


(9) `Ammar ibn abi Mu`awiyah al-Duhani al-Kufi: Thiqah, Shi`ee.


(10) Abu Fakhitah Sa`eed bin `Alaqah al-Kufi al-Hashimi: Thiqah, Shi`ee, Mawla Umm Hani' bint abi Talib.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I have to admit that this is one of those clear narrations which shows how the early generations understood the meaning of Muwalat in the Hadith of Ghadeer, not as leadership but as love and closeness.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 02:02:53 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ebn Hussein

Re: `Umar the Khalifah says: `Ali is my Mawla
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2014, 03:40:27 AM »
I never understood why some try to weaken the narration about Omar congratulating Ali at Ghadir (in Sunni books), it is to our advantage and here is why (can you make a post about that Hani):

Ali congratulated Omar proves:

1. Omar was not jealous of Ali
2. Omar was not an evil oppressor and dictator, for even the biggest Munafiq is not forced to go to his supposed enemy and threat to his throne (i.e. Ali) to congratulate him

Most importantly, Omar congratulating Ali means that Omar (just like the rest of the Ummah) never ever understood the incident of Ghadir in the way the Twelvers do and here is supportive evidence:

Imam Ibn Hajar Al-Makki in his al-Sawaiq al-Muhriqah (a classical book written in refutation of the Rafidi Shia religion) 1/110 states about Omar:

الدارقطني و أخرج أيضا أنه قيل لعمر إنك تصنع بعلي شيئا لا تصنعه بأحد من أصحاب النبي فقال إنه مولاي

"Daraqutni has narrated that someone said to Omar: “Why do you treat Ali differently from the other Sahabah of the Prophet?”. He said:  ‘Because Ali is my mawla."

We find in these reports that Omar Ibn Al-Khattab (رضي الله عنه) even during his own caliphate called Ali (رضوان الله عليه) his mawla. Obviously Omar (عليه الرحمة) certainly didn’t mean to say that Ali (رحمة الله عليه) was his ruler/Caliph while being a caliph himself! That doesn’t make sense whatsoever (especially not for an 'evil tyrant' who has just recently 'snatched way’'the caliphate of Ali), it is sheer stupidity to even suggest that Omar meant mawla as in ‘Caliph/leader’ (i.e. the Shia understanding) since Omar Al-Faruq (رضوان الله عليه) said that WHILE he himself was the Chief of the Believers, all believers, including of Ali (رضي الله عنه).

A similar narration about Omar’s love and understanding (and usage) of the wording mawla (which is the same as Ali’s understanding) can be even found in Shia books:

عن سالم قال: قيل (للخليفة) عمر: نراك تصنع بعلي شيئاً لا تصنعه بأحد من أصحاب رسول الله؟ فقال: إنه مولاي.وعن الباقر قال: جاء أعرابيان إلى (الخليفة) عمر يختصمان، فقال عمر: يا أبا الحسن، اقض بينهما. فقضى على أحدهما، فقال المقضي عليه: يا أمير المؤمنين، هذا يقضي بيننا؟ فوثب إليه عمر فأخذ بتلبيبه ولبّبه، ثم قال: ويحك ما تدري من هذا؟! هذا مولاي ومولى كل مؤمن، ومن لم يكن مولاه فليس بمؤمنالمصدر:البحار: ص 124 ج 40

Narrated Salem: ‘They said to caliph Omar: “We see you treating Ali like you treat no other of the Companions of the Prophet? He said: “He is my mawla. Imam al-Baqir said: “Once two wondering Arabs came to the caliph Omar so that he may Judge between them, So Omar said to Ali: “O Abu Al-Hassan why don’t you Judge between them two?.” So he made his ruling on one of the two, Then that wondering Arab said: “O Chief of the Believers (Omar)! Do you let this (man, Ali) judge between us!?” So Omar quickly stood up and shouted at the Man: “How dare you! Do you not know who this is?” He is my mawla and the mawla of every believer and if he’s not your mawla then you’re not a believer.

[Shia Source: bihar al Anwar 40/124.]

Now only a mad man would believe and argue that Omar (who was THE Caliph back then) was shouting at someone who disrespected Ali and telling  him that Ali is in fact the RULER(Shia understanding of mawla = Caliph) of Omar and all the believers.
الإمام الشافعي رحمه الله
لم أر أحداً من أهل الأهواء أشهد بالزور من الرافضة! - الخطيب في الكفاية والسوطي.

Imam Al-Shafi3i - may Allah have mercy upon him - said: "I have not seen among the heretics a people more famous for falsehood than the Rafidah." [narrated by Al-Khatib Al-Baghdadi/Al-Kifayah]

Hani

Re: `Umar the Khalifah says: `Ali is my Mawla
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2014, 03:49:50 AM »
If you mean the Hadith of Ghadeer where `Umar congratulates `Ali, then yes that part of the Hadith does show a good relation between the two, it's not a matter of them trying to weaken it, the fact is it's weak so nothing can be done about that.


You can still use this part against them whenever they use it against you.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ebn Hussein

Re: `Umar the Khalifah says: `Ali is my Mawla
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2014, 04:24:18 AM »
Yes bro, I know it's weak, what I meant is that brothers shoudn't be hasten weaken narrations, in my experience the absolute majority of stuff Shias use against us thinking it is in their favour is in fact AGAINST them (like: “If it wasn't for Ali, Omar would have perished.” etc.)
الإمام الشافعي رحمه الله
لم أر أحداً من أهل الأهواء أشهد بالزور من الرافضة! - الخطيب في الكفاية والسوطي.

Imam Al-Shafi3i - may Allah have mercy upon him - said: "I have not seen among the heretics a people more famous for falsehood than the Rafidah." [narrated by Al-Khatib Al-Baghdadi/Al-Kifayah]

sword_of_sunnah

Re: `Umar the Khalifah says: `Ali is my Mawla
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2014, 08:57:27 AM »
al-Salamu `Aleykum,


I'm sure you have all heard of this incident where `Umar during his Khilafah calls `Ali his Mawla, a version of it is found in Shia books, another is found in Sunni books but I was never able to find a chain for it. Recently, I was browsing through the book "al-Riyad al-Nadirah" and I found him quoting it without a chain, he attributed it to Ibn al-Samman in his popular book of virtues, sadly this book is lost.. another source was al-Daraqutni's book of virtues but unfortunately as well, most of this book is lost and the part that remains doesn't include it. Finally, I tried looking for this Hadith in the bigger encyclopedias, I found someone attributing it to Tarikh Dimashq, luckily I found it there with two chains.


أَخْبَرَنَا أَبُو بَكْرٍ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ الْبَاقِي، وَأَبُو الْمَوَاهِبِ أَحْمَدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ الْمَلِكِ، قَالا: أنا أَبُو مُحَمَّدٍ الْجَوْهَرِيُّ، أنا أَبُو الْحُسَيْنِ بْنُ الْمُظَفَّرِ، نا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ الْبَاغَنْدِيُّ، نا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ عُثْمَانَ بْنِ حَكِيمٍ الأَوْدِيُّ، نا شُرَيْحُ بْنُ مَسْلَمَةَ، نا إِبْرَاهِيمُ بْنُ يُوسُفَ، عَنْ عَبْدِ الْجَبَّارِ بْنِ الْعَبَّاسِ الشَّامِيِّ، عَنْ عَمَّارٍ الدُّهْنِيِّ، عَنْ أَبِي فَاخِتَةَ، قَالَ: أَقْبَلَ عَلِيٌّ وَعُمَرُ جالس في مجلسه، فلما رآه عمر تضعضع وتواضع وتوسع له في المجلس، فلما قام علي، قَالَ بَعْضُ الْقَوْمِ: يَا أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ: إِنَّكَ تَصْنَعُ بِعَلِيٍّ صَنِيعًا مَا تَصْنَعُهُ بِأَحَدٍ مِنْ أَصْحَابِ مُحَمَّدٍ، قَالَ عُمَرُ: وَمَا رَأَيْتَنِي أَصْنَعُ بِهِ؟ قَالَ: رَأَيْتُكَ كُلَّمَا رَأَيْتَهُ تَضَعْضَعْتَ وَتَوَاضَعْتَ وَأَوْسَعْتَ حَتَّى يَجْلِسَ، قَالَ: " وَمَا يَمْنَعُنِي، وَاللَّهِ إِنَّهُ لَمَوْلايَ وَمَوْلَى كُلِّ مُؤْمِنٍ




[We were told by Abu Bakr Muhammad bin `Abdul-Baqi and by abu al-Mawahib Ahmad bin `Abdul-Malik, they both said: Abu Muhammad al-Jawhari told us, abu al-Husayn al-Muzaffar told us, Muhammad bin Muhammad al-Baghandi told us, Ahmad bin `Uthman bin Hakeem al-Awdi told us, Shurayh bin Maslamah told us, Ibrahim bin Yusuf told us, from `Abdul-Jabbar bin al-`Abbas al-Shami, from `Ammar al-Duhani, from abu Fakhitah that he said: `Ali came to `Umar while he was sitting in his Majlis(place of gathering), so when `Umar saw him he became muddled and humble, then he moved to offer him comfortable sitting place. Later when `Ali left the gathering, some of the people asked: "O Ameer al-Mu'mineen, you treat `Ali unlike anyone from the companions of Muhammad (saw)?" `Umar said to the man: "How do you see my behavior towards him?" The man said: "I notice that whenever you see him you become muddled and you humble yourself to him and move to the side that he may sit comfortably." `Umar said: "And what's preventing me from doing so? By Allah, he is my Mawla and the Mawla of every believer."]


Source: Tarikh Dimashq 42/235.


The chain is as follows:


(1) Abu Bakr Muhammad bin `Abdul-Baqi al-Ansari: Thiqah, Thabt, Hujjah.


(2) Abu Muhammad al-Hasan bin `Ali al-Jawhari al-Baghdadi: Thiqah, Muhaddith.


(3) Abu al-Husayn Muhammad bin al-Muzaffar al-Baghdadi: Thiqah, Shi`ee.


(4) Abu Bakr Muhammad bin Muhammad al-Baghandi: Thiqah, Mudallis (declared hearing).


(5) Abu `Abdullah Ahmad bin `Uthman al-Kufi: Thiqah, Hujjah.


(6) Shurayh bin Maslamah al-Kufi: Thiqah.


(7) Ibrahim bin Yusuf bin Ishaq al-Subay`ee: Saduq.


(8 )`Abdul-Jabbar bin al-`Abbas al-Kufi: Saduq, Shi`ee.


(9) `Ammar ibn abi Mu`awiyah al-Duhani al-Kufi: Thiqah, Shi`ee.


(10) Abu Fakhitah Sa`eed bin `Alaqah al-Kufi al-Hashimi: Thiqah, Shi`ee, Mawla Umm Hani' bint abi Talib.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I have to admit that this is one of those clear narrations which shows how the early generations understood the meaning of Muwalat in the Hadith of Ghadeer, not as leadership but as love and closeness.

Indeed You found a jewel akhee.

Hani

Re: `Umar the Khalifah says: `Ali is my Mawla
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2014, 05:27:05 PM »
Other things to look out for in Hadith-ul-Ghadeer, that if the term "Mawla" was to mean authority and leadership, then there would be two great issues:


A- The Imamah would be established for two individuals at once, which is a matter Imami Shia do not accept. The Imamah of `Ali would be established alongside the Imamah of the Prophet (saw), this is something all Muslims reject by consensus.


B- The following words "Allahuma Waalee man Waalaah" These would have a Kufri heretical meaning, since Allah is never a Muwaalee for whoever Yuwaalee `Aliyun.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 08:25:17 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: `Umar the Khalifah says: `Ali is my Mawla
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2015, 02:40:55 AM »
This narration is authentic up until abu Bistam the servant of Usamah ibn Zayd. He himself is Majhoul but this narration is an important evidence for the context of the text and how the early generation understood it.

Al-Shari`ah lil-Ajurry:
وحدثنا أبو بكر بن أبي داود قال : حدثنا المسيب بن واضح قال : حدثنا مروان بن معاوية الفزاري ، عن مرزوق ، عن أبي بسطام مولى أسامة قال : كان بين أسامة وبين علي رضي الله عنه منازعة ، فقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم : « يا علي ، والله إني لأحبه » يعني أسامة فكأن عليا رضي الله عنه وجد في نفسه ، فقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم : « يا أسامة ، من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه »

[From abi Bistam the servant of Usamah, he said: There was a quarrel between Usamah and `Ali. So Rasul-Allah (saw) said to `Ali: "O `Ali, by Allah I love him (meaning Usamah)." Then it is as if `Ali felt sadness from this, so Rasul-Allah (saw) said to Usamah: "O Usamah, whomever I am his close friend `Ali is also his close friend."]

As the reader can see, the Prophet (saw) can't possibly be appointing `Ali here as a leader.

Other sources for this rare text.

Sharh al-Usoul lil-Lalika'ee:
أنا محمد بن عبد الرحمن ، قال : أنا الحسين بن إسماعيل ، قال : نا محمد بن خلف ، قال : نا زكريا بن عدي ، قال : نا مروان بن معاوية ، قال : نا هلال بن ميمون الرملي ، قال : قلت لأبي بسطام مولى أسامة بن زيد : أرأيت قول الناس : إن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال : « من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه » ؟ قال : نعم ، وقع بين أسامة وبين علي تنازع ، قال : فأتيت النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم . قال : فذكرت ذلك له ، فقال : « يا علي ، يقول هذا لأسامة ، فوالله إني لأحبه » . وقال لأسامة : « يا أسامة ، يقول هذا لعلي ، فمن كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه »

Tareekh Dimashq:
أخبرنا أبو محمد بن طاوس أنا أبو منصور بن شكروية أنا أبو إسحاق بن خرشيد قوله نا الحسين بن إسماعيل المحاملي إملاء نا يعقوب نا مروان الفزاري عن مسروق بن ماهان التيمي قال قلت لأبي بسطام مولى أسامة بن زيد إن ناسا يقولون وال من والاه وعاد من عاداه فقال أبو بسطام ذلك بأنه كان بين علي وبين أسامة فقال والله إني لأحبه قال فكأنه دخل على علي من ذاك فقال رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وسلم ) ألا أراك تتناول عندي عليا من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

whoaretheshia

Re: `Umar the Khalifah says: `Ali is my Mawla
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2017, 10:29:53 AM »
SubhanAllah, there are about 10 individuals in that chain, including half a dozen Shia. Do you not think, for a moment dear brother, that this could quite easily have been words put in by a Shia, to seemingly attempt to defend their own belief?  I would like to know where you got these gradings from - or if they are your own summary. I was under the impression that if a Shia quotes something that seems to proselytise something with regards to their own faith, even a reliable Shia's words are not taken. I would genuinely cast doubt on a chain that is this long, with so many Shia's, and in addition to this, bearing the word 'Ali is the Mawla of every believer" said by none other than Umar ibn Al Khattab. There is a chance a Shia added this into the narration to make it seem as though Umar conceded the superiority of Ali ibn Abi Talib, not knowing that the addition could also be taken in different manner. For you to take this as the best evidence for how Mawla was understood within the context of Ghadeer does not do you credit dear brother, with respect to what you deem as good evidence.

 We know the words 'Ali is the Mawla of every believer after me' is often attributed to the Prophet [saw] and people have often accused the narrators in it of spreading their own Shia ideology and fabricating those statements.

Interestingly, we find Ali ibn Abi Talib forget that time where he was placed in front of at least tens of thousands, have his hand held up [and i deem this part authentic, even if you dispute it] , and have the Prophet [saw] clearly state, whomsoever he is a Mawla, Ali is his Mawla. However, you think really think that's something a man could forget , would you?

Rabah bin al-Harith said: ‘A group of men passed by Ali in Rahba and they said: ‘Peace be upon you our master (Maula). ‘He (Ali) said: how can I be your master (Maula) and you are Arab?’ They replied: ‘We heard Allah’s Apostle (pbuh) state on the day of Ghadir: ‘Of whomsoever I am his master (Maula) then this (Ali) is his master (Maula)’. Rabah said: ‘When they left, I followed them and asked (people): ‘Who are they?’ They answered: ‘They are group from Ansar and Abu Ayub al-Ansari is among them”.
Reference:[Musnad Ahmad, Volume 38 page 541:] Shu’aib al-Arnaoot said: ‘The chain is Sahih’


There are two revealing things about this tradition. On one hand, Ali ibn Abi Talib seems to translate it to mean master. Thus, he asks - how can he be their master when they are Arabs [as in free men] It's extremely odd Ali ibn Abi Talib didn't remember what happened at Ghadeer, nor was able to comprehend that it was obvious they were not his slaves, and for anyone with moderate intelligence it would have been clear.

However, Ali ibn Abi Talib here uses an intelligent technique in rhetoric. He knows full well what occurred in Ghadir, and if he felt Mawla in that context meant 'Friend' or 'Beloved', he would not have interpreted it as meaning having authority over them, or being their master. Rather he knows the true expression meant 'Master, and hence asks them how can he be their master, when they are obviously not his slaves and are free people - to test them.

They reply that it is due to what they heard the Messenger of Allah [saw] declare at Ghadeer. In a sense, affirming that he indeed is their Master, and the way he is able to be that without them being slaves [obviously] is that he received this affirmation and title bestowed on him explicitly by the Messenger of Allah [saw] at Ghadeer.

A popular view among Shia scholars is that many of the Ansaar would have supported Ali ibn abi Talib, and both Jabir, and Abu Ayyub were actually righteous men. I am not going to elucidate on that now, as that is for another discussion. I would rather only present clear and authenticated traditions, rather than giving you the exercise of weakening and abandoning, dear brother.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 10:33:05 AM by whoaretheshia »
"I leave behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray...the Quran and my Ahlulbayt" - Musnad Ibn Rawayh (al-Albani classes Isnaad *independently* as Hasan, and Matn as authentic, as does Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar and others.

whoaretheshia

Re: `Umar the Khalifah says: `Ali is my Mawla
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2017, 10:52:21 AM »
Apologies for any typing error, i am not aware how i can edit my posts and it is early in the morning.
"I leave behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray...the Quran and my Ahlulbayt" - Musnad Ibn Rawayh (al-Albani classes Isnaad *independently* as Hasan, and Matn as authentic, as does Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar and others.

Optimus Prime

Re: `Umar the Khalifah says: `Ali is my Mawla
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2017, 02:19:08 PM »
SubhanAllah, there are about 10 individuals in that chain, including half a dozen Shia. Do you not think, for a moment dear brother, that this could quite easily have been words put in by a Shia, to seemingly attempt to defend their own belief?  I would like to know where you got these gradings from - or if they are your own summary. I was under the impression that if a Shia quotes something that seems to proselytise something with regards to their own faith, even a reliable Shia's words are not taken. I would genuinely cast doubt on a chain that is this long, with so many Shia's, and in addition to this, bearing the word 'Ali is the Mawla of every believer" said by none other than Umar ibn Al Khattab. There is a chance a Shia added this into the narration to make it seem as though Umar conceded the superiority of Ali ibn Abi Talib, not knowing that the addition could also be taken in different manner. For you to take this as the best evidence for how Mawla was understood within the context of Ghadeer does not do you credit dear brother, with respect to what you deem as good evidence.

 We know the words 'Ali is the Mawla of every believer after me' is often attributed to the Prophet [saw] and people have often accused the narrators in it of spreading their own Shia ideology and fabricating those statements.

Interestingly, we find Ali ibn Abi Talib forget that time where he was placed in front of at least tens of thousands, have his hand held up [and i deem this part authentic, even if you dispute it] , and have the Prophet [saw] clearly state, whomsoever he is a Mawla, Ali is his Mawla. However, you think really think that's something a man could forget , would you?

Rabah bin al-Harith said: ‘A group of men passed by Ali in Rahba and they said: ‘Peace be upon you our master (Maula). ‘He (Ali) said: how can I be your master (Maula) and you are Arab?’ They replied: ‘We heard Allah’s Apostle (pbuh) state on the day of Ghadir: ‘Of whomsoever I am his master (Maula) then this (Ali) is his master (Maula)’. Rabah said: ‘When they left, I followed them and asked (people): ‘Who are they?’ They answered: ‘They are group from Ansar and Abu Ayub al-Ansari is among them”.
Reference:[Musnad Ahmad, Volume 38 page 541:] Shu’aib al-Arnaoot said: ‘The chain is Sahih’


There are two revealing things about this tradition. On one hand, Ali ibn Abi Talib seems to translate it to mean master. Thus, he asks - how can he be their master when they are Arabs [as in free men] It's extremely odd Ali ibn Abi Talib didn't remember what happened at Ghadeer, nor was able to comprehend that it was obvious they were not his slaves, and for anyone with moderate intelligence it would have been clear.

However, Ali ibn Abi Talib here uses an intelligent technique in rhetoric. He knows full well what occurred in Ghadir, and if he felt Mawla in that context meant 'Friend' or 'Beloved', he would not have interpreted it as meaning having authority over them, or being their master. Rather he knows the true expression meant 'Master, and hence asks them how can he be their master, when they are obviously not his slaves and are free people - to test them.

They reply that it is due to what they heard the Messenger of Allah [saw] declare at Ghadeer. In a sense, affirming that he indeed is their Master, and the way he is able to be that without them being slaves [obviously] is that he received this affirmation and title bestowed on him explicitly by the Messenger of Allah [saw] at Ghadeer.

A popular view among Shia scholars is that many of the Ansaar would have supported Ali ibn abi Talib, and both Jabir, and Abu Ayyub were actually righteous men. I am not going to elucidate on that now, as that is for another discussion. I would rather only present clear and authenticated traditions, rather than giving you the exercise of weakening and abandoning, dear brother.


This bit had me in stitches.

whoaretheshia

Re: `Umar the Khalifah says: `Ali is my Mawla
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2017, 02:48:01 PM »

This bit had me in stitches.

Even though i am a Shia, i don't have a problem in conceding liars existed among both the Sunni and Shia traditions. A tradition whereby Umar ibn al Khattab states Ali is the Mawla of every believer, in a chain that is as lengthy as ten narrators [linearly] with around half a dozen Shia narrators in it, does place into doubt whether this was merely a false attribution to the second Caliph, by a Shia who felt it could help justify his or her belief and disparage the second Caliph and thus make it seems as though he is conceding the superiority of Ali ibn Abi Talib. Of course, what he did not realise is that a Millennia later, someone may take his words as proof of a particular understanding that supports their own distinct creed.

Suffice to say i don't think a Sunni brother taking a chain which is almost a dozen narrators long, containing half a dozen Shia narrators, with a comment which could quite easily have been fabricated by a Shia about the words of Umar about Ali, should be regarded as Hani seems to think, as the best evidence he regards for how the early muslims understood the context of Mawla with respect to Ali ibn Abi Talib.
"I leave behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray...the Quran and my Ahlulbayt" - Musnad Ibn Rawayh (al-Albani classes Isnaad *independently* as Hasan, and Matn as authentic, as does Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar and others.

Hadrami

Re: `Umar the Khalifah says: `Ali is my Mawla
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2017, 12:08:07 AM »
Suffice to say i don't think a Sunni brother taking a chain which is almost a dozen narrators long, containing half a dozen Shia narrators, with a comment which could quite easily have been fabricated by a Shia about the words of Umar about Ali, should be regarded as Hani seems to think, as the best evidence he regards for how the early muslims understood the context of Mawla with respect to Ali ibn Abi Talib.
You do realise when early scholars mention someone was shia it doesnt mean he was a 7er, 12er etc right? Those shia could even be people who was only political shia & didnt believe in divine imamah. Their understanding could be even closer to us than you.

whoaretheshia

Re: `Umar the Khalifah says: `Ali is my Mawla
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2017, 02:58:38 AM »
You do realise when early scholars mention someone was shia it doesnt mean he was a 7er, 12er etc right? Those shia could even be people who was only political shia & didnt believe in divine imamah. Their understanding could be even closer to us than you.

Asalamu Alaikum,

I understand this is the case quite well. It would apply to those who were termed 'Shia' in K'ufa. Not all 'Shia' were religiously orientated to the Ahlulbayt and the Banu Hashim, as some were simply fed up of the Ummayad regime. However, you could get away with this if you have one or two in the chain, but having half a dozen make it very likely some at least may indeed have had beliefs which conformed to those who believe Ali ibn Abi Talib was the rightful leader. When examining this text, having half a dozen Shia in the chain with Umar ibn al-Khatab being made to call Ali the 'Mawla' of every believer is suspect, to say the least.

It could quite easily be seen as a Shia attempting to proselytise and promote their own belief. I find it highly questionable for anyone to rely on this as the best evidence as to how Mawla was understood in those days.
"I leave behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray...the Quran and my Ahlulbayt" - Musnad Ibn Rawayh (al-Albani classes Isnaad *independently* as Hasan, and Matn as authentic, as does Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar and others.

Hadrami

Re: `Umar the Khalifah says: `Ali is my Mawla
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2017, 07:28:17 AM »
When examining this text, having half a dozen Shia in the chain with Umar ibn al-Khatab being made to call Ali the 'Mawla' of every believer is suspect, to say the least.

It could quite easily be seen as a Shia attempting to proselytise and promote their own belief.
But if you believe this narration may have false attribution to Umar RA and was made up by shia to promote their imamah belief, that theory works against you, because it confirm what sunni scholars have been saying that shia made up lots of stuff and attribute it to anyone to promote shiism.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 07:30:33 AM by Hadrami »

Hadrami

Re: `Umar the Khalifah says: `Ali is my Mawla
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2017, 07:34:09 AM »
may i add that its easier for sunni scholars to expose someone as liars than shia, since if imam said someone was a liar but also said he was truthful, it is difficult to say which is correct because you believe in taqiyya

iceman

Re: `Umar the Khalifah says: `Ali is my Mawla
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2017, 07:10:57 PM »
The actual meaning of 'Mawla' and the public gathering/assembly and the planned and organised event of 'Ghadeer' is crystal clear. The purpose of Ghadeer and the meaning of Mawla has been undermined and under valued. Ghadeer was no unfortunate incident like Saqifa and the meaning of Mawla is not immature as the decision in Saqifa.

But people will continue to Mitigate the meaning of Mawla and the purpose of Ghadeer to give some kind of value and purpose to Saqifa. This is what it's exactly all about. The Prophet (s) didn't plan and organise such a mass gathering and a huge event as Ghadeer just for the reason to clear any misunderstanding about Ali or out of love and effection.

Optimus Prime

Re: `Umar the Khalifah says: `Ali is my Mawla
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2017, 07:55:58 PM »
The actual meaning of 'Mawla' and the public gathering/assembly and the planned and organised event of 'Ghadeer' is crystal clear. The purpose of Ghadeer and the meaning of Mawla has been undermined and under valued. Ghadeer was no unfortunate incident like Saqifa and the meaning of Mawla is not immature as the decision in Saqifa.

But people will continue to Mitigate the meaning of Mawla and the purpose of Ghadeer to give some kind of value and purpose to Saqifa. This is what it's exactly all about. The Prophet (s) didn't plan and organise such a mass gathering and a huge event as Ghadeer just for the reason to clear any misunderstanding about Ali or out of love and effection.

Mass gathering? LOL! Yeah right. Mass gathering was at Arafat, when the Prophet (SAW) reminded the people of the fundamentals of the Deen. Most of the Ummah were present, and was the perfect setting to nominate his successor!

Keep deluding yourself ice-dude!

iceman

Re: `Umar the Khalifah says: `Ali is my Mawla
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2017, 10:13:51 PM »
The actual meaning of 'Mawla' and the public gathering/assembly and the planned and organised event of 'Ghadeer' is crystal clear. The purpose of Ghadeer and the meaning of Mawla has been undermined and under valued. Ghadeer was no unfortunate incident like Saqifa and the meaning of Mawla is not immature as the decision in Saqifa.

But people will continue to Mitigate the meaning of Mawla and the purpose of Ghadeer to give some kind of value and purpose to Saqifa. This is what it's exactly all about. The Prophet (s) didn't plan and organise such a mass gathering and a huge event as Ghadeer just for the reason to clear any misunderstanding about Ali or out of love and effection.

Mass gathering? LOL! Yeah right. Mass gathering was at Arafat, when the Prophet (SAW) reminded the people of the fundamentals of the Deen. Most of the Ummah were present, and was the perfect setting to nominate his successor!

Keep deluding yourself ice-dude!

I'm sure you can give me a better response then that. Why are you always looking at perfect settings, why does Allah and his Messenger need perfect settings or standards according to your desire? But there is a very important point you've touched on here, the point you've made about mass gathering and Arafat and you call it a perfect setting to nominate a successor, my question to you is, well what about Saqifa? Where exactly was the PERFECT SETTING AND STANDARD there? You don't need mass gathering or a perfect setting when it comes to Saqifa [choosing a successor to Muhammad and a leader for the Ummah].

You don't question about mass gathering and perfect setting and standard when it comes to Saqifa. Here it is all about protecting and defending. But when it comes to Ghadeer, suspicion is raised and you cast doubt by various questions. When it comes to the Shaykhain or where they are invoved, that's fine. But when it comes to the Messenger , we suddenly have ifs and buts. What exactly was the gathering at Ghadeer? Why and how was this event staged? Give me this rather than "keep deluding yourself ice dude". You sound like a teenager or childish. I'm sure you can do better.

Saqifa was an incident and Ghadeer was an event. What exactly was the gathering/assembly in Saqifa compared to Ghadeer? Lets see the % and the difference. We believe that a leader for the Ummah and a successor to the Prophet was chosen at the event of Ghadeer and by the Prophet himself. You believe that a leader for the Ummah and a successor to the Prophet was choosen at the incident of Saqifa. Compare the facts on them.

Optimus Prime

Re: `Umar the Khalifah says: `Ali is my Mawla
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2017, 10:57:50 PM »
The actual meaning of 'Mawla' and the public gathering/assembly and the planned and organised event of 'Ghadeer' is crystal clear. The purpose of Ghadeer and the meaning of Mawla has been undermined and under valued. Ghadeer was no unfortunate incident like Saqifa and the meaning of Mawla is not immature as the decision in Saqifa.

But people will continue to Mitigate the meaning of Mawla and the purpose of Ghadeer to give some kind of value and purpose to Saqifa. This is what it's exactly all about. The Prophet (s) didn't plan and organise such a mass gathering and a huge event as Ghadeer just for the reason to clear any misunderstanding about Ali or out of love and effection.

Mass gathering? LOL! Yeah right. Mass gathering was at Arafat, when the Prophet (SAW) reminded the people of the fundamentals of the Deen. Most of the Ummah were present, and was the perfect setting to nominate his successor!

Keep deluding yourself ice-dude!

I'm sure you can give me a better response then that. Why are you always looking at perfect settings, why does Allah and his Messenger need perfect settings or standards according to your desire? But there is a very important point you've touched on here, the point you've made about mass gathering and Arafat and you call it a perfect setting to nominate a successor, my question to you is, well what about Saqifa? Where exactly was the PERFECT SETTING AND STANDARD there? You don't need mass gathering or a perfect setting when it comes to Saqifa [choosing a successor to Muhammad and a leader for the Ummah].

You don't question about mass gathering and perfect setting and standard when it comes to Saqifa. Here it is all about protecting and defending. But when it comes to Ghadeer, suspicion is raised and you cast doubt by various questions. When it comes to the Shaykhain or where they are invoved, that's fine. But when it comes to the Messenger , we suddenly have ifs and buts. What exactly was the gathering at Ghadeer? Why and how was this event staged? Give me this rather than "keep deluding yourself ice dude". You sound like a teenager or childish. I'm sure you can do better.

Saqifa was an incident and Ghadeer was an event. What exactly was the gathering/assembly in Saqifa compared to Ghadeer? Lets see the % and the difference. We believe that a leader for the Ummah and a successor to the Prophet was chosen at the event of Ghadeer and by the Prophet himself. You believe that a leader for the Ummah and a successor to the Prophet was choosen at the incident of Saqifa. Compare the facts on them.

Perfect setting because everyone was doing Haj, and were in Ihram, and were on sacred soil, and the entire Ummah was there. So unquestionably it was the perfect setting yet the Prophet (SAW) was silent on his successor - go figure! Try to apply your mind for a change, and you must just comprende!

Comparing the incident Ghadir and Saqifah is retarded, and nonsensical. Saqifah was spur of the moment, where as Ghadir was planned by the Prophet (SAW). No one is denying that Ghadhir was an event, but your understanding of the event is upside down.

If thousands of people were gathered there, that means those Muslims not from Madinah & Makkah had to venture south from Makkah to a small pond to listen to the Prophet (SAW) make an announcement, and then do a u-turn all the way back from which they came, and then make their way back home. Basically doing extra mileage to hear an announcement, that could have been made in one of grandest of all places on Earth. The fact you consider the Prophet (SAW) would people through such hardship is an insult to the Prophet (SAW) himself. This shaitaani rationalising is Islamically unacceptable, and can only come from a Shia.
 
You believe whatever you want. Here are the facts:

- 'Ali was never appointed.
- 'Ali wasn't deserving to be appointed, as his superiors were alive.
- 'Ali was not worthy, or qualified to be appointed, as his superiors were still alive.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 11:00:56 PM by Optimus Prime »

whoaretheshia

Re: `Umar the Khalifah says: `Ali is my Mawla
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2017, 11:35:08 PM »
The actual meaning of 'Mawla' and the public gathering/assembly and the planned and organised event of 'Ghadeer' is crystal clear. The purpose of Ghadeer and the meaning of Mawla has been undermined and under valued. Ghadeer was no unfortunate incident like Saqifa and the meaning of Mawla is not immature as the decision in Saqifa.

But people will continue to Mitigate the meaning of Mawla and the purpose of Ghadeer to give some kind of value and purpose to Saqifa. This is what it's exactly all about. The Prophet (s) didn't plan and organise such a mass gathering and a huge event as Ghadeer just for the reason to clear any misunderstanding about Ali or out of love and effection.

Mass gathering? LOL! Yeah right. Mass gathering was at Arafat, when the Prophet (SAW) reminded the people of the fundamentals of the Deen. Most of the Ummah were present, and was the perfect setting to nominate his successor!

Keep deluding yourself ice-dude!

We have addressed this pretty robustly in the following articles:

A. Did the Prophet ﷺ not deliver his message to the majority of muslims? :

B. What was the rank and role of these later converts to Islam [From Mecca , T’aif, Yemen, Oman, and other regions] in preserving the Sunnah?

C. Should the Prophet ﷺ have given the declaration in Makkah?:

We will quote for you part C

We arguably now come on to the most compelling evidence which every objective reader should ponder over when considering why the Prophet ﷺ may have felt hesitant to make the declaration in Mecca. On this occasion, we have no choice but to agree with the reasoning of Abdur-Rahman ibn Awf, and Umar ibn al-Khattab as narrated in Saheeh-al-Bukahri [1].

Quote
“I used to teach (the Qur’an to) some people of the Muhajirln (emigrants), among whom there was `Abdur Rahman bin `Auf. While I was in his house at Mina, and he was with `Umar bin Al-Khattab during `Umar’s last Hajj, `Abdur-Rahman came to me and said, “Would that you had seen the man who came today to the Chief of the Believers (`Umar), saying, ‘O Chief of the Believers! What do you think about so-and-so who says, ‘If `Umar should die, I will give the pledge of allegiance to such-and such person, as by Allah, the pledge of allegiance to Abu Bakr was nothing but a prompt sudden action which got established afterwards.’ `Umar became angry and then said, ‘Allah willing, I will stand before the people tonight and warn them against those people who want to deprive the others of their rights (the question of rulership). `Abdur-Rahman said, “I said, ‘O Chief of the believers! Do not do that, for the season of Hajj gathers the riff-raff and the rubble, and it will be they who will gather around you when you stand to address the people. And I am afraid that you will get up and say something, and some people will spread your statement and may not say what you have actually said and may not understand its meaning, and may interpret it incorrectly, so you should wait till you reach Medina, as it is the place of emigration and the place of Prophet’s Traditions, and there you can come in touch with the learned and noble people, and tell them your ideas with confidence; and the learned people will understand your statement and put it in its proper place.’ On that, `Umar said, ‘By Allah! Allah willing, I will do this in the first speech I will deliver before the people in Medina.“

There are significant parallels between what occurred with Umar ibn al-Khattab, and what occurred with the Messenger of Allah ﷺ.  If we consider the case of Umar ibn al-Khattab first, he had an opportunity to make a very important statement and warning in front those who were residents of Mecca, Medina, tribes from Southern Arabia, Northern Arabia, Iraq, Syria, and other conquered lands, pertaining to the issue of succesorship after him. Yet, Abdurahman ibn Awf recognises that among the people of Mecca, and those who have gathered from all over the empire for the Hajj, are many hypocrites, as well as those who may not be able to truly appreciate and recognise the significance of certain statements and declarations, nor put them in their proper place.

Some may accuse Umar ibn al-Khattab of one thing or another, distort his words, or use it to cause discord among the people against him. He is advised to wait until he reaches Medina, when people have already dispersed and he is only in the company of those who had spent the most amount of time with the Prophet ﷺ and had the greatest role in preserving his traditions. It is these individuals who would be able to put statements of great importance in their proper place. Umar ibn al-Khattab is pleased with his logic and agrees to it at once, and postpones his statement until he reaches Medina. We have already clearly demonstrated the insignificant role of those Muslims who converted at the conquest of Mecca and after this period in transmitting from the Prophet ﷺ – and so Abdurahman ibn Awf is correct in his claim.

The Prophet ﷺ was in a similar position. The people of Mecca who had abused and opposed him for most of his life had only just succumbed. Many of the tribes around Arabia – particularly the southern regions- had succumbed but with great hostility. There existed hypocrites in their large numbers, who may have accused him of trying to keep rule within his clan, or our of jealousy claim he is favouring a member of his own family. We do not here rule out that hypocrites all existed among those in Medina, and those travelling north of Mecca, however the situation was far graver when everyone had gathered in one place.

One must also consider that by the time of Umar ibn Al Khattab, many of the apostate tribes of Yemen, Oman, Bahrain, T’aif and other regions had been dealt with in the Ridda wars. Furthermore, Islam had been in these lands for at least a decade, if not more than this. Despite this, Umar ibn Al Khattab was concerned about hypocrites from Mecca and those of surrounding regions not putting his statement in its proper place and misinterpreting it and causing mischief. Undoubtedly, the situation was graver at the time of the Prophet ﷺ whenMecca had only just been taken, and the neighbouring regions of Yemen, Ta’if and other regions had only just been conquered or had been fought with to submission, still harbouring hypocrites who would apostate during and after his death.

Indeed, we find from an authentic narration contained in al-Kafi [2] whereby the Prophet ﷺ is described as hesitating and being frightened he would be accused of lying - perhaps favouring his own cousin and wishing to procure rule for his own clan. No doubt it shows he was worried about people not putting his declaration and statement in its proper place, and assuming the Prophet ﷺ is essentially a man who has cunningly obtained power and now wants to ensure he has his own circle of blood-relatives share in that power, ruling over the others. Many people who had originally submitted to the Prophet ﷺ , apostated after his death, and the Ridda wars are evidence of this.
 
Quote
“Allāh commanded Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) that he explains to them al-Wilāyah like he has explained to them al-Salāh, al-Zakāh, al-Sawm, al-Hajj. So when this came to him from Allāh, He tightened with that the Messenger of Allāh’s (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) chest, and he became frightened that people will apostate from their religion and they would (accuse) him of lying, and his chest became tightened, and he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) returned to his Lord (عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ), and Allāh (عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ) revealed (wahy) to him – ‘O Messenger, convey what is revealed to you from your Lord. If you do not do so, it will be as though you have not conveyed My message. Allāh protects you from men.’ (5:67). So he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) executed the command of Allāh (تعالى), and he mentioned and established the wilāyah of `Alī (عليه السلام) on the day of Ghadīr, and he called for a congregational salāh and commanded the people to convey what they witnessed to the absentees (i.e. convey the news of Wilāyah of `Alī to those who are not present)”

 

References:

[1] Sahih al-Bukhari 6830, Book 86, Hadith 57/ Vol. 8, Book 82, Hadith 817 ENG

[2] Al Kafi – Kulayni. Usul-al-Kafi, Volume 1.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 07:37:11 PM by Hani »
"I leave behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray...the Quran and my Ahlulbayt" - Musnad Ibn Rawayh (al-Albani classes Isnaad *independently* as Hasan, and Matn as authentic, as does Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar and others.

 

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