TwelverShia.net Forum
Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Imamah-Ghaybah => Topic started by: Link on March 11, 2017, 03:44:07 PM
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Salam
When it comes to Shia-Sunni, it is obvious Sunnis do have hadiths to support their creed in their own sources. What Shias argue is that they also have hadiths that prove Shiism and refute Sunnism in Sunni sources.
Now when it comes to the verse 37:130 it has been passed with two recitations in Sunni sources. One is that it's El Yaseen , or Elyaseen (referring to Elyas) and another is that it's "Auli Yaseen".
Sunnis believe all recitations are from God and even different meanings are intended to be a feature of the book.
The Surah before 37, is called Suratal Yaseen and in there, "Yaseen" is addressed with similar way the some Prophets are mentioned in Suratal Saffat (37).
It's too much of a flow with respect to the Surah before, to dismiss the relationship with it.
Now if Sunni view is right, that both, recitations are from God, then it would mean God blessing Elyas implies that God should bless the family of Yasin and blessing the family of Yasin implies that Elyas should be blessed.
So in this way the family of Mohammad are in Quran.
The flow with how the chosen ones are being singled out, implies the family of Yaseen are such chosen ones.
So this would mean that family of Mohammad are chosen guides.
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No it doesn't flow. Not at all.
Your argument lacks consistency & complete uniformity.
Why is Jesus (AS) an anomoly here?
Who inherited him?
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Now when it comes to the verse 37:130 it has been passed with two recitations in Sunni sources. One is that it's El Yaseen , or Elyaseen (referring to Elyas) and another is that it's "Auli Yaseen".
1. Could you show us which qiraat recited it as "Aali Yaseen"? I'm interested to know.
2. I can't see the word be recited with "Aali Yaseen". Gramatically incorrect.
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http://www.abouttajweed.com/230102.htm
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"Hafs ‘an ‘Aasim reads it with a kasrah on the hamzah, but three others, namely Naaf’, ibn ‘Aamir, and Ya’qoob read the first part as , meaning family."
From the link above.
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"Hafs ‘an ‘Aasim reads it with a kasrah on the hamzah, but three others, namely Naaf’, ibn ‘Aamir, and Ya’qoob read the first part as , meaning family."
From the link above.
Thanks Link...
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So I read the link and there is three recitations Sunnis passed on:
1. El Yaseen, Elyaseen.
2. Aali Yaseen
3. Al Yaseen.
The first means Elyas, the 2nd means the family of Yaseen, and the third means "The Yaseen".
If they are all from God (all three recitations).
It would mean "blessing Elyas" implies "Blessing the Yaseen" (the the would imply this more then a name but Archetype of others like that), and that implies "blessing the family of Yaseen".
And vice versa. Blessing Family of Yaseen would imply blessing the Yaseen, and that would imply blessing Elyas.
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"Hafs ‘an ‘Aasim reads it with a kasrah on the hamzah, but three others, namely Naaf’, ibn ‘Aamir, and Ya’qoob read the first part as , meaning family."
From the link above.
Thanks Link...
You welcome!
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The first means Elyas, the 2nd means the family of Yaseen, and the third means "The Yaseen".
If they are all from God (all three recitations).
It would mean "blessing Elyas" implies "Blessing the Yaseen" (the the would imply this more then a name but Archetype of others like that), and that implies "blessing the family of Yaseen".
And vice versa. Blessing Family of Yaseen would imply blessing the Yaseen, and that would imply blessing Elyas.
You should also remember that if the blessing is on the family of Yaseen, it must also include the wives of Yaseen as well. ;)
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No it doesn't flow. Not at all.
Your argument lacks consistency & complete uniformity.
Why is Jesus (AS) an anomoly here?
Who inherited him?
Brother Zaid, I guess you meant this for another thread.
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See suratal Tahreem and Suratal Ahzaab.
Wives aren't necessarily implied that peace should be upon them, if Prophets are blessed and peace is upon them.
But "family" in the sense of chosen elite closest ones to the Prophet, definitely are implied by that.
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You should also remember that if the blessing is on the family of Yaseen, it must also include Zainab, Ruqayyah and Ummu Kulthum, the other 3 daughters of Yaseen. ;)
If you say Ali r.a. is part of Aali Yassen, then Uthman r.a. must also be part of Aali Yaseen as well since he married to two of the daughters of Yaseen. ;)
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You should also remember that if the blessing is on the family of Yaseen, it must also include Zainab, Ruqayyah and Ummu Kulthum, the other 3 daughters of Yaseen. ;)
If you say Ali r.a. is part of Aali Yassen, then Uthman r.a. must also be part of Aali Yaseen as well since he married to two of the daughters of Yaseen. ;)
Yaseen is chosen by God, Nuh is chosen by God, Abraham is chosen by God, Moses and Aeron are chosen by God. Elyas is chosen by God. Lut is chosen by God. The Messengers are chosen by God.
The family of Yaseen being specially emphasized in this Surah, are no doubt all chosen by God.
This is emphasizing that the family of Yaseen are as well a means to peace.
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You should also remember that if the blessing is on the family of Yaseen, it must also include Zainab, Ruqayyah and Ummu Kulthum, the other 3 daughters of Yaseen. ;)
If you say Ali r.a. is part of Aali Yassen, then Uthman r.a. must also be part of Aali Yaseen as well since he married to two of the daughters of Yaseen. ;)
Yaseen is chosen by God, Nuh is chosen by God, Abraham is chosen by God, Moses and Aeron are chosen by God. Elyas is chosen by God. Lut is chosen by God. The Messengers are chosen by God.
The family of Yaseen being specially emphasized in this Surah, are no doubt all chosen by God.
This is emphasizing that the family of Yaseen are as well a means to peace.
Chosen by Allah for what?
Let us see the ayahs, shall we?
سَلَامٌ عَلَىٰ إِلْ يَاسِينَ
"Peace upon Elias (or Aali Yaseen as per other qiraat)."
Chosen to receive blessing from Allah? I have no problem with that.
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You should also remember that if the blessing is on the family of Yaseen, it must also include Zainab, Ruqayyah and Ummu Kulthum, the other 3 daughters of Yaseen. ;)
If you say Ali r.a. is part of Aali Yassen, then Uthman r.a. must also be part of Aali Yaseen as well since he married to two of the daughters of Yaseen. ;)
Yaseen is chosen by God, Nuh is chosen by God, Abraham is chosen by God, Moses and Aeron are chosen by God. Elyas is chosen by God. Lut is chosen by God. The Messengers are chosen by God.
The family of Yaseen being specially emphasized in this Surah, are no doubt all chosen by God.
This is emphasizing that the family of Yaseen are as well a means to peace.
Chosen by Allah for what?
Let us see the ayahs, shall we?
سَلَامٌ عَلَىٰ إِلْ يَاسِينَ
"Peace upon Elias (or Aali Yaseen as per other qiraat)."
Chosen to receive blessing from Allah? I have no problem with that.
For guiding humanity. As it's obvious, the whole theme is about those chosen to guide humanity.
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You should also remember that if the blessing is on the family of Yaseen, it must also include Zainab, Ruqayyah and Ummu Kulthum, the other 3 daughters of Yaseen. ;)
If you say Ali r.a. is part of Aali Yassen, then Uthman r.a. must also be part of Aali Yaseen as well since he married to two of the daughters of Yaseen. ;)
Yaseen is chosen by God, Nuh is chosen by God, Abraham is chosen by God, Moses and Aeron are chosen by God. Elyas is chosen by God. Lut is chosen by God. The Messengers are chosen by God.
The family of Yaseen being specially emphasized in this Surah, are no doubt all chosen by God.
This is emphasizing that the family of Yaseen are as well a means to peace.
Chosen by Allah for what?
Let us see the ayahs, shall we?
سَلَامٌ عَلَىٰ إِلْ يَاسِينَ
"Peace upon Elias (or Aali Yaseen as per other qiraat)."
Chosen to receive blessing from Allah? I have no problem with that.
For guiding humanity. As it's obvious, the whole theme is about those chosen to guide humanity.
That's the problem with you, Link. You are stretching the meaning of the ayah. Far-fetched to be honest.
Go and read again the ayahs below and tell me if they could have any meaning towards guidance:
سَلَامٌ عَلَىٰ إِلْ يَاسِينَ
إِنَّا كَذَٰلِكَ نَجْزِي الْمُحْسِنِينَ
إِنَّهُ مِنْ عِبَادِنَا الْمُؤْمِنِينَ
Another thing, "innahu" in the 3rd ayah refers to singular masculine (the very first thought I have when I said gramatically incorrect). Only one from the family of Yaseen is a believing servant?
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You should also remember that if the blessing is on the family of Yaseen, it must also include Zainab, Ruqayyah and Ummu Kulthum, the other 3 daughters of Yaseen. ;)
If you say Ali r.a. is part of Aali Yassen, then Uthman r.a. must also be part of Aali Yaseen as well since he married to two of the daughters of Yaseen. ;)
Yaseen is chosen by God, Nuh is chosen by God, Abraham is chosen by God, Moses and Aeron are chosen by God. Elyas is chosen by God. Lut is chosen by God. The Messengers are chosen by God.
The family of Yaseen being specially emphasized in this Surah, are no doubt all chosen by God.
This is emphasizing that the family of Yaseen are as well a means to peace.
Chosen by Allah for what?
Let us see the ayahs, shall we?
سَلَامٌ عَلَىٰ إِلْ يَاسِينَ
"Peace upon Elias (or Aali Yaseen as per other qiraat)."
Chosen to receive blessing from Allah? I have no problem with that.
For guiding humanity. As it's obvious, the whole theme is about those chosen to guide humanity.
That's the problem with you, Link. You are stretching the meaning of the ayah. Far-fetched to be honest.
Go and read again the ayahs below and tell me if they could have any meaning towards guidance:
سَلَامٌ عَلَىٰ إِلْ يَاسِينَ
إِنَّا كَذَٰلِكَ نَجْزِي الْمُحْسِنِينَ
إِنَّهُ مِنْ عِبَادِنَا الْمُؤْمِنِينَ
Another thing, "innahu" in the 3rd ayah refers to singular masculine (the very first thought I have when I said gramatically incorrect). Only one from the family of Yaseen is a believing servant?
It shows the proper way to bless Mohammad is to bless the family of Mohammad.
So the Surah before, was about "Yaseen", and then this shows that God wants us to bless the family of Yaseen and not just Yaseen.
And it goes well with the fact that previous verses didn't mention "peace be upon the family of Nuh" etc, despite them all have chosen families in Quran.
This means their chosen families are blessed when blessing them. But God to manifest that, shows, when he wishes to bless Yaseen he blesses his whole family.
And when the command "..o you who believe bless the Prophet and salute him a become salutation", the umma was taught to bless the family of Mohammad.
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It shows the proper way to bless Mohammad is to bless the family of Mohammad.
So the Surah before, was about "Yaseen", and then this shows that God wants us to bless the family of Yaseen and not just Yaseen.
And it goes well with the fact that previous verses didn't mention "peace be upon the family of Nuh" etc, despite them all have chosen families in Quran.
This means their chosen families are blessed when blessing them. But God to manifest that, shows, when he wishes to bless Yaseen he blesses his whole family.
And when the command "..o you who believe bless the Prophet and salute him a become salutation", the umma was taught to bless the family of Mohammad.
Hahaha... sorry for laughing. That's what I said. You are stretching the meaning until it becomes so far-fetched. And you have a gut to say other people following their own desires and not you.
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Salam
When it comes to Shia-Sunni, it is obvious Sunnis do have hadiths to support their creed in their own sources. What Shias argue is that they also have hadiths that prove Shiism and refute Sunnism in Sunni sources.
Hadeeth are classified into Sahih, Daef, etc. So may be the daef the unreliable ones refute Sunnism, as usually the case when the hadeeths used by Shias are verified. Or in few odd cases the hadeeth themselves are vague and not Qati(categorical) and explicit, and they are open for interpretation, BUT in this case SUnnis have many Qati and Authentic ahadeeth which refute the Shia interpretations to those vague hadeeths.
Now when it comes to the verse 37:130 it has been passed with two recitations in Sunni sources. One is that it's El Yaseen , or Elyaseen (referring to Elyas) and another is that it's "Auli Yaseen".
Sunnis believe all recitations are from God and even different meanings are intended to be a feature of the book.
The Surah before 37, is called Suratal Yaseen and in there, "Yaseen" is addressed with similar way the some Prophets are mentioned in Suratal Saffat (37).
It's too much of a flow with respect to the Surah before, to dismiss the relationship with it.
Now if Sunni view is right, that both, recitations are from God, then it would mean God blessing Elyas implies that God should bless the family of Yasin and blessing the family of Yasin implies that Elyas should be blessed.
So in this way the family of Mohammad are in Quran.
The flow with how the chosen ones are being singled out, implies the family of Yaseen are such chosen ones.
So this would mean that family of Mohammad are chosen guides.
Shia tafseer[The Light of The Holy Qur’an] for the verse 130 of Surat as-Saffat states:We must learn from Allah (s.w.t.) how to greet to Divine prophets, the great friends of Allah. This verse says: {“Peace be on ’Ilyāsin (Elyās).”}The application of the term ’Ilyāsīn instead of Elyās is either for the sake that ’Ilyāsīn was a word inside the term Elyās and both of them have the same meaning; or it refers to Elyās and his followers which has been used in this total form.
(Source: The Light of The Holy Qur’an by Ayatullah Sayyid Kamal Faghih Imani and A Group of Muslim Scholars, under explanation of verse, 37:130)
Comment: Interestingly we find that the Shia scholars gave two opinions, the second opinion is that Ilyas and HIS FOLLOWERS were ment by ‘il Yasin’.
Even the famous Shia translator of Quran in English language – Muhammad Sarwar – translated this verse as:
Peace be with the followers of Elias. (Quran 37:130).
I suggest you to read this article:
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2012/05/23/salawat-series-the-fact-about-salawatdurood-regarding-which-shias-are-unaware/
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That is missing the point of the intro to the Surah before and the re-emphasis of the Surah after, and how it's manifestly interlinked.
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That is missing the point of the intro to the Surah before and the re-emphasis of the Surah after, and how it's manifestly interlinked.
I gave you the view presented by a qualified Shia Mufassir and a Shia Translator. Aal does mean followers and it even includes wives btw. Refer the link I gave for further proofs.
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I have yet to see a Sunni who deeply studies the religion and remains honest.
This is one reason I cannot take seriously the ratings of Rijaal of Sunni scholars.
The Quran has an "Ahlulbayt" verse regarding Ibrahim, and it has one regarding Mohammad. The one with respect to the family of Abraham does so when it heavily contrasts between true family of Nuh and his son who is considered to not be.
It also emphasizes that Sarah was given knews of Isaac which was ironic and funny with her laugh.
We see Salawat taught by Nabi is to bless Mohammad and the family Mohammad in remembering that Abraham and the family of Abraham were similarly to be blessed by God.
Talut inherited from the family of Moses and Aeron, not their followers.
Aside from all this, the Prophet is reported to have said "I remind you by God of my the people of my household" three times after emphasizing his two legacies he was leaving behind, and what is the Prophet meant to do and what is he himself? The Prophet is a reminder and reminds people, the Quran is a reminder.....
And he emphasizes on it three times.
God have mercy on us and give us love towards the near kin of the seal of Prophets.
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You should also remember that if the blessing is on the family of Yaseen, it must also include Zainab, Ruqayyah and Ummu Kulthum, the other 3 daughters of Yaseen. ;)
If you say Ali r.a. is part of Aali Yassen, then Uthman r.a. must also be part of Aali Yaseen as well since he married to two of the daughters of Yaseen. ;)
Yaseen is chosen by God, Nuh is chosen by God, Abraham is chosen by God, Moses and Aeron are chosen by God. Elyas is chosen by God. Lut is chosen by God. The Messengers are chosen by God.
The family of Yaseen being specially emphasized in this Surah, are no doubt all chosen by God.
This is emphasizing that the family of Yaseen are as well a means to peace.
Chosen by Allah for what?
Let us see the ayahs, shall we?
سَلَامٌ عَلَىٰ إِلْ يَاسِينَ
"Peace upon Elias (or Aali Yaseen as per other qiraat)."
Chosen to receive blessing from Allah? I have no problem with that.
For guiding humanity. As it's obvious, the whole theme is about those chosen to guide humanity.
Aaa... if that is the case, Uthman must also be one of the chosen one as well! ;)
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I have yet to see a Sunni who deeply studies the religion and remains honest.
This is one reason I cannot take seriously the ratings of Rijaal of Sunni scholars.
and yet you claim to take Quran transmitted by Sunnis seriously. Even though it goes against the hadeeth of honest Shia narrations which mentions certain verses to be revealed differently.
The Quran has an "Ahlulbayt" verse regarding Ibrahim, and it has one regarding Mohammad. The one with respect to the family of Abraham does so when it heavily contrasts between true family of Nuh and his son who is considered to not be.
It also emphasizes that Sarah was given knews of Isaac which was ironic and funny with her laugh.
Ironically both the examples you cited for Ahlulbayt, is in relation to the WIVES of the person, refer 11:72-73 and 33:32-33.
As for expelling the son of Nuh(as) from the family of Nuh, then it rightly points out that he was a DISBELIEVER. No where does it mentions that he was a believer but a normal believer, or less righteous believer, but because he wasn't infallible or chosen he was expelled from Ahlulbayt or not saved, no one ever held such a view. And at the same time you see Sara(as) the wife of Ibrahim(as) who was not infallible not chosen to Imam, but a righteous believer , she was called Ahlulbayt.
So the examples you used goes perfectly in the line of Sunni view.
We see Salawat taught by Nabi is to bless Mohammad and the family Mohammad....
O yeah we see it:
اللَّهُمَّ صَلِّ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ وَأَزْوَاجِهِ وَذُرِّيَّتِهِ كَمَا صَلَّيْتَ عَلَى آلِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَبَارِكْ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ وَأَزْوَاجِهِ وَذُرِّيَّتِهِ كَمَا بَارَكْتَ عَلَى آلِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ إِنَّكَ حَمِيدٌ مَجِيدٌ
Abu Humaid as−Sa’idi reported: They (the Companions of the Holy Prophet) said: Apostle of Allah, how should we bless you? He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Say:” O Allah! bless Muhammad, his wives and his offspring as Thou didst bless Ibrahim, and grant favours to Muhammad, and his wives and his offspring as Thou didst grant favours to the aal of Ibrahim; Thou art Praiseworthy and Glorious.” (Sahi muslim Bk 4, Number 0807).
Talut inherited from the family of Moses and Aeron, not their followers.
how and what did he? Was he related to them biologically?
Aside from all this, the Prophet is reported to have said "I remind you by God of my the people of my household" three times after emphasizing his two legacies he was leaving behind, and what is the Prophet meant to do and what is he himself? The Prophet is a reminder and reminds people, the Quran is a reminder.....
This had a context and it was when people objected to the Khums(portion dedicated for his family members ) when Ali took it, this made Prophet(saws) remind people that they should take care of his family, since his family members weren't eligible to receive charity either.
God have mercy on us and give us love towards the near kin of the seal of Prophets.
Ameen
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And at the same time you see Sara(as) the wife of Ibrahim(as) who was not infallible
Where do I see that? The whole talk before and after suggests she is an infallible.
1. Isaac and Jacob are mentioned.
2. She is grouped with such individuals.
3. The Quran says God chose the family of Abraham above the worlds.
4. She is mentioned to belong to a family that is blessed and who extensive mercy of God is upon.
What makes you think she is not chosen like Mariam? She gave birth in old age and was a vehicle of a miracle of God.
And as for "wives and offspring", many verses show many of the offspring of Abraham were unjust.
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how and what did he? Was he related to them biologically?
The Quran is not over assertive in the sense it asserts things which no one can verify. It is designed to manifest the truth, with all the pieces that are very much agreed upon by all people of the book.
It pieces various fragments of the truth of what is distorted or otherwise hidden and not emphasized, and brings it together showing the way of God.
Since people of the book accepted Abraham - Isaac - Jacob - Yusuf, line, it emphasized on that.
The Quran never ever states a non-related person inherited from a founder or successors to a founder or that God ever appointed a series of guides that succeed one another that are not considered chosen family.
We see in Quran ONLY emphasis on chosen family and blood relationship between these group of chosen individuals.
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And at the same time you see Sara(as) the wife of Ibrahim(as) who was not infallible
Where do I see that? The whole talk before and after suggests she is an infallible.
1. Isaac and Jacob are mentioned.
2. She is grouped with such individuals.
3. The Quran says God chose the family of Abraham above the worlds.
4. She is mentioned to belong to a family that is blessed and who extensive mercy of God is upon.
What makes you think she is not chosen like Mariam? She gave birth in old age and was a vehicle of a miracle of God.
None of the virtues of sara(as) shows that she was infallible. A righteous woman can also achieve that. When Asiya the wife of firawn was declared as one of the best woman of all times that doesn't mean she was infallible. Even if I'm to assume that Sara(as) was infallible for arguments sake then that would mean that even Khadijah(ra) was also infallible. Because she was included among the best women of all times.
As for my beliefs that why don't I believe that Sara(as) was infallible is because of facts like these, which are not only in Sunni ahadeeth but Shia hadeeth as well.
We read in Shia book al-Khisal:
والمحنة في النفس حين جعل في المنجنيق وقذف به في النار، ثم المحنة في الولد حين أمر بذبح ابنه إسماعيل، ثم المحنة بالأهل حين خلص الله عز وجل حرمته من عزازة القبطي المذكور في هذه القصة ، ثم الصبر على سوء خلق سارة
Then it refers to a trial in his life when he was put in a catapult and thrown into the fire. Then it refers to a trial in his son when he was ordered to offer his son Ishmael. Then it refers to his trial through his family when the Honorable the Exalted God freed his wife from the hands of Azarat al-Qabti mentioned in history. Then it refers to his patience with the bad conduct of (his wife) Sarah. [al-Khisal, p. 308]
Similarly, We read in Shia book ilal al-shara’ie:
ان الأنبياء عليهم السلام كانت تسقط عنهم غلفهم مع سررهم يوم السابع فلما ولد لإبراهيم إسماعيل من هاجر عيرتها سارة بما تعير به الإماء، فقال: فبكت هاجر واشتد ذلك عليها، فلما رآها إسماعيل تبكي بكى لبكاءها
وسأله عن أول من خفض من النساء، فقال: هي هاجر أم إسماعيل خفضتها سارة لتخرج من يمينها، وسأله عن أول امرأة جرت ذيلها، فقال: هاجر لما هربت من سارة
Similarly in Shia book, Wasail al-Shia
وعنهم، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن علي بن الحكم، عن أبان الأحمر، عن محمد الواسطي قال: قال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام: ان إبراهيم شكى إلى الله تعالى ما يلقى من سوء خلق ساره فأوحى الله إليه إنما مثل المرأة مثل الضلع المعوج ان أقمته كسرته وان تركته استمتعت به اصبر عليها
We read in Shia book Tarjuma Maqbool, which is approved by twelve grand scholars of the sub continent.
In Tafseer Qummi, it is narrated from Imam Jafar Sadiq that Abraham was settled in a desert of Syria. Hajira(as) gave birth to Ismail. Sara(as) was highly saddened by it, that she had no child and Hajira gave birth to a male baby. Sara would hurt Abraham alot regarding Hajira, and would aggrieve him. [Zamima Maqbool, p. 255]
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There are more authentic hadiths that ALL of the family of Abraham were chosen and pure in Shiite sources, then those hadiths you mentioned.
That and that meaning is confirmed in Quran.
So Sarah stands as chosen, exalted, and infallible.
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There are more authentic hadiths that ALL of the family of Abraham were chosen and pure in Shiite sources, then those hadiths you mentioned.
That and that meaning is confirmed in Quran.
So Sarah stands as chosen, exalted, and infallible.
You are picking & choosing which events are linked to fulfill your beliefs.
You pick & choose to link the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) to Abraham (AS) & both their households.
One can easily debunk this & instead link Jesus(AS) not leaving any offspring & the Holy Prophet (SAW) not leaving any surving male offspring.
Infact the latter would be a case to dismiss the link to Abraham(AS) in the sense he had male children successors, whilst the Prophet (SAW) didn't.
Also the period of Jesus(AS) prophethood is closer to thr holy prophet's (SAW).
Its so easy to pick & choose themes.
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There are more authentic hadiths that ALL of the family of Abraham were chosen and pure in Shiite sources, then those hadiths you mentioned.
That and that meaning is confirmed in Quran.
So Sarah stands as chosen, exalted, and infallible.
You are picking & choosing which events are linked to fulfill your beliefs.
You pick & choose to link the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) to Abraham (AS) & both their households.
One can easily debunk this & instead link Jesus(AS) not leaving any offspring & the Holy Prophet (SAW) not leaving any surving male offspring.
Infact the latter would be a case to dismiss the link to Abraham(AS) in the sense he had male children successors, whilst the Prophet (SAW) didn't.
Also the period of Jesus(AS) prophethood is closer to thr holy prophet's (SAW).
Its so easy to pick & choose themes.
Jesus was the final one of the family of Moses/Aeron/Dawood/Imran (one family).
He was the last of the 12 Captains associated to Moses.
This would be like saying the whole concept of Ahlulbayt makes no sense, because Imam Mahdi will not have chosen guides in his offspring.
There is always last member where it ends, and no one else is born to be part of that family.
Jesus's true twelve Captains and his family, are Moses all the way down to Yahya, the successors before him as well as chosen exalted ladies like Mariam.
With peace.
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You hit the nail on the head.
It is precisely one of the reasons the shia concept of ahle bayt makes no sense.
We seem to be bridging the polarity gap😀
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There are more authentic hadiths that ALL of the family of Abraham were chosen and pure in Shiite sources, then those hadiths you mentioned.
That and that meaning is confirmed in Quran.
So Sarah stands as chosen, exalted, and infallible.
You are picking & choosing which events are linked to fulfill your beliefs.
You pick & choose to link the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) to Abraham (AS) & both their households.
One can easily debunk this & instead link Jesus(AS) not leaving any offspring & the Holy Prophet (SAW) not leaving any surving male offspring.
Infact the latter would be a case to dismiss the link to Abraham(AS) in the sense he had male children successors, whilst the Prophet (SAW) didn't.
Also the period of Jesus(AS) prophethood is closer to thr holy prophet's (SAW).
Its so easy to pick & choose themes.
Jesus was the final one of the family of Moses/Aeron/Dawood/Imran (one family).
He was the last of the 12 Captains associated to Moses.
It's false idea to say that Isa(as) was one of the 12 Captains associated to MoosA(as)
The 12 captains associated to Moosa(as) all lived during the same era. And they all were contemporaries of one another.
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There are more authentic hadiths that ALL of the family of Abraham were chosen and pure in Shiite sources, then those hadiths you mentioned.
That and that meaning is confirmed in Quran.
So Sarah stands as chosen, exalted, and infallible.
That's the irony about the man-made Madhab you are upon. There are contradictions in every aspect of your Madhab , the contradictions are to such an extent that many people left Shiism due to these contradictions. And it's not just me who says this, but rather it was attested by big Shia scholar Tusi.
Ironically your case is that you want to clutch straws based on vague things when you have explicit proofs against your perspective. But the rijz in your heart doesn't allow you to reject the vague and unclear concepts
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There are more authentic hadiths that ALL of the family of Abraham were chosen and pure in Shiite sources, then those hadiths you mentioned.
That and that meaning is confirmed in Quran.
So Sarah stands as chosen, exalted, and infallible.
You are picking & choosing which events are linked to fulfill your beliefs.
You pick & choose to link the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) to Abraham (AS) & both their households.
One can easily debunk this & instead link Jesus(AS) not leaving any offspring & the Holy Prophet (SAW) not leaving any surving male offspring.
Infact the latter would be a case to dismiss the link to Abraham(AS) in the sense he had male children successors, whilst the Prophet (SAW) didn't.
Also the period of Jesus(AS) prophethood is closer to thr holy prophet's (SAW).
Its so easy to pick & choose themes.
Jesus was the final one of the family of Moses/Aeron/Dawood/Imran (one family).
He was the last of the 12 Captains associated to Moses.
It's false idea to say that Isa(as) was one of the 12 Captains associated to MoosA(as)
The 12 captains associated to Moosa(as) all lived during the same era. And they all were contemporaries of one another.
Do you want to have a one on one debate on this? Regarding verse 5:12. I would argue for it referring to his successors and you can argue it referring it to contemporaries.
Let's have an official debate about this.
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It would be hard for anyone to take you seriously enough to have an official one to one debate. If you want to be taken seriously then you should do something other than avoid posts that you cannot answer.
Its not fair or honest to start threads or post in threads then avoid them threads as you cannot answer certain questions put to you.
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There are more authentic hadiths that ALL of the family of Abraham were chosen and pure in Shiite sources, then those hadiths you mentioned.
That and that meaning is confirmed in Quran.
So Sarah stands as chosen, exalted, and infallible.
You are picking & choosing which events are linked to fulfill your beliefs.
You pick & choose to link the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) to Abraham (AS) & both their households.
One can easily debunk this & instead link Jesus(AS) not leaving any offspring & the Holy Prophet (SAW) not leaving any surving male offspring.
Infact the latter would be a case to dismiss the link to Abraham(AS) in the sense he had male children successors, whilst the Prophet (SAW) didn't.
Also the period of Jesus(AS) prophethood is closer to thr holy prophet's (SAW).
Its so easy to pick & choose themes.
Jesus was the final one of the family of Moses/Aeron/Dawood/Imran (one family).
He was the last of the 12 Captains associated to Moses.
It's false idea to say that Isa(as) was one of the 12 Captains associated to MoosA(as)
The 12 captains associated to Moosa(as) all lived during the same era. And they all were contemporaries of one another.
Do you want to have a one on one debate on this? Regarding verse 5:12. I would argue for it referring to his successors and you can argue it referring it to contemporaries.
Let's have an official debate about this.
I have done a debate with you on this topic long a ago on hcy forum and I know your ways and seriously it's a total waste of time, because you no academic honesty or approach in you. You follow your own understanding even though they may go against both Sunni and Shia scholars.
And not only debate but I even had a Mubahila with you on the issue of infallibility and eventually I found you apostating some time after Mubahila.
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It would be hard for anyone to take you seriously enough to have an official one to one debate. If you want to be taken seriously then you should do something other than avoid posts that you cannot answer.
Its not fair or honest to start threads or post in threads then avoid them threads as you cannot answer certain questions put to you.
You guys like to jump over the place. Half the time, when something is proven to you, it all comes down to the issue of Ghayba.
Every topic is to be discussed, not a bunch of topics diverging with any question you guys pose.
There proofs in this thread stand.
Suratal Yaseen has a flow in the beginning. The next Surah is well connected by that flow. The eloquence in "Peace be upon the family of Yaseen" is obvious.
The theme is there from past Surah and the theme in that Surah being connected, is obvious.
Something I did not mention, there is no reason to disconnect the lam from the ya, in El Yaseen. The only way it makes sense it's disconnected, is the meaning of "Auli Yaseen".
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It would be hard for anyone to take you seriously enough to have an official one to one debate. If you want to be taken seriously then you should do something other than avoid posts that you cannot answer.
Its not fair or honest to start threads or post in threads then avoid them threads as you cannot answer certain questions put to you.
You guys like to jump over the place. Half the time, when something is proven to you, it all comes down to the issue of Ghayba.
Every topic is to be discussed, not a bunch of topics diverging with any question you guys pose.
There proofs in this thread stand.
Suratal Yaseen has a flow in the beginning. The next Surah is well connected by that flow. The eloquence in "Peace be upon the family of Yaseen" is obvious.
The theme is there from past Surah and the theme in that Surah being connected, is obvious.
Something I did not mention, there is no reason to disconnect the lam from the ya, in El Yaseen. The only way it makes sense it's disconnected, is the meaning of "Auli Yaseen".
You have been proven wrong frm the views of both Sunni and Shia scholars.
Your theories were a total flop.
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When you have the humility to come to the hadiths of Ahlulbayt keeping in mind the words of the Prophet "do not teach them, for they know more than you", everything will become easy.
Till then keep reading the book you call Quran, I will read the Quran I believe in, and we will see who read the Satanic Quran and who read the Quran as interpreted by those rooted in knowledge.
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When you have the humility to come to the hadiths of Ahlulbayt keeping in mind the words of the Prophet "do not teach them, for they know more than you", everything will become easy.
Till then keep reading the book you call Quran, I will read the Quran I believe in, and we will see who read the Satanic Quran and who read the Quran as interpreted by those rooted in knowledge.
You have been deceived by Shaitan the devil to believe that whatever foolish theories you make up by yourself is the truth. Know that you are upon the path of misguidance and devil is riding upon you in this darkness.
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سَلَامٌ عَلَىٰ إِلْ يَاسِينَ
إِنَّا كَذَٰلِكَ نَجْزِي الْمُحْسِنِينَ
إِنَّهُ مِنْ عِبَادِنَا الْمُؤْمِنِينَ
What does all these ayah means? Appoint Aali Yaseen as the leaders?
We will see who read the Satanic Quran and who isn't.
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سَلَامٌ عَلَىٰ إِلْ يَاسِينَ
إِنَّا كَذَٰلِكَ نَجْزِي الْمُحْسِنِينَ
إِنَّهُ مِنْ عِبَادِنَا الْمُؤْمِنِينَ
What does all these ayah means? Appoint Aali Yaseen as the leaders?
Yes that is implicitly implied. It means Mohammad has a chosen family. And chosen ones are always appointed as leaders and guides. And the theme was peace being upon exalted chosen souls.
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Peace be upon the family of Yaseen.
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The recitations are believed to reached us and to be believed in.
So the Surah before states 'Yaseen' and the Surah after resembles the opening lines in the way it recalls the Prophets of the past, but then ends up finishing it off with "Peace be upon the family of Yaseen."
It mentions other Prophets like Lut and Yonus (so not just Elyas) but finally blesses them with "And peace be upon the emissaries".
So for sake of argument even the recitation 'Elyaseen' is true, it would mean that God blesses the family of Yaseen with regards to Yaseen, in the same he blesses Elyas, Abraham, Nuh, etc, with regards to themselves.
So please don't say the family of Mohammad is not in Quran when they are according to the recitations that have been passed according to Sunni sources.