Verse 42:23.

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Verse 42:23.
« on: March 08, 2020, 01:31:27 AM »
Does anyone want to have a one on one debate about 42:23?


Re: Verse 42:23.
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2020, 11:38:40 PM »
This is Link by the way.


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Re: Verse 42:23.
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2020, 10:53:15 PM »
This is Link by the way.

Then it is gonna be futile.
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری | |


Re: Verse 42:23.
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2020, 05:37:19 AM »
Both sides won't convince the other, but at least, the points of both sides will be made known.

I also have completely changed my view about verse 42:23 then before. I will explain in the debate.


Re: Verse 42:23.
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2020, 09:20:14 AM »
Maybe I should elaborate a bit. I've realize all the verses concerning reward are neither how Shiite or Sunni tafsirs have it.

It's not saying Mohammad's (s) seeking a reward but it's not denying the perspective either.  This might sound confusing, but, it means, fake Prophets are seen as greedy for power, fame, influence, moral landscaping, being the centre of attention, obedience, governing, ruling, etc.

The fact is God is not going to just say "of course he doesn't seek any reward because he doesn't ask you wealth from you for himself", because those other things are things you would even want if you were rich, they are seen as greater then wealth. However not seeking wealth while emphasizing the reward people saw them as seeking to be really regarding God as obedience to them is obedience to God and they are the way to God and his means of guidance, makes sense.

So really the reward of Mohammad was asked by God but also denied by God. It's saying all that you can accuse him of seeking as a personal reward really is just this and that.

For example, 25:57 is saying what reward does he really seek but that it is in fact really who wants to take towards their Lord a path.

And read them all in light of that, and they make SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much more sense.

And for 42:23 is in light of all this saying what is that you accuse me of seeking reward but recognizing us Ahlulbayt for who we are.

And kinship can be seen as greedy to, favoring bloodline, but that is why Quran went to great lengths to emphasize on the wisdom of it in the past.

And so if you keep this in mind, it's clear, the position of the family of Mohammad in Quran. And the love in 42:23 is a type of love humans have for other humans, it's not for abstract things like video games or love of an action or kinship, it's impossible to be that linguistically.

It includes affection in that type of love and that doesn't make sense for abstract relationship.

And so Hani was right, the verse in Suratal Yaseen means really all Messengers don't seek a reward but that was how a believer argued. And even that believer from his perspective says "and what reason do I have not to Worship..." meaning they are the means to Worship God properly. But God understands humans are suspicious because of forgers and fake Prophets do exist, and so understands, that they would accuse him of bad intentions behind his claim to Prophethood and so the other verses are making a case, that which seems like Mohammad's is greedy for power, authority, monarchy, etc, favoring his blood line, wanting to be known to whole world, exalted in people's eyes, imposing his moral views, etc is all really regarding God as he is the means to God and the way to obey God.

The message he delivered in a perspective makes him look power hungry, fame hungry, so centred around him etc, but really the Messengers are the means to God.

God is just asking us to recognize the family of Mohamad for who they are, Mohammad and his family are the means to God and so to love them and appreciate them and be tender hearted towards them, but really obedience is to God and God has a Unique Wilayah with humans and his creation that Mohammad and his family do not have, but he uses Mohammad and his family to guide humans and to establish this Wilayah.

I see it with the flow in Surah 42 and it contextualizes that. And other Surahs it contextualizes it like this when talking about the reward.

It's an accusation but God doesn't say "no he doesn't, the Quran is only a reminder", no rather, he addresses the doubts humans have and says yes it makes them look greedy etc, but really there is no other way, this is the way towards himself, the way he guides and establishes his Wilayah over his servants and tests them and graces them with his favor of his religion.

« Last Edit: March 10, 2020, 09:24:06 AM by Soccer »


Re: Verse 42:23.
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2020, 09:43:22 AM »
And the proofs for this are a lot. I can prove any reward verse regarding Prophets being on the defensive about it, are all in this context and explained in that way.

Every Surah that talked about it, talked about it in this way.

And this is also the easier way to see, the more clear linguistically, the more natural type of reading humans should have of it.

But what screwed our minds is the Sorcery from Iblis. All these years and I couldn't see it.  And I have proof of this from ahadith for example in the debate between Imam Reda (as) and scholars about the meaning of the family of Mohammad (s) and their difference from the nation of Mohammad (s)


Re: Verse 42:23.
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2020, 10:46:16 AM »
By the way, Surah 25 emphasizes on those who turn away from Mohammad not having a path of guidance at all, and the reward he is accused of seeking is emphasized to be a path towards God.

And the chapter after (chapter 26) emphasizes the Messengers before including Noah would say "I ask no reward regarding it in that the reward is upon God".

There is two ways to see, it can be seen as regarding God or that the reward they accuse them of seeking, it's upon God to establish such authority and such a reminder and establish his chosen ones and their leadership and fame in the land and unite humanity upon them.

It's actually a reminder to all of humanity and the way to God per 25:57.

In Suratal Anaam it's reminded to a reminder to the worlds in midst of emphasizing on past Messengers and that God chooses from their offspring, and fathers, and brethren, and in light of that, emphasized in flow to that.

Pay attention.

This is the context. And chapter 26, it emphasizes that Pharaoh accused Moses of wanting power in the land and exultance, he and his brother.

It's upon God means his religion through the chosen ones, this is upon God. Or it can mean regarding God. But the former seems more eloquent and natural with respect to the Surah.

In either case, God is putting  a defense to them, and saying, that which they are accused of, they have no choice in it as it's upon God or regarding God.

42:23 is saying he isn't asking us to worship them or centre around them, just to love them, and they light the way and guide to God so appreciate them and have affection for them and honor them and be tender hearted towards them and then put's similarly a defense to it like other reward verses and says "and whoever does a goodness" and so the goodness here is love of them Ahlulbayt.

It's the way to be good, is to be on the side of God's chosen, to love them and honor them and it's upon God to establish them in the earth and it's God who made them his represantatives, and ultimately, it's upon God to make a way towards him through chosen ones.

« Last Edit: March 10, 2020, 10:51:41 AM by Soccer »


Re: Verse 42:23.
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2020, 06:33:22 AM »
The reward they accused Messengers of seeking, it is upon only God and no one else, to establish authority, fame, religion, central position, leadership in religion, I forget to translate the Ila part and completely omitted it.


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