Where does a Sayyid get his status from?

[GreatChineseFall]

Salam, this is again a somewhat premature thread, however I noticed somthing. In Sunni-Shia dicussions about narrations in Sunni literature or the Qur'an, when one talks about the Ahl al Bayt mentioned in a a particular narration or a Quranic verse, the discussion usually goes as follows. The Shia will argue that the narration or verse talks specifically about the twelve Imams or the fourteen Infallibles and how authority has been given to them. The Sunni will argue that the Ahl al Bayt is about the progeny of the Prophet(s.a.w.s.) or the descendants of Abdul Muttalib in general and the narration is talking about the responsibility of taking care of them. This happens with virtually every narration in Sunni literature.

On the other hand, one of the things that Sunni's and Shia's have in common is that they observe a certain attitude towards the progeny of the Prophet(s.a.w.s.) and gives them a high status. In Shia literature you have countless narrations that talk about the twelve Imams but also about the progeny in general and they are understood as such as well. In Sunni literature, as far as I can tell (and this is the premature part), there aren't many narrations about the progeny in general that Shia's would like to admit and agree with that it is in fact about the progeny in general.

The strange thing then is that if it is true as the Shia claim that virtually every narration of this kind in Sunni literature talks in reality about the twelve Imams and their authority then this kind of attitude of observing someone as a Sayyid by Sunni's is baseless, wrong and an innovation. From a Sunni perspective it is easy to explain, the narrations that are usually discussed are to be understood as Sunni scholars explain them and the Shia are simply wrong about their interpretation. The Shia however have to as a result of this either consider an explanation of some kind of elaborate scheming by the rulers who removed all narrations promoting the taking care of the Ahl al Bayt in general and leave the narrations proving the authority of the twelve Imams while at the same time giving them an interpration consistent with the former or some other less reasonable explanation. This however is far less reasonable than the Sunni view in my opinion.

[Link]

What do you make of the verse saying those closest to Abraham are those who followed him and those who believe?

[GreatChineseFall]

What do you make of the verse saying those closest to Abraham are those who followed him and those who believe?

I take from it that the ones closest to Abraham are those who followed him and those who believe. It is clear, why would I take from it more than what is apparent? And what is the relation with this topic?

[If you are going to get esoterical on very flimsy grounds, I will personally go to the data servers hosting twelvershia.net, rip the hard drives out and smash them to pieces]

[Link]

I take from it that the ones closest to Abraham are those who followed him and those who believe. It is clear, why would I take from it more than what is apparent? And what is the relation with this topic?

There is always more to a verse than what is apparent to people who read it heedlessly, since what is important is how it relates to the Surah, and relates to every verse in the Surah whether directly or indirectly, and how that Surah relates to other Surahs in Quran, and how they emphasize on the truth.

So that is one reason you ought to take more than what is apparent to you.

The other question is what it's relationship to the topic.

Indeed this Syed concept is similar to how Bani-Israel distinguished themselves for being related to Yaqoub, but Quran says:

1. Bani-Israel were selected to have the Prophets amongst them and for them to made leaders and for those leaders to be the inheritors, because of their patience and resolve in love of God. It's the same in the past, when believers were patient, God saved them from an oppressive people.  It was not due to them being sons of Yaqoub.

2. The closest to Abraham were those who followed him and those who believe meaning if some person in a remote place follows Abraham but doesn't have his blood, he is closer than one who does not follow him but doesn't have his blood. This is directly linked to the issue of Syeds, because, we have no proof any of them follows Mohammad (pbuh&hf) more than a non-Syed, so no special status is really given.

3. The Quran shows every people had Prophets, I mean, is always people related to the Prophet by blood that are special and to be treated at a higher pedestal?

4. Indeed the families of Prophets ARE chosen, but what does Quran mean by that? We see example of Mariam, Yahya and Isa, we see example of Isaac, Yaqoub, Yusuf, we see example of Sarah, etc. They are pure through out their lives, and God knew they would be, and he knew they would have resolve and patience for love of God for which he made them into leaders, for their certainty in his value and beauty.  There is no hint what was meant by family of Abraham or family of Imran were just pious believing people related to them by blood.

Indeed a pious person related to them by blood and pious person not related to them by blood, because Prophets relate to people as their leader and guide and people are to be spiritually from them, are the same in regards to closeness.

The Shariah would reflect that.

In the Thul-Qurba who khums was due to, were special, not every person related by blood and this emphasized and reminded with that some of holders of family relationship are closer in the book of God than others, and we see this is true of Yusuf with respect to Yaqoub for example over his other bothers.

While it makes sense if I have a son I love my son more than another person who has same level of goodness and that shouldn't be a huge factor, he is my flesh and blood, and I am not a spiritual leader or anything that people be born out of me, that my son remains close regardless if his conduct is righteous but rather if he is conduct is not righteous the love should make me want to guide him and help him....when it comes to Prophets they are special to all people, not just their blood family.

And for that reason, their true family, cannot be just normal blood or believers that happen to blood bound.

[Abu Muhammad]

Good. Keep on contradicting yourself, as usual...

There is always more to a verse than what is apparent to people who read it heedlessly, since what is important is how it relates to the Surah, and relates to every verse in the Surah whether directly or indirectly, and how that Surah relates to other Surahs in Quran, and how they emphasize on the truth.

So that is one reason you ought to take more than what is apparent to you.

I don't know if he hates them or not, but what is with you guys always not taking a statement for what it is. He said it has nothing to do with that.

I swear to God, I hate discussing with you guys, because you guys always imagine statements to say more then they say or less than they say by your false thinking.

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Take a statement for what it is.

Stop imagining and making it say what you desire. This should be done with what other people say, with the Prophet words, and with  Quran it is the most important thing.

I started to believe what brother Hadrami said. You should take your mental pill...

[Link]

Keep on proving you can't understand a single wisdom properly and see things in their proper place and twist everyone's words including God's out of context.

[Abu Muhammad]

It is a basic common sense not to take any "wisdoms" from a guy who keep on contradicting himself but yet believe he is on the truth. Simple and straightforward decision for anybody to make.

Keep on proving you can't understand a single wisdom properly and see things in their proper place and twist everyone's words including God's out of context.

Hahaha... I'm the one who should say that to you and not vice versa...

[Hadrami]

It is a basic common sense not to take any "wisdoms" from a guy who keep on contradicting himself but yet believe he is on the truth.

well, the essence of shitism is contradiction
Shia in theory: only infallible can guide us as fallible make mistake
Shia in practice: only fallibles can guide us now as infallible is hiding
😁😁

[Link]

It is a basic common sense not to take any "wisdoms" from a guy who keep on contradicting himself but yet believe he is on the truth.

well, the essence of shitism is contradiction
Shia in theory: only infallible can guide us as fallible make mistake
Shia in practice: only fallibles can guide us now as infallible is hiding
😁😁

It's a contradiction that either proves all religions are false or proves the true religion.

All religions teach that religions have been corrupted starting from misinterpretation and the truth was not followed, every sect claims to be guided.

But they all claim need of a founding leader who gets his legitimacy from God somehow, and that the founding leader has brought the truth from God.

Then they divide in representing this truth and are lead by people who for all they know may have misunderstood the message of their founder.

You are right Shia in practice contradict all their arguments for Imammate, but whay you don't see is that Sunni arguments for Prophethood also fall apart when we deem humans capable of leading others and that we are capable of picking who is enlightened and righteous to teach the religion to others and that people center around these people.

It breaks the need of guidance from God in the first place.  We could just recognize people who are guided without revelation from God and agree on the truth through recognizing the best of us.

But reality is, humans tend to gravitate to the worse of them, by a sinister dark magic on their hearts. That is the truth, no matter how much Atheists laugh at it, no matter what people try to do away with reality,  and the league of witches is increasing and they rule humanity behind the scences, female sorcerers are the top commanders of the Satanic force as far as humans go, whence the dark night of passion rules humanity as opposed to the bright day of Taha.

The seher on the Quran like other sehers on other revelations, keeps people from reciting it's clear recitation, it's clear flow, it's bright signs.

Ahlulbayt on the other hand, break the locks and are the refuge from the darkness and evil, and the knots blown into by the league of female sorcerers.

While Satanic men like to outwardly rule and be the chosen ones by these female sorcerers by which they get others to incline to them,  it is the Shayateen and the sorcery that truly rule when false kings are taken as kings, and when false rulers are taken as rulers.

Whether it be that of attraction or fear, it is a dark evil on the hearts, when people forget the True King who gives his authority to who he pleases.

The family of the reminder, are all instances of the reminder, if you believe the Quran is the true leader, than surely it's the family of the reminder that are the true leaders.

[GreatChineseFall]

Link, please don't divert from the topic. We have argued this before about chosen families and I dont think we will agree on this. In any case, that is not what this topic is about.

My question is simple: Let's say prophets can have chosen families as you claim (again I am not going to discuss this) that only include a specific number of individuals and let's say our Prophet(s.a.w.s.) also had a chosen family, how does that prohibit him from talking about his "general" or normal family? If it doesn't, how come there are none to be found in Sunni literature, because every time I think I found one, you say "No, that's about his chosen family not his normal family"?

[Link]

It doesn't prohibit him, but generally, he will talk about chosen family, while only when the context is clearly about his normal family, will he mention them as that.

That is because one of the things he is supposed to manifest is the who the chosen family is and what they are. Even though Quran does the best job of that, he expounds and emphasizes on what is in Quran.

So I would go unless content or context shows it to be about normal family, it is chosen family that must be assumed.

[GreatChineseFall]

It doesn't prohibit him, but generally, he will talk about chosen family, while only when the context is clearly about his normal family, will he mention them as that.

That is because one of the things he is supposed to manifest is the who the chosen family is and what they are. Even though Quran does the best job of that, he expounds and emphasizes on what is in Quran.

So I would go unless content or context shows it to be about normal family, it is chosen family that must be assumed.

That still leaves a question open. If you claim that al Thaqalayn was about a specific number of individuals, if you claim that Allah's wish to putify people was regarding a specific number of individuals, if you claim that khums is for a specific number of individuals(even though even Bani Ummayah sent Uthman ibn Affan to ask for their share), if al Mahdi is prophecised to be from a specific number of individuals etc. etc. .. then I wonder when did the Prophet(s.a.w.s.) ever speak about his general family? I find it suspicious that the Prophet never spoke about his family according to Shia's.

I don't mind so much you claiming that the majority of narrations will be about a chosen family, the problem is that there are virtually no narrations about his general family.

By the way, I find it interesting that you admit that you will automatically assume the Prophet is talking about a specific number of individuals UNTIL evidence is provided that it is his general family. I can't imagine what is more biased than this.

[Link]

The Quran and the explanation which is the Sunnah is about guidance.

When it talks about the family of Abraham, it is talking about a concept related to guiding humanity.

When we bless the family of Mohammad in Salah, it is about recognizing guidance and loving and honouring those who God has chosen for the task of our guidance.

It is very clear. You should assume Prophet is talking the concept that is related to guidance as opposed to not, unless, contexts shows otherwise.

That is because Quran emphasized on chosen families throughout Quran and emphasizes on those houses he has permitted to be raised and his named remembered therein.

[GreatChineseFall]

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