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Who are the 12 Caliphs

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Shia_student

Re: Who are the 12 Caliphs
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2015, 10:43:54 PM »
What the Prophet was saying is this, the affairs of the people will continue to be conducted well AS LONG AS they are governed by twelve men...

It was made "conditional" but the condition was NOT met, because the ones in view didn't govern but the those who were appointed by men.

However, I have made it clear, the Shia concept will follow. I am trying to make sense out of the Sunni concept.

I did quote Farid's reply and responded to him. Let's see what he had to say.

Aba AbdAllah

Re: Who are the 12 Caliphs
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2015, 11:20:15 PM »
Your interpretation is incorrect. Here are other versions which proves you wrong.

 It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say: Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs. Then the Prophet (ﷺ) said something which I could not understand. I asked my father: What did he say? He said: He has said that all of them (twelve Caliphs) will be from the Quraish. [Sahih Muslim, Book 20, Hadith 4480]

 It has been reported on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said: I went with my father to the Messenger of Allah (may peeace be upon him) and I heard him say: This religion would continue to remain powerful and dominant until there have been twelve Caliphs. Then he added something which I couldn't catch on account of the noise of the people. I asked my father: What did he say? My father said: He has said that all of them will be from the Quraish.[Sahih Muslim 1821]

 It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura that the Prophet (ﷺ) said:This order will continue to be dominant until there have been twelve Caliphs. The narrator says: Then he said something which I could not understand, and I said to my father: What did he say? My father told me that he said that all of them (Caliphs) would be from the Quraish.[sah muslim]

Also the hadeeth about the time period of the rightly guided caliphate being thirty(30) years, disapproves your interpretation. Ofcourse you might jump to say that these traditions are contradictory, but that is not the case, its not the hadeeth but rather its your misinterpretation which is contradictory.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 11:25:29 PM by Aba AbdAllah »

Al Dukhan

Re: Who are the 12 Caliphs
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2015, 01:06:34 PM »
^As i always used to say, following 12 caliphs=imams are not our usool ad'deen ! It doesnt matters to ahal al'sunnah.

Farid

Re: Who are the 12 Caliphs
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2015, 01:31:59 PM »
@ Shia_Student:

Brother Aba Abdullah has presented you with the majority of the narrations and their wordings and they do not include what you have quoted.

It seems that you are quoting the one that says:

لا يزال أمر الناس ماضيا ما وليهم اثنا عشر خليفة

This narration is not explicit that it is a conditional requirement. It can be interpreted to be conditional and unconditional.

The other ones are clear it is unconditional. Thus, the correct interpretation is that it is unconditional.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 01:41:02 PM by Farid »

Hani

Re: Who are the 12 Caliphs
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2015, 09:56:07 PM »
It seems some faulty or inaccurate translations may contribute to the confusion of people.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Aba AbdAllah

Re: Who are the 12 Caliphs
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2015, 03:37:40 PM »
The following hadeeth also proves, that the prophesy was UNCONDITIONAL.


‏"‏ لاَ يَزَالُ الدِّينُ قَائِمًا حَتَّى تَقُومَ السَّاعَةُ أَوْ يَكُونَ عَلَيْكُمُ اثْنَا عَشَرَ خَلِيفَةً كُلُّهُمْ مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ ‏"

The Islamic religion will continue until the Hour has been established, or you have been ruled over by twelve Caliphs, all of them being from the Quraish.

If people were supposedly not ruled by twelve caliphs as you claim to be, then that doesnt mean Islamic religion discontinued. Which proves that it was unconditional.

And as i said earlier, this fits in with the hadeeth about the different ruling systems that will occur over the Ummah, starting with the Caliphate on Manhaj Nabuwwah, then again it returns back with Manhaj Nabuwwah.



تكون النبوة فيكم ما شاء الله أن تكون ، ثم يرفعها الله إذا شاء أن يرفعها ، ثم تكون خلافة على منهاج النبوة ، فتكون ما شاء الله أن تكون ، ثم يرفعها الله إذا شاء أن يرفعها ، ثم تكون ملكا عاضا ، فيكون ما شاء الله أن تكون ، ثم يرفعها الله إذا شاء أن يرفعها ، ثم يكون ملكا جبريا ، فتكون ما شاء الله أن تكون ، ثم يرفعها إذا شاء أن يرفعها ، ثم تكون خلافة على منهاج النبوة ، ثم سكت

The Prophethood will remain amongst you for as long as Allaah wills it to be. Then Allaah will raise it when He wills to raise it. Then there will be the khilaafah upon the Prophetic methodology. And it will last for as long as Allaah wills it to last. Then Allaah will raise it when He wills to raise it. Then there will be biting kingship, and it will remain for as long as Allaah wills it to remain. Then Allaah will raise it when He wills to raise it. Then there will be tyrannical (forceful) kingship and it will remain for as long as Allaah wills it to remain. Then He will raise it when He wills to raise it. Then there will be a khilaafah upon the Prophetic methodology. Then he (the Prophet) was silent.Reported by Ahmad and Abu Dawud. Silsilah as-Saheehah of Imaam al-Albani (1/34 no. 5) and it is Saheeh

Aba AbdAllah

Re: Who are the 12 Caliphs
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2015, 01:03:25 PM »

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

“Whoever thinks that these twelve are the ones who the Raafidis believe are their imams is utterly ignorant, for none of them carried a sword except ‘Ali ibn Abi Taalib. All the rest of the imams, apart from ‘Ali, never carried a sword, especially the Awaited One (al-Muntazar – the last imam). Rather he, according to those who believe in his imamate, is either scared and helpless or on the run, hiding for more than four hundred years.

This hidden one never guided anyone who had gone astray, he never enjoined any good, forbade any evil or supported any oppressed person; he never gave a fatwa concerning any issue, he never gave a ruling and it is not known that he even existed at all!

What benefit did he offer, even if he did exist, let alone Islam prevailing because of him?

Moreover, the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) stated that Islam would remain strong and this ummah would remain in good shape until there had been twelve caliphs. If what is meant thereby is these twelve imams, the last of whom is al-Muntazar, who supposedly exists now, until he appears to them, as they believe, then Islam should still have been strong during the Umayyad and ‘Abbasid periods, and it should have prevailed when the disbelievers emerged in the East and the West (i.e., the Mongols and the Crusaders) and did what they did to the Muslims, which would take too long to describe here. Islam should have been still prevailing until today, and this is something other than what the hadeeth indicates.

Moreover, Islam – according to the Imami Shi‘ah – is what they are following, and they are the most humiliated sect of the ummah. There are no followers of whims and desires who are more lowly than the Raafidis; no group is more concealing of their beliefs than them or more assidious in practicing taqiyyah (dissimulation). They claim to be followers of the twelve imams, yet they are the most humiliated. What support of Islam was achieved by these twelve, as they claim? Many of the Jews, when they became Muslim, became Shi‘ah, because they read in the Torah mention of twelve, so they think that these are the ones. But that is not the case; rather these twelve (in the hadeeth) are the men of Quraysh who took positions of leadership and caliphate in the ummah; at their time Islam was strong, and this is well known. End quote.

Minhaaj as-Sunnah, 8/173-174

 

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