TwelverShia.net Forum

Who are the 12 Caliphs

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

shiaali

Who are the 12 Caliphs
« on: July 27, 2015, 02:13:59 AM »
http://twelvershia.net/2015/05/16/who-are-the-twelve-caliphs-shia-view/

According to sunni, from 12 imam only 2 were caliphs
According to us, from 12 imam all of them were caliphs

According to sunni, the 1st caliph was Abu Bakr. The differences come from different definition. It's impossible to agree on this unless we have the same definition.

Aba AbdAllah

Re: Who are the 12 Caliphs
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2015, 05:49:38 AM »
As per Sunni, NONE of the 12 Imams were an Imam, as per the Shi'ee definition of Imam.

Hani

Re: Who are the 12 Caliphs
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2015, 07:51:04 AM »
The narration says during the rule of 12 chiefs, all agree that only the first 2 of your leaders were chiefs that ruled.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

shiaali

Re: Who are the 12 Caliphs
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2015, 06:28:24 AM »
Shia do not define caliph as leader or head of government. So according to us, 12 imams are caliphs even when most did not lead Islamic nation.

Farid

Re: Who are the 12 Caliphs
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2015, 07:47:48 AM »
The narration is talking about the izza (greatness) of the Islamic Empire.

We ask Shias, according to the hadith, the Islamic empire will be great until the passing of twelve caliphs. Do Shias believe this? It seems like Shias believe that the Empire was always in an inferior state of weakness since the Imam is always afraid and hiding.

Ibn Yahya

Re: Who are the 12 Caliphs
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2015, 09:35:32 AM »
http://twelvershia.net/2015/05/16/who-are-the-twelve-caliphs-shia-view/

According to sunni, from 12 imam only 2 were caliphs
According to us, from 12 imam all of them were caliphs

According to sunni, the 1st caliph was Abu Bakr. The differences come from different definition. It's impossible to agree on this unless we have the same definition.

Ok brother respectively why don't we actually look at what Khalifah means. Khalifah means something like a Steward or deputy I believe. And a Khalifah must have what? Khilafah. So the real debat is over what is Khilafah. Khilafah or rather al-Khilafah is a political entity. It is Allah 'Aza wa Jal's political authority on this earth. If they don't meet the standards of what one should be like then so be it. They still have Khilafah.

Arabismo

Re: Who are the 12 Caliphs
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2015, 06:15:22 PM »
I heard the Messenger of Allah say: The affairs of the people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by twelve men. Then the Holy Prophet said words which were obscure to me. I asked my father: What did the Messenger of Allah say? He said: All of the (twelve men) will be from the Quraysh Sahih Muslim, Book 20 Hadith #4478

How exactly is the Hiding 12th Imam governing right now?
An ant from the valley of the ants possesses more intellect than a Rafidhi - Fakhr Al-Din Razi

Rationalist

Re: Who are the 12 Caliphs
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2015, 05:07:07 AM »
Again ahadith is not a mutawatir. Many Muslims do not believe in Imam Mahdi (as) or the return of  Prophet Isa (as). Likewise this belief of the 12 Calipahs is not a requirement in Islam.


Al Dukhan

Re: Who are the 12 Caliphs
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2015, 06:54:23 PM »
Not usool al'deen for Ahl al'sunnah !

Ibn Yahya

Re: Who are the 12 Caliphs
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2015, 09:22:28 PM »
The affairs of the people will continue to be conducted (well)

But according to tashayyu' the people were full of Apostates and tyrants lol

Shia_student

Re: Who are the 12 Caliphs
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2015, 10:53:40 PM »
@Farid:

The narration is talking about the izza (greatness) of the Islamic Empire.

We ask Shias, according to the hadith, the Islamic empire will be great until the passing of twelve caliphs. Do Shias believe this?

Was the empire great with what the 5th Khalifa Yazid and his army did at Karbala and battle of al-Harrah?

Can you highlight the "greatness" for us pls?





Furkan

Re: Who are the 12 Caliphs
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2015, 01:51:37 AM »
Firstly you should be the one to answer the question:

"was the islamic empire great under the rulership of your twelve imams?"

As you can see the hadith is not applicable on imamate since most of your imams weren't in control of an islamic empire.
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Abu Ammar

Re: Who are the 12 Caliphs
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2015, 04:57:40 AM »
1) If Allah had destined 12 Imams, then he had destined them to be oppressed since the last one (Al-Mahdi) had to flee due to the oppression and as a consequence, we are left with 12

2) Therefore had they not been oppressed, then there would have been more than 12

So the number is 12 because the Imams were oppressed [i.e. people failed to recognise the Imams rulership and the Mahdi fled; as a result of this consequence, there are only 12]

How can the Prophet (Peace & blessings be upon him) tell us about the right of rulership of this number of men, if the number itself is a testimony of the failure of this fulfillment? The number is 12 as a result of people not taking them as leaders, otherwise there would've been more than 12.

Given scenario 2) is very possible, this goes against the Shi'ite narrative of the Hadith of the 12 Khulufaa'. This is because the Prophet (Peace & blessings be upon him) conveyed this hadith with the hope that most, if not, all will listen and take the Imams as rulers. So had the people truly adhered to what the Prophet said (or meant), then given scenario 2), there would be more than 12.

In other words; had the people truly listened to the Prophet (Peace & blessings be upon him) with regards to this matter, then this prophecy would not have been fulfilled [i.e., there would be more than 12]

That's like telling a doctor to cure the disease that has already killed the patient.
How can you be told to something, in which the definite result in the end, is the result of you not doing it?
(in this case, taking all the Imams as rulers)

The Shi'i narrative comes with a bag of contradictions and shuns the Qadr of Allah inevitably

[Note: this I've posted this same reply a while ago]
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 05:06:53 AM by Abu Ammar »
لا تعتقد دين الروافض إنهم أهل المحال وحزبة الشيطان

'Do not Believe [in] the religion of the Rawafidh, for they are people of distortion and the party of Satan'

Nooniyah Al-Qahtani

Hani

Re: Who are the 12 Caliphs
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2015, 10:14:16 AM »
@Farid:

The narration is talking about the izza (greatness) of the Islamic Empire.

We ask Shias, according to the hadith, the Islamic empire will be great until the passing of twelve caliphs. Do Shias believe this?

Was the empire great with what the 5th Khalifa Yazid and his army did at Karbala and battle of al-Harrah?

Can you highlight the "greatness" for us pls?






The "greatness" in the Hadith is either referring to the political condition or religious condition,

If you're talking politically, then a rich unbeatable empire streching all the way to china and spain is considered great. I don't know any other definition of great. Unless u think a failed state like Iran is great, heck Iranians are fleeing that miserbale country.

And if you interpret greatness to mean religious greatness, then the most pious and god fearing generations lived in those times, the innovations were so little and the best scholars were alive and plentiful, people reflected a true image of Islam unlike our days. So that is religious greatness.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Shia_student

Re: Who are the 12 Caliphs
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2015, 12:02:35 PM »
@Hani:

"The "greatness" in the Hadith is either referring to the political condition or religious condition"

The Hadith says, Islam will be dominant until the 12 Khalifas...

The Hadith is most likely referring to the religious condition...

Even if it was talking about a political situation then I assert, neither of it had any connection with Islam during the rule of Yazid. The religion went downhill thereafter...

I don't know how you guys could be proud his rule when that tyrant's army raped the women of Madina and many illegitimate kids were born, regardless what took place at Karbala...

If you see that as a victory, then may Allah guide you!

Anyhow, I'll wait to see what Farid has to say.

Shia_student

Re: Who are the 12 Caliphs
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2015, 12:07:04 PM »
So I don't see Islam being dominant at the time of Yazid's rule or after him, I see the Khalifas being dominant over Islam and its laws and the Muslims, for it was they who manipulated the religion according to their wish and desires!

Shia_student

Re: Who are the 12 Caliphs
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2015, 12:14:49 PM »
@Hani:

"And if you interpret greatness to mean religious greatness, then the most pious and god fearing generations lived in those times, the innovations were so little and the best scholars..."

The Prophet linked greatness in connection with the Khalifas...

So talk about the piety of Yazid  and the succeeding Khalifas to complete the number 12...

Can give you prove their greatness in that sense?

Abu Ammar

Re: Who are the 12 Caliphs
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2015, 04:10:45 PM »
Salam Akhi Shia_student

The Sunnis have two main opinions about this hadith

Opinion 1:
As brothers have said in this thread, the Islamic Ummah will become a great empire at the reign of these 12 men who will come immediately after the death of the Prophet (peace & blessings be upon him), regardless how the men were as individuals, i.e. the hadith isn't a praise to those who have ruled. The men who ruled the state during this time were:

1. Abu Bakr Al Sadeeq
2. Omar ibn Khattab
3. Uthman Ibn Uthman
4. Ali Ibn Abu Talib
5. Hassan Ibn Ali
6. Muawiya Ibn Abi Sufyan
7. Yazid Ibn Muawiya
8. Muawiya Ibn Yazid
9. Marwan Ibn Al Hakam
10. Abd Al Malik Ibn Marwan
11. Al Waleed Ibn Abd Al Malik
12. Sulayman Ibn Abd Al Malik

The Islamic Empire expanded into vast territories and the sciences and the arts flourished during this time. Also the emergence of the greatest muslim scholars. Hence the greatness of the Ummah.

Opinion 2:
The second opinion is that this hadith is a praise for the twelve who ruled and were righteous. The list of these indiviuals are usually predictions and is not usually the consecutive case as above. There is also a difference of opinion on who the 12 might be, some opinions saying the list still isn't complete (i.e. there are more just rulers to come).

However, as strange as the Sunni opinion sounds to you - It is not as absurd as the Shi'i view of the hadith:

Problems with the Shi'i view
1. It's quite rich for you to claim that the 12th Imam is living for a very very long time - it seems as though you make this claim to keep the number in which you can claim the legitimacy of your interpretation of the Hadith. We clearly see a certain mindset; A group that fails to acknowledge the absence of their own leader and conclude that he is not dead in order to keep the validity of their own sect or maybe they cannot accept that he died to remove any sort of despair.

I would like to stress that Ghaiba is NOT exclusive to Twelver Shi'ism; Shi'ite sects before them believed in it such as:

-Waqifites; believe in the occultation (ghaiba) of Imam Musa Al Kadhum
-Tawussite; believe in the occultation of Imam Ja'far Al Sadiq
-Some Kaysanites; believe Muhammad ibn Al Hanafiyyah is in occultation

2. There were claims in the past by certain sects in the past by those who asserted that they had the '12 great rulers' - so here's how it goes:

A sect picks 12 individuals, assigns greatness to them, and thus make their claim of being the 'correct sect'.
Very easy thing to do for any sect.

Have you noticed how Sunnis don't use this hadith to prove that their sect is the correct one?

Wasalam akhi
لا تعتقد دين الروافض إنهم أهل المحال وحزبة الشيطان

'Do not Believe [in] the religion of the Rawafidh, for they are people of distortion and the party of Satan'

Nooniyah Al-Qahtani

Shia_student

Re: Who are the 12 Caliphs
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2015, 05:29:52 PM »
@ Abu Ammar

Wa Alaikum Salaam wrwb.

We will talk about the Shia concept later on. I want to be clear on the Sunni side first.

You said:

" ...regardless how the men were as individuals, i.e. the hadith isn't a praise to those who have ruled..."

Here is another Hadith:

It has been reported on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said:

I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say: The affairs of the people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by twelve men. Then the Prophet (ﷺ) said words which were obscure to me. I asked my father: What did the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say? He said: All of the (twelve men) will be from the Quraish.

The affairs of the people were NOT conducted well during the time of Yazid and thereafter...

Are you saying that the event of Karabala and al-Harrah were conducted well and in the light of the Islamic spirit?

Therefore, the Ahadith collectively cannot refer to Muawiya, Yazid and his successors.


Aba AbdAllah

Re: Who are the 12 Caliphs
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2015, 10:32:48 PM »
How are the affairs of the people conducted well in the times of Shia Imams?

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
3 Replies
845 Views
Last post October 19, 2015, 06:14:25 AM
by Arabismo
21 Replies
2529 Views
Last post August 05, 2016, 07:53:17 AM
by Solomon
7 Replies
341 Views
Last post June 11, 2017, 07:11:44 AM
by Hani
9 Replies
449 Views
Last post August 25, 2017, 04:37:21 PM
by Link