TwelverShia.net Forum
Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Imamah-Ghaybah => Topic started by: shiaali on July 27, 2015, 02:13:59 AM
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http://twelvershia.net/2015/05/16/who-are-the-twelve-caliphs-shia-view/
According to sunni, from 12 imam only 2 were caliphs
According to us, from 12 imam all of them were caliphs
According to sunni, the 1st caliph was Abu Bakr. The differences come from different definition. It's impossible to agree on this unless we have the same definition.
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As per Sunni, NONE of the 12 Imams were an Imam, as per the Shi'ee definition of Imam.
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The narration says during the rule of 12 chiefs, all agree that only the first 2 of your leaders were chiefs that ruled.
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Shia do not define caliph as leader or head of government. So according to us, 12 imams are caliphs even when most did not lead Islamic nation.
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The narration is talking about the izza (greatness) of the Islamic Empire.
We ask Shias, according to the hadith, the Islamic empire will be great until the passing of twelve caliphs. Do Shias believe this? It seems like Shias believe that the Empire was always in an inferior state of weakness since the Imam is always afraid and hiding.
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http://twelvershia.net/2015/05/16/who-are-the-twelve-caliphs-shia-view/
According to sunni, from 12 imam only 2 were caliphs
According to us, from 12 imam all of them were caliphs
According to sunni, the 1st caliph was Abu Bakr. The differences come from different definition. It's impossible to agree on this unless we have the same definition.
Ok brother respectively why don't we actually look at what Khalifah means. Khalifah means something like a Steward or deputy I believe. And a Khalifah must have what? Khilafah. So the real debat is over what is Khilafah. Khilafah or rather al-Khilafah is a political entity. It is Allah 'Aza wa Jal's political authority on this earth. If they don't meet the standards of what one should be like then so be it. They still have Khilafah.
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I heard the Messenger of Allah say: The affairs of the people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by twelve men. Then the Holy Prophet said words which were obscure to me. I asked my father: What did the Messenger of Allah say? He said: All of the (twelve men) will be from the Quraysh Sahih Muslim, Book 20 Hadith #4478
How exactly is the Hiding 12th Imam governing right now?
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Again ahadith is not a mutawatir. Many Muslims do not believe in Imam Mahdi (as) or the return of Prophet Isa (as). Likewise this belief of the 12 Calipahs is not a requirement in Islam.
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Not usool al'deen for Ahl al'sunnah !
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The affairs of the people will continue to be conducted (well)
But according to tashayyu' the people were full of Apostates and tyrants lol
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@Farid:
The narration is talking about the izza (greatness) of the Islamic Empire.
We ask Shias, according to the hadith, the Islamic empire will be great until the passing of twelve caliphs. Do Shias believe this?
Was the empire great with what the 5th Khalifa Yazid and his army did at Karbala and battle of al-Harrah?
Can you highlight the "greatness" for us pls?
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Firstly you should be the one to answer the question:
"was the islamic empire great under the rulership of your twelve imams?"
As you can see the hadith is not applicable on imamate since most of your imams weren't in control of an islamic empire.
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1) If Allah had destined 12 Imams, then he had destined them to be oppressed since the last one (Al-Mahdi) had to flee due to the oppression and as a consequence, we are left with 12
2) Therefore had they not been oppressed, then there would have been more than 12
So the number is 12 because the Imams were oppressed [i.e. people failed to recognise the Imams rulership and the Mahdi fled; as a result of this consequence, there are only 12]
How can the Prophet (Peace & blessings be upon him) tell us about the right of rulership of this number of men, if the number itself is a testimony of the failure of this fulfillment? The number is 12 as a result of people not taking them as leaders, otherwise there would've been more than 12.
Given scenario 2) is very possible, this goes against the Shi'ite narrative of the Hadith of the 12 Khulufaa'. This is because the Prophet (Peace & blessings be upon him) conveyed this hadith with the hope that most, if not, all will listen and take the Imams as rulers. So had the people truly adhered to what the Prophet said (or meant), then given scenario 2), there would be more than 12.
In other words; had the people truly listened to the Prophet (Peace & blessings be upon him) with regards to this matter, then this prophecy would not have been fulfilled [i.e., there would be more than 12]
That's like telling a doctor to cure the disease that has already killed the patient.
How can you be told to something, in which the definite result in the end, is the result of you not doing it?
(in this case, taking all the Imams as rulers)
The Shi'i narrative comes with a bag of contradictions and shuns the Qadr of Allah inevitably
[Note: this I've posted this same reply a while ago]
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@Farid:
The narration is talking about the izza (greatness) of the Islamic Empire.
We ask Shias, according to the hadith, the Islamic empire will be great until the passing of twelve caliphs. Do Shias believe this?
Was the empire great with what the 5th Khalifa Yazid and his army did at Karbala and battle of al-Harrah?
Can you highlight the "greatness" for us pls?
The "greatness" in the Hadith is either referring to the political condition or religious condition,
If you're talking politically, then a rich unbeatable empire streching all the way to china and spain is considered great. I don't know any other definition of great. Unless u think a failed state like Iran is great, heck Iranians are fleeing that miserbale country.
And if you interpret greatness to mean religious greatness, then the most pious and god fearing generations lived in those times, the innovations were so little and the best scholars were alive and plentiful, people reflected a true image of Islam unlike our days. So that is religious greatness.
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@Hani:
"The "greatness" in the Hadith is either referring to the political condition or religious condition"
The Hadith says, Islam will be dominant until the 12 Khalifas...
The Hadith is most likely referring to the religious condition...
Even if it was talking about a political situation then I assert, neither of it had any connection with Islam during the rule of Yazid. The religion went downhill thereafter...
I don't know how you guys could be proud his rule when that tyrant's army raped the women of Madina and many illegitimate kids were born, regardless what took place at Karbala...
If you see that as a victory, then may Allah guide you!
Anyhow, I'll wait to see what Farid has to say.
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So I don't see Islam being dominant at the time of Yazid's rule or after him, I see the Khalifas being dominant over Islam and its laws and the Muslims, for it was they who manipulated the religion according to their wish and desires!
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@Hani:
"And if you interpret greatness to mean religious greatness, then the most pious and god fearing generations lived in those times, the innovations were so little and the best scholars..."
The Prophet linked greatness in connection with the Khalifas...
So talk about the piety of Yazid and the succeeding Khalifas to complete the number 12...
Can give you prove their greatness in that sense?
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Salam Akhi Shia_student
The Sunnis have two main opinions about this hadith
Opinion 1:
As brothers have said in this thread, the Islamic Ummah will become a great empire at the reign of these 12 men who will come immediately after the death of the Prophet (peace & blessings be upon him), regardless how the men were as individuals, i.e. the hadith isn't a praise to those who have ruled. The men who ruled the state during this time were:
1. Abu Bakr Al Sadeeq
2. Omar ibn Khattab
3. Uthman Ibn Uthman
4. Ali Ibn Abu Talib
5. Hassan Ibn Ali
6. Muawiya Ibn Abi Sufyan
7. Yazid Ibn Muawiya
8. Muawiya Ibn Yazid
9. Marwan Ibn Al Hakam
10. Abd Al Malik Ibn Marwan
11. Al Waleed Ibn Abd Al Malik
12. Sulayman Ibn Abd Al Malik
The Islamic Empire expanded into vast territories and the sciences and the arts flourished during this time. Also the emergence of the greatest muslim scholars. Hence the greatness of the Ummah.
Opinion 2:
The second opinion is that this hadith is a praise for the twelve who ruled and were righteous. The list of these indiviuals are usually predictions and is not usually the consecutive case as above. There is also a difference of opinion on who the 12 might be, some opinions saying the list still isn't complete (i.e. there are more just rulers to come).
However, as strange as the Sunni opinion sounds to you - It is not as absurd as the Shi'i view of the hadith:
Problems with the Shi'i view
1. It's quite rich for you to claim that the 12th Imam is living for a very very long time - it seems as though you make this claim to keep the number in which you can claim the legitimacy of your interpretation of the Hadith. We clearly see a certain mindset; A group that fails to acknowledge the absence of their own leader and conclude that he is not dead in order to keep the validity of their own sect or maybe they cannot accept that he died to remove any sort of despair.
I would like to stress that Ghaiba is NOT exclusive to Twelver Shi'ism; Shi'ite sects before them believed in it such as:
-Waqifites; believe in the occultation (ghaiba) of Imam Musa Al Kadhum
-Tawussite; believe in the occultation of Imam Ja'far Al Sadiq
-Some Kaysanites; believe Muhammad ibn Al Hanafiyyah is in occultation
2. There were claims in the past by certain sects in the past by those who asserted that they had the '12 great rulers' - so here's how it goes:
A sect picks 12 individuals, assigns greatness to them, and thus make their claim of being the 'correct sect'.
Very easy thing to do for any sect.
Have you noticed how Sunnis don't use this hadith to prove that their sect is the correct one?
Wasalam akhi
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@ Abu Ammar
Wa Alaikum Salaam wrwb.
We will talk about the Shia concept later on. I want to be clear on the Sunni side first.
You said:
" ...regardless how the men were as individuals, i.e. the hadith isn't a praise to those who have ruled..."
Here is another Hadith:
It has been reported on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said:
I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say: The affairs of the people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by twelve men. Then the Prophet (ﷺ) said words which were obscure to me. I asked my father: What did the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say? He said: All of the (twelve men) will be from the Quraish.
The affairs of the people were NOT conducted well during the time of Yazid and thereafter...
Are you saying that the event of Karabala and al-Harrah were conducted well and in the light of the Islamic spirit?
Therefore, the Ahadith collectively cannot refer to Muawiya, Yazid and his successors.
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How are the affairs of the people conducted well in the times of Shia Imams?
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What the Prophet was saying is this, the affairs of the people will continue to be conducted well AS LONG AS they are governed by twelve men...
It was made "conditional" but the condition was NOT met, because the ones in view didn't govern but the those who were appointed by men.
However, I have made it clear, the Shia concept will follow. I am trying to make sense out of the Sunni concept.
I did quote Farid's reply and responded to him. Let's see what he had to say.
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Your interpretation is incorrect. Here are other versions which proves you wrong.
It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say: Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs. Then the Prophet (ﷺ) said something which I could not understand. I asked my father: What did he say? He said: He has said that all of them (twelve Caliphs) will be from the Quraish. [Sahih Muslim, Book 20, Hadith 4480]
It has been reported on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said: I went with my father to the Messenger of Allah (may peeace be upon him) and I heard him say: This religion would continue to remain powerful and dominant until there have been twelve Caliphs. Then he added something which I couldn't catch on account of the noise of the people. I asked my father: What did he say? My father said: He has said that all of them will be from the Quraish.[Sahih Muslim 1821]
It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura that the Prophet (ﷺ) said:This order will continue to be dominant until there have been twelve Caliphs. The narrator says: Then he said something which I could not understand, and I said to my father: What did he say? My father told me that he said that all of them (Caliphs) would be from the Quraish.[sah muslim]
Also the hadeeth about the time period of the rightly guided caliphate being thirty(30) years, disapproves your interpretation. Ofcourse you might jump to say that these traditions are contradictory, but that is not the case, its not the hadeeth but rather its your misinterpretation which is contradictory.
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^As i always used to say, following 12 caliphs=imams are not our usool ad'deen ! It doesnt matters to ahal al'sunnah.
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@ Shia_Student:
Brother Aba Abdullah has presented you with the majority of the narrations and their wordings and they do not include what you have quoted.
It seems that you are quoting the one that says:
لا يزال أمر الناس ماضيا ما وليهم اثنا عشر خليفة
This narration is not explicit that it is a conditional requirement. It can be interpreted to be conditional and unconditional.
The other ones are clear it is unconditional. Thus, the correct interpretation is that it is unconditional.
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It seems some faulty or inaccurate translations may contribute to the confusion of people.
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The following hadeeth also proves, that the prophesy was UNCONDITIONAL.
" لاَ يَزَالُ الدِّينُ قَائِمًا حَتَّى تَقُومَ السَّاعَةُ أَوْ يَكُونَ عَلَيْكُمُ اثْنَا عَشَرَ خَلِيفَةً كُلُّهُمْ مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ "
The Islamic religion will continue until the Hour has been established, or you have been ruled over by twelve Caliphs, all of them being from the Quraish.
If people were supposedly not ruled by twelve caliphs as you claim to be, then that doesnt mean Islamic religion discontinued. Which proves that it was unconditional.
And as i said earlier, this fits in with the hadeeth about the different ruling systems that will occur over the Ummah, starting with the Caliphate on Manhaj Nabuwwah, then again it returns back with Manhaj Nabuwwah.
تكون النبوة فيكم ما شاء الله أن تكون ، ثم يرفعها الله إذا شاء أن يرفعها ، ثم تكون خلافة على منهاج النبوة ، فتكون ما شاء الله أن تكون ، ثم يرفعها الله إذا شاء أن يرفعها ، ثم تكون ملكا عاضا ، فيكون ما شاء الله أن تكون ، ثم يرفعها الله إذا شاء أن يرفعها ، ثم يكون ملكا جبريا ، فتكون ما شاء الله أن تكون ، ثم يرفعها إذا شاء أن يرفعها ، ثم تكون خلافة على منهاج النبوة ، ثم سكت
The Prophethood will remain amongst you for as long as Allaah wills it to be. Then Allaah will raise it when He wills to raise it. Then there will be the khilaafah upon the Prophetic methodology. And it will last for as long as Allaah wills it to last. Then Allaah will raise it when He wills to raise it. Then there will be biting kingship, and it will remain for as long as Allaah wills it to remain. Then Allaah will raise it when He wills to raise it. Then there will be tyrannical (forceful) kingship and it will remain for as long as Allaah wills it to remain. Then He will raise it when He wills to raise it. Then there will be a khilaafah upon the Prophetic methodology. Then he (the Prophet) was silent.Reported by Ahmad and Abu Dawud. Silsilah as-Saheehah of Imaam al-Albani (1/34 no. 5) and it is Saheeh
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Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said:
“Whoever thinks that these twelve are the ones who the Raafidis believe are their imams is utterly ignorant, for none of them carried a sword except ‘Ali ibn Abi Taalib. All the rest of the imams, apart from ‘Ali, never carried a sword, especially the Awaited One (al-Muntazar – the last imam). Rather he, according to those who believe in his imamate, is either scared and helpless or on the run, hiding for more than four hundred years.
This hidden one never guided anyone who had gone astray, he never enjoined any good, forbade any evil or supported any oppressed person; he never gave a fatwa concerning any issue, he never gave a ruling and it is not known that he even existed at all!
What benefit did he offer, even if he did exist, let alone Islam prevailing because of him?
Moreover, the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) stated that Islam would remain strong and this ummah would remain in good shape until there had been twelve caliphs. If what is meant thereby is these twelve imams, the last of whom is al-Muntazar, who supposedly exists now, until he appears to them, as they believe, then Islam should still have been strong during the Umayyad and ‘Abbasid periods, and it should have prevailed when the disbelievers emerged in the East and the West (i.e., the Mongols and the Crusaders) and did what they did to the Muslims, which would take too long to describe here. Islam should have been still prevailing until today, and this is something other than what the hadeeth indicates.
Moreover, Islam – according to the Imami Shi‘ah – is what they are following, and they are the most humiliated sect of the ummah. There are no followers of whims and desires who are more lowly than the Raafidis; no group is more concealing of their beliefs than them or more assidious in practicing taqiyyah (dissimulation). They claim to be followers of the twelve imams, yet they are the most humiliated. What support of Islam was achieved by these twelve, as they claim? Many of the Jews, when they became Muslim, became Shi‘ah, because they read in the Torah mention of twelve, so they think that these are the ones. But that is not the case; rather these twelve (in the hadeeth) are the men of Quraysh who took positions of leadership and caliphate in the ummah; at their time Islam was strong, and this is well known. End quote.
Minhaaj as-Sunnah, 8/173-174