TwelverShia.net Forum
Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Imamah-Ghaybah => Topic started by: Abu Muhammad on May 08, 2016, 03:38:45 AM
-
Assalamualaikum,
This question has been playing in my head for quite some time. Could any shias in this forum (or anybody else) enlighten me who is Al-Mahdi's successoor? I have tried to search for it but couldn't find one. May be due to my limited resources.
As it is well documented in books of both Sunni and Shia, after his re-appearance and bring justice to the world, Al-Mahdi will die (in Shia, be killed) and the world won't go straight into Qiamah. And according to Shia, the world cannot be devoided of an imam at any time or else it will be destroyed. Therefore, there must be an Imam after him.
-
Assalamualaikum,
...As it is well documented in books of both Sunni and Shia, after his re-appearance and bring justice to the world, Al-Mahdi will die (in Shia, be killed) and the world won't go straight into Qiamah. And according to Shia, the world cannot be devoided of an imam at any time or else it will be destroyed. Therefore, there must be an Imam after him.
Walaikum-us Salaam,
From what I know its not Imam but Hujjat-ULLAH. The world cannot be devoid of any Hujjat-ULLAH whether Apparent or Hidden.
I thought after Imam Mehdi (a.s) is killed the world would end. If you have Shia narrations stating otherwise please do provide as it would increase my knowledge.
There are some people like Abdullah Hashem from HashemStudios promoting the concept of 12 Mahdis after 12 Imams by citing some narrations. I don't know the authenticity of those narrations so can't say much on this topic.
-
Walaikum-us Salaam,
From what I know its not Imam but Hujjat-ULLAH. The world cannot be devoid of any Hujjat-ULLAH whether Apparent or Hidden.
I thought after Imam Mehdi (a.s) is killed the world would end. If you have Shia narrations stating otherwise please do provide as it would increase my knowledge.
There are some people like Abdullah Hashem from HashemStudios promoting the concept of 12 Mahdis after 12 Imams by citing some narrations. I don't know the authenticity of those narrations so can't say much on this topic.
Also there is the concept of Rajah where the 12th Imam will resurrect the previous Imams.
Imam al-Sadiq said: “The first one who shall return to this world (at the time of al-Mahdi) is al-Husayn ibn ‘Ali, who rules until his eyebrow falls over his eyes due to his old age” (al-Bihar, v53, p46, Hadith #19 quoted from Muntakhab al-Basa’ir).
-
Assalamualaikum,
...As it is well documented in books of both Sunni and Shia, after his re-appearance and bring justice to the world, Al-Mahdi will die (in Shia, be killed) and the world won't go straight into Qiamah. And according to Shia, the world cannot be devoided of an imam at any time or else it will be destroyed. Therefore, there must be an Imam after him.
Walaikum-us Salaam,
From what I know its not Imam but Hujjat-ULLAH. The world cannot be devoid of any Hujjat-ULLAH whether Apparent or Hidden.
I thought after Imam Mehdi (a.s) is killed the world would end. If you have Shia narrations stating otherwise please do provide as it would increase my knowledge.
There are some people like Abdullah Hashem from HashemStudios promoting the concept of 12 Mahdis after 12 Imams by citing some narrations. I don't know the authenticity of those narrations so can't say much on this topic.
Can you show me this hujjah?
-
Can you show me this hujjah?
We Shias believe at present Imam Mehdi (a.s) is Hujjat-ULLAH and we can't see Imam Mehdi (a.s) now as he (a.s) is hidden by ALLAH (SWT).
Believing in Hidden Hujjat-ULLAH for me is like believing in Angels. Belief in Angels is part of my faith but when an atheist asks me to show him an angel then my reply is that I can't show him an angel as GOD has hidden Angels from our eyesight at present.
If atheist asks me why do I believe in something (i.e. angel) which I can't see and that something does not interfer or has affect on my daily life?
My reply to him would be because of Al-Quran (GOD'S Holy Book) in which Angels are mentioned I believe in Angels.
-
You wouldn't say that if you knew what the word "HujjatUllah" meant. Go ahead and believe he's hiding for millions of years, but don't belittle us by saying the hidden dude is God's divine proof and argument upon His creation. He can't be a proof or an argument if he's absent, a brick wall is more of a divine argument than he is at this point.
As for the ahtiest part, true the angels are hidden but mentioned in the Qur'an, your 12th leader However is hidden but not mentioned in the Qur'an. Also the angels can be hidden since they have no function that requires them to be visible, so the ahtiest won't bother you if you tell him the angels are existent but hidden. On the other hand, if you tell him "We have a divine guide and leader" then you tell him he's hidden. The ahtiest is going to laugh at you since that's equal to saying "We have a holy book that instructs us but is hidden and unavailable." We Muslims believe in a visible Prophet (saw) that came and taught for many years openly his message and then left us a visible book before he departed, that's called a solid belief. You guys believe that some guy who was born in a miraculous way without any signs of pregnancy on his mom, his birth was a secret and nobody witnessed it, he never made a public appearance and hid himself completely for a thousand years, that's a weak empty claim that anyone can in fact ... claim.
-
You wouldn't say that if you knew what the word "HujjatUllah" meant. Go ahead and believe he's hiding for millions of years, but don't belittle us by saying the hidden dude is God's divine proof and argument upon His creation. He can't be a proof or an argument if he's absent, a brick wall is more of a divine argument than he is at this point.
As for the ahtiest part, true the angels are hidden but mentioned in the Qur'an, your 12th leader However is hidden but not mentioned in the Qur'an. Also the angels can be hidden since they have no function that requires them to be visible, so the ahtiest won't bother you if you tell him the angels are existent but hidden. On the other hand, if you tell him "We have a divine guide and leader" then you tell him he's hidden. The ahtiest is going to laugh at you since that's equal to saying "We have a holy book that instructs us but is hidden and unavailable." We Muslims believe in a visible Prophet (saw) that came and taught for many years openly his message and then left us a visible book before he departed, that's called a solid belief. You guys believe that some guy who was born in a miraculous way without any signs of pregnancy on his mom, his birth was a secret and nobody witnessed it, he never made a public appearance and hid himself completely for a thousand years, that's a weak empty claim that anyone can in fact ... claim.
Not possible to say that no one has seen him (ajtf) because we have narrations in Al Irshad and also we have the dates in that book and the people that have seen him. After reading such details it would be upto to either accept them or deny them. The proof is there but, obviously there would be doubters.
-
You wouldn't say that if you knew what the word "HujjatUllah" meant. Go ahead and believe he's hiding for millions of years, but don't belittle us by saying the hidden dude is God's divine proof and argument upon His creation. He can't be a proof or an argument if he's absent, a brick wall is more of a divine argument than he is at this point.
As for the ahtiest part, true the angels are hidden but mentioned in the Qur'an, your 12th leader However is hidden but not mentioned in the Qur'an. Also the angels can be hidden since they have no function that requires them to be visible, so the ahtiest won't bother you if you tell him the angels are existent but hidden. On the other hand, if you tell him "We have a divine guide and leader" then you tell him he's hidden. The ahtiest is going to laugh at you since that's equal to saying "We have a holy book that instructs us but is hidden and unavailable." We Muslims believe in a visible Prophet (saw) that came and taught for many years openly his message and then left us a visible book before he departed, that's called a solid belief. You guys believe that some guy who was born in a miraculous way without any signs of pregnancy on his mom, his birth was a secret and nobody witnessed it, he never made a public appearance and hid himself completely for a thousand years, that's a weak empty claim that anyone can in fact ... claim.
Not possible to say that no one has seen him (ajtf) because we have narrations in Al Irshad and also we have the dates in that book and the people that have seen him. After reading such details it would be upto to either accept them or deny them. The proof is there but, obviously there would be doubters.
From al-Kafi,
عدة من أصحابنا، عن جعفر بن محمد، عن ابن فضال، عن الريان بن الصلت قال: سمعت أبا الحسن الرضا عليه السلام يقول – وسئل عن القائم – فقال: لا يرى جسمه، ولا يسمى اسمه
Imam al-Reda(as) when asked about al-Qaim, said: ‘His body will not be seen nor his name will be mentioned’. It is graded as Muwaththaq(reliable) by Majlisi.
Hasan b. Ahmad relates that he was with ‘Ali b. Muhammad Samarri some days before he died. A letter came from the Imam which he read for the people. The contents were as follows:
In the name of God. O ‘Ali b. Muhammad Samarri, may God reward your brethren in your death, which is going to take place in six days’ time. So take care of your affairs and do not appoint anyone in your place, since the complete occultation has taken place. I will not appear until God permits me to do so (may His name be exalted) and that will be after a long time and after the hearts become hard and the earth is filled with wickedness. In the near future there will be those among my followers who will claim to have seen me. Beware, those who claim this before the rise of Sufyani and the [hearing of the] voice from the sky are liars. (Bihar al-anwar, Vol. 51, p. 361).
When esteemed Shia Shaykh al-Radhy was asked about the incidents of scholars meeting Imam al-Mahdi(a). He replied that it is not possible to prove or disprove such incidents.
لا يمكن نفي أو إثبات الرؤية بمجرد الكلام
فلقد جاء في بعض الروايات ( من أدعى الرؤية فكذبوه) ، فقد يتشرف الإنسان بالإمام ولكنه لا يتكلم ، وقد لا يراه ويدعي الرؤية ولذلك يصعب الإثبات أو النفي .
موقع الهداية
مكتب سماحة العلامة الشيخ حسين الراضي
And according to Shia scholar Syed Fadhlallah these incidents are not proven as authentic/established.
س) هل علماء ائمة اهل البيت يشاهدون امام العصر و هل صح روايات مقابله محمد بحر العلوم لامام المهدي؟
بإسمه تعالى:
ج) لم يثبت عندنا ذلك، فإن مقتضى غيبة الإمام المهدي (عج) الكبرى هو عدم إلتقائه بأحد.
والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
مكتب الاستفتاءات لسماحة آية الله العظمى
السيد محمد حسين فضل الله
Shia Ayatullah Syed Fadhlallah doubts even the possibility of meeting Imam in ghayba al-Kubra. [Click this to see the screen shot of his answer].
So, it’s apparent that the view which you hold is a disputed one among Shias, and there doesn’t seem to be any authentic proof which could be established to support your opinion.
Taken from
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2012/06/16/analysis-of-the-shia-responses-for-the-questions-in-our-challenge/
Btw, if you are confident on this IMPORTANT issue related to belief, then I suggest that you quote those reports if you think they are authentic as per Shia standards. If you are not confident, then you should seriously ponder over your beliefs, because its the beliefs that will be questioned in the hereafter.
-
You wouldn't say that if you knew what the word "HujjatUllah" meant. Go ahead and believe he's hiding for millions of years, but don't belittle us by saying the hidden dude is God's divine proof and argument upon His creation. He can't be a proof or an argument if he's absent, a brick wall is more of a divine argument than he is at this point.
As for the ahtiest part, true the angels are hidden but mentioned in the Qur'an, your 12th leader However is hidden but not mentioned in the Qur'an. Also the angels can be hidden since they have no function that requires them to be visible, so the ahtiest won't bother you if you tell him the angels are existent but hidden. On the other hand, if you tell him "We have a divine guide and leader" then you tell him he's hidden. The ahtiest is going to laugh at you since that's equal to saying "We have a holy book that instructs us but is hidden and unavailable." We Muslims believe in a visible Prophet (saw) that came and taught for many years openly his message and then left us a visible book before he departed, that's called a solid belief. You guys believe that some guy who was born in a miraculous way without any signs of pregnancy on his mom, his birth was a secret and nobody witnessed it, he never made a public appearance and hid himself completely for a thousand years, that's a weak empty claim that anyone can in fact ... claim.
I am not forcing my beliefs or views on you.. You may believe what what you believe and I may believe what I believe. There are many things which Non-Muslims ask and from their point of view my belief as a Muslim seems fairy-tale and/or terribly misguided to them.
Before asking me about hidden divine leader atheist would ask about GOD.. atheists laugh at those who have belief in GOD whether Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus because they deny the Existence of GOD based on invisibility of GOD. When atheists don't believe in GOD why would they care about HIS divine leader?
Imam Mehdi (a.s) was seen by his (a.s) parents and very close people who were very few. Besides them no one has seen him (a.s) up to this day. I believe in Hidden Hujjat-ULLAH based on what our Imams (a.s) said. If you find it funny or fairytale then it is upto you. I don't find belief in Hidden Hujjat-ULLAH as funny or fairytale. Many of my beliefs are related to unseen matters:
01. Belief in GOD - Unseen i.e. I can't show anyone GOD nor has anyone seen GOD.
02. Belief in Angels - Unseen i.e. I can't show anyone Angels nor has anyone seen Angels besides Prophets (a.s)
03. Belief in Jannah - Unseen i.e. I can't show anyone Jannah nor has anyone seen Jannah besides Prophets (a.s)
04. Belief in Jahanum - Unseen i.e. I can't show anyone Jahanum nor has anyone seen Jahanum besides Prophets (a.s)
05. Resurrection of those in Graves.
06. Judgement Day
07. Our Deeds being Recorded and presented to us on Day of Judgement.
Besides these I also believe in existence of other beings based on Al-Quran e.g. Jinn and Satan. Satan has existence and always leads us to sin but can we show Atheists Satan and how he leads a person to sin?
Al-Quran is a Book from GOD which is used by us Muslims as tangible evidence to prove to Non-Muslims about the Existence of GOD and Prophethood of Mohammed (s.a.w.w).. but are Non-Muslims convinced?
Al-Quran is one Book which every Muslim whether Shia or Sunni believe is a apparent guide for Muslims from GOD yet Muslims themselves are divided into many sects. Why has Apparent Guide of Muslims (i.e. Al-Quran) not been able to stop the Muslims from differing from one another? Why are there Salafis, Deobandis, Brelwi, Wahabbis, Mutazillas, Ahl-e-Hadiths, etc in Ahlul Sunnah when all of them follow the Apparent Guide i.e. Al-Quran?
Then there are Quranists like followers of Rashid Khalifa and there are also Sufis. Even Khawarij Believe in ALLAH (SWT) and believe in Prophethood of Mohammed (s.a.w.w) and believe Al-Quran as their guide. Why couldn't Al-Quran the Apparent Guide had been able to save them from becoming Khawarij?
-
I have found this in one of the latest thread in Shiachat discussing post Al-Mahdi era (Thread title: Shia Marja Al Hairi: 12 Mahdis are Proofs of Allah - 30/04/2016). The argument for hujjatullah after Al-Mahdi, from the books of Shia, is either one of these:
1. They are from 12 Mahdis; or
2. They are from the previous imams by way of Raj'ah.
By the way, it is very interesting to see that both arguments have their own evidences from the books of Shia and how each hadith from both sides contradicting each other and both are sahih too. Even though a guy there tried to reconcile between the hadiths by saying that the raj'ah will happen after the reign of 12 mahdis, it brought another problem that you Shia have 24 infallibles now and not 12 (if true, additional proof that the sunni hadith of 12 caliphs is never about your 12 imams).
Ijtaba said:
"I thought after Imam Mehdi (a.s) is killed the world would end. If you have Shia narrations stating otherwise please do provide as it would increase my knowledge."
You should bring in evidences from your books rather than talking straight out of your head. If you have other narrations showing the world will go straight into Qiamah, please share with us. It will just complicate the matter more.
-
Ijtaba said:
"I don't find belief in Hidden Hujjat-ULLAH as funny or fairytale. Many of my beliefs are related to unseen matters"
What funny is that your many beliefs related to unseen have their evidences from Al-Quran but NOT your hidden hujjatullah as clearly explain by Bro Hani above. It is your utmost fundamental of religion but yet it is just based on mu'tazili's logic.
-
Can you show me this hujjah?
We Shias believe at present Imam Mehdi (a.s) is Hujjat-ULLAH and we can't see Imam Mehdi (a.s) now as he (a.s) is hidden by ALLAH (SWT).
Believing in Hidden Hujjat-ULLAH for me is like believing in Angels. Belief in Angels is part of my faith but when an atheist asks me to show him an angel then my reply is that I can't show him an angel as GOD has hidden Angels from our eyesight at present.
If atheist asks me why do I believe in something (i.e. angel) which I can't see and that something does not interfer or has affect on my daily life?
My reply to him would be because of Al-Quran (GOD'S Holy Book) in which Angels are mentioned I believe in Angels.
If there's a Hujjah but no access or way of seeing it then it entirely defeats the point of its existence.
-
You wouldn't say that if you knew what the word "HujjatUllah" meant. Go ahead and believe he's hiding for millions of years, but don't belittle us by saying the hidden dude is God's divine proof and argument upon His creation. He can't be a proof or an argument if he's absent, a brick wall is more of a divine argument than he is at this point.
As for the ahtiest part, true the angels are hidden but mentioned in the Qur'an, your 12th leader However is hidden but not mentioned in the Qur'an. Also the angels can be hidden since they have no function that requires them to be visible, so the ahtiest won't bother you if you tell him the angels are existent but hidden. On the other hand, if you tell him "We have a divine guide and leader" then you tell him he's hidden. The ahtiest is going to laugh at you since that's equal to saying "We have a holy book that instructs us but is hidden and unavailable." We Muslims believe in a visible Prophet (saw) that came and taught for many years openly his message and then left us a visible book before he departed, that's called a solid belief. You guys believe that some guy who was born in a miraculous way without any signs of pregnancy on his mom, his birth was a secret and nobody witnessed it, he never made a public appearance and hid himself completely for a thousand years, that's a weak empty claim that anyone can in fact ... claim.
Not possible to say that no one has seen him (ajtf) because we have narrations in Al Irshad and also we have the dates in that book and the people that have seen him. After reading such details it would be upto to either accept them or deny them. The proof is there but, obviously there would be doubters.
Whether he was even there in the first place is of no importance.
How about I put it to you like this. Lets pretend for the sake of argument that he is in fact in Ghaybah right now, lets also pretend that for the sake of argument he visits and is available to the true Shi'ah. Then hes a proof for people who already believe which uttetly defeats the purpose of there being a Hujjah in the first place.
-
@abu Muhammad, my asking you for sharing information on world not going into Qiyamah after the death of Imam Mehdi (a.s) was not by the way of challenging but to increase my own knowledge as you yourself said that it is documented in Sunni and Shia books.
I did not say world would go into Qiyamah after the death of Imam Mehdi (a.s).. what I said was world cannot be devoid of Hujjat-ULLAH. Maybe you misunderstood me. By me saying "I thought World would end after Imam Mehdi" meant its my thinking and I did not find any narration with respect to World going into Qiyamah. And about Rajah. I do believe in Rajah. Its because of Rajah I believe earth would continue after Imam Mehdi (a.s).
About 12 Mehdis.. Please do share the hadiths because when I went to HashemStudios partner website.. I think Black Banners the hadiths provided by them stated that 12 Mehdis are not Imams. So Imams are 12.
Hujjat-ULLAH is not stated in Al-Quran.. Ok.. Is the concept of Caliphate stated in Al-Quran? Where in Al-Quran do we find that Caliphate would succeed Prophethood? Based on what verses of Al-Quran do we find that after the Office of Prophethood the Office of Caliphate would come into existence?
At present there is no Caliph.. please enlighten me from Al-Quran why there is no Caliph of Muslims if Caliphate is necessary after Prophethood?
-
@ibn Yahya.. What was the purpose of sending Torah, Zubur and Injeel if they got corrupted as soon as the Messengers who brought them left this world?
Heavenly Books are sent to guide Humanity and Corrupted books can never guide but only misguide.
Sending Heavenly Books which gets corrupted defeats the whole purpose of them being sent to Humanity in the first place i.e. to guide Humanity
I referred to previous Holy Books by viewing our present situation. Today we have only Al-Quran for guidance and no Prophet. But what was situation after Nabi Isa (a.s) and before Prophet Mohammad (s.a.w.w) when there was no Prophet and only corrupted Gospels?
-
Not possible to say that no one has seen him (ajtf) because we have narrations in Al Irshad and also we have the dates in that book and the people that have seen him. After reading such details it would be upto to either accept them or deny them. The proof is there but, obviously there would be doubters.
Oh yes, I'm sure very reliable folks have seen this unicorn. Go back to Bihar-ul-Anwar, chapter of the 12th guy's birth and see for yourself how every single narration is emphasizing on the secrecy of his birth and how people didn't see him except for maybe two or three special guys. This is one of the biggest evidence the man is a myth. So please go ahead and keep waiting, nothing is gonna show up. As for those liars who keep claiming they saw him in dreams or saw him helping a lost person or blabla... this is the dumbest thing you can believe in, since your Fiqh books are so full of contradictions and weak Ahadith that your scholars are lost.
Look at why your scholar al-Jaza'iri curses the Companions:
[...it is because of them that the (12th) Imam has hidden and thus the people remained in the darkness of ignorance. They have have oppressed us Muslims more than they oppressed Ahlul-Bayt (as), because their benefits used to reach us, and whenever I would have a hard time with a (religious) issue I have made it a habit to curse them and disown them, for they are the cause of the absence(Ghaybah) of Allah’s proof...]
Your scholars are confused about religious rulings and even though thousands of them keep claiming they're seeing this hidden dude in their dreams yet he hasn't helped them with even ONE weak Hadith or Fiqhi ruling.
-
Imam Mehdi (a.s) was seen by his (a.s) parents and very close people who were very few. Besides them no one has seen him (a.s) up to this day. I believe in Hidden Hujjat-ULLAH based on what our Imams (a.s) said.
Out of your entire post, the most important part was the above. It contains two things:
A- Barely anyone saw him.
B- You believe God's argument is hidden. Therefore you'd rather not even say it's an argument since it's hidden.
Thirdly, God's argument in the Qur'an was clear, the sects you listed above "Mu`tazilah, Khawarij, Sunnah, Shia" they all differed on small details. The main argument was VERY clear. The Shia themselves claim to have had many differences during the lives of their 11 Imams.
For us God's argument is his Prophet (saw) who taught people faith and changed the world, God's argument is His holy book that continues to shine light in our hearts to this day and convert misguided souls, God's argument is all of His creations from tree leafs to mountains to micro-organism, all things that clearly make one think "This can't have possibly been random". This "argument" you speak of (12th leader) is a void, a null argument that did nothing except make a laughing stock of some people and was used to rob others of their wealth.
If the 12th Imam is God's argument, then God's argument according to you is a weak one. (Try convincing anyone with it and see for yourself).
-
Oh yes, I'm sure very reliable folks have seen this unicorn. Go back to Bihar-ul-Anwar, chapter of the unicorn's birth and see for yourself how every single narration is emphasizing on the secrecy of his birth and how people didn't see him except for maybe two or three special guys. This is one of the biggest evidence the man is a myth. So please go ahead and keep waiting, nothing is gonna show up.
For argument's sake let's just believe when Imam Mehdi (a.s) was born everyone saw him. At the age of five he went into Ghaibah. What would deniers of Ghaibah say? They would say that at the age of five Imam Mehdi (a.s) died and Shias started telling lies that the Imam (a.s) went into Ghaibah. See no difference whether people saw him or did not would not make any difference in believing his Ghaibah.
We consider Imam Hassan Askari (a.s) and his Ahlul Bayt (a.s) reliable. If whole 8 billion people in this world says one thing and only Imam Hassan Askari (a.s) says opposite thing. We would follow the saying of Imam Hassan Askari (a.s).
-
Imam Mehdi (a.s) was seen by his (a.s) parents and very close people who were very few. Besides them no one has seen him (a.s) up to this day. I believe in Hidden Hujjat-ULLAH based on what our Imams (a.s) said.
Out of your entire post, the most important part was the above. It contains two things:
A- Barely anyone saw him.
B- You believe God's argument is hidden. Therefore you'd rather not even say it's an argument since it's hidden.
Thirdly, God's argument in the Qur'an was clear, the sects you listed above "Mu`tazilah, Khawarij, Sunnah, Shia" they all differed on small details. The main argument was VERY clear. The Shia themselves claim to have had many differences during the lives of their 11 Imams.
For us God's argument is his Prophet (saw) who taught people faith and changed the world, God's argument is His holy book that continues to shine light in our hearts to this day and convert misguided souls, God's argument is all of His creations from tree leafs to mountains to micro-organism, all things that clearly make one think "This can't have possibly been random". This "argument" you speak of (12th leader) is a void, a null argument that did nothing except make a laughing stock of some people and was used to rob others of their wealth.
If the 12th Imam is God's argument, then God's argument according to you is a weak one. (Try convincing anyone with it and see for yourself).
I can't convince anyone. Its up to GOD. HE Alone Guides whomsoever HE Wills.
-
I did not say world would go into Qiyamah after the death of Imam Mehdi (a.s).. what I said was world cannot be devoid of Hujjat-ULLAH.
Bro you're quoting a narration by earlier Shia sects than yours, the narration of "The world cannot be devoid of Allah's Hujjah" is one used by previous sects during the life of the Imams because they never believed in Ghaybah, evidence is that you quoted the narration without the rest:
إِنَّ الْحُجَّةَ لَا تَقُومُ لِلَّهِ عَلَى خَلْقِهِ إِلَّا بِإِمَامٍ حَتَّى يُعْرَفَ
"Allah's argument cannot be established upon His creation except through a leader so they he may teach them."
And
إِنَّ الْأَرْضَ لَا تَخْلُو إِلَّا وَ فِيهَا إِمَامٌ كَيْمَا إِنْ زَادَ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ شَيْئاً رَدَّهُمْ وَ إِنْ نَقَصُوا شَيْئاً أَتَمَّهُ لَهُمْ
"The earth will not be without a leader, so that he may correct the believers if they add (to the religion) and if they miss something he would complete it for them."
This was the earlier view of the Imami Shia before Allah exposed them and they fell into the Ghaybah problem. Therefore, today God's argument is not established and the fact that he's absent is equal to him being non-existent in function.
-
For argument's sake let's just believe when Imam Mehdi (a.s) was born everyone saw him. At the age of five he went into Ghaibah. What would deniers of Ghaibah say? They would say that at the age of five Imam Mehdi (a.s) died and Shias started telling lies that the Imam (a.s) went into Ghaibah. See no difference whether people saw him or did not would not make any difference in believing his Ghaibah.
We consider Imam Hassan Askari (a.s) and his Ahlul Bayt (a.s) reliable. If whole 8 billion people in this world says one thing and only Imam Hassan Askari (a.s) says opposite thing. We would follow the saying of Imam Hassan Askari (a.s).
Some genius atheist today claimed that the Prophet (saw) never existed, this is a weak argument that was easily refuted by the huge amount of people who saw him, the mass transmitted reports and historical documents, battles etc...
In your case, nobody saw him and there's no historical marks establishing his existence. This leaves the door wide open for everybody to deny his existence. All in all, your scholars differed on whether he was born before or after his father died, they differed on who his mother was, they differed on every single detail you can possibly think of. They said he was born secretly, they said his mother gave birth to him from her thigh due to his purity that's why she didn't seem pregnant, they claimed his father hid him from existence after his birth, they claimed he grew up in one day like a regular child grows up in one month (so he matured quickly and hid himself) etc...
Now look at the ridiculousness of the situation, your scholars agree that he fled due to being scared from the Abbasi soldiers (wielding spears) and that he shall remain in hiding until it's safe to come out. They also claimed that he doesn't have enough supporters yet, al-Mufid said he needs around three hundred supporters to appear then it'll be safe.
Common man! really!? Bro it's such an obvious lie I don't understand how you people can be fooled this easily by it.
-
@ibn Yahya.. What was the purpose of sending Torah, Zubur and Injeel if they got corrupted as soon as the Messengers who brought them left this world?
Heavenly Books are sent to guide Humanity and Corrupted books can never guide but only misguide.
Sending Heavenly Books which gets corrupted defeats the whole purpose of them being sent to Humanity in the first place i.e. to guide Humanity
I referred to previous Holy Books by viewing our present situation. Today we have only Al-Quran for guidance and no Prophet. But what was situation after Nabi Isa (a.s) and before Prophet Mohammad (s.a.w.w) when there was no Prophet and only corrupted Gospels?
Bad comparison. The truth was and is in there as the Qur'an tells us. But no one has access to this Hujjah (your 12th imam) so your point is worthless
-
Bro you're quoting a narration by earlier Shia sects than yours, the narration of "The world cannot be devoid of Allah's Hujjah" is one used by previous sects during the life of the Imams because they never believed in Ghaybah, evidence is that you quoted the narration without the rest:
إِنَّ الْحُجَّةَ لَا تَقُومُ لِلَّهِ عَلَى خَلْقِهِ إِلَّا بِإِمَامٍ حَتَّى يُعْرَفَ
"Allah's argument cannot be established upon His creation except through a leader so they he may teach them."
And
إِنَّ الْأَرْضَ لَا تَخْلُو إِلَّا وَ فِيهَا إِمَامٌ كَيْمَا إِنْ زَادَ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ شَيْئاً رَدَّهُمْ وَ إِنْ نَقَصُوا شَيْئاً أَتَمَّهُ لَهُمْ
"The earth will not be without a leader, so that he may correct the believers if they add (to the religion) and if they miss something he would complete it for them."
This was the earlier view of the Imami Shia before Allah exposed them and they fell into the Ghaybah problem. Therefore, today God's argument is not established and the fact that he's absent is equal to him being non-existent in function.
I was not aware of these narrations. They seem interesting. Can you provide the name of the book where I can look into these narrations.
Normally we Shias believe Imams to be Hujjat-ULLAH. I don't have any narration stating Prophets to be Hujjat-ULLAH but I myself believe Prophets also to be Hujjat-ULLAH as Nabi Ibrahim (a.s) was Hujjat-ULLAH in his time.
As I stated before I am not knowledgeable in this field and everyday I learn something new.
-
@ibn Yahya.. What was the purpose of sending Torah, Zubur and Injeel if they got corrupted as soon as the Messengers who brought them left this world?
Heavenly Books are sent to guide Humanity and Corrupted books can never guide but only misguide.
Sending Heavenly Books which gets corrupted defeats the whole purpose of them being sent to Humanity in the first place i.e. to guide Humanity
I referred to previous Holy Books by viewing our present situation. Today we have only Al-Quran for guidance and no Prophet. But what was situation after Nabi Isa (a.s) and before Prophet Mohammad (s.a.w.w) when there was no Prophet and only corrupted Gospels?
Bad comparison. The truth was and is in there as the Qur'an tells us. But no one has access to this Hujjah (your 12th imam) so your point is worthless
So for 600 years people having no Prophet and uncorrupted book ... Tell me how were they getting guidance? Surely in our age we have Quran for guidance... But for them what was there for guidance?
-
I was not aware of these narrations. They seem interesting. Can you provide the name of the book where I can look into these narrations.
Normally we Shias believe Imams to be Hujjat-ULLAH. I don't have any narration stating Prophets to be Hujjat-ULLAH but I myself believe Prophets also to be Hujjat-ULLAH as Nabi Ibrahim (a.s) was Hujjat-ULLAH in his time.
As I stated before I am not knowledgeable in this field and everyday I learn something new.
I don't believe in those narrations but at least the earlier Imami view made more sense than the Imamis of today who claim that WE MUST HAVE A leader and guide BUT the man's absent so... sorry. Then they blame it on us that he's absent Haha.
As for the Prophets and Messengers, they ARE the strongest of God's many arguments:
{[We sent] messengers as bringers of good tidings and warners so that mankind will have no argument(Hujjah) against Allah after the messengers. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.} [4:165]
The two narrations are authentic according to your scholars, both from al-Kafi.
There's other authentic ones from basa'ir al-Darajat for instance:
يعقوب السراج قال
قلت لأبي عبد الله عليه السلام تخلوا الأرض من عالم منكم حي ظاهر تفزع إليه الناس في حلالهم وحرامهم فقال يا أبا يوسف لا
I said to abu `Abdillah (as): “Would the earth be devoid from an apparent man of knowledge from among you [O household], so that the people may seek him in their issues of Halal and Haram?” He (as) replied: “O abu Yusuf, NO."
عن محمد بن مسلم عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام قال لا تبقى الأرض بغير امام ظاهر
from abu Ja`far (as) that he said: “The earth shall not remain without an apparent Imam.”
-
So for 600 years people having no Prophet and uncorrupted book ... Tell me how were they getting guidance? Surely in our age we have Quran for guidance... But for them what was there for guidance?
We believe there was always guidance and God would not punish without warning first. The faith of `Isa (as) was still alive and not every christian believed in trinity some were Unitarians it wasn't erased but when it diminished Allah sent the remembrance.
-
Some genius atheist today claimed that the Prophet (saw) never existed, this is a weak argument that was easily refuted by the huge amount of people who saw him, the mass transmitted reports and historical documents, battles etc...
In your case, nobody saw him and there's no historical marks establishing his existence. This leaves the door wide open for everybody to deny his existence. All in all, your scholars differed on whether he was born before or after his father died, they differed on who his mother was, they differed on every single detail you can possibly think of. They said he was born secretly, they said his mother gave birth to him from her thigh due to his purity that's why she didn't seem pregnant, they claimed his father hid him from existence after his birth, they claimed he grew up in one day like a regular child grows up in one month (so he matured quickly and hid himself) etc...
Now look at the ridiculousness of the situation, your scholars agree that he fled due to being scared from the Abbasi soldiers (wielding spears) and that he shall remain in hiding until it's safe to come out. They also claimed that he doesn't have enough supporters yet, al-Mufid said he needs around three hundred supporters to appear then it'll be safe.
Common man! really!? Bro it's such an obvious lie I don't understand how you people can be fooled this easily by it.
Did that genius atheist after seeing huge amount of evidence accept Prophethood of Mohammed (s.a.w.w) and become Muslim?
About conficting narrations please make a new thread on this topic citing all such narrations as I myself want to look at these narrations. I did know that there are some conflicting reports but now want to do some research on this topic.
-
No, but when the argument is established he becomes a stubborn disbeliever and he is entitled for hell-fire as he didn't respect his own intellect. Matters would be different if there was no evidence yet he still insisted.
PS. I can't translate them all, I can record an audio on youtube and mention a lot of them if you wish then link you guys to it.
-
No, but when the argument is established he becomes a stubborn disbeliever and he is entitled for hell-fire as he didn't respect his own intellect. Matters would be different if there was no evidence yet he still insisted.
PS. I can't translate them all, I can record an audio on youtube and mention a lot of them if you wish then link you guys to it.
Translate as much as you can. If you make an audio then do provide the link.
-
@ibn Yahya.. What was the purpose of sending Torah, Zubur and Injeel if they got corrupted as soon as the Messengers who brought them left this world?
Heavenly Books are sent to guide Humanity and Corrupted books can never guide but only misguide.
Sending Heavenly Books which gets corrupted defeats the whole purpose of them being sent to Humanity in the first place i.e. to guide Humanity
I referred to previous Holy Books by viewing our present situation. Today we have only Al-Quran for guidance and no Prophet. But what was situation after Nabi Isa (a.s) and before Prophet Mohammad (s.a.w.w) when there was no Prophet and only corrupted Gospels?
Bad comparison. The truth was and is in there as the Qur'an tells us. But no one has access to this Hujjah (your 12th imam) so your point is worthless
So for 600 years people having no Prophet and uncorrupted book ... Tell me how were they getting guidance? Surely in our age we have Quran for guidance... But for them what was there for guidance?
The Tawrat and Injil were Hujjahs and contained the truth. Your Imam is a "Hujjah" but nowhere to be seen or consulted. The Tawrat and Injil served their purposes as hujjahs by providing evidence for the true deen but your Imam has not and does not provide evidence so he doesn't fulfil his purpose as a Hujjah. So his existence is useless.
-
We consider Imam Hassan Askari (a.s) and his Ahlul Bayt (a.s) reliable. If whole 8 billion people in this world says one thing and only Imam Hassan Askari (a.s) says opposite thing. We would follow the saying of Imam Hassan Askari (a.s).
So do you believe Tasfir al Askari is reliable?
-
Translate as much as you can. If you make an audio then do provide the link.
Here, how quick was that? Enjoy bro as translating was not easy!
http://twelvershia.net/2016/05/09/mahdi-part-2/
-
Thanks Hani,
You have mentioned in the link Part 2, is there Part 1 to this video? Please give the link of Part 1 as well.. would like to watch both videos.
-
Thanks Hani,
You have mentioned in the link Part 2, is there Part 1 to this video? Please give the link of Part 1 as well.. would like to watch both videos.
Here is the part 1:
http://twelvershia.net/2015/03/02/audio-book-al-imamah-wal-nass/
-
No part 1... Yet.
I skipped ahead in that book so I can give you the content you asked for. So I planned ahead and named it part 2.
As for part 1, it's very similar to the article I linked to at the beginning of my video. I seriously suggest you read that article very carefully either before or after you listen to the (long) clip.
Link to article
http://twelvershia.net/2015/10/30/the-shia-mahdi/