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Why I believe Shiite Scholars are Khums stealers along with those under them.

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1.  The talk about no wage/wealth in return for the message.

The Prophet could not have asked 1/5th of people income, as the theme of Prophets not asking a wage or reward in return of the message, would have no relevance, as it doesn't seem right to say Noah didn't ask for wealth and whatever the Prophet asked of the wage is for ourselves, and it is that who wants to, to take a path to their Lord.

That is to say, if you tell a person, I don't want any money in return for the message, but then demand from them 1/5 of extra income, then it seems like they have to take your claim of intention while your actions don't determine it.

It would seem really bad that all Prophets don't ask wealth regarding the message, but then Prophet demands 1/5 of people extra income annually and takes a large portion for himself regarding that.

2. They don't have the position of the Prophet and his successors.

The claim Prophet and his family asked wealth annually is one thing, it is another thing to say that we now take this position of the Prophet and his family, because, they are no longer here. That they are responsible for it and that much of it's money goes to them.

That is absolutely insane.

Aside from the fact Quran commands all people to become Rabaniyoon,  how can one claim this position?  What proof do they have they represent the Prophet and Imams.

3. They hide the truth and twist Quran


There are clear verses against what they teach and they are aware of this, but are sticking to the classical old teachings despite the truth becoming manifest to them.

4. They misquote hadiths regarding taqleed and don't show most of hadiths regarding it.


If someone warned about crossing a highway, and talked about the dangers of it, and someone says, well it's possible to cross and that you make it to the other side somehow, than you respond about that while it is possible, that there is too many dangers and probability of not making it.

No one in their sane head would say this is propagating that you can cross a highway by the line  "it is possible".

The same is true of the one sole hadith that if you read hadiths similar to them is warning of the dangers of taqleed and is not at all endorsing it.

There are many others that clarify the subject even further and they know these hadiths.

5. They put a mantle of righteous purity.


The Quran warns of clergy that put a mantle of purity. Of course none of these people in Quran claimed they are Ma'asoom (although with Khameini and Khomeini I see people claim this status for them),  but made it as if they over of pure intentions and are coming with sincerity to interpret God's books and represent his teachings.

This is condemned in Quran and believers are not only forbidden to take the mantle of "listen to us and follow us" but even to take the mantle of claiming purity, categorically forbidden to claim it.

6. There are many AUTHENTIC hadiths that interpret Khums properly.


There is many hadiths that interpret as spoils of war and even the 2nd part to apply to Muslims and not just "Syeds", but these are not emphasized on and instead other ones are emphasized that suit their purpose.

All one has to do is open the Quran, see the context and read history to know the proper interpretation.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Farid

I've read contemporary Shia book that states that the Khums first turned into an income tax during the time of Al Jawad.

There is no doubt that people made a chunk of money using the name of Ahlulbayt.

What are your thoughts on the original four niwaab (representatives) of Al Mahdi? They were some of the original scammers.

Hadrami

I've read contemporary Shia book that states that the Khums first turned into an income tax during the time of Al Jawad.

There is no doubt that people made a chunk of money using the name of Ahlulbayt.

What are your thoughts on the original four niwaab (representatives) of Al Mahdi? They were some of the original scammers.
do you think the last one felt guilty, hence why he didnt pass the scammer job to another person? 😊

Farid

I think when one is usually dying, one is mainly concerned with themselves, and isn't all that concerned about passing on the scam to someone else.


That is one theory at least.

Maybe he DID say that there was another representative, however, his "boys" wanted to share the wealth, so they decided that there wouldn't be one representative anymore.

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What are your thoughts on the original four niwaab (representatives) of Al Mahdi?

I don't believe in them and believe it's violation of leadership and representation of God's religion explanation in Quran. Aside from khums issue.

The hadiths from them probably were from previous Imams and they attributed it to Imam Mahdi.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Farid

Does that mean that you don't believe in Al Ghayba Al Sughra?

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Does that mean that you don't believe in Al Ghayba Al Sughra?

He (as) might have been meeting with people during a period, but I don't in believe in having a non-chosen person represent the religion and being an authority regarding it, you need decisive proof to lead humans with respect to religion and hold authority.

I don't believe in the four "nawab" because all but in name, they would be representatives and hold authority regarding the religion and be leaders regarding the religion and proofs, and the religion cannot be established on a house of cards like this.

And it is a house of cards and has lead to division, we left what we knew for certainty for what is doubtful.



Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

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Does that mean that you don't believe in Al Ghayba Al Sughra?

He (as) might have been meeting with people during a period in more general way, while right now it would be more elite he would meet, but I don't in believe in having a non-chosen person represent the religion and being an authority regarding it, you need decisive proof to lead humans with respect to religion and hold authority.

I don't believe in the four "nawab" because all but in name, they would be representatives and hold authority regarding the religion and be leaders regarding the religion and proofs, and the religion cannot be established on a house of cards like this.

And it is a house of cards and has lead to division, we left what we knew for certainty for what is doubtful.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Farid

Is there anyone that has claimed to have met him that you particularly trust?

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Is there anyone that has claimed to have met him that you particularly trust?

No,  I don't believe anyone would claim to meet him and represent him and be a believer. Not a single saying would be attributed to him.

Let us think about it. To attribute to something to God, we need decisive proof. The Messenger is the clear proof according to Suratal Bayana as he is the living Quran, and the miracles he presents verify him.

The Quran was not telling people to be naive and accept every Tom Dick and Jerry who claims something with respect to religion, it was actually saying you should reject everyone without proof and bring your proof if you are truthful.

Quran and Mohammad were a clear proof. Imam Ali was a proof. The Imams are clear proofs.

However,  these people are not clear proofs. No scholar can reach that level, that humanity has to trust what he has to say regarding God or his representative.

Everyone has the right to analyse the words attributed by a person to the Imams previous to Imam Mahdi obviously, and see if it contradicts Quran and reason or not.

So then the question, is what is the proof today? What role does Imam Mahdi play with believers?


The hadiths and Quran have to be downloaded to the heart. That is they require reflection. Constant reflection day to day. Over and over again.

The the thing, is we will be able through the help and name of God understand Quran if we guard our relationship with God and fear his judgment which we cannot escape over that of people.

If we remember the true witness that defines us while no other witness does, and the closest witnesses that see degrees in truth to that vision and act of creation of God by which he with all things, the seeing and hearing one, is the witnesses he appoints, the leaders and guides.


Now the problem with people in the past religions is they all claimed to believe in light but as Quran reminds, talked in conjecture about the unseen while they were distant.

The Quran talks about how Mohammad can connect them with a sign from the highest reality but only on certain conditions, if the people were capable of receiving and downloading the sign.

The remembrance of age can remind us of the wonders of God, the proof is by which the book is truly recited, and the true hadiths can be downloaded to the heart.

He is the means towards seeing the path and is the central guide in the etiquette of the Prophet in Salah and in the various forms of Zakat, and is the means to gain vision on the unseen road to God.


The Quran warns of the leadership of the people of the book and then emphasizes on the leadership of Abraham and the successors of Moses in Suratal Baqara.

It warns of their leadership and then emphasizes on obedience to God, the Messenger and Ulil-Amr.

It warns of their leadership, not to take the people of the book as authorities regarding God's religion and then emphasises on the sole Mastery of God, his MEssenger, and a group of people Imam Ali represented (ie. the successors). It warns then after of not taking authorities of those who have made the religion into a play thing and game.

It warns in the 6th Surah of those who demand so much proofs and pose so much questions towards God's chosen leaders and religion,  but don't apply that sketicism towards who in the interior hidden kingdom, are friends of Satan and who plan against God's chosen, the most wicked of the people, don't question their leadership and authority with the same demands of proofs regarding God's chosen showing the hypocritical basis of disbelief.

And indeed the upright religion, when it talks about it, and designates it's holy number, warns of those who made people worship humans from the scholars of the people of the book and warns and addresses believers of those who take people's wealth and don't spend in God's way from numerous religious clergy.

And the rope of God and rope from humans were always the chosen families a long with the revelations that came with them, those who understood the religion first hand and who don't mix the Taghut with the authority of God's hanhold.

Those who represented God's truth and guided by the light of his beautiful names.

Those who were the way after the founder, being the very way of the founder, split into twelve ways, as they were captains who sail by the name of God taking by the covenant of their founder, the door opened that who turned away from turned away from God's help and rope, and who turned away from, didn't want the guidance but wanted the falsehood instead.


Indeed it's old trick to say "where is the Guide now" and say "we need scholars to hold his authority" until "he returns". Satan had me fooled for a long time but not now.

We do need scholars, but not to claim his authority, but make rest of humanity into scholars and teach the book and we all become Rabaniyoon by what we teach of the book and by what we study, the only way to not worship a human!

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Farid

Re: Why I believe Shiite Scholars are Khums stealers along with those under them.
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2017, 11:39:50 PM »
I wasn't asking about his representatives. My question was general. Do you have trust in anyone that has claimed to have met him?

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Re: Why I believe Shiite Scholars are Khums stealers along with those under them.
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2017, 11:48:20 PM »
I wasn't asking about his representatives. My question was general. Do you have trust in anyone that has claimed to have met him?

I don't trust any of our scholars past or present after Imam Hassan Al-Askari died.  Does that mean I think they all fabricated hadiths, no? Does that mean I believe they did not fabricate any hadiths, no?

They abandoned the people of truth and there is no reason I don't abandon them. Among them is ones who tried to say Quran is fabricated and went into lengths to prove that.

Among them is who collected hadiths of Ahlulbayt (as) and proved their Wilayah with insight only to emphasize that with respect to the rest of the Shariah, we cannot have insight from God clarified.

Among them is who justified murder of souls. Among them is who collected hadiths that say to kill those who insult Islamic holy figures (Prophet and Imams).

All of them mixed ugly sayings with truth, as if there was never a people who narrated on the truth and enjoined nothing but the truth. Rather, those people were killed, dispersed, fought, time and time again, till we remain with the collections we have today.

The deceivers can go deceive someone else, they always try to distort the revelations, but as Quran was protected, what they did is collect hadiths that contradict it's teachings and emphasize on their "tawatur" level through a system that has not been proven by either Quran hadiths or reasoning, and thereby they confuse people regarding the light of Quran.

They wish people to remain blind to it,  the reason was obscure to me, why Scholars don't emphasize on the flow of Quran to prove leadership but it is clear with the flow, it refutes their leadership and so they dare not speak to what will give people insight.

May God curse all deceivers, who mask the truth.


Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Hadrami

Re: Why I believe Shiite Scholars are Khums stealers along with those under them.
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2017, 01:39:00 AM »
I think when one is usually dying, one is mainly concerned with themselves, and isn't all that concerned about passing on the scam to someone else.


That is one theory at least.

Maybe he DID say that there was another representative, however, his "boys" wanted to share the wealth, so they decided that there wouldn't be one representative anymore.
is there any record of these 4 mahdi ponzi scheme scammers being exposed? I remember reading about 1 of these scammers wrote he used to fight like dogs with other wannabee scammers about "this thing", i think it refers to either khum collection or being a rep

Farid

Re: Why I believe Shiite Scholars are Khums stealers along with those under them.
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2017, 06:58:01 AM »
Link, what about those that claimed that they Mahdi was born?

As you know, members of Ahlulbayt denied his existence. How can you tell that he was born if you have doubts about those that claimed they have met him?

Link

Re: Why I believe Shiite Scholars are Khums stealers along with those under them.
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2017, 03:53:33 PM »
I believe in the hadiths naming the Twelve Imams for various sound reasons.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Farid

Re: Why I believe Shiite Scholars are Khums stealers along with those under them.
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2017, 05:45:44 PM »
Please share one of them.

Link

Re: Why I believe Shiite Scholars are Khums stealers along with those under them.
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2017, 06:54:41 PM »
The Quran shows God provided clear proofs in the past as emphasis he would regarding the religion for all humanity as well.  While in the past the revelations each Prophet would receive would be legacy of his proof of his chosen status as the case was with the successors of Moses,  revelations to be given to humanity on behalf of God has ceased.  They who have the authority in this nation require a proof of a different kind.  The Quran designates the family of Mohammad while the Sunnah would be required to clarify exactly who they are and so we expect the Prophet to not only emphasize on his family and successors but on their number and not only on their number but name the exact twelve as a legacy of him actually leaving the guidance of his family with clear proofs.  There is only one set of names for the twelve and so we see the designation of who the family of Mohammad is has been safeguarded as well without need of each of them having a revelation with them.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Hani

Re: Why I believe Shiite Scholars are Khums stealers along with those under them.
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2017, 10:33:12 PM »
They're theives yet you accept those Imami Hadith books they give you. You Accept their politicized version of history that they provided you in their works.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Farid

Re: Why I believe Shiite Scholars are Khums stealers along with those under them.
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2017, 10:33:54 PM »
The Prophet peace be upon him listed their names you say?

Have you read my article on Imamah in Early Shia Societies?

Link

Re: Why I believe Shiite Scholars are Khums stealers along with those under them.
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2017, 10:44:08 PM »
They're theives yet you accept those Imami Hadith books they give you. You Accept their politicized version of history that they provided you in their works.

What do you mean by accepting? And what do you mean by accepting their version of history?

Do you know of the false way of arguing known as "black and white"?

I take it you studied a little philosophy and logic and know what that is?

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

 

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