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Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas

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Shia_student

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2015, 01:40:27 AM »
Quote
However, when asked about proof for the Imamate of the Twelve, you become aware that there is no binding evidence upon Sunnis...


Exactly! I wanted to follow a method, through which I could prove the binding upon the Sunnis, atleast logically if not textually.

How does logic play a role in binding a party to a specific belief?

The Atheists are not compelled to believe in Allah by following the Holy Scriptures, nor do they believe in them, yet it is blinding upon them to logically believe in His existence first. Once they form the belief of His existence in their heart, they are further obligated to research about His revelations and guidance, because logically it is unacceptable for a Creator to create His beings and then leave them to stray from the right course...

Such steps will eventually lead anyone to follow Allah's guidance based upon textual proofs.

In the same way, the Shia Ahadith and our interpretation formed on their basis, is not binding upon the Sunnis until they come to know about the truth in their connection. Till then, they are obligated to research and not blindly follow their scholars and forefathers.

The Quran is full of Ayats which guide a Muslim, just as the signs of Allah (in the universe) are indicators for the Atheists.

So let's look at the Ayats of Allah, and logically work our way down.

Once we reach the final Prophet and his Imamate, we can raise the question, what happened to his Leadership? Was it abrogated along with his Prophethood?

Such questions and responses, will inspire us to accept that there is no room for the worldly Khalifate, except the divine Leadership.

Take a ride Farid!

If you still insist that I should take the hard and difficult route, then let me know. I will try to prove it your way.

By the way, I like your excuse of diverting the topic. The Hadith relates to the Imamate of the twelve Imams. I wanted to show you and the readers its connection to the divine Imamah as found in the Holy Quran, so that to demolish the man made belief in the Khalifate system. Anyway, we know WHY you are not permitting me to take my route. :)

InshaAllah, tomorrow you will get my response.





« Last Edit: August 21, 2015, 01:46:26 AM by Shia_student »

Farid

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2015, 01:44:48 AM »
Quote
If you still insist that I should take the hard and difficult route, then let me know. I will try to prove it your way.

I insist.

Shia_student

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2015, 07:46:09 PM »
Asalaam Alaikum.

Sorry for the delay. Friday is a busy day for all Muslims. Here is the first step to the Shia understanding of the Hadith as reported by Jabir bin Samurah, concerning the "Twelve Leaders" of Islam.

As you are aware, there are multiple versions of it containing some differences.

I believe, the Prophet had most likely  used the wording: "Twelve Imams" instead of "Khalifas" or "Amirs", but the narrators used what they saw fit according to circumstances. There was a trend of using all three terms interchangeably.

Here are a couple of examples of such a trend from Sahih al-Bukhari:

Narrated Abu Huraira:
That heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) saying, "We are the last but will be the foremost to enter Paradise)." The Prophet added, "He who obeys me, obeys Allah, and he who disobeys me, disobeys Allah. He who obeys the chief, obeys me, and he who disobeys the chief, disobeys me. The Imam is like a shelter for whose safety the Muslims should fight and where they should seek protection. If the Imam orders people with righteousness and rules justly, then he will be rewarded for that, and if he does the opposite, he will be responsible for that."


We see, "chief" has been used in reference to the Imam.

Nāfi’ī from ‘Abdullāh, Allāh’s Apostle said: “Everyone of you is a guardian and is responsible for his charges. The Amīr who has authority over people, is a guardian and is responsible for them, a man is a guardian of his family and is responsible for them; a woman is a guardian of her husband's house..."

Sālim ibn Abdullāh from ‘Abdullāh ibn ‘Umar said that he heard Allāh’s Apostle saying: “ ‘Everyone of you is a guardian and is responsible for his charge; the Imām is a guardian and is responsible for his subjects (the people); the man is a guardian in his family and responsible for his charges; a woman is a guardian of her husband’s house..."

We see, Amir and Imam used interchangeably.

However, in the Shia sources, we have multiple Ahadith where "Imams" has been used predominantly. Here is an example:

Shaykh Saduq recorded in his Amali:

حـدثنا احمد بن محمد (رحمه اللّه ), قال : حدثنا ابي , عن محمد بن عبدالجبار, عن ابي احـمـد مـحـمـد بـن زياد الازدي , عن ابان بن عثمان , عن ثابت بن دينار, عن سيد العابدين علي بن الحسين , عن سيد الشهدا الحسين بن علي , عن سيد الاوصيا امير المؤمنين علي بن ابي طالب (عليهم السلام ), قال : قال رسول اللّه (صلى اللّه عليه وآله ): الائمة من بعدي اثنا عشر, اولهم انت يا علي , وآخرهم القائم الذي يفتح اللّه تعالى ذكره على يديه مشارق الارض ومغاربها

The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him and his family) said:

"There will be twelve Imams after me. The first, will be you O Ali and final one  willl be the al-Qaim. Allah will grant him victory over the lands of east and west."

In support of the Shia Hadith, I will use some Sunni reports to prove that instead of Amirs and Khalifahs, the Prophet had most surely used "Imams".

Please note, what is "common" amongst the reports of Jabir bin Samura (in regards to the twelve Khalifahs) is that they all contain, this wording:

"All of them will be from the Quraish"

The above sentence is IMPORTANT and has been supported through other routes too. Here's an example from Sahih al-Bukhari:

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو الْوَلِيدِ، حَدَّثَنَا عَاصِمُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ، قَالَ سَمِعْتُ أَبِي، عَنِ ابْنِ عُمَرَ ـ رضى الله عنهما ـ عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ "‏ لا يَزَالُ هَذَا الأَمْرُ فِي قُرَيْشٍ، مَا بَقِيَ مِنْهُمُ اثْنَانِ ‏"‏‏.‏

Narrated Ibn `Umar:
The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Authority of ruling will remain with Quraish, even if only two of them remained.


Here is another example quoted by Shaykh al-Albaani in Kitab al-Sunnah :
قريش ولاة الناس في الخير و الشر إلى يوم القيامة

"The Quraysh will rule mankind, whether they are in good times or bad times, till the Day of Resurrection."

Al-Albani says:
إسناده صحيح على شرط مسلم
Its chain is sahih on the conditions of (Imam) Muslim.

Since there is evidence that the Prophet affirmed the Leadership being amongst the Quraish, we can now quote the following report.

Shaykh al-Albani in his al-Targheeb wa al-Tarheeb, authenticated the following Hadith:

الأئمة من قريش إن لي عليكم حقا ولهم عليكم حقا مثل ذلك

"The Imams are from Quraysh. They have equal right over you as I do

As you are aware, the version, "The Imams are from Quraish" has been narrated by multiple Sahabah.

We can now safely say, the Prophet spoke about the TWEVE Imams of the Quraish but Jabir bin Samura or someone else in the chain used Amirs and Khalifas, depending on their choice and period.

As further evidence, the following reports also support my case. What was common amongst the Sahabah was that they used, "Imam" for the Muslim leader, as did the Prophet himself.

I will divide the Prophetic usage of the term from the Sahabah.

The Prophetic reports:

Imam al-Bukhari and Imam Muslim:

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) observed:

What will be your state when the son of Mary descends amongst you and there will be an Imam amongst you?

Sahih Muslim:

It is narrated on the authority of Tamim ad-Dari that the Messenger of Allah (may peace and blessings be upon him) observed:

Al-Din is a name of sincerity and well wishing. Upon this we said: For whom? He replied: For Allah, His Book, His Messenger and for the leaders [of the Muslims) and the general Muslims.

Here's the Arabic:
 قَالَ ‏"‏ لِلَّهِ وَلِكِتَابِهِ وَلِرَسُولِهِ وَلأَئِمَّةِ الْمُسْلِمِينَ وَعَامَّتِهِمْ ‏"‏
Sunan Abu Dawood:

Narrated Abdullah b. 'Amr:
The Prophet (ﷺ) as saying: If a man takes an oath of allegiance to a leader, and puts his hand on his hand and does it with the sincerity of his heart, he should obey him as much as possible. If another man comes and contests him, then behead the other one..."


Here the text of the Hadith:

مَنْ بَايَعَ إِمَامًا فَأَعْطَاهُ صَفْقَةَ يَدِهِ وَثَمَرَةَ قَلْبِهِ فَلْيُطِعْهُ مَا اسْتَطَاعَ فَإِنْ جَاءَ آخَرُ يُنَازِعُهُ فَاضْرِبُوا رَقَبَةَ الآخَرِ ‏"‏ ‏.

Sahih al-Muslim:

It has been narrated on the authority of 'Auf b. Malik that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:

The best of your Imams are those whom you love and who love you, who invoke God's blessings upon you and you invoke His blessings upon them. And the worst of your Imams are those whom you hate and who hate you and whom you curse and who curse you..."

Note I have corrected the translation from Rulers to "Imams" because the Arabic contains:

خِيَارُ أَئِمَّتِكُمُ الَّذِينَ تُحِبُّونَهُمْ وَيُحِبُّونَكُمْ وَيُصَلُّونَ عَلَيْكُمْ وَتُصَلُّونَ عَلَيْهِمْ

Sahih Muslim from Hudaifah bin al-Yaman :

"...Whereupon he [The Prophet] said: There will be leaders who will not be led by my guidance and who will not adopt my ways? There will be among them men who will have the hearts of devils in the bodies of human beings..."

Arabic contains Imams.

Sunan Abu Dawood:

Umm Salamah, wife of the Prophet (May peace be upon him) is reported to have said:

The Messenger of Allah (May peace be upon him) said: You will have Imams some of whom you will approve and some of whom you will disapprove. He who expresses disapproval with his tongue (Abu Dawud said : This is Hisham’s version) is guiltless; and he who feels disapproval in his heart, is safe, but he who is pleased and follows them. He was asked; shall we not kill them, Messenger of Allah? Abu Dawud’s version has : Shall we not fight with them? He replied : No, so long as they pray.

Commanders replaced to Imams. The Arabic contains Imams:

سَتَكُونُ عَلَيْكُمْ أَئِمَّةٌ تَعْرِفُونَ مِنْهُمْ وَتُنْكِرُونَ فَمَنْ أَنْكَرَ

Again from Sunan Dawood:

Abu Dharr reported the Messenger of Allah (May peace be upon him) as saying :

How will you deal with the rulers (imams) who appropriate to themselves this booty? I said : I swear by him who sent you with the truth that at that time I shall put my sword on my shoulder and smite with it till I meet you, or I join you. He said: shall I not guide you to something better than that? You must show endurance till you meet me.

Imams in the brackets by the translator, that is what the Arabic text contains.

Reports from the Sahabah using "Imam" for Leadership:

Sahih al-Bukhari:

A woman speaks to Abu Bakr...

"....She asked, "From what branch of Quraish are you?" He said, "You ask too many questions; I am Abu Bakr." She said, "How long shall we enjoy this good order (i.e. Islamic religion) which Allah has brought after the period of ignorance?" He said, "You will enjoy it as long as your Imams keep on abiding by its rules and regulations." She asked, "What are the Imams?" He said, "Were there not heads and chiefs of your nation who used to order the people and they used to obey them?" She said, "Yes." He said, "So they (i.e. the Imams) are those whom I meant."

An extract from al-Tirmidhi, where Abu Saeed stated about the Prophet:

قَالَ هَذَا نَبِيُّكُمْ صلى الله عليه وسلم يُوحَى إِلَيْهِ وَخِيَارُ أَئِمَّتِكُمْ لَوْ أَطَاعَهُمْ فِي كَثِيرٍ مِنَ الأَمْرِ لَعَنِتُوا فَكَيْفَ بِكُمُ الْيَوْمَ

He said: "This is your Prophet (ﷺ) to whom the Revelation came, and the best of your leaders, if he had obeyed them in may of their matters, then he would have been in trouble. So how about you people today?"

In another report from al-Tirmidhi, Abu Saeed says:

Abu Sa'eed narrated that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:
"Indeed, the most beloved of people to Allah on the Day of Judgement, and the nearest to Him in the status is the just Imam. And the most hated of people to Allah and the furthest from Him in status is the oppressive Imam."


Muwatta of al-Malik:

وَحَدَّثَنِي عَنْ مَالِكٍ، أَنَّهُ بَلَغَهُ أَنَّ عَبْدَ اللَّهِ بْنَ عُمَرَ، قَالَ اللَّهُمَّ اجْعَلْنِي مِنْ أَئِمَّةِ الْمُتَّقِينَ ‏.‏

Yahya related to me from Malik that he had heard that Abdullah ibn Umar said, "O Allah, make me one of the leaders of the people of taqwa ."
Allahumma jalniy min a'imati'l-mutaqin.


Al-Tirmidhi:

Amr bin Al-Harith Al-Mustaliq said:
"It used to be said that the people with the worst punishment [on the Day of Judgment] are two: A woman who disobeyed her husband, and a people's Imam whom they dislike."


My main support would have emerged from the Holy Quran, but unfortunately you prevented me from making my case much stronger.

Anyhow, before I proceed to the next step of proving that the Hadith of Jabir bin Samura refers to the twelve Imams of the Shia, I want you to inform me if you have any objections to what has been presented by me so far?

And are you willing to acknowledge that the Prophet had ALSO used "Imams" for the Hadith in question but the narrators used different terms, interchangeably?

You may not find that important, but I do.

If your answer is yes, then I'll proceed further once time permits me to. On the contrary, If you have any objections, then let's inspect them.

I'll wait for your reply.

Wa Salaam.

Farid

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2015, 09:06:11 PM »
You have still not provided your interpretation. Instead, you have decided to criticize the wording that I have provided.

You said:

Quote
And are you willing to acknowledge that the Prophet had ALSO used "Imams" for the Hadith in question but the narrators used different terms, interchangeably?

The Prophet peace be upon him narrated this hadith once, as I have explained in the previous page. If you have evidence that this very narration was narrated by him more than once then please present it.

Quote
We can now safely say, the Prophet spoke about the TWEVE Imams of the Quraish but Jabir bin Samura or someone else in the chain used Amirs and Khalifas, depending on their choice and period.

Your provided two theories about the tampering of the narration from Imams to Caliphs.

The first is that it is from Jabir. In other words, the PRIMARY narrator of the hadith tampered with the narration. Then, the students of Jabir all went against him and narrated it in another way. This is not possible since students cannot agree upon narrating a narration in a way that is different from their teacher accidentally. Furthermore, he was their only source of this narration. So it isn't like they had the ability to get the "proper wording" from elsewhere.

The second theory is that the all five tabi'een were "agents" that narrated this hadith from Jabir. They apparently, according to you, conspired to do this.

Please provide proper evidences that the term used was "Imam". Your conspiracy theory arguments have no weight. We are not on Shiachat.

Also, please provide a source for the narration that includes the wording "Imam".

« Last Edit: August 21, 2015, 09:19:59 PM by Farid »

Shia_student

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2015, 12:39:38 AM »
quote]You have still not provided your interpretation. Instead, you have decided to criticize the wording that I have provided.[/quote]

Have some patience! I did state that I'll be taking it in stages. As long as I remain within the boundary of our discussion, you shouldn't have a problem with that.

And secondly, don't expect me to cover a huge topic in a short time. Have some sense. The history has been altered and misrepresented to a great sense. To unravel certain mysteries takes time.

Quote
The Prophet peace be upon him narrated this hadith once, as I have explained in the previous page. If you have evidence that this very narration was narrated by him more than once then please present it.


As for that specific report, then Allah knows best but who's there to say that such issues were not repeated during the Prophet's time?

According Ibn Hajar Asqalani in his Fath al-Bari:

أخرجه أحمد والبزار من حديث ابن مسعود بسند حسن” أنه سئل كم يملك هذه الأمة من خليفة ؟ ” فقال : سألنا عنها رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال ” اثنا عشر كعدة نقباء بني إسرائيل

Abdullah bin Masuad  asked the Prophet as to how many Caliphs will rule the community? He stated, twelve, as the chiefs of Bani Israeel.

He also rated same report in his Matalib as "Ḥasan" whilst quoting a mutaba'at for it.

So here is your evidence of the issue of Leadership being repeated. Who knows how many times it may have been repeated. The historical circumstances have suppressed many truths and many were ignored and forgotten.

The matter of Leadership is a very important issue and required for every age. How could the Sahabah or the Tabi'een have felt at ease with just ONE version of a report, especially when it does not even mention the names!

Would you not have clarified the matter FURTHER Farid, had you lived in such times? Or would you have been happy with one report with its tail missing?

Quote
We can now safely say, the Prophet spoke about the TWEVE Imams of the Quraish but Jabir bin Samura or someone else in the chain used Amirs and Khalifas, depending on their choice and period.

Quote
Your provided two theories about the tampering of the narration from Imams to Caliphs. The first is that it is from Jabir. In other words, the PRIMARY narrator of the hadith tampered with the narration.


Why isn't that possible? He may have been compelled to do so. Besides, I have revealed to you that "Imams" was also commonly used for the Leaders of the Muslims. On top of that, I mentioned another report, where the Prophet stated:

"The Imams are from Quraish"

Now, how would you reconcile the above statement, with the report of Jabir who connects Khalifahs with the Quraish and not the Imams?

Or are you going to say, Imams are different from Khalifas, like Shaykh Tahir al-Qadri!

Go ahead, either reconcile the two seemingly inconsistent reports, or accept that Jabir may have replaced Imams with Khalifas, on a particular occasion, where the majority of his students heard him expressing the latter version.

As an alternative, I can claim that the Prophet may have narrated different versions, so that to restrict all forms of Leadership for those whom he had in his mind.

As for the rest of your remarks, they are irrelevant at the moment.

Wa salaam.

Farid

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2015, 06:15:54 AM »
Quote
On top of that, I mentioned another report, where the Prophet stated:

"The Imams are from Quraish"

Please provide a proper reference.

Shia_student

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2015, 01:44:51 PM »
Here read the discussion on that Hadith by Shaykh al-Albaani in his:

إرواء الغليل في تخريج أحاديث منار السبيل

He has authenticated it:

(520) - (حديث: " الأئمة من قريش " (ص 124) .
* صحيح.
ورد من حديث جماعة من الصحابة منهم أنس بن مالك وعلى بن أبى طالب وأبو برزة الأسلمى.

Here is the link:

http://shamela.ws/browse.php/book-22592/page-620

Shia_student

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2015, 03:21:33 PM »
Or better still, have a look at this:

Ibn Hajar Asqalani in his al-Talkhees al-Habeer has stated, he collected the Hadith, "Imams are from Quraysh" fromFORTY SAHABAH:

النسائي عن أنس ، ورواه الطبراني في الدعاء والبزار والبيهقي من طرق عن أنس ، قلت : وقد جمعت طرقه في جزء مفرد عن نحو من أربعين صحابيا

التلخيص الحبير
أحمد بن علي محمد الكناني (العسقلاني)
مؤسسة قرطبة
سنة النشر: 1416هـ/1995م
رقم الطبعة: الأولى
عدد الأجزاء: أربعة أجزاء

Here is the link:

http://library.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?bk_no=11&ID=145&idfrom=1415&idto=1430&bookid=11&startno=5

Now tell me, how would you RECONCILE, the reports that claim "Khalifas will be from the Quraysh" WITH "The Imams will be from Quraysh" ?

Or due to the weight, can we say the reports of Anas bin Malik and others are more stronger, and therefore assume, Jabir may have interchanged Imams to Khalifahs?

Only helping you out bro... :)

Farid

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2015, 03:59:12 PM »
Brother, I don't think you even know what you are quoting. If you did, you wouldn't present this as evidence.

In the first post you quoted, you presented the rulings of Alalbani regarding the most authentic versions of this hadith. Due to the incompetence of whoever is feeding you this information, may Allah give him what he deserves, the full narration is as follows:

The hadith of Anas from Al Tayalsi:

"The Imams are from Quraish, if they judge; they judge fairly. If they give an oath; they stick to it. If asked for mercy; they show it. If they don't, then may the curse of Allah, his angels, and all the people be upon them. No repentance or ransom will be accepted."

Are these your Imams? Why does the Prophet peace be upon him threaten them? I thought they were infallible.

Hadith of Ali from Al Mustadrak:

"The Imams are from Quraish. The pious   of them rule the pious people, while the wicked from them rule the wicked people..."

Seems like your Imams were wicked as well.

Please present proper evidences.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 12:42:11 AM by Hani »

Shia_student

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2015, 12:22:12 AM »
Quote
Brother, I don't think you even know what you are quoting. If you did, you wouldn't present this as evidence.


Is that why you are avoiding what I have asked you to do a couple times before, and for the third time now:

How would you "reconcile" the reports, that speak about the Khalifas being from the Quraish "with" the ones that mention the Imams being from Quraish?

On top of that, I have already provided for you some reports that affirms the "authority" of the Islamic Leaders amongst the Quraish.

Now it is for you to decide , who  those Leaders were, the Khalifas or the Imams?

I have given you two possibilities. Either, agree with me or give me an alternative view.

Quote
Are these your Imams? Why does the Prophet peace be upon him threaten them? I thought they were infallible.


Leave that for me to explain. At the moment fulfil the request pls.

No matter how hard you try, I won't fall for your trap. Stick to what I have asked you. I need to prove my point and move on...

« Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 12:24:37 AM by Shia_student »

Farid

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2015, 08:18:53 AM »
Quote
How would you "reconcile" the reports, that speak about the Khalifas being from the Quraish "with" the ones that mention the Imams being from Quraish? 

On top of that, I have already provided for you some reports that affirms the "authority" of the Islamic Leaders amongst the Quraish. 

Now it is for you to decide , who  those Leaders were, the Khalifas or the Imams? 

I have given you two possibilities. Either, agree with me or give me an alternative view.

The narration of Jabir clearly says: Khalifas.

The narrations of Anas and Ali say: Imams.

Are these two narrations referring to the same exact people? The answer is no according to both Sunnis and Shias.

To Sunnis, Jabir's first narration is referring to the first twelve caliphs, while the narration of Anas and Ali are referring to caliphs in general, which goes beyond twelve.

To Shias, the narration of Jabir is referring to the Twelve Infallibles, while the narration of Anas and Ali is a rejected narration, since it implies that the Imams can be wicked, which contradicts Shiasm.

Either way, both sects are in agreement that the two hadiths are not specifically about the same people. Hence, you may not argue that the Prophet peace be upon him used to word "Imam" in the hadith of Jabir. He never said there will be Twelve Imams.

That is a direct enough answer for your wording issue.

I must thank you for providing me ammo for further debates though, I wasn't aware that the Prophet peace be upon him threatened and condemned the "Imams from Quraish" before.

Reminder: You are yet to provide a direct interpretation to the hadith.

Also, you never answered: Was Islam during the time of the Prophet peace be upon him in a state of glory?

Shia_student

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2015, 04:57:07 PM »
Quote
The narration of Jabir clearly says: Khalifas.

The narrations of Anas and Ali say: Imams.

Are these two narrations referring to the same exact people? The answer is no according to both Sunnis and Shias.

To Sunnis, Jabir's first narration is referring to the first twelve caliphs, while the narration of Anas and Ali are referring to caliphs in general, which goes beyond twelve.


First of all, what has become clear from your statement is, the Prophet used such terms interchangeably.

Ponder over your statement again:

Quote
while the narration of Anas and Ali are referring to caliphs in general


Note, they were quoting the Prophet and therefore, the change should apply to him, as an argument.

If that was case (as admitted by Hani last night too, that the Prophet used such terms interchangeably) then it is possible that the Prophet also narrated the version of "Twelve Imams" as authentically quoted by the Shia Hadith collectors.

In reference to the above, and the stage we have reached, I must remind you and others to keep my main view in mind:

[I believe, the Prophet had most likely  used the wording: "Twelve Imams" instead of "Khalifas" or "Amirs" but the narrators used what they saw fit according to circumstances...

After quoting the Shia Hadith which states: "Twelve Imams", I said:

In support of the Shia Hadith, I will use some Sunni reports to prove that instead of Amirs and Khalifahs, the Prophet had most surely used "Imams".

That is what I am and will be aiming at. There is a reason for that. It shall come out fairly soon. But that doesn't mean the view of the Prophet interchanging such terms is implausible, I am arguing my case from a preferential point of view.

Anyway, I find your interpretation of "specific" and "general" absurd.

You have tried "restricting" a general statement quoted by a good number of Sahabah: "The Imams are from the Quraysh" with the report of ONE Sahabah concerning the twelve Khalifas.

The Prophet never divided the  Khalifas into two groups, the specific and general, as you have put it.

If place two statements together:

"The Imams are from the Quraysh"
"The twelve Khalifas will be from the Quraysh"


The meaning we derive is that, the Imams and Khalifas has been used interchangeably. They will be from the Quraysh and their number will be twelve, not that they are different to each other.

According to the Shia, the twelfth Imam went into occultation, and is still living. Though u may differ with us on that but our understanding of the Hadith, cannot be dismissed based upon a difference of opinion or due to denial of a specific concept without a valid justification.

Furthermore, there are many reports that go against the interpretation which you have just adopted. Have a look at these for the moment:

Reports with "Imams":

Sahih Muslim:

It is narrated on the authority of Tamim ad-Dari that the Messenger of Allah (may peace and blessings be upon him) observed:

Al-Din is a name of sincerity and well wishing. Upon this we said: For whom? He replied: For Allah, His Book, His Messenger and for the leaders [of the Muslims) and the general Muslims.

Here's the Arabic:
 قَالَ ‏"‏ لِلَّهِ وَلِكِتَابِهِ وَلِرَسُولِهِ وَلأَئِمَّةِ الْمُسْلِمِينَ وَعَامَّتِهِمْ

Ponder over: "IMAMS OF THE MUSLIMS" and tell me, did the Prophet differentiate between the specific and the general?

These versions (amongst others) together make the following Hadith Sahih li-Ghayrihi. The Prophet said:

مات وليس عليه إمام مات ميتة جاهلية)
(من مات وليس له إمام مات ميتة جاهلية)
(ومن مات وليس عليه إمام جماعة فإن موتته موتة جاهلية)

Whoever dies without having an Imam over him, dies the death of Jahaliyah.

Tell me, why did he restrict the obedience to the Imam, after the 12 Khalifas, if they are two different groups?

Sunan Abu Dawood:

Narrated Abdullah b. 'Amr:
The Prophet (ﷺ) as saying: If a man takes an oath of allegiance to a leader, and puts his hand on his hand and does it with the sincerity of his heart, he should obey him as much as possible. If another man comes and contests him, then behead the other one..."

مَنْ بَايَعَ إِمَامًا فَأَعْطَاهُ صَفْقَةَ يَدِهِ وَثَمَرَةَ قَلْبِهِ فَلْيُطِعْهُ مَا اسْتَطَاعَ فَإِنْ جَاءَ آخَرُ يُنَازِعُهُ فَاضْرِبُوا رَقَبَةَ الآخَرِ ‏"‏ ‏.

Or are you going to say, the above rule only applies AFTER the twelve Khalifas?

Even the FIRST KHALIFAH, Abu Bakr DISAGREES with your interpretation. From Sahih al-Bukhari:

"....She asked, "From what branch of Quraish are you?" He said, "You ask too many questions; I am Abu Bakr." She said, "How long shall we enjoy this good order (i.e. Islamic religion) which Allah has brought after the period of ignorance?" He said, "You will enjoy it as long as your Imams keep on abiding by its rules and regulations." She asked, "What are the Imams?" He said, "Were there not heads and chiefs of your nation who used to order the people and they used to obey them?" She said, "Yes." He said, "So they (i.e. the Imams) are those whom I meant."

Why did he use Imams, for the early leaders, without a distinction?

Reports with Khalifas:

خلافة النبوة ثلاثون سنة ثم يؤتي الله الملك من يشاء

The Prophetic Khilafah will last for thirty years. Then Allaah will give the dominion to whomever He wills.

الخلافة بعدي في أمتي ثلاثون سنة ثم ملك بعد ذلك

The khilafah after me in my Ummah will last for thirty years. Then there will be kingship after that.

That's what you call a SPECIFIC Khilafat! The remaining were KINGS and continued even after the twelfth in your view.

I think such reports are enough to show you that the interpretation you have recently adopted was based upon DESPERATION!

Quote
I must thank you for providing me ammo for further debates though, I wasn't aware that the Prophet peace be upon him threatened and condemned the "Imams from Quraish" before.


Don't get too excited, your ignorance of the facts won't help you. Wait till I explain the Hadith.

Quote
Reminder: You are yet to provide a direct interpretation to the hadith.


Let us deal with your reconciliation issue first.  I have offered objections against your view. I don't follow blind shots without valid justifications.

Wa Salaam.












Shia_student

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2015, 08:27:56 PM »
Here is another report where the Prophet has UNIFIED the Khalifas in ONE group and not two as you have interpreted.

Both Imam Muslim and al-Bukhari have recorded from Abu Huraira that the Prophet (may pceace be upon him) said:

Banu Isra'il were ruled over by the Prophets. When one Prophet died, another succeeded him; but after me there is no prophet and there will be caliphs and they will be quite large in number. His Companions said: What do you order us to do (in case we come to have more than one Caliph)? He said: The one to whom allegiance is sworn first has a supremacy over the others. Concede to them their due rights (i. e. obey them). God (Himself) will question them about the subjects whom He had entrusted to them.

Points to consider:

A) Caliphs will be many in number (not restricted to twelve).

B) The one who is given bay'ah first, takes the leadership. (This method was to continue as long as the caliphate remained)

C) Obedience was connected each and every Caliph.

:)


« Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 08:32:42 PM by Shia_student »

Farid

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2015, 08:46:46 PM »
Quote
First of all, what has become clear from your statement is, the Prophet used such terms interchangeably.

That is not we are disagreeing about. Our issue is about this specific hadith. You are arguing that the narration of Jabir is actually worded with the term "Imams". You are yet to prove this.

In order to prove this, you have quoted the authentication of Al-Albani for narrations of Anas and Ali, both of which refer to "Imams" as infallible. I repeat, that is a different hadith. It is not the hadith of Jabir, for the simple reason that the narrations are very different. The hadith of Jabir speaks of the greatness of Islam. It also speaks about the time of Twelve Caliphs. The narrations of Anas and Ali speak about general caliphs. It provides guidelines of how they should rule. It makes no mention of numbers.

Of course, you surely reject the narration of Anas and Ali as well, since both narrations go against your Shia preconceptions of what an Imam is. Are you going to argue that secret "agents" tampered with them to?

Quote
[I believe, the Prophet had most likely  used the wording: "Twelve Imams" instead of "Khalifas" or "Amirs" but the narrators used what they saw fit according to circumstances...

No Sunni cares what you believe, brother. Provide evidences for Sunnis. "The agents did it," will not be considered as evidence.

Quote
You have tried "restricting" a general statement quoted by a good number of Sahabah: "The Imams are from the Quraysh" with the report of ONE Sahabah concerning the twelve Khalifas.

As proven above, these were different statements that were said in different occasions.

Similarly, I can easily use the same evidence against you by saying: "You have tried "restricting" a general statement quoted by a good number of Sahabah... with the report of ONE Sahabah concerning the twelve Khalifas."

You see, if you are going to use their narrations to reject the usage of the term Khalifa from the hadith of Jabir, you might as well use their narrations to reject the usage of the number twelve as well, since only Jabir mentions this.

So far, I have arrived at an observation that is worth noting. You do not believe that the hadith of Twelve Caliphs is explicit evidence of the Imamah of the Twelve. I have arrived at this conclusion since you have been arguing this point for almost a week now without providing an interpretation. You also insist that you need to prove this after explaining this in "stages". Anything that needs "stages" of explanations is not explicit evidence. You also believe that the hadith of Twelve Caliphs has been tampered with. This is problematic since no Sunni believes this. You seem to hold the view that the "correct wording" of the hadith cannot be traced to Jabir bin Samura. This is extremely problematic as well. Then, you provide alternative narrations to support your views, though, these narrations also contradict the Shia view of Imamah, but you see to pick and choose what you like from the narration and perhaps blame the "agents" for wordings that you don't like.

Am I correct so far?

Farid

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2015, 08:50:07 PM »
You seem to be under the impression that I believe that the word "Imam" is only used for a group and that the term "Caliph" can only be used for another group.

I never said such a thing. This is misunderstanding is from yourself.

I said that the hadith of Jabir's wording was "Caliph" and that the hadith of Anas and Ali says "Imam" and that the Prophet peace be upon him used different wordings on different occasions.

Most importantly, when referring to twelve people, he only referred to them as Caliphs.

Shia_student

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2015, 01:10:35 AM »
Quote
You are arguing that the narration of Jabir is actually worded with the term "Imams". You are yet to prove this.


I didn't categorically state that the Hadith of the Jabir is actually worded with "Imams". I argued about its possibility because we find Imams and Khalifas being used interchangeably.

Quote
In order to prove this, you have quoted the authentication of Al-Albani for narrations of Anas and Ali, both of which refer to "Imams" as infallible. I repeat, that is a different hadith. It is not the hadith of Jabir, for the simple reason that the narrations are very different...


I know the reports are different in wording but they are referring to the SAME MEN, whether you call them Imams or Khalifahs and that is what I was trying to establish since you DENIED that by stating:

Quote
The narration of Jabir clearly says: Khalifas.

The narrations of Anas and Ali say: Imams.

Are these two narrations referring to the same exact people? The answer is no according to both Sunnis and Shias.


Therefore, whatever you have stated in succession to your your view that the reports are different, becomes irrelevant. The issue is NOT that the reports are different. The issue is
if they relate to the same MEN.

Try proving your negation again:

Quote
Are these two narrations referring to the same exact people? The answer is no


With the light of the reports I have used against you.

Thank you.

------------------------

You delivered a second response and stated:

Quote
You seem to be under the impression that I believe that the word "Imam" is only used for a group and that the term "Caliph" can only be used for another group


That is what I understood from these words:

Quote
To Sunnis, Jabir's first narration is referring to the first twelve caliphs, while the narration of Anas and Ali are referring to caliphs in general, which goes beyond twelve.


See, you divided the Caliphs into two groups. The 12 caliphs as specific and the remaining caliphs as  general.

The only reports that make a distinction, are those that speak about Khalifahs and KINGS, not the caliphs and Imams or the former Caliphs with the latter!

Then u said:

Quote
I said that the hadith of Jabir's wording was "Caliph" and that the hadith of Anas and Ali says "Imam" and that the Prophet peace be upon him used different wordings on different occasions.


Thank you! You have only affirmed what I had stated previously:

Quote
What was common amongst the Sahabah was that they used, "Imam" for the Muslim leader, as did the Prophet himself...


Then you said:

Quote
Most importantly, when referring to twelve people, he only referred to them as Caliphs.


You have said that in desperation. If you didn't, then can you inform me:

As admitted by you, the Prophet used different wordings on different occasions, AND IF THAT WAS THE CASE, then why did he choose to RESTRICT himself to the term, "Khalifahs" ONLY when it came to the Leadership of twelve men?

The only reason, he could have done that was to HIGHLIGHT a difference  between the Imams and the Khalifahs, but that would contradict the act of interchanging such terms, if they were NOT EQUIVALENT  to one another.

Besides, the following statement also opposes such a view:

"The Imams are from Quraysh"

The above phrase is general and includes the MEN of Jabir's Hadith too.

Please remove my confusion, without having jump towards irrelevant issues, as you have been doing recently.

Thank you.

































Farid

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2015, 04:17:55 AM »
We are at a point in which we are going in circles.

You have provided your "evidence" as to why you believed he used the words "Imams". I have refuted them accordingly. If you were expecting me to budge then you are mistaken. In your eyes, due to your delusions, you perhaps see me as stubborn. Regardless, your audience is not one man, but rather, every reader of this post.

That being said, for the sake of the argument, let's say that the Prophet peace be upon him referred to them as Imams. Who are these Imams and what does this hadith have to do with Shiasm?

 

Shia_student

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2015, 12:39:18 PM »
First of all, I knew you were going to dodge my final question. When you sense something you can't really answer with a plausible reason, you either deface the discussion or start assuming things.

Anyhow you said:

Quote
You have provided your "evidence" as to why you believed he used the words "Imams". I have refuted them accordingly


You haven't refuted anything yet, rather you have been "differing" with me. Get a dictionary and see what's the difference.

Quote
That being said, for the sake of the argument, let's say that the Prophet peace be upon him referred to them as Imams. Who are these Imams and what does this hadith have to do with Shiasm?


Why for the sake of argument, when we can reasonably argue, he did use Imams?

Secondly, you can't dismiss a question with a question. Answer my objection so that we can reach what you have enquired about. We are almost there now.

I repeat:

Quote
As admitted by you, the Prophet used different wordings on different occasions, AND IF THAT WAS THE CASE, then why did he choose to RESTRICT himself to the term, "Khalifahs" ONLY when it came to the Leadership of twelve men?


I even gave you a reason to assist you:

Quote
The only reason, he could have done that was to HIGHLIGHT a difference  between the Imams and the Khalifahs, but that would contradict the act of interchanging such terms, if they were NOT EQUIVALENT  to one another.


If you have a better explanation then please go ahead. I know you want to AVOID the question but I insist, it is related to your enquiry.

Thank you.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 12:42:06 PM by Shia_student »

Farid

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2015, 01:01:38 PM »
Quote
Why for the sake of argument, when we can reasonably argue, he did use Imams?

Refer to previous posts.

We are going around in circles now. I have provided my explanations and refutations. I have nothing more to add in the topic of the wording of the hadith of Twelve Caliphs. The readers will ultimately decide who is making sense here.

Please continue with the rest of your explanation.

Shia_student

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2015, 01:32:19 PM »
At this current stage, we are NOT going in circles! We have arrived at a scene where you stated:

Quote
Most importantly, when referring to twelve people, he only referred to them as Caliphs.


That's a NEW assumption from you.

I'm curious in knowing why did the Prophet restrict his wording to Khalifahs ONLY, when you admitted:

Quote
the Prophet peace be upon him used different wordings on different occasions.


Please provide an answer, it is related to my arguments.

Without it, I will not carry on. Seems I was right. You had stated that in your "DESPERATION".

 

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