TwelverShia.net Forum

Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Shia_student

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2015, 02:08:45 PM »
Please read the above, prior to reading the following.

I think you are forgetting, why I am stressing that you answer my question.

Let me remind you. I had made it clear:

Quote
I believe, the Prophet had most likely used the wording: "Twelve Imams" instead of "Khalifas" or "Amirs", but the narrators used what they saw fit according to circumstances. There was a trend of using all three terms interchangeably.


And also:

Quote
We can now safely say, the Prophet spoke about the TWEVE Imams of the Quraish but Jabir bin Samura or someone else in the chain used Amirs and Khalifas, depending on their choice and period.


But your new explanation carrying a "restriction"conflicts with my view.

I don't want to rest with the wording, "Imams" just for the sake of an argument. I don't build my beliefs upon guesswork. I'd rather work hard and prove to the readers, that such an interpretation is plausible based upon logic and textual evidence.

There is a reason, why I want to restrict it to the Imams, just as you had a reason to restrict it to the Khalifas. ;)
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 02:11:53 PM by Shia_student »

Farid

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2015, 02:15:09 PM »
Quote
I'm curious in knowing why did the Prophet restrict his wording to Khalifahs ONLY

Why did he choose a specific wording? That is supposed to be a serious question? Not knowing the reason of why he chose a wording is evidence that a wording is incorrect?

As long as there are no evidences for any other wording, no objective person can choose another.

Quote
Without it, I will not carry on. 

I will not budge and go against the evidence that the word used is "Caliphs."

Nobody needs you to carry on except for the Shias that have hopes for you bro.

If you choose to bow out then I understand.


Shia_student

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2015, 03:48:50 PM »
You will be glad if I go. :)

Quote
Why did he choose a specific wording? That is supposed to be a serious question?


That was based upon your argument that the Prophet restricted to the Khalifas only. Hence the question is valid. Don't be daft Farid.

Quote
Not knowing the reason of why he chose a wording is evidence that a wording is incorrect?


The question was related to a specific restriction, regardless of it being correct or incorrect.

Besides, why did you make that assumption when didn't have a clue about it, nor did you have any EVIDENCES to back it up except the report of Jabir bin Samurah?

To add spices to your desperation, I am sorry to say, the report of Jabir is not a sufficient evidence to use in order to suggest that the Prophet restricted his wording to the Khalifahs only, why?

Because we have authentic  reports, where the wording, "Amirs" has been used by Jabir too.

I know you mentioned some names of those who quoted Him expressing the wording, "Khalifas", however if you had done extra digging you would have found further reports, where 5 of his students also narrated from Jabir using the wording, "Amirs".

We start with al-Bukhari. Why did he restrict his report to the Amirs version? Because in his view that was most authentic.

Here is his version:

(حديث مرفوع) حَدَّثَنِي مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْمُثَنَّى ، حَدَّثَنَا غُنْدَرٌ ، حَدَّثَنَا شُعْبَةُ ، عَنْ عَبْدِ الْمَلِكِ ، سَمِعْتُ جَابِرَ بْنَ سَمُرَةَ ، قَالَ : سَمِعْتُ النَّبِيَّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ، يَقُولُ : " يَكُونُ اثْنَا عَشَرَ أَمِيرًا ، فَقَالَ كَلِمَةً لَمْ أَسْمَعْهَا ، فَقَالَ أَبِي ، إِنَّهُ قَالَ : كُلُّهُمْ مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ " .
 We have 'Abd al-Malik from Jabir.

From the collection, Mustakhraj Abi Awanah:

حديث مرفوع) حَدَّثَنَا ابْنُ شَاذَانَ الْجَوْهَرِيُّ ، قثنا عَلِيُّ بْنُ الْجَعْدِ ، قثنا زُهَيْرٌ ، عَنْ سِمَاكٍ ، وَزِيَادِ بْنِ عِلاقَةَ ، وَحُصَيْنٍ ، كلهم ، عَنْ جَابِرِ بْنِ سَمُرَةَ ، أَنّ النَّبِيَّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ : " يَكُونُ بَعْدِي اثْنَا عَشَرَ أَمِيرًا كُلُّهُمْ مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ " .

Here is its mutaba'at, though it is weak in its isnad, the above Sahih, supports its condition.

حديث مرفوع) حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى السَّابِرِيُّ ، قَالَ : ثنا بُكَيْرُ بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ الْجُرْجَانِيُّ الزَّاهِدُ ، عَنْ أَبِي خَيْثَمَةَ ، عَنْ سِمَاكٍ ، وَزِيَادِ بْنِ عِلاقَةَ ، وَحُصَيْنِ بْنِ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ ، كلهم ، عَنْ جَابِرِ بْنِ سَمُرَةَ ، عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ، قَالَ : " يَكُونُ بَعْدِي اثْنَا عَشَرَ أَمِيرًا كُلُّهُمْ مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ "

So we have Simak, Ziyad and Husain who reported from Jabir.

An additional name: 

قَالَ : سَمِعْتُ النَّبِيَّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَقُولُ : " يَكُونُ بَعْدِي اثْنَا عَشَرَ أَمِيرًا " ، ثُمَّ تَكَلَّمَ فَخَفِيَ عَلَيَّ ، فَسَأَلْتُ الَّذِي يَلِينِي أَوْ بَعْضَ الْقَوْمِ ، فَقَالَ : " كُلُّهُمْ مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ " ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو زُرْعَةَ الرَّازِيُّ ، قثنا عُبَيْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ عُمَرَ ، قَالَ : ثنا عُمَرُ بْنُ عُبَيْدٍ ، قَالَ : حَدَّثَنِي أَبِي ، عَنْ أَبِي بَكْرِ بْنِ أَبِي مُوسَى ، عَنْ جَابِرِ بْنِ سَمُرَةَ ، عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ، بِمِثْلِهِ .

Abi Bakr bin Abi Musa from Jabir.

So there are about FIVE witnesses that I have discovered, who have reported the "AMIR" version.

I can understand, if ONE person has made a mistake, not FIVE!

There are further proofs against your assumption but that should suffice.

Now on what basis will you restrict it to the Khalifahs alone?

If the Prophet could have used Khalifas and Amirs, then what could have stopped from using the MOST COMMON TERM, the Imams?
 
Thank you.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 03:56:32 PM by Shia_student »

Farid

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2015, 03:58:10 PM »
Quote
To add spices to your desperation, I am sorry to say, the report of Jabir is not a sufficient evidence to use in order to suggest that the Prophet restricted his wording to the Khalifahs only, why? 

Because we have authentic  reports, where the wording, "Amirs" has been used by Jabir too.

I know you mentioned some names of those who quoted Him expressing the wording, "Khalifas", however if you had done extra digging you would have found further reports, where 5 of his students also narrated from Jabir using the wording, "Amirs".

We start with al-Bukhari. Why did he restrict his report to the Amirs version? Because in his view that was most authentic. 

Here is his version:

(حديث مرفوع) حَدَّثَنِي مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْمُثَنَّى ، حَدَّثَنَا غُنْدَرٌ ، حَدَّثَنَا شُعْبَةُ ، عَنْ عَبْدِ الْمَلِكِ ، سَمِعْتُ جَابِرَ بْنَ سَمُرَةَ ، قَالَ : سَمِعْتُ النَّبِيَّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ، يَقُولُ : " يَكُونُ اثْنَا عَشَرَ أَمِيرًا ، فَقَالَ كَلِمَةً لَمْ أَسْمَعْهَا ، فَقَالَ أَبِي ، إِنَّهُ قَالَ : كُلُّهُمْ مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ " .
 We have 'Abd al-Malik from Jabir.

From the collection, Mustakhraj Abi Awanah:

حديث مرفوع) حَدَّثَنَا ابْنُ شَاذَانَ الْجَوْهَرِيُّ ، قثنا عَلِيُّ بْنُ الْجَعْدِ ، قثنا زُهَيْرٌ ، عَنْ سِمَاكٍ ، وَزِيَادِ بْنِ عِلاقَةَ ، وَحُصَيْنٍ ، كلهم ، عَنْ جَابِرِ بْنِ سَمُرَةَ ، أَنّ النَّبِيَّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ : " يَكُونُ بَعْدِي اثْنَا عَشَرَ أَمِيرًا كُلُّهُمْ مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ " .

Here is its mutaba'at, though it is weak in its isnad, the above Sahih, supports its condition. 

حديث مرفوع) حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى السَّابِرِيُّ ، قَالَ : ثنا بُكَيْرُ بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ الْجُرْجَانِيُّ الزَّاهِدُ ، عَنْ أَبِي خَيْثَمَةَ ، عَنْ سِمَاكٍ ، وَزِيَادِ بْنِ عِلاقَةَ ، وَحُصَيْنِ بْنِ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ ، كلهم ، عَنْ جَابِرِ بْنِ سَمُرَةَ ، عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ، قَالَ : " يَكُونُ بَعْدِي اثْنَا عَشَرَ أَمِيرًا كُلُّهُمْ مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ " 

So we have Simak, Ziyad and Husain who reported from Jabir.

An additional name:  

قَالَ : سَمِعْتُ النَّبِيَّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَقُولُ : " يَكُونُ بَعْدِي اثْنَا عَشَرَ أَمِيرًا " ، ثُمَّ تَكَلَّمَ فَخَفِيَ عَلَيَّ ، فَسَأَلْتُ الَّذِي يَلِينِي أَوْ بَعْضَ الْقَوْمِ ، فَقَالَ : " كُلُّهُمْ مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ " ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو زُرْعَةَ الرَّازِيُّ ، قثنا عُبَيْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ عُمَرَ ، قَالَ : ثنا عُمَرُ بْنُ عُبَيْدٍ ، قَالَ : حَدَّثَنِي أَبِي ، عَنْ أَبِي بَكْرِ بْنِ أَبِي مُوسَى ، عَنْ جَابِرِ بْنِ سَمُرَةَ ، عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ، بِمِثْلِهِ .

Abi Bakr bin Abi Musa from Jabir.

So there are about FIVE witnesses that I have discovered, who have reported the "AMIR" version. 

I can understand, if ONE person has made a mistake, not FIVE! 

There are further proofs against your assumption but that should suffice.

Now on what basis will you restrict it to the Khalifahs alone?

And if the Prophet could have used Khalifas and Amirs, then what could have stopped from using the MOST COMMON TERM, the Imams?

Good post. I will review this and provide my analysis.

Shia_student

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2015, 04:20:05 PM »
Quote
Good post. I will review this and provide my analysis.


Thank you. If I am delayed in answering then bear with me.


Farid

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2015, 10:08:01 PM »
Due the complexity of the matter and the request of brother Shia_Student, I've analyzed the two wordings of "Ameer" and "Caliph" from the hadith of Jabir bin Samura. I have included my conclusions below for those that do not have the time to follow closely to the technical material.

@Shia_Student:

You have provided the names of five Tabi’een that have narrated this narration from Jabir bin Samura. These men are:

Abdulmalik bin Umair, Husain bin Abdulrahman, Simak, Ziyad bin Ilaqa, and Abu Bakr bin Abi Musa.
Let’s analyze if they did indeed narrate such narrations.

1- Abdulmalik bin Umair
As you have pointed out, the narration of Abdulmalik bin Umair does indeed include the term “Ameer” in the narration of Al-Bukhari. I have already pointed this out in my original article which I have linked to. I have also included narrations from Abdulmalik bin Umair from other paths. Here is the quote from my original article:
Quote
1- Al-Bukhari (#6682) narrated through the path of Shu’ba from Abdulmalik from Jabir bin Samura that the Prophet – peace be upon him – said that there will be twelve amirs. Shu’ba narrates it in this short form, which others, like Sufyan in Saheeh Muslim (#3394) and Abu Abd Al-Samad Al-Ami in Musnad Ahmad (#20019) narrated a lengthier form from Abdulmalik. The former said: The matters of the people will continue to progress as long as they are led by twelve men. The latter said: This religion will stay at a state of glory or the people will be in a good state until the passing of twelve caliphs.

I also add that Sufyan, in Musnad Ahmad #20017 and #20018 refers to them as Ameer, in his narration from Abdulmalik bin Umair. This is also in Al-Tabarani’s Kabeer #1833. Each of these come from a different narrator from Sufyan.
In Al-Tabarani’s Kabeer #1843, we have another narration from the path of Sufyan that uses the term “Caliph”.
In other words, the narrations of Sufyan have three men using the word “Ameer”, one using the word “men” and one using the word “Caliph”.
In the light of the above, most narrators have narrated it from Sufyan with the term “Ameer.” This means that Sufyan’s correct narration from Abdulmalik contains the word “Ameer”.
This is supported by the narration of Shu’ba bin Al-Hajjaj. The only other narration that includes the word “Caliph” from Abdulmalik is the narration of the narration Abu Abdulsamad.
However, according to Sunni rijali standards, the narration of Shu’ba and Sufyan bin Uyayna single-handedly are stronger than the narration of Abu Abdulsamad, since both men are major huffath of hadith. With their combined agreement on the correct wording from Abdulmalik bin Umair, there leaves no doubt that Abu Abdulsamad erred in his wording and that the correct wording from Abdulmalik bin Umair is “Ameer”.
Conclusion: Abdulmalik said, “Ameer”.

2- Husain bin Abdulrahman
He has a narration from Saheeh Muslim #3393 from Khalid bin Abdullah Al-Tahhan that uses the word “Caliph”.
He has another narration from Al-Tabarani’s Kabeer #2034 from the narration of Jareer that uses the word “Ameer”.
He has another narration from Mustakhraj Abi Awana #5628/#5629 from Zai’dah and another from Abthar, which both use the word “Caliph.”
As we can see here, three narrators have mentioned the term “Caliph”, while only one has used the term “Ameer”.
Conclusion: Husain said, “Caliph”.

Note: You have provided a narration from the path of Abu Khaithama Zuhair. However, this narration combines the narrations of several tabi’een. It says that Zuhair heard from Simak, Ziyad bin Ilaqa, and Husain narrate this hadith from Jabir. I did not use this as evidence for the narration of Husain, since hadithists sometimes have a habit of narrating one narration with different wordings with different chains, then grouping up narrators even though wordings are different.
Of course, I do not use this evidence against you alone, but I use it against myself. If you observe the narration of Jareer from Husain in Saheeh Muslim #3393, you will see that it is a narration combined with the narration of Khalid Al-Tahhan. However, I did not mention Jareer in the list of narrations in the list since it is a combined narration and I am not certain if he used the word “Caliph” or “Ameer”.

3- Simak
We find him narrating with the word “Caliph” in the narrations of Hammad bin Salama (Muslim #3395).
We also find him narrating with the word “Ameer” in the narrations of Amr bin Ubaid (Al-Tirmithi #2149), Shu’ba (Ahmad #19920), Zuhair (Ahmad #19946), Isra’eel (Al-Tabarani in Al-Kabeer #1890), Zakariyah bin Abi Za’idah (Al-Tabarani in Al-Kabeer#1974), and Amr bin Abi Qais (Al-Tabarani in Al-Kabeer #2012).
Note: I did not use the narration of Zakariyah bin Abi Za’idah in Al-Mustakhraj #5631 as evidence from Caliph since it is a combined report. It is also established that Zakariyah narrated using the word “Ameer”, which makes it more likely that this is not his chosen wording.
In summary, we find him only narrating using the word “Caliph” in the narration of Hammad bin Salama, while according to six other narrators, he used the word “Ameer”. It is safe to say that Hammad bin Salama erred in this narration since he went against the majority.
Conclusion: Simak said, “Ameer.”

4- Ziyad bin Ilaqa
He narrated in Mu’jam Al-Tabarani (#2028) that he narrated using the term “Ameer”.

5- Abu Bakr bin Abi Musa
All the narrations of Abi Bakr bin Abi Musa that I have seen are combined chains and I cannot be sure of his wording.

6- Al-Sha’bi
He narrated in Saheeh Muslim (#3396) using the word “Caliph”.

7- Amer bin Sa’ad bin Abi Waqqas
He narrated in Saheeh Muslim (#3398) using the word “Caliph”.

8- Abu Khalid the father of Isma’eel
He narrated in Sunan Al-Tirmithi (#3731) using the word “Caliph”.

9- Al-Aswad bin Sa’eed Al-Hamadani
He narrated Musnad Ahmad (#19944) using the word “Caliph”.

10- Al-Musayyab bin Rafi’
He narration in Al-Mu’jam Al-Kabeer by Al-Tabarani (#1850) using the word “Ameer”.

11- Al-Nadhr bin Salih
He narration in Al-Mu’jam Al-Kabeer by Al-Tabarani (#2027) using the word “Ameer”.

12- M’abad bin Khalid
He narration in Al-Mu’jam Al-Awsat by Al-Tabarani (#4085) using the word “Ameer”.

13- Khalid bin Jabir bin Samura
He narrated using the word “Caliph” in Musnad Al-Bazzar (#4284).

From the above, we have found evidences that the following narrators said “Caliph”:
Husain bin Abdulrahman – Al-Sha’bi – Amer bin Sa’ad – Abu Khalid – Al-Aswad bin Sa’eed – Khalid bin Jabir bin Samura

From the above, we have found evidences that the following narrators said “Ameer”:
Abdulmalik bin Umair – Simak – Ziyad bin Ilaqa – Al-Musayyib bin Rafi’– Al-Nadhr bin Salih  – M’abad bin Khalid

Bolded narrators are the ones that are reliable and have had this narration correctly attributed to them.

CONCLUSION:

In light of the above evidences, I have come to the conclusion that Jabir bin Samura may have narrated this hadith many times and would narrate it using the words “Caliph” and “Ameer” interchangeably. No other wordings have anywhere close to as many chains as these two wordings with as many decent chains.

However, if I was going to choose one specific wording over the other, I would still choose the term “Caliph”. Not only because there are more reliable people narrating the hadith, but because those that used the term “Caliph” are easily more reliable than those that said “Ameer”. Refer to the biographies of Al-Sha’abi and Husain bin Abdulrahman for proof of their high reliability. 

It is important to be aware that the main reason that I have changed my ijtihad on this issue is because my original article was focused on the narrators of the Saheehain that have narrated this report. I have mentioned this in my article of course. If I had originally put more effort into collecting more chains from the beginning I would not have been as sure as I was that the correct wording is "Caliph", but rather, both "Caliph" and "Ameer" have weight.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 10:25:20 PM by Farid »

Shia_student

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2015, 04:33:52 AM »
Thanks for the response.

Quote
In light of the above evidences, I have come to the conclusion that Jabir bin Samura may have narrated this hadith many times and would narrate it using the words “Caliph” and “Ameer” interchangeably.


Well that is now clear. Good.

Quote
However, if I was going to choose one specific wording over the other, I would still choose the term “Caliph”. Not only because there are more reliable people narrating the hadith, but because those that used the term “Caliph” are easily more reliable than those that said “Ameer”. Refer to the biographies of Al-Sha’abi and Husain bin Abdulrahman for proof of their high reliability.


You must have thought, you made a  smart move by expressing the above. I'm sorry to say, you are naive when it comes to certain issues.

You have opted to choose Caliphs over Amirs, due to few extra narrators reporting that version and in relation to the matter of reliability.

Well, let me inform you of something, that does NOT mean anything  to me.

The issue of a MISTAKE or DOUBT arises when we hear a report from a SINGLE person. Even if just three individuals have heard Jabir stating the AMIR version, that should be "sufficient" for both of us.

However, you have counted 6 men reporting from him. What was the chance of ALL OF THEM committing the SAME mistake?

Since the mistake cannot be attributed to a group of men reporting from the SAME individual, your preference by ignoring the term Amirs fails.

The best I can do is agree that the term "Khalifahs" was used more commonly than the Amirs, but the latter cannot be denied because of the commonality issue. Keep that in mind.

Now having corrected you, that leads me to the point of asking you:

If it was Jabir who interchanged between Caliphs and Amirs, LIKE YOU HAVE AGREED, then tell me, what caused him to refrain from using, "Imams" for the Hadith of twelve Leaders?

I have brought to your attention many reports which verify that such a term was commonly used by the Prophet too, then on what BASIS did the companion use Amirs or more predominately the Khalifahs version only?

Do you want me to be blunt and reveal one of such reasons? Ok I will, but don't reject my opinion just because you may differ with it. Only raise objections against it, if it is unreasonable.

From the time of Ibrahim (as), the divine Imamah descended through his progeny line. It reached the final Prophet of Allah and then was transferred over to Imam Ali (as)... 

Then how the circumstances played their part, the Sunnah of divine designation was overlooked and Abu Bakr became the first Khalifah of the Muslims...

This term then took a specific meaning amongst he Sunnis AS IT IS TODAY.

They called any person a Khalifah who was selected into power by the majority.  Many narrations were coined with that meaning just to have it established. Take a look at these examples:

The Prophet claimed that Khilafat will succeed Prophethood:

Al-Muslim and Al-Bukhari recorded from Abu Huraira that the Prophet (may pceace be upon him) said:

Banu Isra'il were ruled over by the Prophets. When one Prophet died, another succeeded him; but after me there is no prophet and there will be caliphs and they will be quite large in number...

Abu Bakr was seen as an appointed Khalifah. Imam al-Bukhari recorded.

Narrated `Aisha:
When Abu Bakr As-Siddiq was chosen Caliph, he said, "My people know that my profession was not incapable of providing substance to my family. And as I will be busy serving the Muslim nation, my family will eat from the National Treasury of Muslims, and I will practice the profession of serving the Muslims."

Sahih al-Bukhari:

Narrated Anas:
That when Abu Bakr became the Caliph, he sent him to Bahrain and wrote this letter for him, and stamped it with the Ring of the Prophet. Three lines were engraved on the Ring, (the word) 'Muhammad' was in a line, 'Apostle' was in another line, and 'Allah' in a third.

The same term was used during Umar's time. al-Bukhari and Muslim recorded.

Narrated `Abdullah bin `Umar:
It was said to `Umar, "Will you appoint your successor?" `Umar said, "If I appoint a Caliph (as my successor) it is true that somebody who was better than I (i.e., Abu Bakr) did so, and if I leave the matter undecided, it is true that somebody who was better than I (i.e., Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)) did so." On this, the people praised him. `Umar said, "People are of two kinds: Either one who is keen to take over the Caliphate or one who is afraid of assuming such a responsibility. I wish I could be free from its responsibility in that I would receive neither reward nor retribution I won't bear the burden of the caliphate in my death as I do in my life."

Sahih Muslim:

Abu Huraira: "...When Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) died, this was the practice, and it continued thus during Abu Bakr's caliphate and the early part of 'Umar's caliphate...

Anyhow, in order to keep their system of Khilafah ALIVE and distinct from the Shias, the Ahlul-Sunnah empathised mostly on using Khalifahs.

Whenever they got an opportunity, they used that term instead of Imams, not because of the interchange issue, rather, for the sake of opposition and establishment.

Jabir bin Samurah, either willingly or through compulsion, narrated the
Hadith of the twelve successors in a way that suited the Ahlul-Sunnah view.

They tried all sorts, to give weight to the Khalifate system, but Allah is the master of all affairs. He preserved many truths in connection with the Imams, though many Muslims were averse to them.

Yes we do not have an explicit version of the "twelve Imams" in the Sunnis books, but what they can't deny is, when we place all the reports together to form an interpretation, the results are in accordance to the Shia view.

The version of Twelve Khalifas, can still be used to refer to the twelve Imams, because of other "reconciliatory" evidences.

If you think that my opinion is incorrect, then try "reconciling" the following reports with another, ONCE AGAIN:

"The Imams are from the Quraysh" "The Khalifahs will be from the Quraysh"

Your previous argument of the specific and general issue was crap! Then we got drifted again, because of your new view that the Prophet restricted himself to the term, Khalifas...

Finally, you have admitted that the interchange came from Jabir between Amirs and Caliphs... We can now continue from the point of reconciliation so that I can prove to you what I have stated above...

Or are going to dodge the question as usual and say we are going in circles?

:)

Farid

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2015, 08:35:57 AM »
Quote
However, you have counted 6 men reporting from him. What was the chance of ALL OF THEM committing the SAME mistake?

Since the mistake cannot be attributed to a group of men reporting from the SAME individual, your preference by ignoring the term Amirs fails.

This is a strange comment, since you know that I lean towards that view that Jabir used both terms now. You said in your last post, "Finally, you have admitted that the interchange came from Jabir between Amirs and Caliphs..."

Quote
If it was Jabir who interchanged between Caliphs and Amirs, LIKE YOU HAVE AGREED, then tell me, what caused him to refrain from using, "Imams" for the Hadith of twelve Leaders?

He did not refrain from narrating such. He never heard the usage of the term "Imam" in the hadith.

Jabir's interchanging usage of the term "Caliph" and "Ameer" is like saying, "The Prophet peace be upon him said that Islam will be in a state of greatness until the passing of twelve Caliphs or Ameers."

As a Sunni, since the narration was only said by the Prophet peace be upon him once, there perhaps is no way of knowing which of the two words he used, since there is a 50-50 chance of either.

In the eyes of a Sunni, the possibility that Jabir may have erred in the wording is possible. One may argue that one can be 47% sure that the Prophet peace be upon him used the word "Ameer", then another 47% for the word "Caliph", then the remaining 6% may be used for any number of words, like "Sultan", "Rajul", "Hakim", "Malik", and "Imam", etc. However, there is no Sunni that would choose any of the latter wordings and attribute it to the Prophet peace be upon him since there is the evidence that he used "Ameer" or "Caliph" in this very hadith largely outweighs the other possibilities, especially since it is extremely unlikely that Jabir's memory failed him twice.

Quote
I have brought to your attention many reports which verify that such a term was commonly used by the Prophet too, then on what BASIS did the companion use Amirs or more predominately the Khalifahs version only?

He narrated what he heard or what he remembered that he heard. It is not an academical opinion to suggest a different wording based on a completely different hadith that occurred in a different event.

Quote
Jabir bin Samurah, either willingly or through compulsion, narrated the
Hadith of the twelve successors in a way that suited the Ahlul-Sunnah view.

Now we are getting somewhere. You hold the opinion that this narration by Jabir is not due to a mistake, but rather, it was an intentional blotting out of the term "Imam" by Jabir.

Do you have any evidence as to why Sunnis should not accept Jabir as reliable? Why should Sunnis consider him an "agent"?

Quote
Yes we do not have an explicit version of the "twelve Imams" in the Sunnis books, but what they can't deny is, when we place all the reports together to form an interpretation, the results are in accordance to the Shia view.

The version of Twelve Khalifas, can still be used to refer to the twelve Imams, because of other "reconciliatory" evidences.

I am glad that you have finally admitted that there is no clear evidence from Sunni sources for the Imamah of the Twelve and that the only way to reach such a conclusion is by bringing bits and pieces of hadith together. By taking parts of narrations that you like, mixing and matching them to suit your beliefs, while accusing the rest of being manipulated by "agents", you may arrive at your goal in your own mind.


Farid

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2015, 09:02:07 AM »
Brother Shia_Student, would you mind providing the correct wording of the hadith. All I have seen from you are accusations without providing the proper text.

Is it: "Islam will be in a state of greatness until the passing of Twelve Imams?" or "Islam will have Twelve Imams?" or something different entirely?

Shia_student

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2015, 02:40:50 PM »
Quote
This is a strange comment, since you know that I lean towards that view that Jabir used both terms now...


Yes but you tried making a preference based upon the narrators of "Caliphs" being more reliable... More reliable means nothing, when the other statement is proven.

Anyway not an important issue...

Quote
He did not refrain from narrating such. He never heard the usage of the term "Imam" in the hadith.


How can you be so sure Farid? You make categorical statements without  proof of some sort.

Why couldn't he have refrained from narrating such a version when you are aware of Umar bin Khattab's nature? Wasn't he the type of a person who would investigate and see what type reports were being spread? Didn't he restrict many Sahabah from narrating specific Ahadith?

You also said:

Quote
Now we are getting somewhere. You hold the opinion that this narration by Jabir is not due to a mistake, but rather, it was an intentional blotting out of the term "Imam" by Jabir.

Do you have any evidence as to why Sunnis should not accept Jabir as reliable? Why should Sunnis consider him an "agent"?


Read my statement again:

Quote
Jabir bin Samurah, either willingly or through compulsion, narrated the Hadith of the twelve successors in a way that suited the Ahlul-Sunnah view.


I said, either willingly OR through compulsion...

Secondly I could also relate such a view to the students of Jabir, or others below them, because the Ummayds kept the reports under observation too. You must be aware of Muawiyah bin Abu Sufyan's call:

"..Beware of spreading the Hadith except those that were known during the reign of `Umar ibn al-Khattab..."(Sahih Muslim)

Quote
I am glad that you have finally admitted that there is no clear evidence from Sunni sources for the Imamah of the Twelve...


How silly of you Farid. I only spoke about the absence of a PARTICULAR Hadith not the absence of Imamah as a whole.

What is missing (due to political reasons) is the just the NUMBER (twelve) in relation to the Imams of AhlulBayt, NOT the multiple Hadith which substantiate their right to the Islamic Leadership.

What do these words mean to you:

THE IMAMS OF THE QURAYSH
THE IMAMS OF THE MUSLIMS

Do they apply to the KHALIFAS?

That's the part where you have REFRAINED from making a CATEGORICAL submission again!

I stated:

Quote
The version of Twelve Khalifas, can still be used to refer to the twelve Imams, because of other "reconciliatory" evidences.

If you think that my opinion is incorrect, then try "reconciling" the following reports with another, ONCE AGAIN:

"The Imams are from the Quraysh" "The Khalifahs will be from the Quraysh"

Your previous argument of the specific and general issue was crap! Then we got drifted again, because of your new view that the Prophet restricted himself to the term, Khalifas...


Now don't waste time. You have avoided the reconciliation step many times now. I need to give my side of the view too.

If the reports under question can be reconciled, then go ahead, make SOME SENSE this time.

If they can't be then you have a PROBLEM!

Thank you!
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 02:44:06 PM by Shia_student »

Shia_student

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #50 on: August 25, 2015, 02:51:26 PM »
You need to understand, before we can move on, I need to be clear from your side, whether you take the Khalifas and the Imams as the same people or not.

If they are, then the number twelve applies to them also.

If they are not, then I need an explain of the difference between the two.

Thanks.

Farid

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #51 on: August 25, 2015, 05:57:24 PM »
Quote
How can you be so sure Farid? You make categorical statements without  proof of some sort.

Why couldn't he have refrained from narrating such a version when you are aware of Umar bin Khattab's nature? Wasn't he the type of a person who would investigate and see what type reports were being spread? Didn't he restrict many Sahabah from narrating specific Ahadith?

Jabir narrated this hadith after the time of Omar.

Proof: Husain bin Abdulrahman was born in the year 43AH, twenty years after the death of Omar. So, to say that Omar had any role in causing Jabir to change his wordings is false.

Quote
You need to understand, before we can move on, I need to be clear from your side, whether you take the Khalifas and the Imams as the same people or not.

When the Prophet peace be upon him spoke about twelve men, he referred to them as caliphs/ameers.
When the Prophet peace be upon him spoke about general rulers of the Islamic empire, he referred to them as many things. He referred to them as Sultan and Ameer (Al-Bukhari #6530). He also referred to them as Imams, as you have nicely pointed out. You see, we do not believe that rulers are restricted to twelve, which is why I have said that these different wordings are used for rulers in the general sense, while the terms "caliph" and "ameer" were only used in the hadith of Jabir to refer to the twelve. 



Shia_student

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #52 on: August 25, 2015, 10:32:55 PM »
Quote
Jabir narrated this hadith after the time of Omar.


Regardless! My statements were not restricted to Umar's age. When I stated:

Quote:
"Didn't he restrict many Sahabah from narrating specific Ahadith?"

I meant it for his era and beyond. Had the restrictions been limited to his rule only, that would have jeopardised the future of his successors. It was a necessity to keep the narrators of Hadith in check.

Besides, it was Uthman who succeeded Umar. He stated something very similar to the saying of Muawiyah as quoted before:

Ibn Sa'd:

أَخْبَرَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عُمَرَ الأَسْلَمِيُّ ، أَخْبَرَنَا عَبْدُ الْحَمِيدِ بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ ، عَنْ مَحْمُودِ بْنِ لَبِيدٍ ، قَالَ : سَمِعْتُ عُثْمَانَ بْنَ عَفَّانَ ، عَلَى مِنْبَرٍ ، يَقُولُ : لا يَحِلُّ لأَحَدٍ يَرْوِي حَدِيثًا لَمْ يَسْمَعْ بِهِ فِي عَهْدِ أَبِي بَكْرٍ وَلا عَهْدِ عُمَرَ ،

Uthman ibn `Affan saying from the Minbar, “It is UNLAWFUL for anyone to report a Hadith, unless it was known during the  time of Abu Bakr and Umar.

His speech also restricted Jabir and others from the narrating the full and clear versions of such reports that supported the Leadership of the Imams of Ahlulbayt (as).

But, you may argue that Muhammad bin Umar has been called a liar. Well, he has been called a Thiqah by multiple scholars also, so who was right?

In short, the rule is, if someone has praise, then his criticism has to be explained. Now, by calling someone a liar, does he become a liar, in all honesty and fairness?

Majority of the time, we find the lies being connected to those reports which certain narrators have only delivered. Hang on, they had passed on what they heard, so how can they be responsible for narrating certain reports? If that was the standard, then many scholars would become weak for collecting weak reports.

There are multi various reasons, behind calling someone a liar. Some are genuine reasons and some invalid. On that basis, al-Waqidi's lies need to be proven.

However, some have stated that he can be restricted to the issues of wars and the lives of Sahabah:

Al-Dahabi wrote:

فأطرحوه لذلك، ومع هذا فلا يستغنى عنه في المغازي، وأيام الصحابة

Ibn Hajar:

مقبول في المغازي عند أصحابنا والله أعلم

Furthermore, Uthman bin Affan only came into power due to his submission to follow Abu Bakr and Umar and he agreed. He had NO other merit  that would have qualified  him for the Leadership OVER Imam Ali (as).

And the narration we have quoted about him, proves his service to the first two Caliphs.

Quote
When the Prophet peace be upon him spoke about twelve men, he referred to them as caliphs/ameers.


I think there is not much point in concentrating upon the rest of your explanation (for the moment) since, if your "foundation" is incorrect, then there is not much hope for the rest your construction.

I have already provided for you some reports, that oppose your restrictive interpretation.

Both Imam Muslim and al-Bukhari have recorded from Abu Huraira that the Prophet (may pceace be upon him) said:

Banu Isra'il were ruled over by the Prophets. When one Prophet died, another succeeded him; but after me there is no prophet and there will be caliphs and they will be quite large in number...

You see, the Caliphs were many in number, not restricted to twelve.

ABU BAKR the first Khalifah,  DISAGREES with your interpretation, as report by Imam al-Bukhari:

"....She asked, "From what branch of Quraish are you?" He said, "You ask too many questions; I am Abu Bakr." She said, "How long shall we enjoy this good order (i.e. Islamic religion) which Allah has brought after the period of ignorance?" He said, "You will enjoy it as long as your Imams keep on abiding by its rules and regulations." She asked, "What are the Imams?" He said, "Were there not heads and chiefs of your nation who used to order the people and they used to obey them?" She said, "Yes." He said, "So they (i.e. the Imams) are those whom I meant."

Why did he use Imams, for the early leaders, without a distinction?

Sahih Muslim:

It is narrated on the authority of Tamim ad-Dari that the Messenger of Allah (may peace and blessings be upon him) observed:

Al-Din is a name of sincerity and well wishing. Upon this we said: For whom? He replied: For Allah, His Book, His Messenger and for the leaders [of the Muslims) and the general Muslims.

Here's the Arabic:
 قَالَ ‏"‏ لِلَّهِ وَلِكِتَابِهِ وَلِرَسُولِهِ وَلأَئِمَّةِ الْمُسْلِمِينَ وَعَامَّتِهِمْ

Ponder over: "IMAMS OF THE MUSLIMS" and tell me, did the Prophet differentiate between the specific and the general?

Reports with the term, Khalifahs:

خلافة النبوة ثلاثون سنة ثم يؤتي الله الملك من يشاء

The Prophetic Khilafah will last for thirty years. Then Allaah will give the dominion to whomever He wills.

الخلافة بعدي في أمتي ثلاثون سنة ثم ملك بعد ذلك

The khilafah after me in my Ummah will last for thirty years. Then there will be kingship after that.

That's what you call a SPECIFIC Khilafat! The remaining were KINGS and continued even after the twelfth in your view.

I think such examples are sufficient to destroy your false view of the Khalifahs.

Have another try.

:)






« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 11:31:17 PM by Shia_student »

Farid

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #53 on: August 26, 2015, 04:56:32 AM »
All me to get this straight. You said:

Quote
You see, the Caliphs were many in number, not restricted to twelve.

You arrived at this conclusion from one hadith. Then, you said:

Quote
The khilafah after me in my Ummah will last for thirty years.

So, are you saying that the term "Caliph" was used to refer to five in one narration and more than twelve in another narration, and therefore, cannot be used to refer to twelve?

Farid

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #54 on: August 26, 2015, 09:29:55 AM »
Update:

We have just passed fifty posts and it is clear that your strategy is to avoid providing any answers, while attempting to divert the topic by bringing side topics that deserve their own threads.

Thus, thread will be limited to 100 posts.

I do not want this to turn into another debate like Waleed that exceeded 400 posts which nobody is going to read, and it seems that is where we are going in that direction since you are refusing to answer the simplest questions.

It is your problem if you are unable to present your proofs by then. You have more than enough space.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2015, 09:32:43 AM by Farid »

Shia_student

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #55 on: August 26, 2015, 02:59:54 PM »
Quote
Quote:
You see, the Caliphs were many in number, not restricted to twelve.

You arrived at this conclusion from one hadith.


There are many Hadith out there, but that one seemed to have won my heart...

Besides, a Hadith is BETTER than a BLIND opinion Farid, which you are following at the moment...

It's a Hadith from BOTH your Sahih collections that makes it CLEAR from its wording that those who lived AFTER the period of the twelve Khalifahs were also RECOGNISED as such, CONTRARY to what you have been expressing:

Quote
When the Prophet peace be upon him spoke about twelve men, he referred to them as caliphs/ameers.


And:

Quote
while the terms "caliph" and "ameer" were only used in the hadith of Jabir to refer to the twelve.


As for your other comment:

Quote
When the Prophet peace be upon him spoke about general rulers of the Islamic empire, he referred to them as many things.

He referred to them as Sultan and Ameer (Al-Bukhari #6530). He also referred to them as Imams


The term, "Ameer" has become CONTRADICTORY now. According to you it's used for specific and general rulers... Hehe.

"Imams" has been used by the Prophet to refer to ALL the Leaders of the Muslims. He said:

"Imams of the Mulims" (Sahih Muslim)

"Imams are from the Quraysh" (Sahih Hadith from multiple Sahabah)

So how can you restrict to the ordinary rulers?

Even Abu Bakr, the Khalifah himself, has opposed you and used Imams for the Leaders!

With all such proofs, you are being silly now! Your blind opinion is not SO VALUABLE that we should ignore all the textual evidence against it!

Be a man and at least admit that through reconciliation the terms Khalifahs, Imams, and Amirs were used INTERCHANGEABLY for all the Leaders!

You enquired:

Quote
Quote
 The khilafah after me in my Ummah will last for thirty years.

So, are you saying that the term "Caliph" was used to refer to five in one narration and more than twelve in another narration, and therefore, cannot be used to refer to twelve?


I used the above to show you a VALID example of a restricted Leadership. I said:

That's what you call a SPECIFIC Khilafat! The remaining were KINGS and continued even after the twelfth in your view.

Thanks.

Shia_student

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #56 on: August 26, 2015, 03:07:12 PM »
Thanks for locking Hadrami's post.

I am fine with the restriction to the number posts...

Our discussion has become prolonged because you have been wasting time reconciling the reports with different terms used in the Hadith...

I had to repeat myself so many times to get you to agree...

Finally when you agreed, you started offering bizarre interpretations...

:)

Shia_student

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #57 on: August 26, 2015, 07:56:14 PM »
Don't worry, I will answer your questions, especially:


Was Islam in a state of glory during the times of the Prophet peace be upon him?

I avoided it, coz it wasn't relevant. I wanted to be clear on the Sunni interpretation. Even till this day, I have been chasing you to have a clear explanation of the reports that have offered different terms for the Leaders...

Let's not waste further time. I don't think you can reconcile those reports, without admitting that the narrators used different titles for the leaders interchangeably.

:)


Farid

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #58 on: August 27, 2015, 09:11:38 AM »
Quote
That's what you call a SPECIFIC Khilafat! The remaining were KINGS and continued even after the twelfth in your view.

The term caliph is linguistically applicable to all leaders in general, the twelve leaders mentioned in the hadith of Jabir, and the five leaders mentioned in the hadith of Safeena.

If one wants to be specific, then one may refer to some caliphs as kings. Though, as I have stated, even kings are caliphs. There is an abundance of usages of this in history in which kings are referred to as caliphs.

Ameer is similar to Caliph, since it too can be used to describe those leaders. However, Ameer is often used in a broader sense, since it is often used to refer to any leader, like generals.

Do you have an issue with these definitions?

Quote
Let's not waste further time. I don't think you can reconcile those reports, without admitting that the narrators used different titles for the leaders interchangeably.

I am aware that narrators use such terms interchangeably. That is not the issue. The problem is your lack of proof that Jabir used the term "Imam".

Shia_student

Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
« Reply #59 on: August 27, 2015, 01:21:52 PM »
Again you are wasting your time and my time. You are full of contradictions:

Quote
The term caliph is linguistically applicable to all leaders in general, the twelve leaders mentioned in the hadith of Jabir, and the five leaders mentioned in the hadith of Safeena.


If the term can be applied to all the leaders, then why restrict it to the twelve leaders only?

Rather then submitting to a plausible explanation, you are making yourself look silly each time you open your mouth.

Then purposely, you jumped to the end of my post. Please comment on the following:

Quote
Quote:
You see, the Caliphs were many in number, not restricted to twelve.

Quote
You arrived at this conclusion from one hadith.


There are many Hadith out there, but that one seemed to have won my heart...

Besides, a Hadith is BETTER than a BLIND opinion Farid, which you are following at the moment...

It's a Hadith from BOTH your Sahih collections that makes it CLEAR from its wording that those who lived AFTER the period of the twelve Khalifahs were also RECOGNISED as such, CONTRARY to what you have been expressing:

Quote
Quote
When the Prophet peace be upon him spoke about twelve men, he referred to them as caliphs/ameers.

And:

Quote
while the terms "caliph" and "ameer" were only used in the hadith of Jabir to refer to the twelve.



As for your other comment:

Quote
Quote
When the Prophet peace be upon him spoke about general rulers of the Islamic empire, he referred to them as many things.

He referred to them as Sultan and Ameer (Al-Bukhari #6530). He also referred to them as Imams


The term, "Ameer" has become CONTRADICTORY now. According to you it's used for specific and general rulers... Hehe.

"Imams" has been used by the Prophet to refer to ALL the Leaders of the Muslims. He said:

"Imams of the Mulims" (Sahih Muslim)

"Imams are from the Quraysh" (Sahih Hadith from multiple Sahabah)

So how can you restrict it to the ordinary rulers?

Even Abu Bakr, the Khalifah himself, has opposed you and used Imams for the Leaders!

With all such proofs, you are being silly now! Your blind opinion is not SO VALUABLE that we should ignore all the textual evidence against it!


Rather than contradicting yourself and the textual evidences, please make some sense when reconciling the reports in question, OR GIVE UP WASTING TIME!
« Last Edit: August 27, 2015, 01:25:07 PM by Shia_student »

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
1 Replies
944 Views
Last post May 18, 2015, 09:59:10 PM
by Hani
13 Replies
2772 Views
Last post August 18, 2015, 05:32:41 PM
by Ibn Yahya
6 Replies
1410 Views
Last post September 07, 2015, 01:18:34 PM
by Al Dukhan
0 Replies
361 Views
Last post August 27, 2015, 02:00:04 PM
by TS