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Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Official Debates => Topic started by: Shia_student on August 17, 2015, 06:00:47 PM

Title: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 17, 2015, 06:00:47 PM
Asalaam Alaikum.

I have started a new post because I wish to know the authentic Sunni view on the Hadith of the "Twelve Leaders" as found in Sunni and the Shia sources, from the most leaned person at this discussion group, namely, Farid.

At the previous discussion, I am getting multiple replies, and can't attend all of them due to time constraint.

So please brothers bear with me. Refrain from commenting until we have completed the Sunni and the Shia view of the Hadith of the twelve leaders of Islam.

In a nutshell, Farid had replied saying:

"
Quote
The narration is talking about the izza (greatness) of the Islamic Empire.

We ask Shias, according to the hadith, the Islamic empire will be great until the passing of twelve caliphs. Do Shias believe this? It seems like Shias believe that the Empire was always in an inferior state of weakness since the Imam is always afraid and hiding."

Others replied with similar views.

I used a report to say, the  greatness of Islam was conditional to the men appointed by Allah. Here is the report:

It has been reported on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said:

I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say: The affairs of the people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by twelve men. Then the Prophet (ﷺ) said words which were obscure to me. I asked my father: What did the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say? He said: All of the (twelve men) will be from the Quraish.

My comment:

"What the Prophet was saying is this, the affairs of the people will continue to be conducted well AS LONG AS they are governed by twelve men...

It was made "conditional" but the condition was NOT met, because the ones in view didn't govern but the those who were appointed by men."

---------------------------

Farid replied:

Quote
@ Shia_Student:

Brother Aba Abdullah has presented you with the majority of the narrations and their wordings and they do not include what you have quoted.

It seems that you are quoting the one that says:

لا يزال أمر الناس ماضيا ما وليهم اثنا عشر خليفة

This narration is not explicit that it is a conditional requirement. It can be interpreted to be conditional and unconditional.

The other ones are clear it is unconditional. Thus, the correct interpretation is that it is unconditional.
-------------------------

My reply for today in this new post:

Farid:
Quote
"It can be interpreted to be conditional and unconditional..."

I agree it can be interpreted in both ways, but I have my reasons as to why the Prophet stipulated a condition in his Hadith.

If we were to divert our attention to the history of man made Khalifahs which included men like Muawiyah, Yazid and their successors, we will perceive that Islam started to deteriorate rapidly in its "spirit"and "essence" during their RULE which was detrimental to our religion's real IZZA (greatness)...

What you forget to consider is, Islam did not come to dominate the bodies of the humans only but their spirits too. You are concentrating on the HUSK and not the KERNAL!

Allah and His Prophet would never have approved the rule of such men, where most of them FOUGHT for power and self interest. They did not lead by the conduct of the Prophet nor his compassion and spirit. Some amongst the 12 were responsible for murder of his progeny and so forth!

As for the reports that claim the following:

"This religion would continue to remain powerful and dominant until there have been twelve Caliphs..."

I could still argue that such words were uttered in the conditional sense, referring to those who were in the Prophetic vision not those who ruled by their bodies and not spirit.

Here is something else for you to consider, the power and dominance which you guys boast about, CONTINUED even AFTER the rule of the 12 sunni Khalifas, so it does not make ANY sense for the Prophet to RESTRICT such an AFFAIR to the 12 Leaders only! (Read the report again)

Are you going to educate me that Islam was not powerful and dominant during the rule of the succeeding Khalifas?

Therefore, either such reports are conditional or the  Prophet was unaware of the rule and dominance of the Khalifahs after the 12th Successor in the view of the Sunnis.

:)



Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 18, 2015, 05:16:26 AM
Salam brother.

Seems like the brothers are racing for ajr. My apologies on their behalf. Everyone always wants a piece of the action. =)

Quote
I agree it can be interpreted in both ways, but I have my reasons as to why the Prophet stipulated a condition in his Hadith.

I just want to make it clear that it is only that single variation that you quoted that suggests that it can be interpreted both ways. The other variations are declarations. They are prophesies.

If you go to Dala'il Al Nubuwa by Al Bayhaqi 6/519 you will see that this is how he understood the hadith.

Sunni scholars also continued to name the twelve. They would always give lists. This is because they understood that this was a prophecy and that it was unconditional.

Quote
Here is something else for you to consider,the power and dominance which you guys boast about, CONTINUED even AFTER the rule of the 12 sunni Khalifas, so it does not make ANY sense for the Prophet to RESTRICT such an AFFAIR to the 12 Leaders only! (Read the report again)

That is a good question.

Though, a number of interpretations can be provided as to what is meant. It could be the excessive inner struggles between those that want power. It could also be about the expansion rate of the Muslims of the time. As I mentioned in my article, by the end of the rule of twelve caliphs, Muslims have already conquered Andalusia to China, that there wasn't much "new" greatness after that.

Furthermore, the narration does not say that greatness will not exist within the nation any more. It is simply referring to a continuous state of greatness. Hence, twelve great caliphs can exist, then the temporary state is lifted, but then it returns again by the grace of Allah.

Remember, this narration is said in a context of a new found greatness. After more than a decade of weakness in the early days of Islam, the Muslims finally started to overwhelm the lands. It was then that the Prophet peace be upon him said that it would continue to in its current state.

I ask you this: Was Islam in a state of greatness during the time of the Prophet peace be upon him?
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 18, 2015, 01:05:21 PM


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Salam brother [


Wa Alaikum Salaam

Quote
I just want to make it clear that it is only that single variation that you quoted that suggests that it can be interpreted both ways. The other variations are declarations. They are prophesies.


Other variations can also be perceived as conditional statements, based upon the report I have used, since the Sunni twelve leaders are not meant by Hadith, due the  restriction applied by the Prophet to the number of the successors, which goes against the nature of the Khalifate and the izza of Islam, in whatever category you place that greatness.

I stated:

"Here is something else for you to consider,the power and dominance which you guys boast about, CONTINUED even AFTER the rule of the 12 sunni Khalifas, so it does not make ANY sense for the Prophet to RESTRICT such an AFFAIR to the 12 Leaders only! (Read the report again)"

Quote
That is a good question.


Thanks for being honest. Now let's see how you have handled it.

Quote
Though, a number of interpretations can be provided as to what is meant.


Quote
It could be the excessive inner struggles between those that want power.


Well that also continued beyond the 12th Khalifah, so that answer doesn't meet the objection.

Quote
It could also be about the expansion rate of the Muslims of the time. As I mentioned in my article, by the end of the rule of twelve caliphs, Muslims have already conquered Andalusia to China, that there wasn't much "new" greatness after that


If the greatness was linked to the rate of expansion, then Islam is more greater today then it has ever been. However, when Allah said, "And you see the people entering into (the) religion (of) Allah (in) multitudes..." He meant that for all ages. So, whether new or old, that greatness, is not the greatness which is spoken about in the Hadith. I know that's not your personal choice of interpretation, so we will not bother with it anymore.

Quote
Furthermore, the narration does not say that greatness will not exist within the nation any more. It is simply referring to a continuous state of greatness.


Thank you for admitting that, which takes you back to my main question, which you praised. So if the Hadith is referring to a continuous state of greatness, then why restrict the Leaders to number twelve? That's where the Sunni interpretation fails, whatever it may be.

[/Quote]Remember, this narration is said in a context of a new found greatness. After more than a decade of weakness in the early days of Islam, the Muslims finally started to overwhelm the lands. It was then that the Prophet peace be upon him said that it would continue to in its current state.[/Quote]

So are you restricting the greatness to the conquering of the lands only?

The report I quoted is authentic too. It cannot be dismissed rather reconciled with other reports. Here it is again:

Jabir bin Samura said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say: The affairs of the people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by twelve men..."

Do you see the words: "The AFFAIRS of the people will continue to be conducted well..." ?

Does that refer to the conquering of the lands only???

If it does, then you have a point (at the moment) and if not then, will you try harder to give us a better explanation in the light of the above report?

Till then, I still stand to claim that all the reports that are speaking about the 12 Leaders are conditional. Not only based upon the report I have used, but how the Prophet's words do not conform to the test of history and reality.

Here are the words of another report found in Sahih Muslim,that support my case:

 ‏"‏ لاَ يَزَالُ الإِسْلاَمُ عَزِيزًا إِلَى اثْنَىْ عَشَرَ خَلِيفَةً ‏"‏

Islam will continue to be AZIZ (strong /powerful) until there have been twelve successors.

Hang on, Islam was strong and powerful even after the 12th Khalifah, right? Then why is the Prophet restricting its MIGHT AND POWER to the 12th Leader only?

Inspect these words from Sahih Muslim also:

‏"‏ لاَ يَزَالُ الدِّينُ قَائِمًا حَتَّى تَقُومَ السَّاعَةُ أَوْ يَكُونَ عَلَيْكُمُ اثْنَا عَشَرَ خَلِيفَةً كُلُّهُمْ مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ ‏"

The Islamic religion will continue until the Hour has been established, or you have been ruled over by twelve Caliphs, all of them being from the Quraish.

Well the Islamic religion, continued to be established even after the rule of 12th Sunni leader, if the Khalifate system was genuine to begin with.

You see, unless we reconcile the reports to give them a conditional meaning, we will continue to face statements that cannot be restricted the twelve Sunni leaders.

Secondly, may I request something. When you offer opinions and interpretations, only restrict yourself to the one which you agree with most. I am discussing with you at the moment, so would like to have your personal choices involved. I hope that's not too much of a problem for you. It will save our time. Thanks.



Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: MuslimK on August 18, 2015, 07:10:16 PM
Mod note: Apologies! Only Farid and Shia_Student's posts will be allowed in this thread for the time being. Please use the other active thread on this topic.
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 18, 2015, 07:18:20 PM
Quote
Other variations can also be perceived as conditional statements, based upon the report I have used, since the Sunni twelve leaders are not meant by Hadith, due the  restriction applied by the Prophet to the number of the successors, which goes against the nature of the Khalifate and the izza of Islam, in whatever category you place that greatness. 

It seems as though we are disagreeing upon the very core of the hadith, which is what is leading us to such completely different understandings.

Let's take a step back.

The Prophet peace be upon him narrated these words once. In this gathering he wad heard by Jabir bin Samura who transmitted the hadith. Jabir, missed out on the last couple of words due to the sounds of the crowd, so he asked his father what he missed. His father said that "they are all from Quraish".

Virtually all of the narrations share this pattern. This indicates that Jabir did not hear this hadih more than once. We are talking about an isolated event.

Due to this, we can safely assume that the differences in wordings are due to the narrators.

The Prophet peace be upon him did not say, "Imam," then "Caliph," then "Ameer." He only said one of those things. Thus, an objective student of knowledge filters out the wordings that are uncommon are sticks with the wordings that are stronger and arrive through multiple routes. An objective student of knowledge does not pick and choose what he likes from the narrations in order to strengthen a preconception.

Inshallah this is clear.

Refer to this link for more on the correct wording of the hadith.

http://twelvershia.net/2015/05/12/hadith-of-twelve-caliphs/

My conclusion of the correct wording was:

Jabir bin Samura narrated from the Prophet – peace be upon him – that he said: This matter/religion/Islam will stay in a state of glory until the passing of twelve caliphs.

Jabir then says: He – peace be upon him – said something that I didn’t understand, so I asked my father about it.

He said: They are all from Quraish.





Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 18, 2015, 10:33:41 PM
Quote
My conclusion of the correct wording was:

Jabir bin Samura narrated from the Prophet – peace be upon him – that he said: This matter/religion/Islam will stay in a state of glory until the passing of twelve caliphs.


Ok the report seems to be self-explanatory. Islam will remain in a state of glory until the passing of "twelve caliphs"...

That takes me back to my original question:

"Why did the Prophet place a restriction up to the 12th Caliph, when the glory of Islam continued even after the twelfth successor?"

The link you sent me supports my case. In reference to the Hadith you selected, the article states:

Quote
The narration does not suggest that glory will only be known during the reign of twelve caliphs, but rather, it suggests an uninterrupted era of glory which was a significant prophecy and good news for the Sahabah, who were used to the oppression from their enemies.


Now that we are clear on the selection you've made, please answer my question in the light of additional information. Thank you.
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 18, 2015, 11:07:30 PM
@Abu Muslim Korasani:

Quote
Mod note: Apologies! Only Farid and Shia_Student's posts will be allowed in this thread for the time being. Please use the other active thread on this topic.

Thank you very much. I appreciate your intervention.
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 18, 2015, 11:08:36 PM
Quote
Ok the report seems to be self-explanatory. Islam will remain in a state of glory until the passing of "twelve caliphs"...

That takes me back to my original question:

"Why did the Prophet place a restriction up to the 12th Caliph, when the glory of Islam continued even after the twelfth successor?"

I have provided explanations that you did not accept previously. Let us say, for the sake of the argument, that you are correct, and that my interpretation is faulty. How does that harm Sunnism? There are meanings in the Qur'an and the Sunnah that scholars explicitly comment on by saying: "We don't know what this means." The most famous example is: "Alif Laam Meem."

How does the wording that I have provided support your theory of the Imamate of the Twelve?
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 19, 2015, 02:29:26 AM
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I have provided explanations that you did not accept previously.

You provided three views, and I argued against them for not having met my objections. Then I requested you choose one specific view which you mostly agreed with, but instead you selected a report which was self-explanatory.

I raised my initial question against it again, along with the quote that supported my cakse from the link you provided, and expected a rebuttal from you, but surprisingly got the following response instead:

Quote
Let us say, for the sake of the argument, that you are correct, and that my interpretation is faulty. How does that harm Sunnism?


What is correct, when a learned person (like you) perceives something incorrect, then he should be brave enough to admit that, so that others who look up to such a person are not mislead.

If something is correct, then again he should confirm that even it is against his own self, so that one paves the way for others to accept what is valid.

Quote
There are meanings in the Qur'an and the Sunnah that scholars explicitly comment on by saying: "We don't know what this means." The most famous example is: "Alif Laam Meem."


I can accept certain things cannot genuinely be comprehended but when the excuse of ignorance is put forward just for the sake of denial, then that is deceit and incorrect.

Anyhow, there is no comparison between the Hadith in question and the abbreviated letters, Alif, Laam Meem. The Hadith is clear in its prophecy (as admitted in the article) and the message of the above letters  is unclear and ambiguous.

Quote
How does the wording that I have provided support your theory of the Imamate of the Twelve?


Let us first reach your final attempt of reconciling the Hadith with the historical reality, then we can move towards the above question.

Wa Salaam.
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 19, 2015, 03:47:23 AM
I will entertain your request.

I said previously that I like the interpretation of the expansion of the Islamic Empire.

You replied:

Quote
If the greatness was linked to the rate of expansion, then Islam is more greater today then it has ever been. However, when Allah said, "And you see the people entering into (the) religion (of) Allah (in) multitudes..."

I was referring to a territorial expansion as a sign of greatness. Numbers do not mean much when they have little to no power. Today, most Muslim nations are seen as puppets of the West. This was not the case back in the time of tyrants like Yazeed and Al Hajjaj.

The nation was in a state of Izz (greatness) in the eyes of the whole world back then. It seems like only some Shias, like yourself, could disagree.

Now, instead of discussing the politics, military might, social practices, and religiousness of the early Muslims, we can skip all that since I have conceded this point for the sake of the argument.

Please provide the answer that every Shia lurking on these boards is dying to hear:

How does the wording that I have provided support your theory of the Imamate of the Twelve?
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 19, 2015, 05:08:11 PM
Thanks for the reply. Please bear with me, I am occupied with something. I shall endeavour to reply, asap. Thanks
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 19, 2015, 08:00:19 PM
@ Farid:

Quote
I will entertain your request.


Oh, you're very kind. Thank you!

Quote
I said previously that I like the interpretation of the expansion of the Islamic Empire.

You replied:

Quote
 If the greatness was linked to the rate of expansion, then Islam is more greater today then it has ever been. However, when Allah said, "And you see the people entering into (the) religion (of) Allah (in) multitudes..."

I was referring to a territorial expansion as a sign of greatness. Numbers do not mean much when they have little to no power. Today, most Muslim nations are seen as puppets of the West. This was not the case back in the time of tyrants like Yazeed and Al Hajjaj.


My above response was in reference to your statement:

Quote
It could also be about the expansion rate of the Muslims of the time...


As for my argument against the territorial issue, then this is what I said:

Quote
So are you restricting the greatness to the conquering of the lands only?

The report I quoted is authentic too. It cannot be dismissed rather reconciled with other reports. Here it is again:

Jabir bin Samura said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say: The affairs of the people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by twelve men..."

Do you see the words: "The AFFAIRS of the people will continue to be conducted well..." ?


I also quoted a further two reports to disagree with your interpretation of conquering of the lands.

Today you said:

Quote
The nation was in a state of Izz (greatness) in the eyes of the whole world back then. It seems like only some Shias, like yourself, could disagree.


You guys are relating the izza of Islam to conquering the lands in your desperation. Conquering the lands means nothing in reality, since any country with a big army could claim the land from others, whether legitimately or illegitimately. This kind of situation is not permanent, it fluctuates with the changing circumstances...

Besides, war in Islam is the LAST resort to solve any kind of a disagreement and not the first. Islam stands for "Peace" and our Prophet was sent as a "Mercy" to mankind...

Therefore, the glory that the Prophet spoke about could not have been something related to BLOODSHED and IMPRISONMENT but all the GREATNESS that supports the religion in its exoteric and esoteric nature and value...

Seems your mindset has become similar to some of the the critics of Islam, who use the excuse of the wars for the expansion of Islam and not the CHARACTER AND THE TEACHINGS of the Prophet of Allah...

I pity your poor reasoning, and your defence for the Umayyah clan who used the Muslims (though deceit) to build their own KINGDOM. I could use many reports like the following to support my case:

الْخِلَافَةُ بَعْدِي ثَلَاثُونَ سَنَةً، ثُمَّ تَكُونُ مُلْكًا

"The Caliphate will remain after me for thirty years, then it will transform into Kingship."

They even went as far as fighting and killing the pious Muslims, to preserve their Kingdom, let alone the non-Muslims, which included the FAMILY OF THEIR PROPHET. Battles of Sifeen and Karbala are some of such examples...

Such events prove, they didn't give a toss about the glory of Islam, it was their PERSONAL rule and power that INTERESTED them.

Anyhow, what are you going to do about the quote that was extracted by me from the link you provided in connection with the report you had selected:

Quote
The narration does not suggest that glory will only be known during the reign of twelve caliphs, but rather, it suggests an uninterrupted era of glory which was a significant prophecy and good news for the Sahabah, who were used to the oppression from their enemies.


How does that assist the interpretation that you preferred in relation to the territorial issue?

If the report suggests an uninterrupted era of glory, then how can you restrict it to time period of the 12th successor?

You haven't reconciled the contradiction in perception. I'll give you more time. Please reconcile the contradiction before we can move on...

Wa Salaam.
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 19, 2015, 10:01:21 PM
=)

That is fine. My interpretation  is due to my "flawed reasoning". Please present yours.
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 19, 2015, 11:48:15 PM
Farid:

Quote
That is fine. My interpretation  is due to my "flawed reasoning". Please present yours.


Farid, you are not the man who gives up so easily, what's the matter?

If there is any room for you to strengthen your interpretation, then please do so, otherwise be honest and state you cannot defend it any further.

As far as your above statement is concerned, I feel like you have just expressed that to get my side of the interpretation.

I'll wait for your reply and see what you have decided.

A) If you decide to defend your view then that's all fine and well.

B) If you genuinely admit that you cannot defend your view (in all honestly) then I'll present my case tomorrow. It's getting late here, and will be leaving work soon and then drive home.

Wa Salaam.
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 20, 2015, 01:09:24 AM
Quote
As far as your above statement is concerned, I feel like you have just expressed that to get my side of the interpretation. 

I'll wait for your reply and see what you have decided.

A) If you decide to defend your view then that's all fine and well. 

B) If you genuinely admit that you cannot defend your view (in all honestly) then I'll present my case tomorrow. It's getting late here, and will be leaving work soon and then drive home. 

As I've expressed, I don't feel the obligation to defend my view seeing as though it doesn't derive any religious ruling.

It is a prophecy. Muslims will not be judged for failing to understand the meanings behind a prophecy.

For you, on the other hand, your sect depends on this hadith, because there is nothing else in the authentic Sunni hadith library that mentions Twelve Imams.

We have been at this for long enough and it clear that you are stalling. You know as well as I do that your interpretation is fragile. Please present your proof of Shiasm by interpreting this hadith.

Also be sure to answer: Was Islam in a state of glory during the times of the Prophet peace be upon him?

Or you can beat around the bush and keep insisting that I answer your points until you wear yourself out. Though, if you do that, you will be remembered here as the Shia_Student that opened up a thread about the Twelve Caliphs hadith, but refused to explain its link to his Twelve Imams. *smirks*
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 20, 2015, 06:40:47 PM
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As I've expressed, I don't feel the obligation to defend my view seeing as though it doesn't derive any religious ruling.


If you're not obligated to defend your view, then that means I am wasting my time in trying to explore the Hadith.

My reason to start a discussion with you was to get to the authentic meaning of the Hadith, as I had stated:

Quote
I have started a new post because I wish to know the authentic Sunni view on the Hadith of the "Twelve Leaders" as found in Sunni and the Shia sources, from the most leaned person at this discussion group, namely, Farid.


But that didn't mean, I was going to bow down to your views blindly and without criticism.[b/]

The best way to know the truth, is to criticise it from different angles. If it the truth, it will stand the test of  time.

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For you, on the other hand, your sect depends on this hadith, because there is nothing else in the authentic Sunni hadith library that mentions Twelve Imams.


We don't totally depend on it, we can use it as a support to prove our belief.

Quote
We have been at this for long enough and it clear that you are stalling. You know as well as I do that your interpretation is fragile.


There is a saying in English: "Look whose talking" :)

You haven't even seen my interpretation and you are already calling it fragile?

It may or may not be the case, it is too early for you to judge. I call that, "blind judgement".

For the sake of argument, let's say my interpretation turns out to be weak, which I doubt. We have seen yours to be inconsistent and unreasonable. Let me clarify that a bit further please.

Besides what has been mentioned before and based upon the interpretation of izza, it is more appropriate to relate the glory of Islam to the rule of Abbasids than the Umayyads.

It was during their time that contributions to education, literature, philology, geography, history, mathematics, astronomy, chemistry, philosophy, medicine, etc., were made to a reasonable extent.[b/]

That is what counts towards the glory of Islam and not the wars.

The only credit you have given the Umayyads (from Muawiyah to  Sulayman bin Abd al-Malik) so far is that they conquered many lands...

I don't think there was anything besides that, which they additionally contributed to the assumed glory of Islam.

So, in comparison between the Ummayads and the Abbasids, we can rightfully assume that the latter's contributions were greater than the former, not only in quantity but quality too.

In that case, how was it that the Prophet spoke about the glory of Islam and associated it with an incorrect period of time?

The reality is, some agents have done a poor job in narrating variances of the Hadith. That was due to hide the actual reality related to the Hadith. You know what I mean.

Anyhow, since your view of the Hadith is unreasonable, how will we move on if both us have failed to locate a valid interpretation? (Supposing I fail too)...

You see, I don't discuss to waste time, and reach no where. I want you to push your limits once again (after my view, if it turns out to be false) to prove your case...

On top of that, you have conditioned your mind in preconceiving a fragile interpretation.  How will you perceive the reality with such a mindset?

Clear your mind. Discuss for the sake of learning and not refuting. Be honest, and I'll start my view.

Quote
"...Though, if you do that, you will be remembered here as the Shia_Student that opened up a thread about the Twelve Caliphs hadith..."


Yes I can see, you are warning me of becoming history to your forum. That will not compel me to explain my view, but your tolerance, open mindedness and an honest learning.

We had guests today. I will be getting ready for work soon. I shall begin the discussion aiming at my side of the view fairly soon, if I get a chance.

Till then, you can assure me of discussing with an open mind. Thanks.

Please note. It's up to me how I proceed and present my arguments, like you had and still have every right to do so. You have to tolerate that. I like taking things step at a time. It's not an easy topic.

As an example, this is how I may proceed:

A) Prove Imamat was meant for the guidance mankind (besides Prophethood) from the Holy Quran.

B) It never got abrogated with the seal of Prophethood.

C) It was the same Imamah, that descended to the 12 Imams.

D) Followed by Shia Sunni Ahadith.

It could be become a lengthy topic. We may have to discuss, agree and disagree upon each step. If you agree, have the time and tolerance, then hit the start button!

Wa salaam.
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 20, 2015, 08:47:30 PM
Quote
The reality is, some agents have done a poor job in narrating variances of the Hadith. That was due to hide the actual reality related to the Hadith. You know what I mean.

Quoted for importance. ;)

Quote
Anyhow, since your view of the Hadith is unreasonable, how will we move on if both us have failed to locate a valid interpretation?

What do you mean, "how will we move on?" We don't need to "move on". All you have to do is prove that your interpretation is valid. The discussion ends if I accept your interpretation, you accept mine, or if we agree to disagree.

Be aware that I have no tolerance for any attempts to divert the topic. If you wish, declare now that you will not be providing an interpretation to the hadith.



Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 20, 2015, 09:48:46 PM
Farid:

Quote
What do you mean, "how will we move on?" We don't need to "move on". All you have to do is prove that your interpretation is valid. The discussion ends if I accept your interpretation, you accept mine, or if we agree to disagree.


I did explain don't like discussing for the sake of it. Suggested a second round. Who knows, I may prefer another view. You chose one view, discussed it for a bit and then ended your struggle. Anyhow not obligated to do so.

Quote
Be aware that I have no tolerance for any attempts to divert the topic...


Was I attempting to divert the topic?

The method I suggested was to reveal a relationship of the Hadith to the Imamate which has been mentioned in the Quran concerning Ibrahim (as).

It is our belief that Imamat is also a divine designation like Prophethood. It is similar and dissimilar to one another in many ways.

Whilst Prophethood came to an end, the Imamah continued as a necessity. By right, it was transferred over to the twelve Imams whom the Shia (twelvers) believe in.

Now if I want to reveal the BACKGROUND to the Hadith to create a greater impact on the minds of the "unprejudiced" readers, then why do you have a problem with that?

Did I ban you from proving your case, the way you saw it fit? Or did I place with any sort of conditions against your replies?

Or is it that, you are intentionally trying to avoid commenting upon the verse 2:124, because you know what's coming and that you won't be able to produce any other VALID interpretation to the word "Imam" except as how the Shia perceive it as?

From the start, that will be your downfall and the further we descend, the more problems you will face in your defence for the Sunni twelve successors. Am I correct?

Quote
If you wish, declare now that you will not be providing an interpretation to the hadith.


On the contrary, I declare that I do wish to provide an interpretation to the Hadith, but with its background, facts and features.

Wa Salaam.
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 20, 2015, 10:23:15 PM
So Farid, can I follow my method?

Let me know and once free again, I'll send you something typed up.

Beware, I will take it in stages and if there is anything you find implausible and inconsistent with the reality, then do highlight that. I will attempt to clarify my position further and then move on. Thanks.

Don't let me pass down for the sake of saving your energy or just to get to the Hadith quickly.

Thanks
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 21, 2015, 12:29:22 AM
Quote
So Farid, can I follow my method?

No.


Quote

Beware, I will take it in stages and if there is anything you find implausible and inconsistent with the reality, then do highlight that.

No. Your interpretation of this hadith is not in need of "stages". You are attempting to divert the topic.

Shias claim that the Prophet peace be upon him made it binding upon the Sahaba to accept the Imamah of Ali. According to Shias, a single sentence, "Man kuntu mawlah," was enough for the Caliphate of Ali to be binding evidence.

However, when asked about proof for the Imamate of the Twelve, you become aware that there is no binding evidence upon Sunnis. Due to this, you choose to divert the topic by discussing other related concepts.

Your cards have been revealed.

Provide your interpretation in your next post.
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 21, 2015, 01:40:27 AM
Quote
However, when asked about proof for the Imamate of the Twelve, you become aware that there is no binding evidence upon Sunnis...


Exactly! I wanted to follow a method, through which I could prove the binding upon the Sunnis, atleast logically if not textually.

How does logic play a role in binding a party to a specific belief?

The Atheists are not compelled to believe in Allah by following the Holy Scriptures, nor do they believe in them, yet it is blinding upon them to logically believe in His existence first. Once they form the belief of His existence in their heart, they are further obligated to research about His revelations and guidance, because logically it is unacceptable for a Creator to create His beings and then leave them to stray from the right course...

Such steps will eventually lead anyone to follow Allah's guidance based upon textual proofs.

In the same way, the Shia Ahadith and our interpretation formed on their basis, is not binding upon the Sunnis until they come to know about the truth in their connection. Till then, they are obligated to research and not blindly follow their scholars and forefathers.

The Quran is full of Ayats which guide a Muslim, just as the signs of Allah (in the universe) are indicators for the Atheists.

So let's look at the Ayats of Allah, and logically work our way down.

Once we reach the final Prophet and his Imamate, we can raise the question, what happened to his Leadership? Was it abrogated along with his Prophethood?

Such questions and responses, will inspire us to accept that there is no room for the worldly Khalifate, except the divine Leadership.

Take a ride Farid!

If you still insist that I should take the hard and difficult route, then let me know. I will try to prove it your way.

By the way, I like your excuse of diverting the topic. The Hadith relates to the Imamate of the twelve Imams. I wanted to show you and the readers its connection to the divine Imamah as found in the Holy Quran, so that to demolish the man made belief in the Khalifate system. Anyway, we know WHY you are not permitting me to take my route. :)

InshaAllah, tomorrow you will get my response.





Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 21, 2015, 01:44:48 AM
Quote
If you still insist that I should take the hard and difficult route, then let me know. I will try to prove it your way.

I insist.
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 21, 2015, 07:46:09 PM
Asalaam Alaikum.

Sorry for the delay. Friday is a busy day for all Muslims. Here is the first step to the Shia understanding of the Hadith as reported by Jabir bin Samurah, concerning the "Twelve Leaders" of Islam.

As you are aware, there are multiple versions of it containing some differences.

I believe, the Prophet had most likely  used the wording: "Twelve Imams" instead of "Khalifas" or "Amirs", but the narrators used what they saw fit according to circumstances. There was a trend of using all three terms interchangeably.

Here are a couple of examples of such a trend from Sahih al-Bukhari:

Narrated Abu Huraira:
That heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) saying, "We are the last but will be the foremost to enter Paradise)." The Prophet added, "He who obeys me, obeys Allah, and he who disobeys me, disobeys Allah. He who obeys the chief, obeys me, and he who disobeys the chief, disobeys me. The Imam is like a shelter for whose safety the Muslims should fight and where they should seek protection. If the Imam orders people with righteousness and rules justly, then he will be rewarded for that, and if he does the opposite, he will be responsible for that."


We see, "chief" has been used in reference to the Imam.

Nāfi’ī from ‘Abdullāh, Allāh’s Apostle said: “Everyone of you is a guardian and is responsible for his charges. The Amīr who has authority over people, is a guardian and is responsible for them, a man is a guardian of his family and is responsible for them; a woman is a guardian of her husband's house..."

Sālim ibn Abdullāh from ‘Abdullāh ibn ‘Umar said that he heard Allāh’s Apostle saying: “ ‘Everyone of you is a guardian and is responsible for his charge; the Imām is a guardian and is responsible for his subjects (the people); the man is a guardian in his family and responsible for his charges; a woman is a guardian of her husband’s house..."

We see, Amir and Imam used interchangeably.

However, in the Shia sources, we have multiple Ahadith where "Imams" has been used predominantly. Here is an example:

Shaykh Saduq recorded in his Amali:

حـدثنا احمد بن محمد (رحمه اللّه ), قال : حدثنا ابي , عن محمد بن عبدالجبار, عن ابي احـمـد مـحـمـد بـن زياد الازدي , عن ابان بن عثمان , عن ثابت بن دينار, عن سيد العابدين علي بن الحسين , عن سيد الشهدا الحسين بن علي , عن سيد الاوصيا امير المؤمنين علي بن ابي طالب (عليهم السلام ), قال : قال رسول اللّه (صلى اللّه عليه وآله ): الائمة من بعدي اثنا عشر, اولهم انت يا علي , وآخرهم القائم الذي يفتح اللّه تعالى ذكره على يديه مشارق الارض ومغاربها

The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him and his family) said:

"There will be twelve Imams after me. The first, will be you O Ali and final one  willl be the al-Qaim. Allah will grant him victory over the lands of east and west."

In support of the Shia Hadith, I will use some Sunni reports to prove that instead of Amirs and Khalifahs, the Prophet had most surely used "Imams".

Please note, what is "common" amongst the reports of Jabir bin Samura (in regards to the twelve Khalifahs) is that they all contain, this wording:

"All of them will be from the Quraish"

The above sentence is IMPORTANT and has been supported through other routes too. Here's an example from Sahih al-Bukhari:

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو الْوَلِيدِ، حَدَّثَنَا عَاصِمُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ، قَالَ سَمِعْتُ أَبِي، عَنِ ابْنِ عُمَرَ ـ رضى الله عنهما ـ عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ "‏ لا يَزَالُ هَذَا الأَمْرُ فِي قُرَيْشٍ، مَا بَقِيَ مِنْهُمُ اثْنَانِ ‏"‏‏.‏

Narrated Ibn `Umar:
The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Authority of ruling will remain with Quraish, even if only two of them remained.


Here is another example quoted by Shaykh al-Albaani in Kitab al-Sunnah :
قريش ولاة الناس في الخير و الشر إلى يوم القيامة

"The Quraysh will rule mankind, whether they are in good times or bad times, till the Day of Resurrection."

Al-Albani says:
إسناده صحيح على شرط مسلم
Its chain is sahih on the conditions of (Imam) Muslim.

Since there is evidence that the Prophet affirmed the Leadership being amongst the Quraish, we can now quote the following report.

Shaykh al-Albani in his al-Targheeb wa al-Tarheeb, authenticated the following Hadith:

الأئمة من قريش إن لي عليكم حقا ولهم عليكم حقا مثل ذلك

"The Imams are from Quraysh. They have equal right over you as I do

As you are aware, the version, "The Imams are from Quraish" has been narrated by multiple Sahabah.

We can now safely say, the Prophet spoke about the TWEVE Imams of the Quraish but Jabir bin Samura or someone else in the chain used Amirs and Khalifas, depending on their choice and period.

As further evidence, the following reports also support my case. What was common amongst the Sahabah was that they used, "Imam" for the Muslim leader, as did the Prophet himself.

I will divide the Prophetic usage of the term from the Sahabah.

The Prophetic reports:

Imam al-Bukhari and Imam Muslim:

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) observed:

What will be your state when the son of Mary descends amongst you and there will be an Imam amongst you?

Sahih Muslim:

It is narrated on the authority of Tamim ad-Dari that the Messenger of Allah (may peace and blessings be upon him) observed:

Al-Din is a name of sincerity and well wishing. Upon this we said: For whom? He replied: For Allah, His Book, His Messenger and for the leaders [of the Muslims) and the general Muslims.

Here's the Arabic:
 قَالَ ‏"‏ لِلَّهِ وَلِكِتَابِهِ وَلِرَسُولِهِ وَلأَئِمَّةِ الْمُسْلِمِينَ وَعَامَّتِهِمْ ‏"‏
Sunan Abu Dawood:

Narrated Abdullah b. 'Amr:
The Prophet (ﷺ) as saying: If a man takes an oath of allegiance to a leader, and puts his hand on his hand and does it with the sincerity of his heart, he should obey him as much as possible. If another man comes and contests him, then behead the other one..."


Here the text of the Hadith:

مَنْ بَايَعَ إِمَامًا فَأَعْطَاهُ صَفْقَةَ يَدِهِ وَثَمَرَةَ قَلْبِهِ فَلْيُطِعْهُ مَا اسْتَطَاعَ فَإِنْ جَاءَ آخَرُ يُنَازِعُهُ فَاضْرِبُوا رَقَبَةَ الآخَرِ ‏"‏ ‏.

Sahih al-Muslim:

It has been narrated on the authority of 'Auf b. Malik that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:

The best of your Imams are those whom you love and who love you, who invoke God's blessings upon you and you invoke His blessings upon them. And the worst of your Imams are those whom you hate and who hate you and whom you curse and who curse you..."

Note I have corrected the translation from Rulers to "Imams" because the Arabic contains:

خِيَارُ أَئِمَّتِكُمُ الَّذِينَ تُحِبُّونَهُمْ وَيُحِبُّونَكُمْ وَيُصَلُّونَ عَلَيْكُمْ وَتُصَلُّونَ عَلَيْهِمْ

Sahih Muslim from Hudaifah bin al-Yaman :

"...Whereupon he [The Prophet] said: There will be leaders who will not be led by my guidance and who will not adopt my ways? There will be among them men who will have the hearts of devils in the bodies of human beings..."

Arabic contains Imams.

Sunan Abu Dawood:

Umm Salamah, wife of the Prophet (May peace be upon him) is reported to have said:

The Messenger of Allah (May peace be upon him) said: You will have Imams some of whom you will approve and some of whom you will disapprove. He who expresses disapproval with his tongue (Abu Dawud said : This is Hisham’s version) is guiltless; and he who feels disapproval in his heart, is safe, but he who is pleased and follows them. He was asked; shall we not kill them, Messenger of Allah? Abu Dawud’s version has : Shall we not fight with them? He replied : No, so long as they pray.

Commanders replaced to Imams. The Arabic contains Imams:

سَتَكُونُ عَلَيْكُمْ أَئِمَّةٌ تَعْرِفُونَ مِنْهُمْ وَتُنْكِرُونَ فَمَنْ أَنْكَرَ

Again from Sunan Dawood:

Abu Dharr reported the Messenger of Allah (May peace be upon him) as saying :

How will you deal with the rulers (imams) who appropriate to themselves this booty? I said : I swear by him who sent you with the truth that at that time I shall put my sword on my shoulder and smite with it till I meet you, or I join you. He said: shall I not guide you to something better than that? You must show endurance till you meet me.

Imams in the brackets by the translator, that is what the Arabic text contains.

Reports from the Sahabah using "Imam" for Leadership:

Sahih al-Bukhari:

A woman speaks to Abu Bakr...

"....She asked, "From what branch of Quraish are you?" He said, "You ask too many questions; I am Abu Bakr." She said, "How long shall we enjoy this good order (i.e. Islamic religion) which Allah has brought after the period of ignorance?" He said, "You will enjoy it as long as your Imams keep on abiding by its rules and regulations." She asked, "What are the Imams?" He said, "Were there not heads and chiefs of your nation who used to order the people and they used to obey them?" She said, "Yes." He said, "So they (i.e. the Imams) are those whom I meant."

An extract from al-Tirmidhi, where Abu Saeed stated about the Prophet:

قَالَ هَذَا نَبِيُّكُمْ صلى الله عليه وسلم يُوحَى إِلَيْهِ وَخِيَارُ أَئِمَّتِكُمْ لَوْ أَطَاعَهُمْ فِي كَثِيرٍ مِنَ الأَمْرِ لَعَنِتُوا فَكَيْفَ بِكُمُ الْيَوْمَ

He said: "This is your Prophet (ﷺ) to whom the Revelation came, and the best of your leaders, if he had obeyed them in may of their matters, then he would have been in trouble. So how about you people today?"

In another report from al-Tirmidhi, Abu Saeed says:

Abu Sa'eed narrated that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:
"Indeed, the most beloved of people to Allah on the Day of Judgement, and the nearest to Him in the status is the just Imam. And the most hated of people to Allah and the furthest from Him in status is the oppressive Imam."


Muwatta of al-Malik:

وَحَدَّثَنِي عَنْ مَالِكٍ، أَنَّهُ بَلَغَهُ أَنَّ عَبْدَ اللَّهِ بْنَ عُمَرَ، قَالَ اللَّهُمَّ اجْعَلْنِي مِنْ أَئِمَّةِ الْمُتَّقِينَ ‏.‏

Yahya related to me from Malik that he had heard that Abdullah ibn Umar said, "O Allah, make me one of the leaders of the people of taqwa ."
Allahumma jalniy min a'imati'l-mutaqin.


Al-Tirmidhi:

Amr bin Al-Harith Al-Mustaliq said:
"It used to be said that the people with the worst punishment [on the Day of Judgment] are two: A woman who disobeyed her husband, and a people's Imam whom they dislike."


My main support would have emerged from the Holy Quran, but unfortunately you prevented me from making my case much stronger.

Anyhow, before I proceed to the next step of proving that the Hadith of Jabir bin Samura refers to the twelve Imams of the Shia, I want you to inform me if you have any objections to what has been presented by me so far?

And are you willing to acknowledge that the Prophet had ALSO used "Imams" for the Hadith in question but the narrators used different terms, interchangeably?

You may not find that important, but I do.

If your answer is yes, then I'll proceed further once time permits me to. On the contrary, If you have any objections, then let's inspect them.

I'll wait for your reply.

Wa Salaam.
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 21, 2015, 09:06:11 PM
You have still not provided your interpretation. Instead, you have decided to criticize the wording that I have provided.

You said:

Quote
And are you willing to acknowledge that the Prophet had ALSO used "Imams" for the Hadith in question but the narrators used different terms, interchangeably?

The Prophet peace be upon him narrated this hadith once, as I have explained in the previous page. If you have evidence that this very narration was narrated by him more than once then please present it.

Quote
We can now safely say, the Prophet spoke about the TWEVE Imams of the Quraish but Jabir bin Samura or someone else in the chain used Amirs and Khalifas, depending on their choice and period.

Your provided two theories about the tampering of the narration from Imams to Caliphs.

The first is that it is from Jabir. In other words, the PRIMARY narrator of the hadith tampered with the narration. Then, the students of Jabir all went against him and narrated it in another way. This is not possible since students cannot agree upon narrating a narration in a way that is different from their teacher accidentally. Furthermore, he was their only source of this narration. So it isn't like they had the ability to get the "proper wording" from elsewhere.

The second theory is that the all five tabi'een were "agents" that narrated this hadith from Jabir. They apparently, according to you, conspired to do this.

Please provide proper evidences that the term used was "Imam". Your conspiracy theory arguments have no weight. We are not on Shiachat.

Also, please provide a source for the narration that includes the wording "Imam".

Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 22, 2015, 12:39:38 AM
quote]You have still not provided your interpretation. Instead, you have decided to criticize the wording that I have provided.[/quote]

Have some patience! I did state that I'll be taking it in stages. As long as I remain within the boundary of our discussion, you shouldn't have a problem with that.

And secondly, don't expect me to cover a huge topic in a short time. Have some sense. The history has been altered and misrepresented to a great sense. To unravel certain mysteries takes time.

Quote
The Prophet peace be upon him narrated this hadith once, as I have explained in the previous page. If you have evidence that this very narration was narrated by him more than once then please present it.


As for that specific report, then Allah knows best but who's there to say that such issues were not repeated during the Prophet's time?

According Ibn Hajar Asqalani in his Fath al-Bari:

أخرجه أحمد والبزار من حديث ابن مسعود بسند حسن” أنه سئل كم يملك هذه الأمة من خليفة ؟ ” فقال : سألنا عنها رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال ” اثنا عشر كعدة نقباء بني إسرائيل

Abdullah bin Masuad  asked the Prophet as to how many Caliphs will rule the community? He stated, twelve, as the chiefs of Bani Israeel.

He also rated same report in his Matalib as "Ḥasan" whilst quoting a mutaba'at for it.

So here is your evidence of the issue of Leadership being repeated. Who knows how many times it may have been repeated. The historical circumstances have suppressed many truths and many were ignored and forgotten.

The matter of Leadership is a very important issue and required for every age. How could the Sahabah or the Tabi'een have felt at ease with just ONE version of a report, especially when it does not even mention the names!

Would you not have clarified the matter FURTHER Farid, had you lived in such times? Or would you have been happy with one report with its tail missing?

Quote
We can now safely say, the Prophet spoke about the TWEVE Imams of the Quraish but Jabir bin Samura or someone else in the chain used Amirs and Khalifas, depending on their choice and period.

Quote
Your provided two theories about the tampering of the narration from Imams to Caliphs. The first is that it is from Jabir. In other words, the PRIMARY narrator of the hadith tampered with the narration.


Why isn't that possible? He may have been compelled to do so. Besides, I have revealed to you that "Imams" was also commonly used for the Leaders of the Muslims. On top of that, I mentioned another report, where the Prophet stated:

"The Imams are from Quraish"

Now, how would you reconcile the above statement, with the report of Jabir who connects Khalifahs with the Quraish and not the Imams?

Or are you going to say, Imams are different from Khalifas, like Shaykh Tahir al-Qadri!

Go ahead, either reconcile the two seemingly inconsistent reports, or accept that Jabir may have replaced Imams with Khalifas, on a particular occasion, where the majority of his students heard him expressing the latter version.

As an alternative, I can claim that the Prophet may have narrated different versions, so that to restrict all forms of Leadership for those whom he had in his mind.

As for the rest of your remarks, they are irrelevant at the moment.

Wa salaam.
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 22, 2015, 06:15:54 AM
Quote
On top of that, I mentioned another report, where the Prophet stated:

"The Imams are from Quraish"

Please provide a proper reference.
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 22, 2015, 01:44:51 PM
Here read the discussion on that Hadith by Shaykh al-Albaani in his:

إرواء الغليل في تخريج أحاديث منار السبيل

He has authenticated it:

(520) - (حديث: " الأئمة من قريش " (ص 124) .
* صحيح.
ورد من حديث جماعة من الصحابة منهم أنس بن مالك وعلى بن أبى طالب وأبو برزة الأسلمى.

Here is the link:

http://shamela.ws/browse.php/book-22592/page-620
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 22, 2015, 03:21:33 PM
Or better still, have a look at this:

Ibn Hajar Asqalani in his al-Talkhees al-Habeer has stated, he collected the Hadith, "Imams are from Quraysh" fromFORTY SAHABAH:

النسائي عن أنس ، ورواه الطبراني في الدعاء والبزار والبيهقي من طرق عن أنس ، قلت : وقد جمعت طرقه في جزء مفرد عن نحو من أربعين صحابيا

التلخيص الحبير
أحمد بن علي محمد الكناني (العسقلاني)
مؤسسة قرطبة
سنة النشر: 1416هـ/1995م
رقم الطبعة: الأولى
عدد الأجزاء: أربعة أجزاء

Here is the link:

http://library.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?bk_no=11&ID=145&idfrom=1415&idto=1430&bookid=11&startno=5

Now tell me, how would you RECONCILE, the reports that claim "Khalifas will be from the Quraysh" WITH "The Imams will be from Quraysh" ?

Or due to the weight, can we say the reports of Anas bin Malik and others are more stronger, and therefore assume, Jabir may have interchanged Imams to Khalifahs?

Only helping you out bro... :)
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 22, 2015, 03:59:12 PM
Brother, I don't think you even know what you are quoting. If you did, you wouldn't present this as evidence.

In the first post you quoted, you presented the rulings of Alalbani regarding the most authentic versions of this hadith. Due to the incompetence of whoever is feeding you this information, may Allah give him what he deserves, the full narration is as follows:

The hadith of Anas from Al Tayalsi:

"The Imams are from Quraish, if they judge; they judge fairly. If they give an oath; they stick to it. If asked for mercy; they show it. If they don't, then may the curse of Allah, his angels, and all the people be upon them. No repentance or ransom will be accepted."

Are these your Imams? Why does the Prophet peace be upon him threaten them? I thought they were infallible.

Hadith of Ali from Al Mustadrak:

"The Imams are from Quraish. The pious   of them rule the pious people, while the wicked from them rule the wicked people..."

Seems like your Imams were wicked as well.

Please present proper evidences.
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 23, 2015, 12:22:12 AM
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Brother, I don't think you even know what you are quoting. If you did, you wouldn't present this as evidence.


Is that why you are avoiding what I have asked you to do a couple times before, and for the third time now:

How would you "reconcile" the reports, that speak about the Khalifas being from the Quraish "with" the ones that mention the Imams being from Quraish?

On top of that, I have already provided for you some reports that affirms the "authority" of the Islamic Leaders amongst the Quraish.

Now it is for you to decide , who  those Leaders were, the Khalifas or the Imams?

I have given you two possibilities. Either, agree with me or give me an alternative view.

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Are these your Imams? Why does the Prophet peace be upon him threaten them? I thought they were infallible.


Leave that for me to explain. At the moment fulfil the request pls.

No matter how hard you try, I won't fall for your trap. Stick to what I have asked you. I need to prove my point and move on...

Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 23, 2015, 08:18:53 AM
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How would you "reconcile" the reports, that speak about the Khalifas being from the Quraish "with" the ones that mention the Imams being from Quraish? 

On top of that, I have already provided for you some reports that affirms the "authority" of the Islamic Leaders amongst the Quraish. 

Now it is for you to decide , who  those Leaders were, the Khalifas or the Imams? 

I have given you two possibilities. Either, agree with me or give me an alternative view.

The narration of Jabir clearly says: Khalifas.

The narrations of Anas and Ali say: Imams.

Are these two narrations referring to the same exact people? The answer is no according to both Sunnis and Shias.

To Sunnis, Jabir's first narration is referring to the first twelve caliphs, while the narration of Anas and Ali are referring to caliphs in general, which goes beyond twelve.

To Shias, the narration of Jabir is referring to the Twelve Infallibles, while the narration of Anas and Ali is a rejected narration, since it implies that the Imams can be wicked, which contradicts Shiasm.

Either way, both sects are in agreement that the two hadiths are not specifically about the same people. Hence, you may not argue that the Prophet peace be upon him used to word "Imam" in the hadith of Jabir. He never said there will be Twelve Imams.

That is a direct enough answer for your wording issue.

I must thank you for providing me ammo for further debates though, I wasn't aware that the Prophet peace be upon him threatened and condemned the "Imams from Quraish" before.

Reminder: You are yet to provide a direct interpretation to the hadith.

Also, you never answered: Was Islam during the time of the Prophet peace be upon him in a state of glory?
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 23, 2015, 04:57:07 PM
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The narration of Jabir clearly says: Khalifas.

The narrations of Anas and Ali say: Imams.

Are these two narrations referring to the same exact people? The answer is no according to both Sunnis and Shias.

To Sunnis, Jabir's first narration is referring to the first twelve caliphs, while the narration of Anas and Ali are referring to caliphs in general, which goes beyond twelve.


First of all, what has become clear from your statement is, the Prophet used such terms interchangeably.

Ponder over your statement again:

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while the narration of Anas and Ali are referring to caliphs in general


Note, they were quoting the Prophet and therefore, the change should apply to him, as an argument.

If that was case (as admitted by Hani last night too, that the Prophet used such terms interchangeably) then it is possible that the Prophet also narrated the version of "Twelve Imams" as authentically quoted by the Shia Hadith collectors.

In reference to the above, and the stage we have reached, I must remind you and others to keep my main view in mind:

[I believe, the Prophet had most likely  used the wording: "Twelve Imams" instead of "Khalifas" or "Amirs" but the narrators used what they saw fit according to circumstances...

After quoting the Shia Hadith which states: "Twelve Imams", I said:

In support of the Shia Hadith, I will use some Sunni reports to prove that instead of Amirs and Khalifahs, the Prophet had most surely used "Imams".

That is what I am and will be aiming at. There is a reason for that. It shall come out fairly soon. But that doesn't mean the view of the Prophet interchanging such terms is implausible, I am arguing my case from a preferential point of view.

Anyway, I find your interpretation of "specific" and "general" absurd.

You have tried "restricting" a general statement quoted by a good number of Sahabah: "The Imams are from the Quraysh" with the report of ONE Sahabah concerning the twelve Khalifas.

The Prophet never divided the  Khalifas into two groups, the specific and general, as you have put it.

If place two statements together:

"The Imams are from the Quraysh"
"The twelve Khalifas will be from the Quraysh"


The meaning we derive is that, the Imams and Khalifas has been used interchangeably. They will be from the Quraysh and their number will be twelve, not that they are different to each other.

According to the Shia, the twelfth Imam went into occultation, and is still living. Though u may differ with us on that but our understanding of the Hadith, cannot be dismissed based upon a difference of opinion or due to denial of a specific concept without a valid justification.

Furthermore, there are many reports that go against the interpretation which you have just adopted. Have a look at these for the moment:

Reports with "Imams":

Sahih Muslim:

It is narrated on the authority of Tamim ad-Dari that the Messenger of Allah (may peace and blessings be upon him) observed:

Al-Din is a name of sincerity and well wishing. Upon this we said: For whom? He replied: For Allah, His Book, His Messenger and for the leaders [of the Muslims) and the general Muslims.

Here's the Arabic:
 قَالَ ‏"‏ لِلَّهِ وَلِكِتَابِهِ وَلِرَسُولِهِ وَلأَئِمَّةِ الْمُسْلِمِينَ وَعَامَّتِهِمْ

Ponder over: "IMAMS OF THE MUSLIMS" and tell me, did the Prophet differentiate between the specific and the general?

These versions (amongst others) together make the following Hadith Sahih li-Ghayrihi. The Prophet said:

مات وليس عليه إمام مات ميتة جاهلية)
(من مات وليس له إمام مات ميتة جاهلية)
(ومن مات وليس عليه إمام جماعة فإن موتته موتة جاهلية)

Whoever dies without having an Imam over him, dies the death of Jahaliyah.

Tell me, why did he restrict the obedience to the Imam, after the 12 Khalifas, if they are two different groups?

Sunan Abu Dawood:

Narrated Abdullah b. 'Amr:
The Prophet (ﷺ) as saying: If a man takes an oath of allegiance to a leader, and puts his hand on his hand and does it with the sincerity of his heart, he should obey him as much as possible. If another man comes and contests him, then behead the other one..."

مَنْ بَايَعَ إِمَامًا فَأَعْطَاهُ صَفْقَةَ يَدِهِ وَثَمَرَةَ قَلْبِهِ فَلْيُطِعْهُ مَا اسْتَطَاعَ فَإِنْ جَاءَ آخَرُ يُنَازِعُهُ فَاضْرِبُوا رَقَبَةَ الآخَرِ ‏"‏ ‏.

Or are you going to say, the above rule only applies AFTER the twelve Khalifas?

Even the FIRST KHALIFAH, Abu Bakr DISAGREES with your interpretation. From Sahih al-Bukhari:

"....She asked, "From what branch of Quraish are you?" He said, "You ask too many questions; I am Abu Bakr." She said, "How long shall we enjoy this good order (i.e. Islamic religion) which Allah has brought after the period of ignorance?" He said, "You will enjoy it as long as your Imams keep on abiding by its rules and regulations." She asked, "What are the Imams?" He said, "Were there not heads and chiefs of your nation who used to order the people and they used to obey them?" She said, "Yes." He said, "So they (i.e. the Imams) are those whom I meant."

Why did he use Imams, for the early leaders, without a distinction?

Reports with Khalifas:

خلافة النبوة ثلاثون سنة ثم يؤتي الله الملك من يشاء

The Prophetic Khilafah will last for thirty years. Then Allaah will give the dominion to whomever He wills.

الخلافة بعدي في أمتي ثلاثون سنة ثم ملك بعد ذلك

The khilafah after me in my Ummah will last for thirty years. Then there will be kingship after that.

That's what you call a SPECIFIC Khilafat! The remaining were KINGS and continued even after the twelfth in your view.

I think such reports are enough to show you that the interpretation you have recently adopted was based upon DESPERATION!

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I must thank you for providing me ammo for further debates though, I wasn't aware that the Prophet peace be upon him threatened and condemned the "Imams from Quraish" before.


Don't get too excited, your ignorance of the facts won't help you. Wait till I explain the Hadith.

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Reminder: You are yet to provide a direct interpretation to the hadith.


Let us deal with your reconciliation issue first.  I have offered objections against your view. I don't follow blind shots without valid justifications.

Wa Salaam.











Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 23, 2015, 08:27:56 PM
Here is another report where the Prophet has UNIFIED the Khalifas in ONE group and not two as you have interpreted.

Both Imam Muslim and al-Bukhari have recorded from Abu Huraira that the Prophet (may pceace be upon him) said:

Banu Isra'il were ruled over by the Prophets. When one Prophet died, another succeeded him; but after me there is no prophet and there will be caliphs and they will be quite large in number. His Companions said: What do you order us to do (in case we come to have more than one Caliph)? He said: The one to whom allegiance is sworn first has a supremacy over the others. Concede to them their due rights (i. e. obey them). God (Himself) will question them about the subjects whom He had entrusted to them.

Points to consider:

A) Caliphs will be many in number (not restricted to twelve).

B) The one who is given bay'ah first, takes the leadership. (This method was to continue as long as the caliphate remained)

C) Obedience was connected each and every Caliph.

:)


Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 23, 2015, 08:46:46 PM
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First of all, what has become clear from your statement is, the Prophet used such terms interchangeably.

That is not we are disagreeing about. Our issue is about this specific hadith. You are arguing that the narration of Jabir is actually worded with the term "Imams". You are yet to prove this.

In order to prove this, you have quoted the authentication of Al-Albani for narrations of Anas and Ali, both of which refer to "Imams" as infallible. I repeat, that is a different hadith. It is not the hadith of Jabir, for the simple reason that the narrations are very different. The hadith of Jabir speaks of the greatness of Islam. It also speaks about the time of Twelve Caliphs. The narrations of Anas and Ali speak about general caliphs. It provides guidelines of how they should rule. It makes no mention of numbers.

Of course, you surely reject the narration of Anas and Ali as well, since both narrations go against your Shia preconceptions of what an Imam is. Are you going to argue that secret "agents" tampered with them to?

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[I believe, the Prophet had most likely  used the wording: "Twelve Imams" instead of "Khalifas" or "Amirs" but the narrators used what they saw fit according to circumstances...

No Sunni cares what you believe, brother. Provide evidences for Sunnis. "The agents did it," will not be considered as evidence.

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You have tried "restricting" a general statement quoted by a good number of Sahabah: "The Imams are from the Quraysh" with the report of ONE Sahabah concerning the twelve Khalifas.

As proven above, these were different statements that were said in different occasions.

Similarly, I can easily use the same evidence against you by saying: "You have tried "restricting" a general statement quoted by a good number of Sahabah... with the report of ONE Sahabah concerning the twelve Khalifas."

You see, if you are going to use their narrations to reject the usage of the term Khalifa from the hadith of Jabir, you might as well use their narrations to reject the usage of the number twelve as well, since only Jabir mentions this.

So far, I have arrived at an observation that is worth noting. You do not believe that the hadith of Twelve Caliphs is explicit evidence of the Imamah of the Twelve. I have arrived at this conclusion since you have been arguing this point for almost a week now without providing an interpretation. You also insist that you need to prove this after explaining this in "stages". Anything that needs "stages" of explanations is not explicit evidence. You also believe that the hadith of Twelve Caliphs has been tampered with. This is problematic since no Sunni believes this. You seem to hold the view that the "correct wording" of the hadith cannot be traced to Jabir bin Samura. This is extremely problematic as well. Then, you provide alternative narrations to support your views, though, these narrations also contradict the Shia view of Imamah, but you see to pick and choose what you like from the narration and perhaps blame the "agents" for wordings that you don't like.

Am I correct so far?
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 23, 2015, 08:50:07 PM
You seem to be under the impression that I believe that the word "Imam" is only used for a group and that the term "Caliph" can only be used for another group.

I never said such a thing. This is misunderstanding is from yourself.

I said that the hadith of Jabir's wording was "Caliph" and that the hadith of Anas and Ali says "Imam" and that the Prophet peace be upon him used different wordings on different occasions.

Most importantly, when referring to twelve people, he only referred to them as Caliphs.
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 24, 2015, 01:10:35 AM
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You are arguing that the narration of Jabir is actually worded with the term "Imams". You are yet to prove this.


I didn't categorically state that the Hadith of the Jabir is actually worded with "Imams". I argued about its possibility because we find Imams and Khalifas being used interchangeably.

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In order to prove this, you have quoted the authentication of Al-Albani for narrations of Anas and Ali, both of which refer to "Imams" as infallible. I repeat, that is a different hadith. It is not the hadith of Jabir, for the simple reason that the narrations are very different...


I know the reports are different in wording but they are referring to the SAME MEN, whether you call them Imams or Khalifahs and that is what I was trying to establish since you DENIED that by stating:

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The narration of Jabir clearly says: Khalifas.

The narrations of Anas and Ali say: Imams.

Are these two narrations referring to the same exact people? The answer is no according to both Sunnis and Shias.


Therefore, whatever you have stated in succession to your your view that the reports are different, becomes irrelevant. The issue is NOT that the reports are different. The issue is
if they relate to the same MEN.

Try proving your negation again:

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Are these two narrations referring to the same exact people? The answer is no


With the light of the reports I have used against you.

Thank you.

------------------------

You delivered a second response and stated:

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You seem to be under the impression that I believe that the word "Imam" is only used for a group and that the term "Caliph" can only be used for another group


That is what I understood from these words:

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To Sunnis, Jabir's first narration is referring to the first twelve caliphs, while the narration of Anas and Ali are referring to caliphs in general, which goes beyond twelve.


See, you divided the Caliphs into two groups. The 12 caliphs as specific and the remaining caliphs as  general.

The only reports that make a distinction, are those that speak about Khalifahs and KINGS, not the caliphs and Imams or the former Caliphs with the latter!

Then u said:

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I said that the hadith of Jabir's wording was "Caliph" and that the hadith of Anas and Ali says "Imam" and that the Prophet peace be upon him used different wordings on different occasions.


Thank you! You have only affirmed what I had stated previously:

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What was common amongst the Sahabah was that they used, "Imam" for the Muslim leader, as did the Prophet himself...


Then you said:

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Most importantly, when referring to twelve people, he only referred to them as Caliphs.


You have said that in desperation. If you didn't, then can you inform me:

As admitted by you, the Prophet used different wordings on different occasions, AND IF THAT WAS THE CASE, then why did he choose to RESTRICT himself to the term, "Khalifahs" ONLY when it came to the Leadership of twelve men?

The only reason, he could have done that was to HIGHLIGHT a difference  between the Imams and the Khalifahs, but that would contradict the act of interchanging such terms, if they were NOT EQUIVALENT  to one another.

Besides, the following statement also opposes such a view:

"The Imams are from Quraysh"

The above phrase is general and includes the MEN of Jabir's Hadith too.

Please remove my confusion, without having jump towards irrelevant issues, as you have been doing recently.

Thank you.
































Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 24, 2015, 04:17:55 AM
We are at a point in which we are going in circles.

You have provided your "evidence" as to why you believed he used the words "Imams". I have refuted them accordingly. If you were expecting me to budge then you are mistaken. In your eyes, due to your delusions, you perhaps see me as stubborn. Regardless, your audience is not one man, but rather, every reader of this post.

That being said, for the sake of the argument, let's say that the Prophet peace be upon him referred to them as Imams. Who are these Imams and what does this hadith have to do with Shiasm?

 
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 24, 2015, 12:39:18 PM
First of all, I knew you were going to dodge my final question. When you sense something you can't really answer with a plausible reason, you either deface the discussion or start assuming things.

Anyhow you said:

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You have provided your "evidence" as to why you believed he used the words "Imams". I have refuted them accordingly


You haven't refuted anything yet, rather you have been "differing" with me. Get a dictionary and see what's the difference.

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That being said, for the sake of the argument, let's say that the Prophet peace be upon him referred to them as Imams. Who are these Imams and what does this hadith have to do with Shiasm?


Why for the sake of argument, when we can reasonably argue, he did use Imams?

Secondly, you can't dismiss a question with a question. Answer my objection so that we can reach what you have enquired about. We are almost there now.

I repeat:

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As admitted by you, the Prophet used different wordings on different occasions, AND IF THAT WAS THE CASE, then why did he choose to RESTRICT himself to the term, "Khalifahs" ONLY when it came to the Leadership of twelve men?


I even gave you a reason to assist you:

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The only reason, he could have done that was to HIGHLIGHT a difference  between the Imams and the Khalifahs, but that would contradict the act of interchanging such terms, if they were NOT EQUIVALENT  to one another.


If you have a better explanation then please go ahead. I know you want to AVOID the question but I insist, it is related to your enquiry.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 24, 2015, 01:01:38 PM
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Why for the sake of argument, when we can reasonably argue, he did use Imams?

Refer to previous posts.

We are going around in circles now. I have provided my explanations and refutations. I have nothing more to add in the topic of the wording of the hadith of Twelve Caliphs. The readers will ultimately decide who is making sense here.

Please continue with the rest of your explanation.
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 24, 2015, 01:32:19 PM
At this current stage, we are NOT going in circles! We have arrived at a scene where you stated:

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Most importantly, when referring to twelve people, he only referred to them as Caliphs.


That's a NEW assumption from you.

I'm curious in knowing why did the Prophet restrict his wording to Khalifahs ONLY, when you admitted:

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the Prophet peace be upon him used different wordings on different occasions.


Please provide an answer, it is related to my arguments.

Without it, I will not carry on. Seems I was right. You had stated that in your "DESPERATION".
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 24, 2015, 02:08:45 PM
Please read the above, prior to reading the following.

I think you are forgetting, why I am stressing that you answer my question.

Let me remind you. I had made it clear:

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I believe, the Prophet had most likely used the wording: "Twelve Imams" instead of "Khalifas" or "Amirs", but the narrators used what they saw fit according to circumstances. There was a trend of using all three terms interchangeably.


And also:

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We can now safely say, the Prophet spoke about the TWEVE Imams of the Quraish but Jabir bin Samura or someone else in the chain used Amirs and Khalifas, depending on their choice and period.


But your new explanation carrying a "restriction"conflicts with my view.

I don't want to rest with the wording, "Imams" just for the sake of an argument. I don't build my beliefs upon guesswork. I'd rather work hard and prove to the readers, that such an interpretation is plausible based upon logic and textual evidence.

There is a reason, why I want to restrict it to the Imams, just as you had a reason to restrict it to the Khalifas. ;)
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 24, 2015, 02:15:09 PM
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I'm curious in knowing why did the Prophet restrict his wording to Khalifahs ONLY

Why did he choose a specific wording? That is supposed to be a serious question? Not knowing the reason of why he chose a wording is evidence that a wording is incorrect?

As long as there are no evidences for any other wording, no objective person can choose another.

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Without it, I will not carry on. 

I will not budge and go against the evidence that the word used is "Caliphs."

Nobody needs you to carry on except for the Shias that have hopes for you bro.

If you choose to bow out then I understand.

Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 24, 2015, 03:48:50 PM
You will be glad if I go. :)

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Why did he choose a specific wording? That is supposed to be a serious question?


That was based upon your argument that the Prophet restricted to the Khalifas only. Hence the question is valid. Don't be daft Farid.

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Not knowing the reason of why he chose a wording is evidence that a wording is incorrect?


The question was related to a specific restriction, regardless of it being correct or incorrect.

Besides, why did you make that assumption when didn't have a clue about it, nor did you have any EVIDENCES to back it up except the report of Jabir bin Samurah?

To add spices to your desperation, I am sorry to say, the report of Jabir is not a sufficient evidence to use in order to suggest that the Prophet restricted his wording to the Khalifahs only, why?

Because we have authentic  reports, where the wording, "Amirs" has been used by Jabir too.

I know you mentioned some names of those who quoted Him expressing the wording, "Khalifas", however if you had done extra digging you would have found further reports, where 5 of his students also narrated from Jabir using the wording, "Amirs".

We start with al-Bukhari. Why did he restrict his report to the Amirs version? Because in his view that was most authentic.

Here is his version:

(حديث مرفوع) حَدَّثَنِي مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْمُثَنَّى ، حَدَّثَنَا غُنْدَرٌ ، حَدَّثَنَا شُعْبَةُ ، عَنْ عَبْدِ الْمَلِكِ ، سَمِعْتُ جَابِرَ بْنَ سَمُرَةَ ، قَالَ : سَمِعْتُ النَّبِيَّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ، يَقُولُ : " يَكُونُ اثْنَا عَشَرَ أَمِيرًا ، فَقَالَ كَلِمَةً لَمْ أَسْمَعْهَا ، فَقَالَ أَبِي ، إِنَّهُ قَالَ : كُلُّهُمْ مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ " .
 We have 'Abd al-Malik from Jabir.

From the collection, Mustakhraj Abi Awanah:

حديث مرفوع) حَدَّثَنَا ابْنُ شَاذَانَ الْجَوْهَرِيُّ ، قثنا عَلِيُّ بْنُ الْجَعْدِ ، قثنا زُهَيْرٌ ، عَنْ سِمَاكٍ ، وَزِيَادِ بْنِ عِلاقَةَ ، وَحُصَيْنٍ ، كلهم ، عَنْ جَابِرِ بْنِ سَمُرَةَ ، أَنّ النَّبِيَّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ : " يَكُونُ بَعْدِي اثْنَا عَشَرَ أَمِيرًا كُلُّهُمْ مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ " .

Here is its mutaba'at, though it is weak in its isnad, the above Sahih, supports its condition.

حديث مرفوع) حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى السَّابِرِيُّ ، قَالَ : ثنا بُكَيْرُ بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ الْجُرْجَانِيُّ الزَّاهِدُ ، عَنْ أَبِي خَيْثَمَةَ ، عَنْ سِمَاكٍ ، وَزِيَادِ بْنِ عِلاقَةَ ، وَحُصَيْنِ بْنِ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ ، كلهم ، عَنْ جَابِرِ بْنِ سَمُرَةَ ، عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ، قَالَ : " يَكُونُ بَعْدِي اثْنَا عَشَرَ أَمِيرًا كُلُّهُمْ مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ "

So we have Simak, Ziyad and Husain who reported from Jabir.

An additional name: 

قَالَ : سَمِعْتُ النَّبِيَّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَقُولُ : " يَكُونُ بَعْدِي اثْنَا عَشَرَ أَمِيرًا " ، ثُمَّ تَكَلَّمَ فَخَفِيَ عَلَيَّ ، فَسَأَلْتُ الَّذِي يَلِينِي أَوْ بَعْضَ الْقَوْمِ ، فَقَالَ : " كُلُّهُمْ مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ " ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو زُرْعَةَ الرَّازِيُّ ، قثنا عُبَيْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ عُمَرَ ، قَالَ : ثنا عُمَرُ بْنُ عُبَيْدٍ ، قَالَ : حَدَّثَنِي أَبِي ، عَنْ أَبِي بَكْرِ بْنِ أَبِي مُوسَى ، عَنْ جَابِرِ بْنِ سَمُرَةَ ، عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ، بِمِثْلِهِ .

Abi Bakr bin Abi Musa from Jabir.

So there are about FIVE witnesses that I have discovered, who have reported the "AMIR" version.

I can understand, if ONE person has made a mistake, not FIVE!

There are further proofs against your assumption but that should suffice.

Now on what basis will you restrict it to the Khalifahs alone?

If the Prophet could have used Khalifas and Amirs, then what could have stopped from using the MOST COMMON TERM, the Imams?
 
Thank you.
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 24, 2015, 03:58:10 PM
Quote
To add spices to your desperation, I am sorry to say, the report of Jabir is not a sufficient evidence to use in order to suggest that the Prophet restricted his wording to the Khalifahs only, why? 

Because we have authentic  reports, where the wording, "Amirs" has been used by Jabir too.

I know you mentioned some names of those who quoted Him expressing the wording, "Khalifas", however if you had done extra digging you would have found further reports, where 5 of his students also narrated from Jabir using the wording, "Amirs".

We start with al-Bukhari. Why did he restrict his report to the Amirs version? Because in his view that was most authentic. 

Here is his version:

(حديث مرفوع) حَدَّثَنِي مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْمُثَنَّى ، حَدَّثَنَا غُنْدَرٌ ، حَدَّثَنَا شُعْبَةُ ، عَنْ عَبْدِ الْمَلِكِ ، سَمِعْتُ جَابِرَ بْنَ سَمُرَةَ ، قَالَ : سَمِعْتُ النَّبِيَّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ، يَقُولُ : " يَكُونُ اثْنَا عَشَرَ أَمِيرًا ، فَقَالَ كَلِمَةً لَمْ أَسْمَعْهَا ، فَقَالَ أَبِي ، إِنَّهُ قَالَ : كُلُّهُمْ مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ " .
 We have 'Abd al-Malik from Jabir.

From the collection, Mustakhraj Abi Awanah:

حديث مرفوع) حَدَّثَنَا ابْنُ شَاذَانَ الْجَوْهَرِيُّ ، قثنا عَلِيُّ بْنُ الْجَعْدِ ، قثنا زُهَيْرٌ ، عَنْ سِمَاكٍ ، وَزِيَادِ بْنِ عِلاقَةَ ، وَحُصَيْنٍ ، كلهم ، عَنْ جَابِرِ بْنِ سَمُرَةَ ، أَنّ النَّبِيَّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ : " يَكُونُ بَعْدِي اثْنَا عَشَرَ أَمِيرًا كُلُّهُمْ مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ " .

Here is its mutaba'at, though it is weak in its isnad, the above Sahih, supports its condition. 

حديث مرفوع) حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى السَّابِرِيُّ ، قَالَ : ثنا بُكَيْرُ بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ الْجُرْجَانِيُّ الزَّاهِدُ ، عَنْ أَبِي خَيْثَمَةَ ، عَنْ سِمَاكٍ ، وَزِيَادِ بْنِ عِلاقَةَ ، وَحُصَيْنِ بْنِ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ ، كلهم ، عَنْ جَابِرِ بْنِ سَمُرَةَ ، عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ، قَالَ : " يَكُونُ بَعْدِي اثْنَا عَشَرَ أَمِيرًا كُلُّهُمْ مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ " 

So we have Simak, Ziyad and Husain who reported from Jabir.

An additional name:  

قَالَ : سَمِعْتُ النَّبِيَّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَقُولُ : " يَكُونُ بَعْدِي اثْنَا عَشَرَ أَمِيرًا " ، ثُمَّ تَكَلَّمَ فَخَفِيَ عَلَيَّ ، فَسَأَلْتُ الَّذِي يَلِينِي أَوْ بَعْضَ الْقَوْمِ ، فَقَالَ : " كُلُّهُمْ مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ " ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو زُرْعَةَ الرَّازِيُّ ، قثنا عُبَيْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ عُمَرَ ، قَالَ : ثنا عُمَرُ بْنُ عُبَيْدٍ ، قَالَ : حَدَّثَنِي أَبِي ، عَنْ أَبِي بَكْرِ بْنِ أَبِي مُوسَى ، عَنْ جَابِرِ بْنِ سَمُرَةَ ، عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ، بِمِثْلِهِ .

Abi Bakr bin Abi Musa from Jabir.

So there are about FIVE witnesses that I have discovered, who have reported the "AMIR" version. 

I can understand, if ONE person has made a mistake, not FIVE! 

There are further proofs against your assumption but that should suffice.

Now on what basis will you restrict it to the Khalifahs alone?

And if the Prophet could have used Khalifas and Amirs, then what could have stopped from using the MOST COMMON TERM, the Imams?

Good post. I will review this and provide my analysis.
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 24, 2015, 04:20:05 PM
Quote
Good post. I will review this and provide my analysis.


Thank you. If I am delayed in answering then bear with me.

Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 24, 2015, 10:08:01 PM
Due the complexity of the matter and the request of brother Shia_Student, I've analyzed the two wordings of "Ameer" and "Caliph" from the hadith of Jabir bin Samura. I have included my conclusions below for those that do not have the time to follow closely to the technical material.

@Shia_Student:

You have provided the names of five Tabi’een that have narrated this narration from Jabir bin Samura. These men are:

Abdulmalik bin Umair, Husain bin Abdulrahman, Simak, Ziyad bin Ilaqa, and Abu Bakr bin Abi Musa.
Let’s analyze if they did indeed narrate such narrations.

1- Abdulmalik bin Umair
As you have pointed out, the narration of Abdulmalik bin Umair does indeed include the term “Ameer” in the narration of Al-Bukhari. I have already pointed this out in my original article which I have linked to. I have also included narrations from Abdulmalik bin Umair from other paths. Here is the quote from my original article:
Quote
1- Al-Bukhari (#6682) narrated through the path of Shu’ba from Abdulmalik from Jabir bin Samura that the Prophet – peace be upon him – said that there will be twelve amirs. Shu’ba narrates it in this short form, which others, like Sufyan in Saheeh Muslim (#3394) and Abu Abd Al-Samad Al-Ami in Musnad Ahmad (#20019) narrated a lengthier form from Abdulmalik. The former said: The matters of the people will continue to progress as long as they are led by twelve men. The latter said: This religion will stay at a state of glory or the people will be in a good state until the passing of twelve caliphs.

I also add that Sufyan, in Musnad Ahmad #20017 and #20018 refers to them as Ameer, in his narration from Abdulmalik bin Umair. This is also in Al-Tabarani’s Kabeer #1833. Each of these come from a different narrator from Sufyan.
In Al-Tabarani’s Kabeer #1843, we have another narration from the path of Sufyan that uses the term “Caliph”.
In other words, the narrations of Sufyan have three men using the word “Ameer”, one using the word “men” and one using the word “Caliph”.
In the light of the above, most narrators have narrated it from Sufyan with the term “Ameer.” This means that Sufyan’s correct narration from Abdulmalik contains the word “Ameer”.
This is supported by the narration of Shu’ba bin Al-Hajjaj. The only other narration that includes the word “Caliph” from Abdulmalik is the narration of the narration Abu Abdulsamad.
However, according to Sunni rijali standards, the narration of Shu’ba and Sufyan bin Uyayna single-handedly are stronger than the narration of Abu Abdulsamad, since both men are major huffath of hadith. With their combined agreement on the correct wording from Abdulmalik bin Umair, there leaves no doubt that Abu Abdulsamad erred in his wording and that the correct wording from Abdulmalik bin Umair is “Ameer”.
Conclusion: Abdulmalik said, “Ameer”.

2- Husain bin Abdulrahman
He has a narration from Saheeh Muslim #3393 from Khalid bin Abdullah Al-Tahhan that uses the word “Caliph”.
He has another narration from Al-Tabarani’s Kabeer #2034 from the narration of Jareer that uses the word “Ameer”.
He has another narration from Mustakhraj Abi Awana #5628/#5629 from Zai’dah and another from Abthar, which both use the word “Caliph.”
As we can see here, three narrators have mentioned the term “Caliph”, while only one has used the term “Ameer”.
Conclusion: Husain said, “Caliph”.

Note: You have provided a narration from the path of Abu Khaithama Zuhair. However, this narration combines the narrations of several tabi’een. It says that Zuhair heard from Simak, Ziyad bin Ilaqa, and Husain narrate this hadith from Jabir. I did not use this as evidence for the narration of Husain, since hadithists sometimes have a habit of narrating one narration with different wordings with different chains, then grouping up narrators even though wordings are different.
Of course, I do not use this evidence against you alone, but I use it against myself. If you observe the narration of Jareer from Husain in Saheeh Muslim #3393, you will see that it is a narration combined with the narration of Khalid Al-Tahhan. However, I did not mention Jareer in the list of narrations in the list since it is a combined narration and I am not certain if he used the word “Caliph” or “Ameer”.

3- Simak
We find him narrating with the word “Caliph” in the narrations of Hammad bin Salama (Muslim #3395).
We also find him narrating with the word “Ameer” in the narrations of Amr bin Ubaid (Al-Tirmithi #2149), Shu’ba (Ahmad #19920), Zuhair (Ahmad #19946), Isra’eel (Al-Tabarani in Al-Kabeer #1890), Zakariyah bin Abi Za’idah (Al-Tabarani in Al-Kabeer#1974), and Amr bin Abi Qais (Al-Tabarani in Al-Kabeer #2012).
Note: I did not use the narration of Zakariyah bin Abi Za’idah in Al-Mustakhraj #5631 as evidence from Caliph since it is a combined report. It is also established that Zakariyah narrated using the word “Ameer”, which makes it more likely that this is not his chosen wording.
In summary, we find him only narrating using the word “Caliph” in the narration of Hammad bin Salama, while according to six other narrators, he used the word “Ameer”. It is safe to say that Hammad bin Salama erred in this narration since he went against the majority.
Conclusion: Simak said, “Ameer.”

4- Ziyad bin Ilaqa
He narrated in Mu’jam Al-Tabarani (#2028) that he narrated using the term “Ameer”.

5- Abu Bakr bin Abi Musa
All the narrations of Abi Bakr bin Abi Musa that I have seen are combined chains and I cannot be sure of his wording.

6- Al-Sha’bi
He narrated in Saheeh Muslim (#3396) using the word “Caliph”.

7- Amer bin Sa’ad bin Abi Waqqas
He narrated in Saheeh Muslim (#3398) using the word “Caliph”.

8- Abu Khalid the father of Isma’eel
He narrated in Sunan Al-Tirmithi (#3731) using the word “Caliph”.

9- Al-Aswad bin Sa’eed Al-Hamadani
He narrated Musnad Ahmad (#19944) using the word “Caliph”.

10- Al-Musayyab bin Rafi’
He narration in Al-Mu’jam Al-Kabeer by Al-Tabarani (#1850) using the word “Ameer”.

11- Al-Nadhr bin Salih
He narration in Al-Mu’jam Al-Kabeer by Al-Tabarani (#2027) using the word “Ameer”.

12- M’abad bin Khalid
He narration in Al-Mu’jam Al-Awsat by Al-Tabarani (#4085) using the word “Ameer”.

13- Khalid bin Jabir bin Samura
He narrated using the word “Caliph” in Musnad Al-Bazzar (#4284).

From the above, we have found evidences that the following narrators said “Caliph”:
Husain bin Abdulrahman – Al-Sha’bi – Amer bin Sa’ad – Abu Khalid – Al-Aswad bin Sa’eed – Khalid bin Jabir bin Samura

From the above, we have found evidences that the following narrators said “Ameer”:
Abdulmalik bin Umair – Simak – Ziyad bin Ilaqa – Al-Musayyib bin Rafi’– Al-Nadhr bin Salih  – M’abad bin Khalid

Bolded narrators are the ones that are reliable and have had this narration correctly attributed to them.

CONCLUSION:

In light of the above evidences, I have come to the conclusion that Jabir bin Samura may have narrated this hadith many times and would narrate it using the words “Caliph” and “Ameer” interchangeably. No other wordings have anywhere close to as many chains as these two wordings with as many decent chains.

However, if I was going to choose one specific wording over the other, I would still choose the term “Caliph”. Not only because there are more reliable people narrating the hadith, but because those that used the term “Caliph” are easily more reliable than those that said “Ameer”. Refer to the biographies of Al-Sha’abi and Husain bin Abdulrahman for proof of their high reliability. 

It is important to be aware that the main reason that I have changed my ijtihad on this issue is because my original article was focused on the narrators of the Saheehain that have narrated this report. I have mentioned this in my article of course. If I had originally put more effort into collecting more chains from the beginning I would not have been as sure as I was that the correct wording is "Caliph", but rather, both "Caliph" and "Ameer" have weight.
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 25, 2015, 04:33:52 AM
Thanks for the response.

Quote
In light of the above evidences, I have come to the conclusion that Jabir bin Samura may have narrated this hadith many times and would narrate it using the words “Caliph” and “Ameer” interchangeably.


Well that is now clear. Good.

Quote
However, if I was going to choose one specific wording over the other, I would still choose the term “Caliph”. Not only because there are more reliable people narrating the hadith, but because those that used the term “Caliph” are easily more reliable than those that said “Ameer”. Refer to the biographies of Al-Sha’abi and Husain bin Abdulrahman for proof of their high reliability.


You must have thought, you made a  smart move by expressing the above. I'm sorry to say, you are naive when it comes to certain issues.

You have opted to choose Caliphs over Amirs, due to few extra narrators reporting that version and in relation to the matter of reliability.

Well, let me inform you of something, that does NOT mean anything  to me.

The issue of a MISTAKE or DOUBT arises when we hear a report from a SINGLE person. Even if just three individuals have heard Jabir stating the AMIR version, that should be "sufficient" for both of us.

However, you have counted 6 men reporting from him. What was the chance of ALL OF THEM committing the SAME mistake?

Since the mistake cannot be attributed to a group of men reporting from the SAME individual, your preference by ignoring the term Amirs fails.

The best I can do is agree that the term "Khalifahs" was used more commonly than the Amirs, but the latter cannot be denied because of the commonality issue. Keep that in mind.

Now having corrected you, that leads me to the point of asking you:

If it was Jabir who interchanged between Caliphs and Amirs, LIKE YOU HAVE AGREED, then tell me, what caused him to refrain from using, "Imams" for the Hadith of twelve Leaders?

I have brought to your attention many reports which verify that such a term was commonly used by the Prophet too, then on what BASIS did the companion use Amirs or more predominately the Khalifahs version only?

Do you want me to be blunt and reveal one of such reasons? Ok I will, but don't reject my opinion just because you may differ with it. Only raise objections against it, if it is unreasonable.

From the time of Ibrahim (as), the divine Imamah descended through his progeny line. It reached the final Prophet of Allah and then was transferred over to Imam Ali (as)... 

Then how the circumstances played their part, the Sunnah of divine designation was overlooked and Abu Bakr became the first Khalifah of the Muslims...

This term then took a specific meaning amongst he Sunnis AS IT IS TODAY.

They called any person a Khalifah who was selected into power by the majority.  Many narrations were coined with that meaning just to have it established. Take a look at these examples:

The Prophet claimed that Khilafat will succeed Prophethood:

Al-Muslim and Al-Bukhari recorded from Abu Huraira that the Prophet (may pceace be upon him) said:

Banu Isra'il were ruled over by the Prophets. When one Prophet died, another succeeded him; but after me there is no prophet and there will be caliphs and they will be quite large in number...

Abu Bakr was seen as an appointed Khalifah. Imam al-Bukhari recorded.

Narrated `Aisha:
When Abu Bakr As-Siddiq was chosen Caliph, he said, "My people know that my profession was not incapable of providing substance to my family. And as I will be busy serving the Muslim nation, my family will eat from the National Treasury of Muslims, and I will practice the profession of serving the Muslims."

Sahih al-Bukhari:

Narrated Anas:
That when Abu Bakr became the Caliph, he sent him to Bahrain and wrote this letter for him, and stamped it with the Ring of the Prophet. Three lines were engraved on the Ring, (the word) 'Muhammad' was in a line, 'Apostle' was in another line, and 'Allah' in a third.

The same term was used during Umar's time. al-Bukhari and Muslim recorded.

Narrated `Abdullah bin `Umar:
It was said to `Umar, "Will you appoint your successor?" `Umar said, "If I appoint a Caliph (as my successor) it is true that somebody who was better than I (i.e., Abu Bakr) did so, and if I leave the matter undecided, it is true that somebody who was better than I (i.e., Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)) did so." On this, the people praised him. `Umar said, "People are of two kinds: Either one who is keen to take over the Caliphate or one who is afraid of assuming such a responsibility. I wish I could be free from its responsibility in that I would receive neither reward nor retribution I won't bear the burden of the caliphate in my death as I do in my life."

Sahih Muslim:

Abu Huraira: "...When Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) died, this was the practice, and it continued thus during Abu Bakr's caliphate and the early part of 'Umar's caliphate...

Anyhow, in order to keep their system of Khilafah ALIVE and distinct from the Shias, the Ahlul-Sunnah empathised mostly on using Khalifahs.

Whenever they got an opportunity, they used that term instead of Imams, not because of the interchange issue, rather, for the sake of opposition and establishment.

Jabir bin Samurah, either willingly or through compulsion, narrated the
Hadith of the twelve successors in a way that suited the Ahlul-Sunnah view.

They tried all sorts, to give weight to the Khalifate system, but Allah is the master of all affairs. He preserved many truths in connection with the Imams, though many Muslims were averse to them.

Yes we do not have an explicit version of the "twelve Imams" in the Sunnis books, but what they can't deny is, when we place all the reports together to form an interpretation, the results are in accordance to the Shia view.

The version of Twelve Khalifas, can still be used to refer to the twelve Imams, because of other "reconciliatory" evidences.

If you think that my opinion is incorrect, then try "reconciling" the following reports with another, ONCE AGAIN:

"The Imams are from the Quraysh" "The Khalifahs will be from the Quraysh"

Your previous argument of the specific and general issue was crap! Then we got drifted again, because of your new view that the Prophet restricted himself to the term, Khalifas...

Finally, you have admitted that the interchange came from Jabir between Amirs and Caliphs... We can now continue from the point of reconciliation so that I can prove to you what I have stated above...

Or are going to dodge the question as usual and say we are going in circles?

:)
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 25, 2015, 08:35:57 AM
Quote
However, you have counted 6 men reporting from him. What was the chance of ALL OF THEM committing the SAME mistake?

Since the mistake cannot be attributed to a group of men reporting from the SAME individual, your preference by ignoring the term Amirs fails.

This is a strange comment, since you know that I lean towards that view that Jabir used both terms now. You said in your last post, "Finally, you have admitted that the interchange came from Jabir between Amirs and Caliphs..."

Quote
If it was Jabir who interchanged between Caliphs and Amirs, LIKE YOU HAVE AGREED, then tell me, what caused him to refrain from using, "Imams" for the Hadith of twelve Leaders?

He did not refrain from narrating such. He never heard the usage of the term "Imam" in the hadith.

Jabir's interchanging usage of the term "Caliph" and "Ameer" is like saying, "The Prophet peace be upon him said that Islam will be in a state of greatness until the passing of twelve Caliphs or Ameers."

As a Sunni, since the narration was only said by the Prophet peace be upon him once, there perhaps is no way of knowing which of the two words he used, since there is a 50-50 chance of either.

In the eyes of a Sunni, the possibility that Jabir may have erred in the wording is possible. One may argue that one can be 47% sure that the Prophet peace be upon him used the word "Ameer", then another 47% for the word "Caliph", then the remaining 6% may be used for any number of words, like "Sultan", "Rajul", "Hakim", "Malik", and "Imam", etc. However, there is no Sunni that would choose any of the latter wordings and attribute it to the Prophet peace be upon him since there is the evidence that he used "Ameer" or "Caliph" in this very hadith largely outweighs the other possibilities, especially since it is extremely unlikely that Jabir's memory failed him twice.

Quote
I have brought to your attention many reports which verify that such a term was commonly used by the Prophet too, then on what BASIS did the companion use Amirs or more predominately the Khalifahs version only?

He narrated what he heard or what he remembered that he heard. It is not an academical opinion to suggest a different wording based on a completely different hadith that occurred in a different event.

Quote
Jabir bin Samurah, either willingly or through compulsion, narrated the
Hadith of the twelve successors in a way that suited the Ahlul-Sunnah view.

Now we are getting somewhere. You hold the opinion that this narration by Jabir is not due to a mistake, but rather, it was an intentional blotting out of the term "Imam" by Jabir.

Do you have any evidence as to why Sunnis should not accept Jabir as reliable? Why should Sunnis consider him an "agent"?

Quote
Yes we do not have an explicit version of the "twelve Imams" in the Sunnis books, but what they can't deny is, when we place all the reports together to form an interpretation, the results are in accordance to the Shia view.

The version of Twelve Khalifas, can still be used to refer to the twelve Imams, because of other "reconciliatory" evidences.

I am glad that you have finally admitted that there is no clear evidence from Sunni sources for the Imamah of the Twelve and that the only way to reach such a conclusion is by bringing bits and pieces of hadith together. By taking parts of narrations that you like, mixing and matching them to suit your beliefs, while accusing the rest of being manipulated by "agents", you may arrive at your goal in your own mind.

Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 25, 2015, 09:02:07 AM
Brother Shia_Student, would you mind providing the correct wording of the hadith. All I have seen from you are accusations without providing the proper text.

Is it: "Islam will be in a state of greatness until the passing of Twelve Imams?" or "Islam will have Twelve Imams?" or something different entirely?
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 25, 2015, 02:40:50 PM
Quote
This is a strange comment, since you know that I lean towards that view that Jabir used both terms now...


Yes but you tried making a preference based upon the narrators of "Caliphs" being more reliable... More reliable means nothing, when the other statement is proven.

Anyway not an important issue...

Quote
He did not refrain from narrating such. He never heard the usage of the term "Imam" in the hadith.


How can you be so sure Farid? You make categorical statements without  proof of some sort.

Why couldn't he have refrained from narrating such a version when you are aware of Umar bin Khattab's nature? Wasn't he the type of a person who would investigate and see what type reports were being spread? Didn't he restrict many Sahabah from narrating specific Ahadith?

You also said:

Quote
Now we are getting somewhere. You hold the opinion that this narration by Jabir is not due to a mistake, but rather, it was an intentional blotting out of the term "Imam" by Jabir.

Do you have any evidence as to why Sunnis should not accept Jabir as reliable? Why should Sunnis consider him an "agent"?


Read my statement again:

Quote
Jabir bin Samurah, either willingly or through compulsion, narrated the Hadith of the twelve successors in a way that suited the Ahlul-Sunnah view.


I said, either willingly OR through compulsion...

Secondly I could also relate such a view to the students of Jabir, or others below them, because the Ummayds kept the reports under observation too. You must be aware of Muawiyah bin Abu Sufyan's call:

"..Beware of spreading the Hadith except those that were known during the reign of `Umar ibn al-Khattab..."(Sahih Muslim)

Quote
I am glad that you have finally admitted that there is no clear evidence from Sunni sources for the Imamah of the Twelve...


How silly of you Farid. I only spoke about the absence of a PARTICULAR Hadith not the absence of Imamah as a whole.

What is missing (due to political reasons) is the just the NUMBER (twelve) in relation to the Imams of AhlulBayt, NOT the multiple Hadith which substantiate their right to the Islamic Leadership.

What do these words mean to you:

THE IMAMS OF THE QURAYSH
THE IMAMS OF THE MUSLIMS

Do they apply to the KHALIFAS?

That's the part where you have REFRAINED from making a CATEGORICAL submission again!

I stated:

Quote
The version of Twelve Khalifas, can still be used to refer to the twelve Imams, because of other "reconciliatory" evidences.

If you think that my opinion is incorrect, then try "reconciling" the following reports with another, ONCE AGAIN:

"The Imams are from the Quraysh" "The Khalifahs will be from the Quraysh"

Your previous argument of the specific and general issue was crap! Then we got drifted again, because of your new view that the Prophet restricted himself to the term, Khalifas...


Now don't waste time. You have avoided the reconciliation step many times now. I need to give my side of the view too.

If the reports under question can be reconciled, then go ahead, make SOME SENSE this time.

If they can't be then you have a PROBLEM!

Thank you!
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 25, 2015, 02:51:26 PM
You need to understand, before we can move on, I need to be clear from your side, whether you take the Khalifas and the Imams as the same people or not.

If they are, then the number twelve applies to them also.

If they are not, then I need an explain of the difference between the two.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 25, 2015, 05:57:24 PM
Quote
How can you be so sure Farid? You make categorical statements without  proof of some sort.

Why couldn't he have refrained from narrating such a version when you are aware of Umar bin Khattab's nature? Wasn't he the type of a person who would investigate and see what type reports were being spread? Didn't he restrict many Sahabah from narrating specific Ahadith?

Jabir narrated this hadith after the time of Omar.

Proof: Husain bin Abdulrahman was born in the year 43AH, twenty years after the death of Omar. So, to say that Omar had any role in causing Jabir to change his wordings is false.

Quote
You need to understand, before we can move on, I need to be clear from your side, whether you take the Khalifas and the Imams as the same people or not.

When the Prophet peace be upon him spoke about twelve men, he referred to them as caliphs/ameers.
When the Prophet peace be upon him spoke about general rulers of the Islamic empire, he referred to them as many things. He referred to them as Sultan and Ameer (Al-Bukhari #6530). He also referred to them as Imams, as you have nicely pointed out. You see, we do not believe that rulers are restricted to twelve, which is why I have said that these different wordings are used for rulers in the general sense, while the terms "caliph" and "ameer" were only used in the hadith of Jabir to refer to the twelve. 


Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 25, 2015, 10:32:55 PM
Quote
Jabir narrated this hadith after the time of Omar.


Regardless! My statements were not restricted to Umar's age. When I stated:

Quote:
"Didn't he restrict many Sahabah from narrating specific Ahadith?"

I meant it for his era and beyond. Had the restrictions been limited to his rule only, that would have jeopardised the future of his successors. It was a necessity to keep the narrators of Hadith in check.

Besides, it was Uthman who succeeded Umar. He stated something very similar to the saying of Muawiyah as quoted before:

Ibn Sa'd:

أَخْبَرَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عُمَرَ الأَسْلَمِيُّ ، أَخْبَرَنَا عَبْدُ الْحَمِيدِ بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ ، عَنْ مَحْمُودِ بْنِ لَبِيدٍ ، قَالَ : سَمِعْتُ عُثْمَانَ بْنَ عَفَّانَ ، عَلَى مِنْبَرٍ ، يَقُولُ : لا يَحِلُّ لأَحَدٍ يَرْوِي حَدِيثًا لَمْ يَسْمَعْ بِهِ فِي عَهْدِ أَبِي بَكْرٍ وَلا عَهْدِ عُمَرَ ،

Uthman ibn `Affan saying from the Minbar, “It is UNLAWFUL for anyone to report a Hadith, unless it was known during the  time of Abu Bakr and Umar.

His speech also restricted Jabir and others from the narrating the full and clear versions of such reports that supported the Leadership of the Imams of Ahlulbayt (as).

But, you may argue that Muhammad bin Umar has been called a liar. Well, he has been called a Thiqah by multiple scholars also, so who was right?

In short, the rule is, if someone has praise, then his criticism has to be explained. Now, by calling someone a liar, does he become a liar, in all honesty and fairness?

Majority of the time, we find the lies being connected to those reports which certain narrators have only delivered. Hang on, they had passed on what they heard, so how can they be responsible for narrating certain reports? If that was the standard, then many scholars would become weak for collecting weak reports.

There are multi various reasons, behind calling someone a liar. Some are genuine reasons and some invalid. On that basis, al-Waqidi's lies need to be proven.

However, some have stated that he can be restricted to the issues of wars and the lives of Sahabah:

Al-Dahabi wrote:

فأطرحوه لذلك، ومع هذا فلا يستغنى عنه في المغازي، وأيام الصحابة

Ibn Hajar:

مقبول في المغازي عند أصحابنا والله أعلم

Furthermore, Uthman bin Affan only came into power due to his submission to follow Abu Bakr and Umar and he agreed. He had NO other merit  that would have qualified  him for the Leadership OVER Imam Ali (as).

And the narration we have quoted about him, proves his service to the first two Caliphs.

Quote
When the Prophet peace be upon him spoke about twelve men, he referred to them as caliphs/ameers.


I think there is not much point in concentrating upon the rest of your explanation (for the moment) since, if your "foundation" is incorrect, then there is not much hope for the rest your construction.

I have already provided for you some reports, that oppose your restrictive interpretation.

Both Imam Muslim and al-Bukhari have recorded from Abu Huraira that the Prophet (may pceace be upon him) said:

Banu Isra'il were ruled over by the Prophets. When one Prophet died, another succeeded him; but after me there is no prophet and there will be caliphs and they will be quite large in number...

You see, the Caliphs were many in number, not restricted to twelve.

ABU BAKR the first Khalifah,  DISAGREES with your interpretation, as report by Imam al-Bukhari:

"....She asked, "From what branch of Quraish are you?" He said, "You ask too many questions; I am Abu Bakr." She said, "How long shall we enjoy this good order (i.e. Islamic religion) which Allah has brought after the period of ignorance?" He said, "You will enjoy it as long as your Imams keep on abiding by its rules and regulations." She asked, "What are the Imams?" He said, "Were there not heads and chiefs of your nation who used to order the people and they used to obey them?" She said, "Yes." He said, "So they (i.e. the Imams) are those whom I meant."

Why did he use Imams, for the early leaders, without a distinction?

Sahih Muslim:

It is narrated on the authority of Tamim ad-Dari that the Messenger of Allah (may peace and blessings be upon him) observed:

Al-Din is a name of sincerity and well wishing. Upon this we said: For whom? He replied: For Allah, His Book, His Messenger and for the leaders [of the Muslims) and the general Muslims.

Here's the Arabic:
 قَالَ ‏"‏ لِلَّهِ وَلِكِتَابِهِ وَلِرَسُولِهِ وَلأَئِمَّةِ الْمُسْلِمِينَ وَعَامَّتِهِمْ

Ponder over: "IMAMS OF THE MUSLIMS" and tell me, did the Prophet differentiate between the specific and the general?

Reports with the term, Khalifahs:

خلافة النبوة ثلاثون سنة ثم يؤتي الله الملك من يشاء

The Prophetic Khilafah will last for thirty years. Then Allaah will give the dominion to whomever He wills.

الخلافة بعدي في أمتي ثلاثون سنة ثم ملك بعد ذلك

The khilafah after me in my Ummah will last for thirty years. Then there will be kingship after that.

That's what you call a SPECIFIC Khilafat! The remaining were KINGS and continued even after the twelfth in your view.

I think such examples are sufficient to destroy your false view of the Khalifahs.

Have another try.

:)






Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 26, 2015, 04:56:32 AM
All me to get this straight. You said:

Quote
You see, the Caliphs were many in number, not restricted to twelve.

You arrived at this conclusion from one hadith. Then, you said:

Quote
The khilafah after me in my Ummah will last for thirty years.

So, are you saying that the term "Caliph" was used to refer to five in one narration and more than twelve in another narration, and therefore, cannot be used to refer to twelve?
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 26, 2015, 09:29:55 AM
Update:

We have just passed fifty posts and it is clear that your strategy is to avoid providing any answers, while attempting to divert the topic by bringing side topics that deserve their own threads.

Thus, thread will be limited to 100 posts.

I do not want this to turn into another debate like Waleed that exceeded 400 posts which nobody is going to read, and it seems that is where we are going in that direction since you are refusing to answer the simplest questions.

It is your problem if you are unable to present your proofs by then. You have more than enough space.
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 26, 2015, 02:59:54 PM
Quote
Quote:
You see, the Caliphs were many in number, not restricted to twelve.

You arrived at this conclusion from one hadith.


There are many Hadith out there, but that one seemed to have won my heart...

Besides, a Hadith is BETTER than a BLIND opinion Farid, which you are following at the moment...

It's a Hadith from BOTH your Sahih collections that makes it CLEAR from its wording that those who lived AFTER the period of the twelve Khalifahs were also RECOGNISED as such, CONTRARY to what you have been expressing:

Quote
When the Prophet peace be upon him spoke about twelve men, he referred to them as caliphs/ameers.


And:

Quote
while the terms "caliph" and "ameer" were only used in the hadith of Jabir to refer to the twelve.


As for your other comment:

Quote
When the Prophet peace be upon him spoke about general rulers of the Islamic empire, he referred to them as many things.

He referred to them as Sultan and Ameer (Al-Bukhari #6530). He also referred to them as Imams


The term, "Ameer" has become CONTRADICTORY now. According to you it's used for specific and general rulers... Hehe.

"Imams" has been used by the Prophet to refer to ALL the Leaders of the Muslims. He said:

"Imams of the Mulims" (Sahih Muslim)

"Imams are from the Quraysh" (Sahih Hadith from multiple Sahabah)

So how can you restrict to the ordinary rulers?

Even Abu Bakr, the Khalifah himself, has opposed you and used Imams for the Leaders!

With all such proofs, you are being silly now! Your blind opinion is not SO VALUABLE that we should ignore all the textual evidence against it!

Be a man and at least admit that through reconciliation the terms Khalifahs, Imams, and Amirs were used INTERCHANGEABLY for all the Leaders!

You enquired:

Quote
Quote
 The khilafah after me in my Ummah will last for thirty years.

So, are you saying that the term "Caliph" was used to refer to five in one narration and more than twelve in another narration, and therefore, cannot be used to refer to twelve?


I used the above to show you a VALID example of a restricted Leadership. I said:

That's what you call a SPECIFIC Khilafat! The remaining were KINGS and continued even after the twelfth in your view.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 26, 2015, 03:07:12 PM
Thanks for locking Hadrami's post.

I am fine with the restriction to the number posts...

Our discussion has become prolonged because you have been wasting time reconciling the reports with different terms used in the Hadith...

I had to repeat myself so many times to get you to agree...

Finally when you agreed, you started offering bizarre interpretations...

:)
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 26, 2015, 07:56:14 PM
Don't worry, I will answer your questions, especially:


Was Islam in a state of glory during the times of the Prophet peace be upon him?

I avoided it, coz it wasn't relevant. I wanted to be clear on the Sunni interpretation. Even till this day, I have been chasing you to have a clear explanation of the reports that have offered different terms for the Leaders...

Let's not waste further time. I don't think you can reconcile those reports, without admitting that the narrators used different titles for the leaders interchangeably.

:)

Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 27, 2015, 09:11:38 AM
Quote
That's what you call a SPECIFIC Khilafat! The remaining were KINGS and continued even after the twelfth in your view.

The term caliph is linguistically applicable to all leaders in general, the twelve leaders mentioned in the hadith of Jabir, and the five leaders mentioned in the hadith of Safeena.

If one wants to be specific, then one may refer to some caliphs as kings. Though, as I have stated, even kings are caliphs. There is an abundance of usages of this in history in which kings are referred to as caliphs.

Ameer is similar to Caliph, since it too can be used to describe those leaders. However, Ameer is often used in a broader sense, since it is often used to refer to any leader, like generals.

Do you have an issue with these definitions?

Quote
Let's not waste further time. I don't think you can reconcile those reports, without admitting that the narrators used different titles for the leaders interchangeably.

I am aware that narrators use such terms interchangeably. That is not the issue. The problem is your lack of proof that Jabir used the term "Imam".
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 27, 2015, 01:21:52 PM
Again you are wasting your time and my time. You are full of contradictions:

Quote
The term caliph is linguistically applicable to all leaders in general, the twelve leaders mentioned in the hadith of Jabir, and the five leaders mentioned in the hadith of Safeena.


If the term can be applied to all the leaders, then why restrict it to the twelve leaders only?

Rather then submitting to a plausible explanation, you are making yourself look silly each time you open your mouth.

Then purposely, you jumped to the end of my post. Please comment on the following:

Quote
Quote:
You see, the Caliphs were many in number, not restricted to twelve.

Quote
You arrived at this conclusion from one hadith.


There are many Hadith out there, but that one seemed to have won my heart...

Besides, a Hadith is BETTER than a BLIND opinion Farid, which you are following at the moment...

It's a Hadith from BOTH your Sahih collections that makes it CLEAR from its wording that those who lived AFTER the period of the twelve Khalifahs were also RECOGNISED as such, CONTRARY to what you have been expressing:

Quote
Quote
When the Prophet peace be upon him spoke about twelve men, he referred to them as caliphs/ameers.

And:

Quote
while the terms "caliph" and "ameer" were only used in the hadith of Jabir to refer to the twelve.



As for your other comment:

Quote
Quote
When the Prophet peace be upon him spoke about general rulers of the Islamic empire, he referred to them as many things.

He referred to them as Sultan and Ameer (Al-Bukhari #6530). He also referred to them as Imams


The term, "Ameer" has become CONTRADICTORY now. According to you it's used for specific and general rulers... Hehe.

"Imams" has been used by the Prophet to refer to ALL the Leaders of the Muslims. He said:

"Imams of the Mulims" (Sahih Muslim)

"Imams are from the Quraysh" (Sahih Hadith from multiple Sahabah)

So how can you restrict it to the ordinary rulers?

Even Abu Bakr, the Khalifah himself, has opposed you and used Imams for the Leaders!

With all such proofs, you are being silly now! Your blind opinion is not SO VALUABLE that we should ignore all the textual evidence against it!


Rather than contradicting yourself and the textual evidences, please make some sense when reconciling the reports in question, OR GIVE UP WASTING TIME!
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 27, 2015, 01:42:52 PM
Quote
I am aware that narrators use such terms interchangeably. That is not the issue...


That is an ongoing issue because you have been unable to provide a reasonable and a satisfactory explanation between the reports that have used conflicting titles for the Islamic Leaders!

On top of that, the problem has now escalated to your stubbornness...

:)
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 27, 2015, 02:05:16 PM
Quote
If the term can be applied to all the leaders, then why restrict it to the twelve leaders only?

I already have. The narration does not restrict caliphs to twelve. It a prophecy of the period of greatness.

I never said that there will only be twelve caliphs, nor can this be inferred from the hadith.

Quote
Rather than contradicting yourself and the textual evidences, please make some sense when reconciling the reports in question, OR GIVE UP WASTING TIME!

I'm not wasting any time. You were given an opportunity on these boards to prove your faith by bringing evidence for the Imamah of the Twelve Imams from the hadith of Jabir. You've wasted 60% of that opportunity arguing linguistics. Keep it up.
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 27, 2015, 03:22:11 PM
Quote
The narration does not restrict caliphs to twelve...

I never said that there will only be twelve caliphs...


I think you are ignoring the issue at hand. You have been trying to reconcile the reports which speak about the leaders as "Khalifahs" and "Imams" and by doing so you stated:

Quote
When the Prophet peace be upon him spoke about twelve men, he referred to them as caliphs/ameers.

And:

When the Prophet peace be upon him spoke about general rulers of the Islamic empire, he referred to them as many things.

He referred to them as Sultan and Ameer (Al-Bukhari #6530). He also referred to them as Imams


Thus, you have divided the leaders into two groups.

You restricted the term "Khalifahs" to the twelve men of Jabir's Hadith and used "Imams" and other tiles for the rest of the leaders...

I then, provided for you many other reports to encounter your invalid division...

Rather than wasting FUTHER time by repeating yourself, mixing with one issue with another, and taking the discussion out of context, please provide for us a satisfactory explanation on the "contradictory" terms used for the leaders, by reconciling the reports in question!

I have made it clear, your division as shown above is invalid!

Quote
I'm not wasting any time. You were given an opportunity on these boards to prove your faith by bringing evidence for the Imamah of the Twelve Imams from the hadith of Jabir.


How could I have jumped from one issue to another when we didn't get down to finish the Sunni view of the Hadith first! When we reached the stage, where I asked you to reconcile the reports with different terms, you responded with excuses and invalid explanations. Ever since, you have been wasting time through your repetitions and contradictory views!

Belt up, and offer us a reasonable and a non contradictory explanation on the different terms relating to the leaders, or accept that all such terms were used interchangeably and that the Imams and Khalifas were the SAME MEN being spoken of in different reports, whether they arrived through Jabir or Anas bin Malik!
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 27, 2015, 07:27:32 PM
Farid, rather than chasing you for a valid explanation, let me take a different route, so that we to get to stage where I can offer my side of the view and call it an end.

Can you confirm whether Abu Bakr, Umar, and the rest, were included in the Hadith like:

"The Imams are from Quraysh..." (From multiple Sahabah)

"The Imams of the Muslims..." (Sahih Muslim)

If your answer is in the negative, can you tell why have refrained from including them in such Hadith...
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 27, 2015, 09:43:19 PM
Quote
accept that all such terms were used interchangeably and that the Imams and Khalifas were the SAME MEN being spoken of in different reports, whether they arrived through Jabir or Anas bin Malik!

Do you mean that the hadith of Safeena, the hadith of Jabir, and the hadith of Anas, are all referring to the same people?

Quote
If your answer is in the negative, can you tell why have refrained from including them in such Hadith...

The narrations are guidelines, not prophecies. So it isn't like the Prophet peace be upon him used the word "Imam" with the intention of speaking about those men, but is rather giving guidelines as one can see from the two hadiths that you have previously quoted in full.

Linguistically though, they are Imams.
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 28, 2015, 12:05:53 AM
Quote
Do you mean that the hadith of Safeena, the hadith of Jabir, and the hadith of Anas, are all referring to the same people?


Did you see me include the Hadith of Safeena? I mentioned two names, Jabir and Anas.

Quote
The narrations are guidelines, not prophecies. So it isn't like the Prophet peace be upon him used the word "Imam" with the intention of speaking about those men, but is rather giving guidelines as one can see from the two hadiths that you have previously quoted in full.


Whatever! The end result is, we take the prophetic messages from the narrations! So to say that the Prophet just gave his "guidelines" about those men without having the intent to speak about them as Imams, is plain silly!

Secondly, we are not required to look into the prophetic intentions, we obey him and follow him on all matters!

Now, cut out your philosophical crap and answer my question with some sense and clarity!
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 28, 2015, 12:43:48 AM
I did.

You don't need to like my answers. Carry on.
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 28, 2015, 02:37:13 AM
Your philosophy is too philosophical for us, lol, so I think it will be better to revert back to the reconciliation stage.

You said:

Quote
The narration does not restrict caliphs to twelve...

I never said that there will only be twelve caliphs...


I think you are ignoring the issue at hand. You have been trying to reconcile the reports which speak about the leaders as "Khalifahs" and "Imams" and by doing so you stated:

Quote
When the Prophet peace be upon him spoke about twelve men, he referred to them as caliphs/ameers.

And:

When the Prophet peace be upon him spoke about general rulers of the Islamic empire, he referred to them as many things.

He referred to them as Sultan and Ameer (Al-Bukhari #6530). He also referred to them as Imams


Thus, you have divided the leaders into two groups.

You restricted the term "Khalifahs" to the twelve men of Jabir's Hadith and used "Imams" and other tiles for the rest of the leaders...

I then, provided for you many other reports to encounter your invalid division...

Rather than wasting FUTHER time by repeating yourself, mixing with one issue with another, and taking the discussion out of context, please provide for us a satisfactory explanation on the "contradictory" terms used for the leaders, by reconciling the reports in question...

I have made it clear, your division as shown above is invalid!
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 28, 2015, 04:02:02 AM
Quote
You restricted the term "Khalifahs" to the twelve men of Jabir's Hadith and used "Imams" and other tiles for the rest of the leaders...

The term Caliphs is used in the hadith of Jabir, yes, as well as other narrations, like the hadith of Safeenah and Al Irbadh.
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 28, 2015, 12:44:09 PM
Quote
The term Caliphs is used in the hadith of Jabir...


Wasting time as usual.

Ok, the term used for the leaders is Caliphs, but the report ALSO claims that all such men (as the Leaders) will be FROM the Quraysh...

On the contrary, a STRONGER  version of the report says, it will be the Imams (as the Leaders) and all from Quraysh...

So what's reality? Who was selected to be the actual Leaders from amongst the Quraysh?

Was it, the Caliphs or the Imams?

Since there is a contradiction involved and the stronger Hadith is the one with Imams, what if I say, we should reject the other as a contradictory Shadh, how will you defend the report of Jabir?

The report of Safeenah does not state that the Caliphs will be FROM THE QURAYSH, so you can't use that as a support...

And don't forget, ibn Hajar has stated that he has collected the version, "The Imams are from Quraysh" from FORTY Sahabah.















Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Farid on August 28, 2015, 10:20:50 PM
Quote
On the contrary, a STRONGER  version of the report says, it will be the Imams (as the Leaders) and all from Quraysh...

So what's reality? Who was selected to be the actual Leaders from amongst the Quraysh? 

Was it, the Caliphs or the Imams?

Those chosen to rule were both Caliphs and Imams.

Quote
Since there is a contradiction involved and the stronger Hadith is the one with Imams, what if I say, we should reject the other as a contradictory Shadh, how will you defend the report of Jabir? 

Ok. Let us reject the hadith of Jabir then.
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Shia_student on August 29, 2015, 01:42:18 AM
I tried many times to get you to reconcile the reports with differing terms (in a satisfactory manner) but all you have done is repeated your contradictory opinions...

I am sorry, I don't value opinions when they oppose the authentic reports...

At least Hani was honest enough to admit that the reports with different tiles (caliphs and Imams) were speaking about the same men

Anyhow, our discussion stops here, until I see a valid response explaining the different titles used for the Leaders...

So far, I have only seen your repeated view which goes against other reports and your recent philosophy that conflicts with the nature of the Prophet and his statements...

Since we couldn't complete and appreciate your interpretation (due to the time you have wasted), I cannot offer my view at the moment, simply because I do not know were I stand with your view in reference to the contradictory titles found in the Sunni reports...

I would have offered my interpretation in a way, where it would have been difficult for you to argue against, but that can't take place without the clarity of yours first...

Finally, I am utterly sorry for being slightly harsh with you at times. I do mean it. I hope you can ignore that...

Take care. It was nice speaking to you.












Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Hadrami on August 29, 2015, 02:20:07 AM
Started a "discussion" about 12 khulafa hadith, avoiding to answer questions and after 70 posts, not a single interpretation of that hadith from shia point of view. Anither typical shia "debater" :D
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: Ebn Hussein on August 29, 2015, 06:23:49 AM
It started getting funny and typical Shit...ite when the conspiracy stuff started ("agents" blah blah blah). Big ups to Farid, the amount of cheap attacks he had to ignore from his opponent. I couldn't have control myself. I think what helped him controlling himself was the funny comment where his opponent suggested that he and his fellow Shias have hope left for Farid (to be guided to the Rafidi religion of mess).

In the end of the day, I am pretty sure that the non-biased reader will see in what a mess the Rafidah are. Even one of the most quoted hadith they use to misguide and fool the laymen by telling them that it is a clear-cut hadith for their 12 fallible Imams, turns out to be no where close to Qat3i evidence, not even a Qareenah. The best out come is that every Shia who followed this debate will think twice to use this hadith against a Sunni. Otherwise he will end up like every other Rafidi having to write a 10.000 word essay to somehow prove an Asl (foundation) of the Deen ...

(http://forum.twelvershia.net/official-debates/myself-vs-farid-on-the-12-khalifas/?action=dlattach;attach=562)
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: GreatChineseFall on August 29, 2015, 10:44:08 PM
Quote
If place two statements together:

"The Imams are from the Quraysh"
"The twelve Khalifas will be from the Quraysh"


The meaning we derive is that, the Imams and Khalifas has been used interchangeably. They will be from the Quraysh and their number will be twelve, not that they are different to each other.

Is this really the case? If someone says:

"The Prophets are from Banu Israeel"
"The twelve Messengers will be from Banu Israeel"

Does that mean the terms are equivalent?
Title: Re: Myself Vs Farid on the 12 Khalifas
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on August 31, 2015, 02:51:56 PM
It started getting funny and typical Shit...ite when the conspiracy stuff started ("agents" blah blah blah). Big ups to Farid, the amount of cheap attacks he had to ignore from his opponent. I couldn't have control myself. I think what helped him controlling himself was the funny comment where his opponent suggested that he and his fellow Shias have hope left for Farid (to be guided to the Rafidi religion of mess).

In the end of the day, I am pretty sure that the non-biased reader will see in what a mess the Rafidah are. Even one of the most quoted hadith they use to misguide and fool the laymen by telling them that it is a clear-cut hadith for their 12 fallible Imams, turns out to be no where close to Qat3i evidence, not even a Qareenah. The best out come is that every Shia who followed this debate will think twice to use this hadith against a Sunni. Otherwise he will end up like every other Rafidi having to write a 10.000 word essay to somehow prove an Asl (foundation) of the Deen ...

(http://forum.twelvershia.net/official-debates/myself-vs-farid-on-the-12-khalifas/?action=dlattach;attach=562)

LOL that chalk board image is so true!!!!