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Naveen Al-Rafidhi (Muslim720 and NaveenHussain only)

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muslim720

Naveen Al-Rafidhi (Muslim720 and NaveenHussain only)
« on: May 09, 2016, 12:09:25 AM »
Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakathu,
After having given up on Shia-Sunni debates, I had to return to this website due to this one person I ran into on Facebook. 

Recently, a brother (he is my neighbor as well) who has turned towards his deen posted an image of Donald Trump holding an African-American child.  Beneath it, he he had written something to the effect that if Trump could show mercy towards a black child, why don't we show love toward Shias?  That is a noble thought.  Personally, I believe no Sunni is better than a Shia (or vice-versa) except by their faith and good deeds.

What my neighbor wrote would be welcomed by Shias but not Rawaafidh.  So a friend of his - going by the kunya "Al Rafidhi" - started commenting on his status instead of showing appreciation.  I warned the brother (my neighbor) that this Rafidhi is going to run him through a series of steps, all well known to people like myself who have spent time listening to their verbal diarrhea, which will eventually lead him to curse the Sahabas (ra).

To retaliate, this Rafidhi informed me that the wives of the Prophet [saw] were not Ahlul Bayt [ra] as stated in Sahih Muslim.  I showed him from Sahih Muslim how the Prophet [saw] referred to his wives [ra] as "Ahlul Bayt".  I even showed him Qur'an 33:33 but he had to retaliate with the narration in which Zayd ibn Arqam [ra] makes a special exception for other members of the household of the Prophet [saw].  In fact, Zayd [ra] states that wives are members of the household.  But of course our Rafidhi friend was taken for a ride by his scholars. 

Here is that narration:
“He (Husain) said to Zaid: ‘Who are the members of his household?  Aren’t his wives the members of his family?’  Thereupon he said: ‘His wives are the members of his family but here the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of Zakat is forbidden.’  And he said: ‘Who are they?’  Thereupon he said: ‘Ali and the offspring of Ali, Aqil and the offspring of Aqil and the offspring of Jafar and the offspring of Abbas.’  Husain said: ‘These are those for whom the acceptance of Zakat is forbidden?’  Zaid said: ‘Yes.’ ”

I was at work so I could type so much on Facebook but yesterday he messaged me again asking me if I believe that Abu Talib was a Muslim or not.  He also referred to him as Sahaba.  I explained to him that in order for one to be the Sahaba, he has to have seen the Prophet [saw], accepted Islam and died upon that faith.  Abu Talib rendered service to Islam and aided the Prophet [saw] - and for that I pray for him - but there is not one single authentic narration which establishes the fact that he accepted Islam.  Having said that, we do not curse him.  Never!  Thereafter, I tried to inform him why Abu Talib's faith became important.  It became important because Shias were consistently mocking other Sahabas [ra] because their parents died mushrik.  So if one has to be judged by their parents' iman, then would they (the Shias) judge Imam Ali [ra] by the same standards which they have established themselves?

What was his rebuttal?  Wallaahi, word for word the following: "I wanted to ask about Abu Talib [as].  If that's the criteria for being a Sahabah, he [as] was a Sahabah, whereas Abu Bakr and Umar, etc. were not."

From there our conversation spiraled into something ugly so he said that he would like to humiliate me on a public forum.  I asked him to see me here.

If he shows up, please welcome him.  This is an opportunity for me to make Muharram come early for him because as soon as he is done, he will be slapping himself wailing, "why did I bother debating him?"!!!


Edit by Farid: Topic title has been changed in order to make this a one on one conversation.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 04:48:32 PM by Farid »

NaveenHussain

Re: Naveen Al-Rafidhi
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2016, 06:53:24 AM »
Quote
Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakathu,
After having given up on Shia-Sunni debates, I had to return to this website due to this one person I ran into on Facebook. 

Wa `alaykum al-salaam wa rahmatullahe wa barakatuh.


Quote
Recently, a brother (he is my neighbor as well) who has turned towards his deen posted an image of Donald Trump holding an African-American child.  Beneath it, he he had written something to the effect that if Trump could show mercy towards a black child, why don't we show love toward Shias?  That is a noble thought.  Personally, I believe no Sunni is better than a Shia (or vice-versa) except by their faith and good deeds.

Alhamdulillah, I think we both agree it's all about Taqwa, Emaan, etc.

Quote
What my neighbor wrote would be welcomed by Shias but not Rawaafidh.  So a friend of his - going by the kunya "Al Rafidhi" - started commenting on his status instead of showing appreciation.  I warned the brother (my neighbor) that this Rafidhi is going to run him through a series of steps, all well known to people like myself who have spent time listening to their verbal diarrhea, which will eventually lead him to curse the Sahabas (ra).

I did welcome the brother's post; it was nice of him to consider Shias. Some people have an inability to comprehend context, and thus fall into the trap of pessimism. May Allah (swt) keep us clear from such negativity. What's wrong with cursing the misguided of the Sahabah? Many Sunni scholars note that the accursed Mu`awiyyah ordered the cursing of Imam Ali (as).

Quote
To retaliate, this Rafidhi informed me that the wives of the Prophet [saw] were not Ahlul Bayt [ra] as stated in Sahih Muslim.  I showed him from Sahih Muslim how the Prophet [saw] referred to his wives [ra] as "Ahlul Bayt".  I even showed him Qur'an 33:33 but he had to retaliate with the narration in which Zayd ibn Arqam [ra] makes a special exception for other members of the household of the Prophet [saw].  In fact, Zayd [ra] states that wives are members of the household.  But of course our Rafidhi friend was taken for a ride by his scholars. 

In all my years of debating Bakris [so-called Sunnis], I have realized that they're often very cunningly clever; they don't like to give the whole story. I suppose they're afraid of their weak arguments coming to light. I already explained it to you, but since you seem forgetful, I'll explain it again, in shaa'llah. In regards to the term Ahlul Bayt, it can be used in a general, or specific, manner. Just as many Americans will say that their own pets are a "part of the home/house." Quraan 33:33 is said to be about a specific People of the House [Ahlul Bayt (as)]. It becomes clear once you consider some of your own Sunni ahadeeth:

Yazid b. Hayyan reported:
We went to him (Zaid b. Arqam) and said to him. You have found goodness (for you had the honour) to live in the company of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and offered prayer behind him, and the rest of the hadith is the same but with this variation of wording that lie said: Behold, for I am leaving amongst you two weighty things, one of which is the Book of Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, and that is the rope of Allah. He who holds it fast would be on right guidance and he who abandons it would be in error, and in this (hadith) these words are also found: We said: Who are amongst the members of the household? Aren't the wives (of the Holy Prophet) included amongst the members of his house hold? Thereupon he said: No, by Allah, a woman lives with a man (as his wife) for a certain period; he then divorces her and she goes back to her parents and to her people; the members of his household include his ownself and his kith and kin (who are related to him by blood) and for him the acceptance of Zakat is prohibited.
حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ بَكَّارِ بْنِ الرَّيَّانِ، حَدَّثَنَا حَسَّانُ، - يَعْنِي ابْنَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ - عَنْ سَعِيدٍ، - وَهُوَ ابْنُ مَسْرُوقٍ - عَنْ يَزِيدَ بْنِ حَيَّانَ، عَنْ زَيْدِ بْنِ أَرْقَمَ، قَالَ دَخَلْنَا عَلَيْهِ فَقُلْنَا لَهُ لَقَدْ رَأَيْتَ خَيْرًا ‏.‏ لَقَدْ صَاحَبْتَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَصَلَّيْتَ خَلْفَهُ ‏.‏ وَسَاقَ الْحَدِيثَ بِنَحْوِ حَدِيثِ أَبِي حَيَّانَ غَيْرَ أَنَّهُ قَالَ ‏ "‏ أَلاَ وَإِنِّي تَارِكٌ فِيكُمْ ثَقَلَيْنِ أَحَدُهُمَا كِتَابُ اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ هُوَ حَبْلُ اللَّهِ مَنِ اتَّبَعَهُ كَانَ عَلَى الْهُدَى وَمَنْ تَرَكَهُ كَانَ عَلَى ضَلاَلَةٍ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ وَفِيهِ فَقُلْنَا مَنْ أَهْلُ بَيْتِهِ نِسَاؤُهُ قَالَ لاَ وَايْمُ اللَّهِ إِنَّ الْمَرْأَةَ تَكُونُ مَعَ الرَّجُلِ الْعَصْرَ مِنَ الدَّهْرِ ثُمَّ يُطَلِّقُهَا فَتَرْجِعُ إِلَى أَبِيهَا وَقَوْمِهَا أَهْلُ بَيْتِهِ أَصْلُهُ وَعَصَبَتُهُ الَّذِينَ حُرِمُوا الصَّدَقَةَ بَعْدَهُ ‏.‏
Reference    : Sahih Muslim 2408 d
In-book reference    : Book 44, Hadith 58
USC-MSA web (English) reference    : Book 31, Hadith 5923
  (deprecated numbering scheme)

and this:

Yazid b. Hayyan reported, I went along with Husain b. Sabra and 'Umar b. Muslim to Zaid b. Arqam and, as we sat by his side, Husain said to him:
Zaid. you have been able to acquire a great virtue that you saw Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) listened to his talk, fought by his side in (different) battles, offered prayer behind me. Zaid, you have in fact earned a great virtue. Zaid, narrate to us what you heard from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ). He said: I have grown old and have almost spent my age and I have forgotten some of the things which I remembered in connection with Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), so accept whatever I narrate to you, and which I do not narrate do not compel me to do that. He then said: One day Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) stood up to deliver sermon at a watering place known as Khumm situated between Mecca and Medina. He praised Allah, extolled Him and delivered the sermon and. exhorted (us) and said: Now to our purpose. O people, I am a human being. I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death) from my Lord and I, in response to Allah's call, (would bid good-bye to you), but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my household I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family. He (Husain) said to Zaid: Who are the members of his household? Aren't his wives the members of his family? Thereupon he said: His wives are the members of his family (but here) the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. And he said: Who are they? Thereupon he said: 'Ali and the offspring of 'Ali, 'Aqil and the offspring of 'Aqil and the offspring of Ja'far and the offspring of 'Abbas. Husain said: These are those for whom the acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. Zaid said: Yes.
حَدَّثَنِي زُهَيْرُ بْنُ حَرْبٍ، وَشُجَاعُ بْنُ مَخْلَدٍ، جَمِيعًا عَنِ ابْنِ عُلَيَّةَ، قَالَ زُهَيْرٌ حَدَّثَنَا إِسْمَاعِيلُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، حَدَّثَنِي أَبُو حَيَّانَ، حَدَّثَنِي يَزِيدُ بْنُ حَيَّانَ، قَالَ انْطَلَقْتُ أَنَا وَحُصَيْنُ، بْنُ سَبْرَةَ وَعُمَرُ بْنُ مُسْلِمٍ إِلَى زَيْدِ بْنِ أَرْقَمَ فَلَمَّا جَلَسْنَا إِلَيْهِ قَالَ لَهُ حُصَيْنٌ لَقَدْ لَقِيتَ يَا زَيْدُ خَيْرًا كَثِيرًا رَأَيْتَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَسَمِعْتَ حَدِيثَهُ وَغَزَوْتَ مَعَهُ وَصَلَّيْتَ خَلْفَهُ لَقَدْ لَقِيتَ يَا زَيْدُ خَيْرًا كَثِيرًا حَدِّثْنَا يَا زَيْدُ مَا سَمِعْتَ مِنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم - قَالَ - يَا ابْنَ أَخِي وَاللَّهِ لَقَدْ كَبِرَتْ سِنِّي وَقَدُمَ عَهْدِي وَنَسِيتُ بَعْضَ الَّذِي كُنْتُ أَعِي مِنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَمَا حَدَّثْتُكُمْ فَاقْبَلُوا وَمَا لاَ فَلاَ تُكَلِّفُونِيهِ ‏.‏ ثُمَّ قَالَ قَامَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَوْمًا فِينَا خَطِيبًا بِمَاءٍ يُدْعَى خُمًّا بَيْنَ مَكَّةَ وَالْمَدِينَةِ فَحَمِدَ اللَّهَ وَأَثْنَى عَلَيْهِ وَوَعَظَ وَذَكَّرَ ثُمَّ قَالَ ‏"‏ أَمَّا بَعْدُ أَلاَ أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ فَإِنَّمَا أَنَا بَشَرٌ يُوشِكُ أَنْ يَأْتِيَ رَسُولُ رَبِّي فَأُجِيبَ وَأَنَا تَارِكٌ فِيكُمْ ثَقَلَيْنِ أَوَّلُهُمَا كِتَابُ اللَّهِ فِيهِ الْهُدَى وَالنُّورُ فَخُذُوا بِكِتَابِ اللَّهِ وَاسْتَمْسِكُوا بِهِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ فَحَثَّ عَلَى كِتَابِ اللَّهِ وَرَغَّبَ فِيهِ ثُمَّ قَالَ ‏"‏ وَأَهْلُ بَيْتِي أُذَكِّرُكُمُ اللَّهَ فِي أَهْلِ بَيْتِي أُذَكِّرُكُمُ اللَّهَ فِي أَهْلِ بَيْتِي أُذَكِّرُكُمُ اللَّهَ فِي أَهْلِ بَيْتِي ‏"‏ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ لَهُ حُصَيْنٌ وَمَنْ أَهْلُ بَيْتِهِ يَا زَيْدُ أَلَيْسَ نِسَاؤُهُ مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِهِ قَالَ نِسَاؤُهُ مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِهِ وَلَكِنْ أَهْلُ بَيْتِهِ مَنْ حُرِمَ الصَّدَقَةَ بَعْدَهُ ‏.‏ قَالَ وَمَنْ هُمْ قَالَ هُمْ آلُ عَلِيٍّ وَآلُ عَقِيلٍ وَآلُ جَعْفَرٍ وَآلُ عَبَّاسٍ ‏.‏ قَالَ كُلُّ هَؤُلاَءِ حُرِمَ الصَّدَقَةَ قَالَ نَعَمْ ‏.‏
Reference    : Sahih Muslim 2408 a
In-book reference    : Book 44, Hadith 55
USC-MSA web (English) reference    : Book 31, Hadith 5920
  (deprecated numbering scheme)

and this:

The verse

"Verily Allah intends to ... (33:33)"

was revealed to the Prophet (S) in the house of Umm Salama. Upon that, the Prophet gathered Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husayn, and covered them with a cloak, and he also covered ‘Ali who was behind him. Then the Prophet said: "O’ Allah! These are the Members of my House (Ahlul-Bayt). Keep them away from every impurity and purify them with a perfect purification.”Umm Salama (the wife of Prophet) asked: "Am I also included among them O Apostle of Allah?”the Prophet replied: "You remain in your position and you are toward a good ending."

Sunni reference: Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, pp 351,663

Quote
I was at work so I could type so much on Facebook but yesterday he messaged me again asking me if I believe that Abu Talib was a Muslim or not.  He also referred to him as Sahaba.  I explained to him that in order for one to be the Sahaba, he has to have seen the Prophet [saw], accepted Islam and died upon that faith.  Abu Talib rendered service to Islam and aided the Prophet [saw] - and for that I pray for him - but there is not one single authentic narration which establishes the fact that he accepted Islam.  Having said that, we do not curse him.  Never!  Thereafter, I tried to inform him why Abu Talib's faith became important.  It became important because Shias were consistently mocking other Sahabas [ra] because their parents died mushrik.  So if one has to be judged by their parents' iman, then would they (the Shias) judge Imam Ali [ra] by the same standards which they have established themselves?

What was his rebuttal?  Wallaahi, word for word the following: "I wanted to ask about Abu Talib [as].  If that's the criteria for being a Sahabah, he [as] was a Sahabah, whereas Abu Bakr and Umar, etc. were not."

There are many proofs that we can give to prove the correct `Aqeedah of Abu Talib (as), but if one's heart is blinded, it will not be palatable. Your ignorance of Tareekh al-Islaam [Islamic history] isn't a pass for you to reject; only an ignoramus would do as such.


Quote
If he shows up, please welcome him.  This is an opportunity for me to make Muharram come early for him because as soon as he is done, he will be slapping himself wailing, "why did I bother debating him?"!!!

I'll let `A'ishah take care of that tab [nice try, though]:

Ahmad ibn Hanbal in his Musnad, vol. 6, p. 274, Number 26391 (edited by al-Arnaut) records that Aisha said:
ان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قبض وهو في حجري ثم وضعت رأسه على وسادة وقمت ألتدم مع النساء واضرب وجهي
Allah’s Apostle died in my lap. I then placed his head on a pillow AND STARTED DOING ILTIDAM with the other women AND I BEAT MY FACE.
Shaykh al-Arnaut says:
إسناده حسن من أجل ابن إسحاق
Its chain is hasan on account of Ibn Ishaq
Abu Ya’la has also recorded this same report in his Musnad, vol. 8, p. 63, Number 4586 (edited by Husayn Salim Asad). Husayn Salim Asad says about it:
إسناده حسن
Its chain is hasan.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 07:03:56 AM by NaveenHussain »

muslim720

Re: Naveen Al-Rafidhi
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2016, 01:01:08 PM »

In all my years of debating Bakris [so-called Sunnis], I have realized that they're often very cunningly clever; they don't like to give the whole story. I suppose they're afraid of their weak arguments coming to light. I already explained it to you, but since you seem forgetful, I'll explain it again, in shaa'llah. In regards to the term Ahlul Bayt, it can be used in a general, or specific, manner. Just as many Americans will say that their own pets are a "part of the home/house." Quraan 33:33 is said to be about a specific People of the House [Ahlul Bayt (as)]. It becomes clear once you consider some of your own Sunni ahadeeth

Glad you showed up!  Now I want to say two things but before that, allow me to address what I have highlighted from your post.  The entire Sahihain is archived online and translated in English.  Every Muslim and non-Muslim can access them with a few clicks.  Can you say the same regarding your books that are kept under lock-and-key? 

You live in Washington DC area and I have been to Imam Ali Center (where they have "Happy Birthday Imam Zaman" events with birthday cakes reading just that), Manassas Mosque and Islamic Education Center.  I have yet to see an English translation of Al-Kafi in any of those mosques.  On the contrary, if you go to IEC, they have an entire stand with pamphlets that explain Shia practices using Sunni hadiths. 

Why am I saying all this?  Because we like to present the whole story.  If we were in the business of hiding, we would not have made our Sahihain available to everyone.  It is your ilk that rely on obscure narrations and isolated reports while hiding away their own problematic hadiths.  So this should be a good transition into my first point.

1.  The report you have shared by Zayd ibn Arqam [ra] occurs in the same Sahih Muslim with different wordings.  In other words, the same incident (although one event) has been reported numerously with different wordings.  It is our tradition that teaches us to look at all reports pertaining to a matter in order to get the entire picture in its clearest form.  And it is quite clear, from what I have shared and what you have posted, that Zayd [ra] was not excluding the wives [ra] of the Prophet [saw] from anything except in the matter of Zakat.  Why?  Because while a man is responsible to feed his blood relatives, a woman can be divorced and therefore, he is no longer be responsible for them.  As for blood relatives, there are no cutting ties and hence you are always held accountable.  This is of importance because the Prophet [saw] divorced some of his wives.

Unlike your lot that considers the Imams [ra] to be infallible, we do not consider Sahabas [ra] to be infallible.  And the statement of one Sahaba [ra] is not considered Divine Revelation, especially when the Qur'an and the Prophet [saw] consider the wives [ra] to be Ahlul Bayt [ra].  Again, Zayd [ra] was making a distinction based on an exception.  He was not making an exclusion!

Speaking of presenting part of the picture, do you know that the same Zayd ibn Arqam [ra], says the following in the preceding part of the same Sahih Muslim?
"I have grown old and have almost spent my age and I have forgotten some of the things which I remembered in connection with Allah’s Messenger.

For more, please visit: http://www.sjiieten-ontmaskerd.nl/AhlelBayt.com/www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/ahlel-bayt/arqam.html

2.  Now let us get to the second thing I wanted to mention.  While my brothers here have made my task very easy, they have left nothing for you.  Singing praises of Abu Talib does not make him a Muslim or believer.  You have to bring proof.  Also, I am still waiting for you to find the verses regarding Fadak in the Qur'an.  Trust me, not a single Shia scholar worth the name - unless he is honest and God-fearing - shares those verses when talking about Fadak.  You may ask why!  Because the verses themselves, without the need for any explanations or exegesis, make it clear that properties such as Fadak cannot be under sole ownership.  In other words, giving Fadak to Fatima [ra] - whether as a gift or inheritance - is against the Qur'an.

Find the verses please.  The reason why I am stretching this out is to show you as to who presents part of the picture, Shias or Sunnis.  So far, you have came up with nothing, hence, it is obvious as to who has been duped.

Alhamdulilah, all your accusations point right back at you and your buffoonery has made me laugh out loud on a Monday morning.  Thank you! 
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 01:38:47 PM by muslim720 »

muslim720

Re: Naveen Al-Rafidhi
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2016, 01:16:37 PM »
Shaykh al-Arnaut says:
إسناده حسن من أجل ابن إسحاق
Its chain is hasan on account of Ibn Ishaq
Abu Ya’la has also recorded this same report in his Musnad, vol. 8, p. 63, Number 4586 (edited by Husayn Salim Asad). Husayn Salim Asad says about it:
إسناده حسن
Its chain is hasan.

There is more to hadith grading than just its chain, such as matn, et cetera.  Obviously you do not know this because your madhab copied the science of hadiths from us and did a pretty bad job in doing so.

Do you know that there is a narration in Al-Kafi, with a sahih chain - not hasan but sahih - in which we have the Prophet's [saw] donkey, Ufair, telling a story?  Please do not come back and say that animals speak as per the Qur'an, like ants in the case of Sulaiman [as].  I am talking about sanad, not miracles.  When you have a narration in which a donkey is narrating a story, that donkey becomes part of the chain.  So how do you authenticate the donkey's story?  How do you establish the donkey's reliability?  Ilm-ul haiwaan?  Yet, there is a narration in Al-Kafi which narrates a story on the authority of Ufair, the Prophet's [saw] donkey.  But Shias are quick to weaken it.  That is your prerogative.  You can grade Al-Kafi however you want but I wanted to teach you the basics of the science of hadiths. 

Having a hasan chain means nothing just like your scholars distance themselves away from the hadith narrated by a donkey although its chain is sahih!
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 01:19:02 PM by muslim720 »

NaveenHussain

Re: Naveen Al-Rafidhi
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2016, 03:09:28 PM »

There are many proofs that we can give to prove the correct `Aqeedah of Abu Talib (as), but if one's heart is blinded, it will not be palatable. Your ignorance of Tareekh al-Islaam [Islamic history] isn't a pass for you to reject; only an ignoramus would do as such.
Quote
Bro, you have no read the ridiculous reports regarding the shahadah of Abu Talib in your own books. Just read the reports in al-Kafi, see how ridiculous they are.

Which version of al-Kafi? I hope you know that it's said enemies of Islam are tampering with the online, or PDF, versions. Please bring forward the book and hadeeth number, if you're truthful.

Quote
And if you are so-confident then let me throw a small challenge to you. Tell us what did Ali(RA) inherit from Abu Talib after he died?  Please back your answer with a reliable Shia report, not a bunch of excuses.

[NOTE: We have authentic Sunni reports which state, Ali(RA) didn't inherit anything from Abu talib, because he wasn't a Muslim].
First of all, it's said in Islamic law, the Muslim may inherit from the Kafir, and not vice-versa, so you need to find reliable proofs. It's said to be sort of similar to how a Muslim man being able to marry an Ahlul-Kitabi woman, but not vice-versa. Such ahadeeth that show a Muslim can inherit from a Kafir, are said to be in the Shia book Man la Yahduruhu al-Faqih.



Quote
I'll let `A'ishah take care of that tab [nice try, though]:

Ahmad ibn Hanbal in his Musnad, vol. 6, p. 274, Number 26391 (edited by al-Arnaut) records that Aisha said:
ان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قبض وهو في حجري ثم وضعت رأسه على وسادة وقمت ألتدم مع النساء واضرب وجهي
Allah’s Apostle died in my lap. I then placed his head on a pillow AND STARTED DOING ILTIDAM with the other women AND I BEAT MY FACE.
Shaykh al-Arnaut says:
إسناده حسن من أجل ابن إسحاق
Its chain is hasan on account of Ibn Ishaq
Abu Ya’la has also recorded this same report in his Musnad, vol. 8, p. 63, Number 4586 (edited by Husayn Salim Asad). Husayn Salim Asad says about it:
إسناده حسن
Its chain is hasan.

Quote
Shaykh Shu`ayb al-Arnout said :
) إسناده حسن من أجل ابن إسحاق: وهو محمد، وقد صرح بالتحديث هنا، فانتفت شبهة تدليسه. وبقية رجاله ثقات رجال الشيخين غير يحيى بن عباد بن عبد الله بن الزبير أخرج له أصحاب السنن، وهو ثقة، يعقوب: هو ابن إبراهيم بن سعد بن إبراهيم بن عبد الرحمن بن عوف. وأخرجه أبو يعلى (4586) ، والبيهقي في “الدلائل” 7/213 من طريقين عن ابن إسحاق، بهذا الإسناد. وأخرجه مختصراً ابن سعد 2/261-262 و262 من طريق عيسى بن معمر، وأبي الأسود، كلاهما عن عباد بن عبد الله، عن عائشة، به. قلنا: لكن في طريقهما الواقدي، وهو متروك. وأخرجه ابن سعد 2/262 من طريق زيد بن أبي عتاب، عن عروهَ، عن عائشة، به. قلنا: وفي طريقه الواقدي كذلك، وهو متروك. وقد سلف نحوه برقم (24039) و (24216) . قلنا: وقولها: وقمت ألتدم مع النساء وأضرب وجهي. فيه نكارة ولم نجده إلا في هذه السياقة، والسيدة عائشة زوجة النبي صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ لا يخفى عليها حديث ابن مسعود مرفوعاً: ليس منا من ضرب الخدود، وشق الجيوب، ودعا بدعوى الجاهلية” وهو حديث صحيح سلف في مسند ابن مسعود برقم (3658) ، وقال السندي في تفسيره هناك: ليس منا، أي: ليس من أهل طريقتنا وسنتنا.
[Rough Translation]
Isnaad is hassan because of Ibn Ishaaq: he is Muhammad, the hadith is stated by him and is suspected of tadlees, however rest of the men are trustworthy (men of the shaikhain) except Yahya bin ‘Ibaad bin Abdullah bin Zubair who is from ashaab as sunan, and he is trustworthy; Yaqoob: he is Ibn Ibrahim bin Sa’ad bin Ibrahim bin ‘Abd ar-Rahman bin ‘Awf. and it is narrated by Ab Ya`la (4586), and Bayhiqi in “Ad-Dalail” 7/213 from two routes (one) from Ibn Ishaaq with this chain. And it is also narrated in Mukhtasar Ibn Sa’ad 2/261-262 from ‘Essa bin Ma’amar, and Abi Aswad, and all of them from ‘Ibaad bin ‘Abdullah from ‘Aisha. we say: but in their route there is Waqdi , who is matrooq. And it is narrated in by Ibn Sa’ad 2/262 from Zaid bin Abi ‘Itaab, from ‘Arwa, from ‘Aisha. we say: It has in its chain Waqdi also , who is (again) matrooq. We say and her saying:”stood up with women and started doing iltidam( an arabic word meaning hitting the face and chest ) and hitting my face” it is denied and it is not found except in this context, and Sayeeda ‘Aisha is the wife of Rasool Allah (s.a.w)and  the following marfoo’ narration of Ibn Masood is not hidden from her: ” He who slaps his cheeks, rips his pockets, or calls out the cries of the pre-Islamic period of ignorance is not of us.” and it s a sahih hadith quoted in musnad via Ibn Masood (3658), Al-Sindi said in its tafseer there: “not from us” means not from the our ways and sunan.

Note: We did not mention the narration that had al-Waaqdi that states :
فعجبت من حداثة سني أن رسول الله قبض في حجري فلم أتركه علی حاله حتی یغسل و لکن تناولت وسادة فوضعتها تحت رأسه ثم قمت مع النساء أصيح و ألتدم
because Waadiqi is Matrook(abandoned).

In the above narration `Aisha(r.a) herself testifies that it was due to her insolence and immaturity (  فمن سفهي وحداثة سني ) she did what she did. Which implies her regret over it.

حَدَّثَنَا هِشَامُ بْنُ عَمَّارٍ، حَدَّثَنَا سُفْيَانُ، عَنْ عَبْدِ الْكَرِيمِ الْجَزَرِيِّ، عَنْ زِيَادِ بْنِ أَبِي مَرْيَمَ، عَنِ ابْنِ مَعْقِلٍ، قَالَ ‏:‏ دَخَلْتُ مَعَ أَبِي عَلَى عَبْدِ اللَّهِ فَسَمِعْتُهُ يَقُولُ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ ‏:‏ ‏”‏ النَّدَمُ تَوْبَةٌ ‏”‏ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ لَهُ أَبِي ‏:‏ أَنْتَ سَمِعْتَ النَّبِيَّ ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ يَقُولُ ‏:‏ ‏”‏ النَّدَمُ تَوْبَةٌ ‏”‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ ‏:‏ نَعَمْ ‏.‏
It was narrated that Ibn Ma’qil said: “I entered with my father upon ‘Abdullah, and I heard him say: ‘The messenger of Allah (saw) said: “Regret is repentance.” My father said: ‘Did you hear the Prophet (saw) say: “Regret is repentance?” He said: ‘Yes.’”[Sunan ibn Majah, Book 37, Hadith 4393 ; Grading; Hasan].

Therefore, since Ayesha(ra) regretted over her act, then this was her repentance. So this is not going against her at all . And Allah does not punish a person for a mistake which they did either unknowingly or due to coercion or in circumstances when they were absolutely grieve striken or not in control. Even the strongest of Sahaabi `Umar (r.a) himself shrank back in astonishment upon hearing the news of the death of Prophet (s.a.w) so much so that he threatened to chop off the head of anyone who utterd such a “blasphemy” , then what about the grief and shock of the gentle and loving `Aisha (r.a)?

The prophet (s.a.w) himself said that “If any one of you is touched by a calamity, let him remember the calamity that befell him concerning me (death) because it is of the greatest calamities.”  [Ref: Tabraani Mu`jam al- Kabeer 6718 and Saheeh by Albaanee in Silsilah Saheeha 1106., may Allah reward brother Syed Asif for informing me of this narration]

Shias even use the above tradition in an attempt to justify the action of self beating during times of great misery. However, the narration is actually evidence against those that see the permissibility of these actions, since A’isha(as) attributes these actions to her ignorance and youthfulness, also there are authentic reports that prohibit it. This is more obvious since we are not aware of any other accounts in which A’isha practices this, nor does she attempt to justify her actions.

On the other hand, those that self-flagellate today are not only young Shias, nor do they blame their ignorance. They practice this with the upmost pride, believing that these actions will allow them to reap their rewards.

Taken from
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2011/10/13/part-1-defence-of-ahlelbaytwives-of-prophetmothers-of-believers-from-the-religious-slanderers/
[/quote]

From that hadeeth, it doesn't look like `A'ishah regretted because of insolence and immaturity. Are you trying to imply that she no longer arrogant and immature afterwards? Any proofs, or just wishful thinking? What do you mean by Waadiqi is abandoned?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 03:12:37 PM by NaveenHussain »

NaveenHussain

Re: Naveen Al-Rafidhi
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2016, 03:13:22 PM »

Quote
Bro, you have no read the ridiculous reports regarding the shahadah of Abu Talib in your own books. Just read the reports in al-Kafi, see how ridiculous they are.

Which version of al-Kafi? I hope you know that it's said enemies of Islam are tampering with the online, or PDF, versions. Please bring forward the book and hadeeth number, if you're truthful.

Quote
And if you are so-confident then let me throw a small challenge to you. Tell us what did Ali(RA) inherit from Abu Talib after he died?  Please back your answer with a reliable Shia report, not a bunch of excuses.

[NOTE: We have authentic Sunni reports which state, Ali(RA) didn't inherit anything from Abu talib, because he wasn't a Muslim].
First of all, it's said in Islamic law, the Muslim may inherit from the Kafir, and not vice-versa, so you need to find reliable proofs. It's said to be sort of similar to how a Muslim man being able to marry an Ahlul-Kitabi woman, but not vice-versa. Such ahadeeth that show a Muslim can inherit from a Kafir, are said to be in the Shia book Man la Yahduruhu al-Faqih.



Quote
I'll let `A'ishah take care of that tab [nice try, though]:

Ahmad ibn Hanbal in his Musnad, vol. 6, p. 274, Number 26391 (edited by al-Arnaut) records that Aisha said:
ان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قبض وهو في حجري ثم وضعت رأسه على وسادة وقمت ألتدم مع النساء واضرب وجهي
Allah’s Apostle died in my lap. I then placed his head on a pillow AND STARTED DOING ILTIDAM with the other women AND I BEAT MY FACE.
Shaykh al-Arnaut says:
إسناده حسن من أجل ابن إسحاق
Its chain is hasan on account of Ibn Ishaq
Abu Ya’la has also recorded this same report in his Musnad, vol. 8, p. 63, Number 4586 (edited by Husayn Salim Asad). Husayn Salim Asad says about it:
إسناده حسن
Its chain is hasan.

Quote
Shaykh Shu`ayb al-Arnout said :
) إسناده حسن من أجل ابن إسحاق: وهو محمد، وقد صرح بالتحديث هنا، فانتفت شبهة تدليسه. وبقية رجاله ثقات رجال الشيخين غير يحيى بن عباد بن عبد الله بن الزبير أخرج له أصحاب السنن، وهو ثقة، يعقوب: هو ابن إبراهيم بن سعد بن إبراهيم بن عبد الرحمن بن عوف. وأخرجه أبو يعلى (4586) ، والبيهقي في “الدلائل” 7/213 من طريقين عن ابن إسحاق، بهذا الإسناد. وأخرجه مختصراً ابن سعد 2/261-262 و262 من طريق عيسى بن معمر، وأبي الأسود، كلاهما عن عباد بن عبد الله، عن عائشة، به. قلنا: لكن في طريقهما الواقدي، وهو متروك. وأخرجه ابن سعد 2/262 من طريق زيد بن أبي عتاب، عن عروهَ، عن عائشة، به. قلنا: وفي طريقه الواقدي كذلك، وهو متروك. وقد سلف نحوه برقم (24039) و (24216) . قلنا: وقولها: وقمت ألتدم مع النساء وأضرب وجهي. فيه نكارة ولم نجده إلا في هذه السياقة، والسيدة عائشة زوجة النبي صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ لا يخفى عليها حديث ابن مسعود مرفوعاً: ليس منا من ضرب الخدود، وشق الجيوب، ودعا بدعوى الجاهلية” وهو حديث صحيح سلف في مسند ابن مسعود برقم (3658) ، وقال السندي في تفسيره هناك: ليس منا، أي: ليس من أهل طريقتنا وسنتنا.
[Rough Translation]
Isnaad is hassan because of Ibn Ishaaq: he is Muhammad, the hadith is stated by him and is suspected of tadlees, however rest of the men are trustworthy (men of the shaikhain) except Yahya bin ‘Ibaad bin Abdullah bin Zubair who is from ashaab as sunan, and he is trustworthy; Yaqoob: he is Ibn Ibrahim bin Sa’ad bin Ibrahim bin ‘Abd ar-Rahman bin ‘Awf. and it is narrated by Ab Ya`la (4586), and Bayhiqi in “Ad-Dalail” 7/213 from two routes (one) from Ibn Ishaaq with this chain. And it is also narrated in Mukhtasar Ibn Sa’ad 2/261-262 from ‘Essa bin Ma’amar, and Abi Aswad, and all of them from ‘Ibaad bin ‘Abdullah from ‘Aisha. we say: but in their route there is Waqdi , who is matrooq. And it is narrated in by Ibn Sa’ad 2/262 from Zaid bin Abi ‘Itaab, from ‘Arwa, from ‘Aisha. we say: It has in its chain Waqdi also , who is (again) matrooq. We say and her saying:”stood up with women and started doing iltidam( an arabic word meaning hitting the face and chest ) and hitting my face” it is denied and it is not found except in this context, and Sayeeda ‘Aisha is the wife of Rasool Allah (s.a.w)and  the following marfoo’ narration of Ibn Masood is not hidden from her: ” He who slaps his cheeks, rips his pockets, or calls out the cries of the pre-Islamic period of ignorance is not of us.” and it s a sahih hadith quoted in musnad via Ibn Masood (3658), Al-Sindi said in its tafseer there: “not from us” means not from the our ways and sunan.

Note: We did not mention the narration that had al-Waaqdi that states :
فعجبت من حداثة سني أن رسول الله قبض في حجري فلم أتركه علی حاله حتی یغسل و لکن تناولت وسادة فوضعتها تحت رأسه ثم قمت مع النساء أصيح و ألتدم
because Waadiqi is Matrook(abandoned).

In the above narration `Aisha(r.a) herself testifies that it was due to her insolence and immaturity (  فمن سفهي وحداثة سني ) she did what she did. Which implies her regret over it.

حَدَّثَنَا هِشَامُ بْنُ عَمَّارٍ، حَدَّثَنَا سُفْيَانُ، عَنْ عَبْدِ الْكَرِيمِ الْجَزَرِيِّ، عَنْ زِيَادِ بْنِ أَبِي مَرْيَمَ، عَنِ ابْنِ مَعْقِلٍ، قَالَ ‏:‏ دَخَلْتُ مَعَ أَبِي عَلَى عَبْدِ اللَّهِ فَسَمِعْتُهُ يَقُولُ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ ‏:‏ ‏”‏ النَّدَمُ تَوْبَةٌ ‏”‏ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ لَهُ أَبِي ‏:‏ أَنْتَ سَمِعْتَ النَّبِيَّ ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ يَقُولُ ‏:‏ ‏”‏ النَّدَمُ تَوْبَةٌ ‏”‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ ‏:‏ نَعَمْ ‏.‏
It was narrated that Ibn Ma’qil said: “I entered with my father upon ‘Abdullah, and I heard him say: ‘The messenger of Allah (saw) said: “Regret is repentance.” My father said: ‘Did you hear the Prophet (saw) say: “Regret is repentance?” He said: ‘Yes.’”[Sunan ibn Majah, Book 37, Hadith 4393 ; Grading; Hasan].

Therefore, since Ayesha(ra) regretted over her act, then this was her repentance. So this is not going against her at all . And Allah does not punish a person for a mistake which they did either unknowingly or due to coercion or in circumstances when they were absolutely grieve striken or not in control. Even the strongest of Sahaabi `Umar (r.a) himself shrank back in astonishment upon hearing the news of the death of Prophet (s.a.w) so much so that he threatened to chop off the head of anyone who utterd such a “blasphemy” , then what about the grief and shock of the gentle and loving `Aisha (r.a)?

The prophet (s.a.w) himself said that “If any one of you is touched by a calamity, let him remember the calamity that befell him concerning me (death) because it is of the greatest calamities.”  [Ref: Tabraani Mu`jam al- Kabeer 6718 and Saheeh by Albaanee in Silsilah Saheeha 1106., may Allah reward brother Syed Asif for informing me of this narration]

Shias even use the above tradition in an attempt to justify the action of self beating during times of great misery. However, the narration is actually evidence against those that see the permissibility of these actions, since A’isha(as) attributes these actions to her ignorance and youthfulness, also there are authentic reports that prohibit it. This is more obvious since we are not aware of any other accounts in which A’isha practices this, nor does she attempt to justify her actions.

On the other hand, those that self-flagellate today are not only young Shias, nor do they blame their ignorance. They practice this with the upmost pride, believing that these actions will allow them to reap their rewards.

Taken from
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2011/10/13/part-1-defence-of-ahlelbaytwives-of-prophetmothers-of-believers-from-the-religious-slanderers/
[/quote]

From that hadeeth, it doesn't look like `A'ishah regretted because of insolence and immaturity. Are you trying to imply that she no longer arrogant and immature afterwards? Any proofs, or just wishful thinking? What do you mean by Waadiqi is abandoned?
[/quote]

NaveenHussain

Re: Naveen Al-Rafidhi
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2016, 03:14:51 PM »
Quote
Bro, you have no read the ridiculous reports regarding the shahadah of Abu Talib in your own books. Just read the reports in al-Kafi, see how ridiculous they are.

Which version of al-Kafi? I hope you know that it's said enemies of Islam are tampering with the online, or PDF, versions. Please bring forward the book and hadeeth number, if you're truthful.

Quote
And if you are so-confident then let me throw a small challenge to you. Tell us what did Ali(RA) inherit from Abu Talib after he died?  Please back your answer with a reliable Shia report, not a bunch of excuses.

[NOTE: We have authentic Sunni reports which state, Ali(RA) didn't inherit anything from Abu talib, because he wasn't a Muslim].
First of all, it's said in Islamic law, the Muslim may inherit from the Kafir, and not vice-versa, so you need to find reliable proofs. It's said to be sort of similar to how a Muslim man being able to marry an Ahlul-Kitabi woman, but not vice-versa. Such ahadeeth that show a Muslim can inherit from a Kafir, are said to be in the Shia book Man la Yahduruhu al-Faqih.

Quote
Shaykh Shu`ayb al-Arnout said :
) إسناده حسن من أجل ابن إسحاق: وهو محمد، وقد صرح بالتحديث هنا، فانتفت شبهة تدليسه. وبقية رجاله ثقات رجال الشيخين غير يحيى بن عباد بن عبد الله بن الزبير أخرج له أصحاب السنن، وهو ثقة، يعقوب: هو ابن إبراهيم بن سعد بن إبراهيم بن عبد الرحمن بن عوف. وأخرجه أبو يعلى (4586) ، والبيهقي في “الدلائل” 7/213 من طريقين عن ابن إسحاق، بهذا الإسناد. وأخرجه مختصراً ابن سعد 2/261-262 و262 من طريق عيسى بن معمر، وأبي الأسود، كلاهما عن عباد بن عبد الله، عن عائشة، به. قلنا: لكن في طريقهما الواقدي، وهو متروك. وأخرجه ابن سعد 2/262 من طريق زيد بن أبي عتاب، عن عروهَ، عن عائشة، به. قلنا: وفي طريقه الواقدي كذلك، وهو متروك. وقد سلف نحوه برقم (24039) و (24216) . قلنا: وقولها: وقمت ألتدم مع النساء وأضرب وجهي. فيه نكارة ولم نجده إلا في هذه السياقة، والسيدة عائشة زوجة النبي صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ لا يخفى عليها حديث ابن مسعود مرفوعاً: ليس منا من ضرب الخدود، وشق الجيوب، ودعا بدعوى الجاهلية” وهو حديث صحيح سلف في مسند ابن مسعود برقم (3658) ، وقال السندي في تفسيره هناك: ليس منا، أي: ليس من أهل طريقتنا وسنتنا.
[Rough Translation]
Isnaad is hassan because of Ibn Ishaaq: he is Muhammad, the hadith is stated by him and is suspected of tadlees, however rest of the men are trustworthy (men of the shaikhain) except Yahya bin ‘Ibaad bin Abdullah bin Zubair who is from ashaab as sunan, and he is trustworthy; Yaqoob: he is Ibn Ibrahim bin Sa’ad bin Ibrahim bin ‘Abd ar-Rahman bin ‘Awf. and it is narrated by Ab Ya`la (4586), and Bayhiqi in “Ad-Dalail” 7/213 from two routes (one) from Ibn Ishaaq with this chain. And it is also narrated in Mukhtasar Ibn Sa’ad 2/261-262 from ‘Essa bin Ma’amar, and Abi Aswad, and all of them from ‘Ibaad bin ‘Abdullah from ‘Aisha. we say: but in their route there is Waqdi , who is matrooq. And it is narrated in by Ibn Sa’ad 2/262 from Zaid bin Abi ‘Itaab, from ‘Arwa, from ‘Aisha. we say: It has in its chain Waqdi also , who is (again) matrooq. We say and her saying:”stood up with women and started doing iltidam( an arabic word meaning hitting the face and chest ) and hitting my face” it is denied and it is not found except in this context, and Sayeeda ‘Aisha is the wife of Rasool Allah (s.a.w)and  the following marfoo’ narration of Ibn Masood is not hidden from her: ” He who slaps his cheeks, rips his pockets, or calls out the cries of the pre-Islamic period of ignorance is not of us.” and it s a sahih hadith quoted in musnad via Ibn Masood (3658), Al-Sindi said in its tafseer there: “not from us” means not from the our ways and sunan.

Note: We did not mention the narration that had al-Waaqdi that states :
فعجبت من حداثة سني أن رسول الله قبض في حجري فلم أتركه علی حاله حتی یغسل و لکن تناولت وسادة فوضعتها تحت رأسه ثم قمت مع النساء أصيح و ألتدم
because Waadiqi is Matrook(abandoned).

In the above narration `Aisha(r.a) herself testifies that it was due to her insolence and immaturity (  فمن سفهي وحداثة سني ) she did what she did. Which implies her regret over it.

حَدَّثَنَا هِشَامُ بْنُ عَمَّارٍ، حَدَّثَنَا سُفْيَانُ، عَنْ عَبْدِ الْكَرِيمِ الْجَزَرِيِّ، عَنْ زِيَادِ بْنِ أَبِي مَرْيَمَ، عَنِ ابْنِ مَعْقِلٍ، قَالَ ‏:‏ دَخَلْتُ مَعَ أَبِي عَلَى عَبْدِ اللَّهِ فَسَمِعْتُهُ يَقُولُ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ ‏:‏ ‏”‏ النَّدَمُ تَوْبَةٌ ‏”‏ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ لَهُ أَبِي ‏:‏ أَنْتَ سَمِعْتَ النَّبِيَّ ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ يَقُولُ ‏:‏ ‏”‏ النَّدَمُ تَوْبَةٌ ‏”‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ ‏:‏ نَعَمْ ‏.‏
It was narrated that Ibn Ma’qil said: “I entered with my father upon ‘Abdullah, and I heard him say: ‘The messenger of Allah (saw) said: “Regret is repentance.” My father said: ‘Did you hear the Prophet (saw) say: “Regret is repentance?” He said: ‘Yes.’”[Sunan ibn Majah, Book 37, Hadith 4393 ; Grading; Hasan].

Therefore, since Ayesha(ra) regretted over her act, then this was her repentance. So this is not going against her at all . And Allah does not punish a person for a mistake which they did either unknowingly or due to coercion or in circumstances when they were absolutely grieve striken or not in control. Even the strongest of Sahaabi `Umar (r.a) himself shrank back in astonishment upon hearing the news of the death of Prophet (s.a.w) so much so that he threatened to chop off the head of anyone who utterd such a “blasphemy” , then what about the grief and shock of the gentle and loving `Aisha (r.a)?

The prophet (s.a.w) himself said that “If any one of you is touched by a calamity, let him remember the calamity that befell him concerning me (death) because it is of the greatest calamities.”  [Ref: Tabraani Mu`jam al- Kabeer 6718 and Saheeh by Albaanee in Silsilah Saheeha 1106., may Allah reward brother Syed Asif for informing me of this narration]

Shias even use the above tradition in an attempt to justify the action of self beating during times of great misery. However, the narration is actually evidence against those that see the permissibility of these actions, since A’isha(as) attributes these actions to her ignorance and youthfulness, also there are authentic reports that prohibit it. This is more obvious since we are not aware of any other accounts in which A’isha practices this, nor does she attempt to justify her actions.

On the other hand, those that self-flagellate today are not only young Shias, nor do they blame their ignorance. They practice this with the upmost pride, believing that these actions will allow them to reap their rewards.

Taken from
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2011/10/13/part-1-defence-of-ahlelbaytwives-of-prophetmothers-of-believers-from-the-religious-slanderers/

From that hadeeth, it doesn't look like `A'ishah regretted because of insolence and immaturity. Are you trying to imply that she was no longer arrogant and immature afterwards? Any proofs, or just wishful thinking? What do you mean by Waadiqi is abandoned? As for Tatbeer, it can be viewed similar to Hijaamah, as it's said to draw-out dirty blood, etc.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 03:29:24 PM by NaveenHussain »

muslim720

Re: Naveen Al-Rafidhi
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2016, 03:27:42 PM »

Seerat Ibn Ishaq, 2/713
“I heard Ayesha saying “The Messenger of God died on my bosom during my turn, I did not wrong anyone in regard to him. It was because of my ignorance and youthfulness that the Messenger of God died while he was in my lap. Then I laid his head on a pillow and got up beating my chest and slapping my face along with the women”

Wallaahi, these people are so preoccupied with inserting their own misconceptions and evil concoctions into narrations that they fail to read what is right in front of their eyes.  Another example of not giving the whole story...more like not knowing the whole story lol!
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 03:35:37 PM by muslim720 »

NaveenHussain

Re: Naveen Al-Rafidhi
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2016, 04:26:25 PM »

Seerat Ibn Ishaq, 2/713
“I heard Ayesha saying “The Messenger of God died on my bosom during my turn, I did not wrong anyone in regard to him. It was because of my ignorance and youthfulness that the Messenger of God died while he was in my lap. Then I laid his head on a pillow and got up beating my chest and slapping my face along with the women”

Wallaahi, these people are so preoccupied with inserting their own misconceptions and evil concoctions into narrations that they fail to read what is right in front of their eyes.  Another example of not giving the whole story...more like not knowing the whole story lol!

You deceiver [Muslim702]. I don't know if your deception is deliberate or inadvertent. It must've been written in Arabic, and I wonder why the English wasn't included. Did you think I wasn't going to catch it? Alhamdulillah. I searched for what Noor-us-Sunnah replied in reply #5, and I didn't see it. I'm not that great with Arabic yet. With that being said, we're discussing in English, so please try to give the pertinent arguments in proper English. According to the English translation of that Sunni hadeeth, it's two separate sentences. Perhaps it was a bad translation, but it looks like her ignorance and youthfulness -- and not insolence, as the brother previously tried to state -- is what led to her saying Prophet (saww) died in her lap. See what I did there? I searched, meticulously, for the term insolence, in your replies, and I caught you. Alhamdulillahe Rabbil `Alameen. Furthermore, it's said that hadeeth is even a fabrication, since Rasool (saww) is said to have died in Imam Ali's (as) lap/chest, etc.

Also, Muslim720 [Masood], I thought you were going to debate me one-on-one? Due to time constraints, it's challenging trying to answer others as well. I'll try my best, though.


« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 04:38:57 PM by NaveenHussain »

NaveenHussain

Re: Naveen Al-Rafidhi
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2016, 04:27:39 PM »
Welcome to the boards Naveen.

Be nice, guys.
I appreciate it, bro.

NaveenHussain

Re: Naveen Al-Rafidhi
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2016, 04:34:20 PM »
Would you like me to delete the posts of the other members akhi?
I'm not one who advocates for deletion of posts, but I just want to make it clear that it's more challenging to go back and forth with many people via online discussion/debates; if the discussions were in person, it'd probably be way easier. I'm even having trouble with using the quote feature. lol

muslim720

Re: Naveen Al-Rafidhi
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2016, 04:37:38 PM »

Seerat Ibn Ishaq, 2/713
“I heard Ayesha saying “The Messenger of God died on my bosom during my turn, I did not wrong anyone in regard to him. It was because of my ignorance and youthfulness that the Messenger of God died while he was in my lap. Then I laid his head on a pillow and got up beating my chest and slapping my face along with the women”

Wallaahi, these people are so preoccupied with inserting their own misconceptions and evil concoctions into narrations that they fail to read what is right in front of their eyes.  Another example of not giving the whole story...more like not knowing the whole story lol!

You deceiver. I don't know if your deception if deliberate or inadvertent. It must've been written in Arabic, and I wonder why the English wasn't included. Did you think I wasn't going to catch you? Alhamdulillah. I searched for what Noor-us-Sunnah replied in reply #5, and I didn't see it. I'm not that great with Arabic yet. With that being said, we're discussing in English, so please try to give the pertinent arguments in proper English. According to the English translation of that Sunni hadeeth, it's two separate sentences. Perhaps it was a bad translation, but it looks like her ignorance and youthfulness -- and not insolence, as the brother previously tried to state -- is what led to her saying Prophet (saww) died in her lap. See what I did there? I searched, meticulously, for the term insolence, in your replies, and I caught you. Alhamdulillahe Rabbil `Alameen. Furthermore, it's said that hadeeth is even a fabrication, since Rasool (saww) is said to have died in Imam Ali's (as) lap/chest, etc.

Also, Muslim720 [Masood], I thought you were going to debate me one-on-one? Due to time constraints, it's challenging trying to answer others as well. I'll try my best, though.




I can debate you one-on-one just as good.  I am the one who has taken time to visit mosques like Imam Ali Center, et cetera, and discussed with brothers there.  In fact, I was an active member at ShiaChat.  Seeing how I was refuting Shias easily and logically, before even reaching out to texts, the admins of this site - back then it had a different name - invited me to this site.  So I did not invite you here to gang up on you except that I promised myself never to return to ShiaChat.  The Rawaafidh there, and like yourself, are nothing like the pious Shias I know, some of whom are my teachers and I look up to them.

muslim720

Re: Naveen Al-Rafidhi
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2016, 04:43:09 PM »
Muslim720 sendin for naveen, hold tight twelvershia.net mandem big up anti-majos

Anti-Majos? Oh, you mean like this:



It is a known fact that present-day Iran is a land that produced great scholars of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah.  We know who made it a Shia stronghold and how.  We also know who brought Islam to that part of the world by defeating Persia.  Hint: it was the second Caliph (ra), not Imam Ali (ra).  All that favor he bestowed upon you Rawaafidh and not even a thank you!

NaveenHussain

Re: Naveen Al-Rafidhi
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2016, 05:07:29 PM »
Muslim720 sendin for naveen, hold tight twelvershia.net mandem big up anti-majos

Anti-Majos? Oh, you mean like this:



It is a known fact that present-day Iran is a land that produced great scholars of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah.  We know who made it a Shia stronghold and how.  We also know who brought Islam to that part of the world by defeating Persia.  Hint: it was the second Caliph (ra), not Imam Ali (ra).  All that favor he bestowed upon you Rawaafidh and not even a thank you!
Okay, so you do admit to the Majoosi roots of Bakrism. The truth [Shiism] was willed to spread. It seems you've forgot the part in Quran where it's mentions the disbelievers wanting to extinguish the light of Allah (swt).

NaveenHussain

Re: Naveen Al-Rafidhi
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2016, 05:10:51 PM »

Seerat Ibn Ishaq, 2/713
“I heard Ayesha saying “The Messenger of God died on my bosom during my turn, I did not wrong anyone in regard to him. It was because of my ignorance and youthfulness that the Messenger of God died while he was in my lap. Then I laid his head on a pillow and got up beating my chest and slapping my face along with the women”

Wallaahi, these people are so preoccupied with inserting their own misconceptions and evil concoctions into narrations that they fail to read what is right in front of their eyes.  Another example of not giving the whole story...more like not knowing the whole story lol!

You deceiver. I don't know if your deception if deliberate or inadvertent. It must've been written in Arabic, and I wonder why the English wasn't included. Did you think I wasn't going to catch you? Alhamdulillah. I searched for what Noor-us-Sunnah replied in reply #5, and I didn't see it. I'm not that great with Arabic yet. With that being said, we're discussing in English, so please try to give the pertinent arguments in proper English. According to the English translation of that Sunni hadeeth, it's two separate sentences. Perhaps it was a bad translation, but it looks like her ignorance and youthfulness -- and not insolence, as the brother previously tried to state -- is what led to her saying Prophet (saww) died in her lap. See what I did there? I searched, meticulously, for the term insolence, in your replies, and I caught you. Alhamdulillahe Rabbil `Alameen. Furthermore, it's said that hadeeth is even a fabrication, since Rasool (saww) is said to have died in Imam Ali's (as) lap/chest, etc.

Also, Muslim720 [Masood], I thought you were going to debate me one-on-one? Due to time constraints, it's challenging trying to answer others as well. I'll try my best, though.




I can debate you one-on-one just as good.  I am the one who has taken time to visit mosques like Imam Ali Center, et cetera, and discussed with brothers there.  In fact, I was an active member at ShiaChat.  Seeing how I was refuting Shias easily and logically, before even reaching out to texts, the admins of this site - back then it had a different name - invited me to this site.  So I did not invite you here to gang up on you except that I promised myself never to return to ShiaChat.  The Rawaafidh there, and like yourself, are nothing like the pious Shias I know, some of whom are my teachers and I look up to them.
I have visited Sunni Masaajid alone, and discussed/debated with your scholars. What was your name on Shiachat? I was active there for a while, under the name Gogiison2, and then I changed it to my real name, NaveenHussain. I don't recall any good arguments by any Sunnis on Shiachat.com. I'll debate you there, too, if you feel you have good arguments, and in shaa'llah you'll realize the faults in your belief system. What do you know about piety? You follow enemies of Ahlul Bayt (as).

muslim720

Re: Naveen Al-Rafidhi (Muslim720 and NaveenHussain only)
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2016, 05:24:55 PM »
Like I showed up with an entourage!  I was alone too and this one time, when the whole lot ran out of excuses, the imam there outright rejected the fact that it was Abu Bakr (ra) who was in the cave with the Prophet (saw).  I laughed at his pathetic and helpless "rebuttal".  I had to excuse myself for Maghrib prayers which I prayed behind him but even his sidekicks were disappointed by his shameless rejection of established Islamic history.

But I will not feed your troll.  Prove Abu Talib's faith or find me the Qur'anic verses regarding Fadak.

Regarding following enemies of Ahlul Bayt (ra), it seems like you Rawaafidh know more, and better, than the Prophet (saw).  He (saw) befriended them, established marriage ties with them and entrusted them with his life.  But the Prophet (saw) somehow didn't know of the animosity they harbored in their chests.  You know but he (saw) did not...naudhibillah!
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 05:33:01 PM by muslim720 »

NaveenHussain

Re: Naveen Al-Rafidhi (Muslim720 and NaveenHussain only)
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2016, 05:35:47 PM »
Like I showed up with an entourage!  I was alone too and this one time, when the whole lot ran out of excuses, the imam there outright rejected the fact that it was Abu Bakr (ra) who was in the cave with the Prophet (saw).  I laughed at his pathetic and helpless "rebuttal".  I had to excuse myself for Maghrib prayers which I prayed behind him but even his sidekicks were disappointed by his shameless rejection of established Islamic history.

But I will not feed your troll.  Prove Abu Talib's faith or find me the Qur'anic verses regarding Fadak.
The Shia Shaykh rejected the fact of Abu Bakr being in the Cave with Rasool (saww)? I wonder what his explanation was. You're lucky I wasn't there. You probably would've left as Shia, or highly doubting your Bakri faith.

I remember when I went to IHC Masjid in Fairfax, and the Egyptian Shaykh was discussing with me, and there were about 5 others from the Masjid that circled me, and the Bakri Shaykh didn't even know his own books of "Saheeh" ahadeeth. It's sad. I will admit, though, that scholars on both sides -- Sunni and Shia -- can be very ignorant, to which I think you'd agree.

muslim720

Re: Naveen Al-Rafidhi (Muslim720 and NaveenHussain only)
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2016, 05:40:51 PM »
Well here is your chance to convert me.  Less bark, more bite.  Fadak verses from the Qur'an please.

NaveenHussain

Re: Naveen Al-Rafidhi (Muslim720 and NaveenHussain only)
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2016, 05:46:03 PM »
Regarding following enemies of Ahlul Bayt (ra), it seems like you Rawaafidh know more, and better, than the Prophet (saw).  He (saw) befriended them, established marriage ties with them and entrusted them with his life.  But the Prophet (saw) somehow didn't know of the animosity they harbored in their chests.  You know but he (saw) did not...naudhibillah!
The Prophet (saww) treated EVERYONE justly, be they Kuffaar, or otherwise. You should know that. It puzzles me that you don't, evidently. The Prophet (saww) did marry man a woman, for many different reasons, as it's said. One such reason was said to bring together tribes. I think your logic will fail you when you reply with such comments. Just because I may marry a white woman, for example, doesn't mean I like the evil people among whites; sure, if they're good white people, I have no issues liking them. You should try to better acquaint yourself with the Holy Quraan:

Quraan 9:101
[Shakir]:

And from among those who are round about you of the dwellers of the desert there are hypocrites, and from among the people of Medina (also); they are stubborn in hypocrisy; you do not know them; We know them; We will chastise them twice then shall they be turned back to a grievous chastisement
-----

NaveenHussain

Re: Naveen Al-Rafidhi (Muslim720 and NaveenHussain only)
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2016, 05:47:07 PM »
Well here is your chance to convert me.  Less bark, more bite.  Fadak verses from the Qur'an please.
One such verse, as I have shared with you elsewhere, is Quraan 17:26.

 

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