12er Shia Imam Travels Back In Time to Help Prophet Sulaiman

[Rationalist]

قَالَ الَّذِي عِنْدَهُ عِلْمٌ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ أَنَا آتِيكَ بِهِ قَبْلَ أَنْ يَرْتَدَّ إِلَيْكَ طَرْفُكَ ۚ فَلَمَّا رَآهُ مُسْتَقِرًّا عِنْدَهُ قَالَ هَٰذَا مِنْ فَضْلِ رَبِّي لِيَبْلُوَنِي أَأَشْكُرُ أَمْ أَكْفُرُ ۖ وَمَنْ شَكَرَ فَإِنَّمَا يَشْكُرُ لِنَفْسِهِ ۖ وَمَنْ كَفَرَ فَإِنَّ رَبِّي غَنِيٌّ كَرِيمٌ {40}
[Pickthal 27:40] One with whom was knowledge of the Scripture said: I will bring it thee before thy gaze returneth unto thee. And when he saw it set in his presence, (Solomon) said: This is of the bounty of my Lord, that He may try me whether I give thanks or am ungrateful. Whosoever giveth thanks he only giveth thanks for (the good of) his own soul; and whosoever is ungrateful (is ungrateful only to his own soul's hurt). For lo! my Lord is Absolute in independence, Bountiful.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary]
 A large, powerful jinn offered his services and assured Sulayman that he would do it before he would rise from his council. However strong and big a creature might be, it was not possible for him to go to a distant land and bring her and her throne in a few moments, unless the jinn had supernatural powers to do it. Although the jinn had boasted of his strength and supernatural power, yet when a man who had knowledge of the book said that he would bring them to him within the twinkling of an eye, Sulayman gave him permission. Soon the Queen, with her throne, was before him. See commentary of Rad: 43 to know about him who had the knowledge of the book. It is reported by Abu Ishaq Thalabi that Abdullah bin Salam asked the Holy Prophet to give the name of the man who had knowledge of the book and brought the queen of Sheba with her throne within the twinkling of an eye. The Holy Prophet said: "It was Ali."

It is stated in Minhaj al Sadiqin and Umdat al Bayan that then the Holy Prophet said to Ali:

"O Ali, you helped all the prophets of Allah incognito (concealed from view), and you help me in propria persona (in person) manifestly."

Ali ibn abi Talib is known as mazhar al aja-ib and mazhar al ghara-ib because, as willed by Allah, he used to appear in different forms to carry out divine plans under very special circumstances. These two epithets are exclusively reserved for Ali. Even today the true believers invoke Allah to send him for help. The famous dua, known as Nadi Ali, which the Holy Prophet recited, as commanded by Allah, at Khaybar refers to Ali as mazhar al aja-ib. Ali ibn abi Talib is also known as mushkil kusha, the remover of hardships. In every age, to many persons he comes personally to remove hardships. Through his name great spiritual achievements are attained. The Holy Prophet, and after him, Ali are acknowledged as the most superior possessors of the spiritual powers.

[Hani]

"O Ali, you helped all the prophets of Allah incognito (concealed from view), and you help me in propria persona (in person) manifestly."

What the heck is that Man!?

[Rationalist]

The 12er Shia school of theology divides Muslims in two groups. They are
a) Exoteric (Ammi)
b) Esoteric (Khassa)

The exoteric are the Ammi who the 12ers refer to as the Sunnis. Since we are Sunni we are referred to common people, and due to this only common knowledge will be shared in public.

The  esoteric are the khassa who are special people within the 12er Shia. Within this group another type of knowledge is shared which is intended for only a small group of people.

So supposedly even the knowledge of Imam Ali (as) helping the previous Prophets was hidden from the Prophets themselves, yet the esoteric group of people knew that all along that it was Ali who was travelling back in time to help the previous Prophets.

This is why the 12ers have ahadith like this in their books.

Mohammed bin al-Hasan bin Ahmed bin al-Waleed related to me from
Mohammed bin al-Hasan as-Saffar… from Mohammed bin Qays and Aamir bin as-Simt that
Abu Ja'far (as) related that the Prophet (pbuh) said:
On the Day of Resurrection, some people dressing clothes of light with luminous faces whom
will be identified by the signs of prostration will come.
They will overstep the rows until they stand in front of the Lord of the worlds.
The prophets, angels, shahids, and righteous people will envy them. Omar bin al-Khattab asked:
O Allah's Messenger (pbuh), who are they whom the prophets, angels, shahids, and righteous men will envy?
The Prophet answered: They will be our Shia, and Ali (as) will be their imam.
____________
Refer to Mishkat ul-Anwar; 97, al-Burhan; 4:293 H.13, Bihar ul-Anwar; 7:179 H.18.

[Ameen]

I don't know what your point is here. May be you can tell me. I will ask you this in the mean time, the man who claimed that he well bring the throne of Queen Bilqees right before Soloman (as) quicker than the blink of an eye, do you believe in this story??? Lets take it from here. Do you believe in this event???

[Optimus Prime]

I don't know what your point is here. May be you can tell me. I will ask you this in the mean time, the man who claimed that he well bring the throne of Queen Bilqees right before Soloman (as) quicker than the blink of an eye, do you believe in this story??? Lets take it from here. Do you believe in this event???

I think the point Rationalist is trying to convey is clearly noticeable.

Let me ask you. Do you believe Ali (RA) did help all these Prophets as described in the opening post?

[Rationalist]

I don't know what your point is here. May be you can tell me. I will ask you this in the mean time, the man who claimed that he well bring the throne of Queen Bilqees right before Soloman (as) quicker than the blink of an eye, do you believe in this story??? Lets take it from here. Do you believe in this event???

I have no issue with the verse. But to claim that the man was Imam Ali (as) is really a strange opinion.

[Optimus Prime]

I don't know what your point is here. May be you can tell me. I will ask you this in the mean time, the man who claimed that he well bring the throne of Queen Bilqees right before Soloman (as) quicker than the blink of an eye, do you believe in this story??? Lets take it from here. Do you believe in this event???

I have no issue with the verse. But to claim that the man was Imam Ali (as) is really a strange opinion.

Strange? LOL.

Once Farid posted a quote from a Rafidhi from SC site who said Ali (RA) saved Isa (AS) from the cross. Isa (AS) literally called out by saying "Ya Ali".

[Ameen]

I don't know what your point is here. May be you can tell me. I will ask you this in the mean time, the man who claimed that he well bring the throne of Queen Bilqees right before Soloman (as) quicker than the blink of an eye, do you believe in this story??? Lets take it from here. Do you believe in this event???

I think the point Rationalist is trying to convey is clearly noticeable.

Let me ask you. Do you believe Ali (RA) did help all these Prophets as described in the opening post?

Brother I asked you a question and you didn't reply. Why??? Do you believe in the incident/story of Soloman (as) and the bringing of queen Bilqees's throne???

[Ameen]

I don't know what your point is here. May be you can tell me. I will ask you this in the mean time, the man who claimed that he well bring the throne of Queen Bilqees right before Soloman (as) quicker than the blink of an eye, do you believe in this story??? Lets take it from here. Do you believe in this event???

I have no issue with the verse. But to claim that the man was Imam Ali (as) is really a strange opinion.

Ok brother, then you do believe he was a man, a human being. Was he a Prophet/Messenger??? If not then I would like to bring this to your attention, lets keep Hazrath Ali (as) out of this for a minute, the Genee claimed he will bring the throne in such a way but the man said he would bring it even quicker and faster.

Notice this brother that apart from Messengers/prophets humans as well as genees are blessed with such authority and power. They are blessed with such capability but only the ones who Allah desires and wishes. Allah says that this man, who ever he may be but the fact remains that he was a human, we gave him just some knowledge from the book. Just a little bit of knowledge. Brothers people with such super sonic ability and powers did exist.

[Ameen]

I don't know what your point is here. May be you can tell me. I will ask you this in the mean time, the man who claimed that he well bring the throne of Queen Bilqees right before Soloman (as) quicker than the blink of an eye, do you believe in this story??? Lets take it from here. Do you believe in this event???

I have no issue with the verse. But to claim that the man was Imam Ali (as) is really a strange opinion.

Strange? LOL.

Once Farid posted a quote from a Rafidhi from SC site who said Ali (RA) saved Isa (AS) from the cross. Isa (AS) literally called out by saying "Ya Ali".

Why is this STRANGE??? Whether this is true or not can be discussed but why strange??? If a Genee can turn around and say to Soloman (as) that I can bring such a huge, massive, heavy throne to you with such miraculous speed and a man steps forward from no where, an ordinary man and claims that he can do it better, much quicker then isn't this strange??? If something is mentioned in the Quran then that is fine otherwise it's impossible???

Allah mentions in the Quran that tell the Christians that they are mistaken, Jesus (as) wasn't crucified but in fact was protected from crucifixion by Allah and was up lifted to safety and is alive and well. Yes, crucifixion did take place, somebody was crucified but it wasn't Jesus (as), in fact it was a clone of Jesus (as), a Shabih, someone with an exactly similar face.

Wow! This is in the Quran, so we believe it but when this verse, this news wasn't revealed what then??? From the day of crucifixion up until this verse was revealed, in between if someone denied the crucifixion and believed in Jesus (as) being in occultation the what??? How would have these people been viewed??? How would they have been looked at and treated Just like the Shias who believe in the occultation of Al Mahdi (as), I guess!

[Hani]

Except Shia disagreed on whether the 12th Imam was born in the first place. Also `Isa (as) is not in Ghaybah, he is in the sky. Also `Isa (as) lived and delivered his message and fulfilled his obligation then was raised by Allah as stated in the Qur'an, whereas the 12th Imam hopped out of his unknown mother's womb and went to hiding straight away etc...

[Rationalist]

Ok brother, then you do believe he was a man, a human being. Was he a Prophet/Messenger???

It doesn't specify he was a Prophet/Messenger. We don't know. He was a human though. Then again Prophet Adam (as) was a Prophet, but it doesn't specify in the Quran he was a Prophet either.

If not then I would like to bring this to your attention, lets keep Hazrath Ali (as) out of this for a minute, the Genee claimed he will bring the throne in such a way but the man said he would bring it even quicker and faster.

Why keep Imam Ali (as) out of this? Our books acknowledge his miracles such as him lifting the gate of Khyber. However, the issue is him going back in time, and this is where the conflict begins. 

Notice this brother that apart from Messengers/prophets humans as well as genees are blessed with such authority and power. They are blessed with such capability but only the ones who Allah desires and wishes. Allah says that this man, who ever he may be but the fact remains that he was a human, we gave him just some knowledge from the book. Just a little bit of knowledge. Brothers people with such super sonic ability and powers did exist.

But here time travel is the issue.

[Rationalist]

Also, it doesn't end there. Another 'exegesis' which the 12ers attribute to the Imam is that he is the Beast.

Tafsir Qummi:
Ubayy has narrated from Ibne Abu Umair from Abu Basir from Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) that he said:
"Once the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) came to Amirul Momineen (a.s.)while the latter was asleep in the mosque; he had made a heap of sand andrested his head on it. The Holy Prophet (s.a.w.s.) shook his leg and said: "O  Daabbatullaah!  Get up!" A companion who witnessed this asked, "OMessenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.)! Shall we address each other with this name?"He replied, "No, by Allah it is restricted only for him (Ali) and he is the
Daabba
that Allah has mentioned in His book…"
　
And when the word shall come to pass against them, We shall bring forth for them a creature from the earth that shall talk to them, because people did not believe in Our communications." (Surah Naml 27:82)
Then the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) said: O Ali, in the last period of time the Almighty Allah will bring you out in the best form and you will behaving a seal with which you will mark your enemies.A person asked Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.): "But the Sunni say that in this verse the word of ‘talk to them, implies injuring?"Imam (a.s.) replied: May Allah send them to Hell, it is not like that, it means talking and this statement of the Almighty Allah is an evidence for Rajat.


However, this reference clarifies that this time its not time travel, but its the Imam coming back to life and supposedly transforming into a beast.

[Optimus Prime]

I don't know what your point is here. May be you can tell me. I will ask you this in the mean time, the man who claimed that he well bring the throne of Queen Bilqees right before Soloman (as) quicker than the blink of an eye, do you believe in this story??? Lets take it from here. Do you believe in this event???

I have no issue with the verse. But to claim that the man was Imam Ali (as) is really a strange opinion.

Strange? LOL.

Once Farid posted a quote from a Rafidhi from SC site who said Ali (RA) saved Isa (AS) from the cross. Isa (AS) literally called out by saying "Ya Ali".

Why is this STRANGE??? Whether this is true or not can be discussed but why strange??? If a Genee can turn around and say to Soloman (as) that I can bring such a huge, massive, heavy throne to you with such miraculous speed and a man steps forward from no where, an ordinary man and claims that he can do it better, much quicker then isn't this strange??? If something is mentioned in the Quran then that is fine otherwise it's impossible???

Allah mentions in the Quran that tell the Christians that they are mistaken, Jesus (as) wasn't crucified but in fact was protected from crucifixion by Allah and was up lifted to safety and is alive and well. Yes, crucifixion did take place, somebody was crucified but it wasn't Jesus (as), in fact it was a clone of Jesus (as), a Shabih, someone with an exactly similar face.

Wow! This is in the Quran, so we believe it but when this verse, this news wasn't revealed what then??? From the day of crucifixion up until this verse was revealed, in between if someone denied the crucifixion and believed in Jesus (as) being in occultation the what??? How would have these people been viewed??? How would they have been looked at and treated Just like the Shias who believe in the occultation of Al Mahdi (as), I guess!

It's strange because Ali (RA) wasn't born at the time, and the Prophets called upon Allah (SWT) for help not a human being who wasn't even conceived and could not save himself from sudden death.

It wasn't Ali (RA) who helped Sulaiman (AS) and saved Isa (AS) - get over it.

[Rationalist]

When Ameen doesn't have answers he tries to change the topic by replying with questions and makes the opponent answer the question. This is a common tactic among the 12ers.

For example in this topic I want to discuss Imam Ali (as) going back in time. However, Ameen tried to change the topic by questioning are miracles possible by non-Prophets?

In the topic what's the point of imamate, Ameen changes it into what's the difference between Messengers and Prophets.

[Ameen]

When Ameen doesn't have answers he tries to change the topic by replying with questions and makes the opponent answer the question. This is a common tactic among the 12ers.

For example in this topic I want to discuss Imam Ali (as) going back in time. However, Ameen tried to change the topic by questioning are miracles possible by non-Prophets?

In the topic what's the point of imamate, Ameen changes it into what's the difference between Messengers and Prophets.

The definition you've given more suits others. I have answered your question on what is the point of Imamath. I don't know what more you are looking for. Once again, Imamath is guidance regarding Quran and Sunnah and an Imams duty and job is to protect, defend and safeguard Islam.

As far as Hazrath Ali (as) going back in time is concerned, who said and where did it say that this is a core belief of the Shia. Who was the man who claimed that he will bring the throne of queen Bilqees quicker and faster than the blink of an eye??? If Hazrath Ali (as) ripped apart and took down the gates Khaibar and you believe in this and miracles by non Messengers/Prophets but still don't understand the status and personality of Hazrath Ali (as) and continue to hold others superior and above Ali (as) then, it's up to you. Many questions can be raised here but you ask to catch out and put forward to put down. Since when have any of you been interested in a serious discussion???

[Ameen]

I don't know what your point is here. May be you can tell me. I will ask you this in the mean time, the man who claimed that he well bring the throne of Queen Bilqees right before Soloman (as) quicker than the blink of an eye, do you believe in this story??? Lets take it from here. Do you believe in this event???

I have no issue with the verse. But to claim that the man was Imam Ali (as) is really a strange opinion.

Strange? LOL.

Once Farid posted a quote from a Rafidhi from SC site who said Ali (RA) saved Isa (AS) from the cross. Isa (AS) literally called out by saying "Ya Ali".

Why is this STRANGE??? Whether this is true or not can be discussed but why strange??? If a Genee can turn around and say to Soloman (as) that I can bring such a huge, massive, heavy throne to you with such miraculous speed and a man steps forward from no where, an ordinary man and claims that he can do it better, much quicker then isn't this strange??? If something is mentioned in the Quran then that is fine otherwise it's impossible???

Allah mentions in the Quran that tell the Christians that they are mistaken, Jesus (as) wasn't crucified but in fact was protected from crucifixion by Allah and was up lifted to safety and is alive and well. Yes, crucifixion did take place, somebody was crucified but it wasn't Jesus (as), in fact it was a clone of Jesus (as), a Shabih, someone with an exactly similar face.

Wow! This is in the Quran, so we believe it but when this verse, this news wasn't revealed what then??? From the day of crucifixion up until this verse was revealed, in between if someone denied the crucifixion and believed in Jesus (as) being in occultation the what??? How would have these people been viewed??? How would they have been looked at and treated Just like the Shias who believe in the occultation of Al Mahdi (as), I guess!

It's strange because Ali (RA) wasn't born at the time, and the Prophets called upon Allah (SWT) for help not a human being who wasn't even conceived and could not save himself from sudden death.

It wasn't Ali (RA) who helped Sulaiman (AS) and saved Isa (AS) - get over it.

When ever you ask help from Allah has he ever come to help you himself, personally??? LOL! Yes you ask Allah for help and he will help you through someone and by something. There will be some kind of Waseelah/zareeyah by through and which Allah will help. Never mind about getting over it, get use to it. So why didn't Allah help Soloman (as) It was a Jinn who volunteered and a man who said he could do better. Where was Allah??? Here a jinn and a man are volunteering and you claim Allah only helps. So where is Allah and why is Soloman (as) seeking help from others apart from Allah??? And who was the man??? I am surprised at your thinking.

[Optimus Prime]

I don't know what your point is here. May be you can tell me. I will ask you this in the mean time, the man who claimed that he well bring the throne of Queen Bilqees right before Soloman (as) quicker than the blink of an eye, do you believe in this story??? Lets take it from here. Do you believe in this event???

I have no issue with the verse. But to claim that the man was Imam Ali (as) is really a strange opinion.

Strange? LOL.

Once Farid posted a quote from a Rafidhi from SC site who said Ali (RA) saved Isa (AS) from the cross. Isa (AS) literally called out by saying "Ya Ali".

Why is this STRANGE??? Whether this is true or not can be discussed but why strange??? If a Genee can turn around and say to Soloman (as) that I can bring such a huge, massive, heavy throne to you with such miraculous speed and a man steps forward from no where, an ordinary man and claims that he can do it better, much quicker then isn't this strange??? If something is mentioned in the Quran then that is fine otherwise it's impossible???

Allah mentions in the Quran that tell the Christians that they are mistaken, Jesus (as) wasn't crucified but in fact was protected from crucifixion by Allah and was up lifted to safety and is alive and well. Yes, crucifixion did take place, somebody was crucified but it wasn't Jesus (as), in fact it was a clone of Jesus (as), a Shabih, someone with an exactly similar face.

Wow! This is in the Quran, so we believe it but when this verse, this news wasn't revealed what then??? From the day of crucifixion up until this verse was revealed, in between if someone denied the crucifixion and believed in Jesus (as) being in occultation the what??? How would have these people been viewed??? How would they have been looked at and treated Just like the Shias who believe in the occultation of Al Mahdi (as), I guess!

It's strange because Ali (RA) wasn't born at the time, and the Prophets called upon Allah (SWT) for help not a human being who wasn't even conceived and could not save himself from sudden death.

It wasn't Ali (RA) who helped Sulaiman (AS) and saved Isa (AS) - get over it.

When ever you ask help from Allah has he ever come to help you himself, personally??? LOL! Yes you ask Allah for help and he will help you through someone and by something. There will be some kind of Waseelah/zareeyah by through and which Allah will help. Never mind about getting over it, get use to it. So why didn't Allah help Soloman (as) It was a Jinn who volunteered and a man who said he could do better. Where was Allah??? Here a jinn and a man are volunteering and you claim Allah only helps. So where is Allah and why is Soloman (as) seeking help from others apart from Allah??? And who was the man??? I am surprised at your thinking.

By far the most retarded answer I've read.

First off, the narrartions to suggest Ali (RA) lifted a the door of Khaibar are weak from what I've read.

Secondly, your answer is right, but dubious at the same time. This doesn't support your answer that Ali (RA) can be two places at once or has some abilities where he can travel to the astro plane (look it up). The Prophet (SAW) asked Allah (SWT) for help and guidance during through his rein, so we do no different. How it comes it doesn't matter providing the end result is what we require or desire.

- Ayub (AS) was cured by Allah for his sickness, how?
- Younis (AS) was finally set free from the belly of a whale, how?
- Musa (AS) was protected by the Pharoah who was a superpower, how?

Sulaiman (AS) could've done it himself. what're you blabbering about? Did Allah (SWT) not give him power to control the Jinn kind, the winds and speak to all forms of creatures? He was a King of his time, and was calling upon his minions to carry out his work just like Allah entrusts certaisn people to cascade the message of Tawheed to the people of the time. All Prophets asked Allah alone for assistance. Further more who made the man who got the the throne? Was it Ali (RA) or Allah (SWT)? Who granted this man the ability to perform such a miracle? So, thus in the end who did the Prophets give thanks to over any form of accommplishment? Allah (SWT) not Ali (RA). This is testimony via the words of Allah (SWT) himself. Sulaiman (AS) gave thanks to his Lord (SWT for all his bounties just because it is not specifically quoted doesn't mean otherwise.

Let me ask you straight up, and I'd like a straight up answer.

Do you believe it was Ali (RA) who saved Isa (AS) from cruxifician?
Do you believe that man who helped Sulaiman (AS) was Ali (RA)

[Rationalist]

The definition you've given more suits others. I have answered your question on what is the point of Imamath. I don't know what more you are looking for. Once again, Imamath is guidance regarding Quran and Sunnah and an Imams duty and job is to protect, defend and safeguard Islam.

Many scholars have guided Muslims and Non-Muslims using the Quran and Sunnah. Your basic definition of Imamate is no different from what a scholar does to guide to the Ummah.  Also, not only the 11 Imams but many other descendants of bibi Fatima (sa) claimed Imamate who inherited traditions from the household and guided the ummah by the Quran and Sunnah.

As far as Hazrath Ali (as) going back in time is concerned, who said and where did it say that this is a core belief of the Shia.

The 12er Shia tafseer says that it was Imam Ali (as) who was the man who Prophet Sulaiman (as) was aided by.  Since it is a 12er Shia tafsir I thought it was the core beliefs of your sect. Do 12ers have different beliefs regarding this tafsir?

Who was the man who claimed that he will bring the throne of queen Bilqees quicker and faster than the blink of an eye??? If Hazrath Ali (as) ripped apart and took down the gates Khaibar and you believe in this and miracles by non Messengers/Prophets but still don't understand the status and personality of Hazrath Ali (as) and continue to hold others superior and above Ali (as) then, it's up to you.

This superiority presented in Agha Pooya's tafsir contradicts the Quran and makes Imam Ali (as) superior to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself.

Many questions can be raised here but you ask to catch out and put forward to put down. Since when have any of you been interested in a serious discussion???

If you think I am not serious why bother even replying? Wouldn't it be more productive for you to use this time and energy to pray for the reappearance of the 12th Imam ? In your own books Imam Jafar's (as) said out of 100,000  people in Iraq who claim they are loyal to him, he couldn't  even find 17. Now you think, you can do a better job with your proofs ?

[Ameen]

Ok brother Imam Ali, the narrations about Hazrath Ali (as) ripping off the huge gates of Khaibar are weak. Why??? Because you believe it is impossible for someone to do that??? Or is there another reason for such narrations to be weak???