Challenge to Iceman

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Okay lets keep it short & sweet.

I must prove from the Quran only that Abu Bakr & Khalid’s (may Allah be pleased with them both) actions regarding zakat were rightful or not.

You must prove from the Quran ONLY that the 12 Imams are the 12 you believe in the order & by names you believe in.

You started issuing Quran only challenges.

Are you ready?

[iceman]

Okay lets keep it short & sweet.

I must prove from the Quran only that Abu Bakr & Khalid’s (may Allah be pleased with them both) actions regarding zakat were rightful or not.

You must prove from the Quran ONLY that the 12 Imams are the 12 you believe in the order & by names you believe in.

You started issuing Quran only challenges.

Are you ready?

I didn't issue anything. You're just putting words into my mouth then accusing me of them. I was told that if you don't pay or give Zakah or don't hand the Zakah money to the ruler of the time, like the case of Malik bin Nuwayrah, then you've become an apostate and you are Wajib Ul Qatal, in other words you instantly face the death penalty by being beheaded.

All I asked was that since you say that important matters such as Usool (pillars of faith) need to come from the Qur'an itself. The matter in discussions is also from Usool and should be proven from the Qur'an. All I'm saying is what you demand is what you should deliver. That is all.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

I didn't issue anything. You're just putting words into my mouth then accusing me of them. I was told that if you don't pay or give Zakah or don't hand the Zakah money to the ruler of the time, like the case of Malik bin Nuwayrah, then you've become an apostate and you are Wajib Ul Qatal, in other words you instantly face the death penalty by being beheaded.

All I asked was that since you say that important matters such as Usool (pillars of faith) need to come from the Qur'an itself. The matter in discussions is also from Usool and should be proven from the Qur'an. All I'm saying is what you demand is what you should deliver. That is all.

Zakah is in the Quran. That is usool.
That we all agree.
As for Abu Bakr’s (may Allah be pleased with him) policy of collection then last time I checked it was not a matter of Usool nor is the Quran a tax booklet.
Now your belief of 12 Imams & knowing their names is usool according to you, so please go ahead prove these 12 & their names from the Quran.

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

All I asked was that since you say that important matters such as Usool (pillars of faith) need to come from the Qur'an itself. The matter in discussions is also from Usool and should be proven from the Qur'an. All I'm saying is what you demand is what you should deliver. That is all.

The details doesn't need to be mentioned in Quran. What needs to be mentioned in Quran is the address to the believers about it in the form of command.

Take example of fasting. It's details aren't given in Quran but here you read the hadeeth:

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ يُونُسَ عَنْ أَبِي بَصِيرٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ مَنْ أُخِذَ فِي شَهْرِ رَمَضَانَ وَ قَدْ أَفْطَرَ فَرُفِعَ إِلَى الْإِمَامِ يُقْتَلُ فِي الثَّالِثَةِ

“Whoever is caught in the month of Ramadan and he is breaking (his fast), he is taken to the Imaam, and he is killed in the third (offense)”. [Al-Kafi, vol 7, page 258, hadeeth #12, Muwatthaq(reliable) as per Majlisi].

[iceman]

The details doesn't need to be mentioned in Quran. What needs to be mentioned in Quran is the address to the believers about it in the form of command.

Take example of fasting. It's details aren't given in Quran but here you read the hadeeth:

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ يُونُسَ عَنْ أَبِي بَصِيرٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ مَنْ أُخِذَ فِي شَهْرِ رَمَضَانَ وَ قَدْ أَفْطَرَ فَرُفِعَ إِلَى الْإِمَامِ يُقْتَلُ فِي الثَّالِثَةِ

“Whoever is caught in the month of Ramadan and he is breaking (his fast), he is taken to the Imaam, and he is killed in the third (offense)”. [Al-Kafi, vol 7, page 258, hadeeth #12, Muwatthaq(reliable) as per Majlisi].

Ok but who's job is it to catch. And who gave this person or people the permission to catch. And are we not going to ask the person why they're  breaking their fast. Surely there should be some indication of such extreme measures in the Qur'an. Or do people just come up with what they think, assume or feel like. How do we know what's exact and true and how much. Obviously the Qur'an is and should be the source. Not for every single bit and thing but for at least the main and core bits.

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

Ok but who's job is it to catch. And who gave this person or people the permission to catch. And are we not going to ask the person why they're  breaking their fast. Surely there should be some indication of such extreme measures in the Qur'an. Or do people just come up with what they think, assume or feel like. How do we know what's exact and true and how much. Obviously the Qur'an is and should be the source. Not for every single bit and thing but for at least the main and core bits.

You are now trying to change the goal post. Point is that it doesn't have to be mentioned in Quran, as I proved from Shia hadeeth. But the problem is again ignorant like you who neither know about Islam nor about Shiism.

[Mythbuster1]

I didn't issue anything. You're just putting words into my mouth then accusing me of them. I was told that if you don't pay or give Zakah or don't hand the Zakah money to the ruler of the time, like the case of Malik bin Nuwayrah, then you've become an apostate and you are Wajib Ul Qatal, in other words you instantly face the death penalty by being beheaded.

All I asked was that since you say that important matters such as Usool (pillars of faith) need to come from the Qur'an itself. The matter in discussions is also from Usool and should be proven from the Qur'an. All I'm saying is what you demand is what you should deliver. That is all.

Lol you cannot even prove divine Imamate the greatest usul in your deen and you wanna find zakah?

That’s the funniest thing I’ve ever heard

Come on then give us a clear verse from the Quran that believing in divine Imamate is an usool

Since you came here you have never answered that apart from using a verse that includes wives

You are a joke and I called you out for that and you have never given any proof apart from your own interpretation about the verse.

And now alhamdulillah everyone can see ameen for who he is 😜👍

[iceman]

You are now trying to change the goal post. Point is that it doesn't have to be mentioned in Quran, as I proved from Shia hadeeth. But the problem is again ignorant like you who neither know about Islam nor about Shiism.

I'm not interested in your accusations and what you think and assume. You have plenty of info floating around in this book or that book or he said this or that, the question is Qur'an alone is the main and vital source for check and balance,

and you gents are failing miserably to provide a shread of evidence to back any of your claims. Please don't take your anger and frustration out on me because of your constant failure.

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

I'm not interested in your accusations and what you think and assume. You have plenty of info floating around in this book or that book or he said this or that, the question is Qur'an alone is the main and vital source for check and balance,

This is the problem which we have dealing with dishonest opponents. When the discussion, is with a Shia, then the evidences which are a binding upon the Shias are presented. But when they find themselves trapped, they started arguing like Quranists, as if their reports authenticated by their scholars arent a hujjah on them. First they should make up their mind, what are they representing Shiism or Quranists. A discussion can't reach a proper conclusion, if a person demands something as per his wishes and desires, since nothing that does against his desires would be acceptable to him.

[iceman]

This is the problem which we have dealing with dishonest opponents. When the discussion, is with a Shia, then the evidences which are a binding upon the Shias are presented. But when they find themselves trapped, they started arguing like Quranists, as if their reports authenticated by their scholars arent a hujjah on them. First they should make up their mind, what are they representing Shiism or Quranists. A discussion can't reach a proper conclusion, if a person demands something as per his wishes and desires, since nothing that does against his desires would be acceptable to him.

All I've done is put a very simple and straightforward question related to the topic and discussion and look at the drama you gents are causing.

The matter is related and connected to the killing of Malik bin Nuwayrah.

Does the ruler, in this case Abu Bakr bin Kuafah, have the Islamic right to force people to give/pay Zakah or hand over the Zakah money to the central government. If people refuse to give/pay Zakah then do they become apostates and do they face the death penalty, beheading in the case of Malik and his tribe men.

This is no ordinary matter but an extremely important issue and is there any indication in the Qur'an to back this up. That's all I've asked and instead of answering and moving the discussion forward you gents are causing a drama, letting off tantrums and making a big scene of it.

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

All I've done is put a very simple and straightforward question related to the topic and discussion and look at the drama you gents are causing.

The matter is related and connected to the killing of Malik bin Nuwayrah.

Does the ruler, in this case Abu Bakr bin Kuafah, have the Islamic right to force people to give/pay Zakah or hand over the Zakah money to the central government. If people refuse to give/pay Zakah then do they become apostates and do they face the death penalty, beheading in the case of Malik and his tribe men.

This is no ordinary matter but an extremely important issue and is there any indication in the Qur'an to back this up. That's all I've asked and instead of answering and moving the discussion forward you gents are causing a drama, letting off tantrums and making a big scene of it.

So you have converted from Shiism to a Quranist? When did this happen ? Or is it just to save your face in the discussion ?

[iceman]

So you have converted from Shiism to a Quranist? When did this happen ? Or is it just to save your face in the discussion ?

No. Your attitude and behaviour, the way you react and respond, the stance you gents have taken absolutely and definitely  tells me you're DOWN AND OUT regarding this matter. I can absolutely carry on with the discussion but nothing more to say about your arrogance and stubbornness. But you can carry on EMBARRASSING yourselves. Viewers know what direction this is going.

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

No. Your attitude and behaviour, the way you react and respond, the stance you gents have taken absolutely and definitely  tells me you're DOWN AND OUT regarding this matter. I can absolutely carry on with the discussion but nothing more to say about your arrogance and stubbornness. But you can carry on EMBARRASSING yourselves. Viewers know what direction this is going.

Viewers can see and judge who is on the run when confronted with Authentic Shia hadeeth about punishing the person who breaks the fast for three days. Your ignorance of the teachings of Shia  Madhab has exposed and humiliated you.

[iceman]

Viewers can see and judge who is on the run when confronted with Authentic Shia hadeeth about punishing the person who breaks the fast for three days. Your ignorance of the teachings of Shia  Madhab has exposed and humiliated you.

Once again what ever you put forward in your defense any indication from the Qur'an to back it up? If not then it's just part of your faith and belief based on political ruling by the rulers of the time. Anything serious as such needs to be backed by the Qur'an to give it Shariah ruling.

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

Once again what ever you put forward in your defense any indication from the Qur'an to back it up? If not then it's just part of your faith and belief based on political ruling by the rulers of the time. Anything serious as such needs to be backed by the Qur'an to give it Shariah ruling.

Your ignorance and arrogance is laughable. I’m giving you a Shia hadeeth to Back my claim. If you aren’t a Shia then, that’s not my problem.

[iceman]

Your ignorance and arrogance is laughable. I’m giving you a Shia hadeeth to Back my claim. If you aren’t a Shia then, that’s not my problem.

We're talking about the situation of Malik bin Nuwayrah. Why not stick to the subject. Even the men in Khalid’s armed convey greatly disputed the situation regarding Malik and his tribe. Some said they weren't Muslims anymore and others disagreed and said they were.

As far as apostasy and capital punishment is concerned does it needs to be proven from the Qur'an?

Why can't you back something serious and important from the Qur'an. What seems to be the problem.

[Abu Rumaysah]

Probably this is the best example why I do believe we should not waste our time in debates with shias.

They are leaving beside fact that pillar of their faith, matter of being muslim or disbeliever isn't mentioned in Islamic texts in clear way, and spending their time by investigating deeds of people that already met their Lord.

[iceman]

Probably this is the best example why I do believe we should not waste our time in debates with shias.

They are leaving beside fact that pillar of their faith, matter of being muslim or disbeliever isn't mentioned in Islamic texts in clear way, and spending their time by investigating deeds of people that already met their Lord.

Yes absolutely. You shouldn't be wasting time having a dig at us when you need to get your story right and sort out your own back yard. But you're too busy having a silly and baseless crack at us.

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

We're talking about the situation of Malik bin Nuwayrah. Why not stick to the subject. Even the men in Khalid’s armed convey greatly disputed the situation regarding Malik and his tribe. Some said they weren't Muslims anymore and others disagreed and said they were.

Its you who keeps changing the subject, whenever you are left answer-less.  In this case, are you saying that those who disagreed did they believe that a person who rejects to take out Zakat is a Muslim? And not an apostate?

As far as apostasy and capital punishment is concerned does it needs to be proven from the Qur'an?

Why can't you back something serious and important from the Qur'an. What seems to be the problem.

So did your Imam made a huge mistake for issuing capital punishment for those who apostate? Do you consider your Imam committed a sin then?

[iceman]

Its you who keeps changing the subject, whenever you are left answer-less.  In this case, are you saying that those who disagreed did they believe that a person who rejects to take out Zakat is a Muslim? And not an apostate?


So did your Imam made a huge mistake for issuing capital punishment for those who apostate? Do you consider your Imam committed a sin then?

Just a simple and repeated question which you gents keep dancing around time and time again just to stretch the argument so you can save yourself from owning up and making yourselves look weighty.

Capital punishment in Islam. In Islamic ruled and governed countries who decides on capital punishment based on religious issues, Allah or the ruler of the country. Lesser punishment or penalties are all decided by Allah for example in the cases such as adultry, not fasting or breaking your fast before time without due reason, killing someone accidently or unintentionally etc etc.

When it comes to the issue of Zakah who decides on what happens to those who don't pay or give Zakah. Are they subject to capital punishment by beheading. On who's orders. Who decides this, Allah or the ruler of the time. Do you give or pay Zakah. Can the ruler of the time force you to give or pay Zakah. A lot of questions but all related to the same issue and matter but somehow scares and frightens some of you.

What does 'La ikraha fid deen' mean, 'there is no compulsion within Islam" If this is not an academic and meaningful discussion then I don't know what is.