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Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Quran-Tafseer => Topic started by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 06, 2018, 11:22:41 AM

Title: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 06, 2018, 11:22:41 AM
Okay lets keep it short & sweet.

I must prove from the Quran only that Abu Bakr & Khalid’s (may Allah be pleased with them both) actions regarding zakat were rightful or not.

You must prove from the Quran ONLY that the 12 Imams are the 12 you believe in the order & by names you believe in.

You started issuing Quran only challenges.

Are you ready?
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: iceman on July 06, 2018, 08:30:51 PM
Okay lets keep it short & sweet.

I must prove from the Quran only that Abu Bakr & Khalid’s (may Allah be pleased with them both) actions regarding zakat were rightful or not.

You must prove from the Quran ONLY that the 12 Imams are the 12 you believe in the order & by names you believe in.

You started issuing Quran only challenges.

Are you ready?

I didn't issue anything. You're just putting words into my mouth then accusing me of them. I was told that if you don't pay or give Zakah or don't hand the Zakah money to the ruler of the time, like the case of Malik bin Nuwayrah, then you've become an apostate and you are Wajib Ul Qatal, in other words you instantly face the death penalty by being beheaded.

All I asked was that since you say that important matters such as Usool (pillars of faith) need to come from the Qur'an itself. The matter in discussions is also from Usool and should be proven from the Qur'an. All I'm saying is what you demand is what you should deliver. That is all.
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 07, 2018, 12:23:07 AM
I didn't issue anything. You're just putting words into my mouth then accusing me of them. I was told that if you don't pay or give Zakah or don't hand the Zakah money to the ruler of the time, like the case of Malik bin Nuwayrah, then you've become an apostate and you are Wajib Ul Qatal, in other words you instantly face the death penalty by being beheaded.

All I asked was that since you say that important matters such as Usool (pillars of faith) need to come from the Qur'an itself. The matter in discussions is also from Usool and should be proven from the Qur'an. All I'm saying is what you demand is what you should deliver. That is all.

Zakah is in the Quran. That is usool.
That we all agree.
As for Abu Bakr’s (may Allah be pleased with him) policy of collection then last time I checked it was not a matter of Usool nor is the Quran a tax booklet.
Now your belief of 12 Imams & knowing their names is usool according to you, so please go ahead prove these 12 & their names from the Quran.
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on July 07, 2018, 11:35:27 AM
All I asked was that since you say that important matters such as Usool (pillars of faith) need to come from the Qur'an itself. The matter in discussions is also from Usool and should be proven from the Qur'an. All I'm saying is what you demand is what you should deliver. That is all.
The details doesn't need to be mentioned in Quran. What needs to be mentioned in Quran is the address to the believers about it in the form of command.

Take example of fasting. It's details aren't given in Quran but here you read the hadeeth:

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ يُونُسَ عَنْ أَبِي بَصِيرٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ مَنْ أُخِذَ فِي شَهْرِ رَمَضَانَ وَ قَدْ أَفْطَرَ فَرُفِعَ إِلَى الْإِمَامِ يُقْتَلُ فِي الثَّالِثَةِ

“Whoever is caught in the month of Ramadan and he is breaking (his fast), he is taken to the Imaam, and he is killed in the third (offense)”. [Al-Kafi, vol 7, page 258, hadeeth #12, Muwatthaq(reliable) as per Majlisi].
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: iceman on July 07, 2018, 01:07:40 PM
The details doesn't need to be mentioned in Quran. What needs to be mentioned in Quran is the address to the believers about it in the form of command.

Take example of fasting. It's details aren't given in Quran but here you read the hadeeth:

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ يُونُسَ عَنْ أَبِي بَصِيرٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ مَنْ أُخِذَ فِي شَهْرِ رَمَضَانَ وَ قَدْ أَفْطَرَ فَرُفِعَ إِلَى الْإِمَامِ يُقْتَلُ فِي الثَّالِثَةِ

“Whoever is caught in the month of Ramadan and he is breaking (his fast), he is taken to the Imaam, and he is killed in the third (offense)”. [Al-Kafi, vol 7, page 258, hadeeth #12, Muwatthaq(reliable) as per Majlisi].

Ok but who's job is it to catch. And who gave this person or people the permission to catch. And are we not going to ask the person why they're  breaking their fast. Surely there should be some indication of such extreme measures in the Qur'an. Or do people just come up with what they think, assume or feel like. How do we know what's exact and true and how much. Obviously the Qur'an is and should be the source. Not for every single bit and thing but for at least the main and core bits.
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on July 07, 2018, 02:39:08 PM
Ok but who's job is it to catch. And who gave this person or people the permission to catch. And are we not going to ask the person why they're  breaking their fast. Surely there should be some indication of such extreme measures in the Qur'an. Or do people just come up with what they think, assume or feel like. How do we know what's exact and true and how much. Obviously the Qur'an is and should be the source. Not for every single bit and thing but for at least the main and core bits.

You are now trying to change the goal post. Point is that it doesn't have to be mentioned in Quran, as I proved from Shia hadeeth. But the problem is again ignorant like you who neither know about Islam nor about Shiism.
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: Mythbuster1 on July 07, 2018, 02:48:56 PM
I didn't issue anything. You're just putting words into my mouth then accusing me of them. I was told that if you don't pay or give Zakah or don't hand the Zakah money to the ruler of the time, like the case of Malik bin Nuwayrah, then you've become an apostate and you are Wajib Ul Qatal, in other words you instantly face the death penalty by being beheaded.

All I asked was that since you say that important matters such as Usool (pillars of faith) need to come from the Qur'an itself. The matter in discussions is also from Usool and should be proven from the Qur'an. All I'm saying is what you demand is what you should deliver. That is all.



Lol you cannot even prove divine Imamate the greatest usul in your deen and you wanna find zakah?

That’s the funniest thing I’ve ever heard

Come on then give us a clear verse from the Quran that believing in divine Imamate is an usool

Since you came here you have never answered that apart from using a verse that includes wives

You are a joke and I called you out for that and you have never given any proof apart from your own interpretation about the verse.

And now alhamdulillah everyone can see ameen for who he is 😜👍
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: iceman on July 07, 2018, 03:57:45 PM
You are now trying to change the goal post. Point is that it doesn't have to be mentioned in Quran, as I proved from Shia hadeeth. But the problem is again ignorant like you who neither know about Islam nor about Shiism.

I'm not interested in your accusations and what you think and assume. You have plenty of info floating around in this book or that book or he said this or that, the question is Qur'an alone is the main and vital source for check and balance,

and you gents are failing miserably to provide a shread of evidence to back any of your claims. Please don't take your anger and frustration out on me because of your constant failure.
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on July 07, 2018, 04:34:25 PM
I'm not interested in your accusations and what you think and assume. You have plenty of info floating around in this book or that book or he said this or that, the question is Qur'an alone is the main and vital source for check and balance,

This is the problem which we have dealing with dishonest opponents. When the discussion, is with a Shia, then the evidences which are a binding upon the Shias are presented. But when they find themselves trapped, they started arguing like Quranists, as if their reports authenticated by their scholars arent a hujjah on them. First they should make up their mind, what are they representing Shiism or Quranists. A discussion can't reach a proper conclusion, if a person demands something as per his wishes and desires, since nothing that does against his desires would be acceptable to him.
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: iceman on July 08, 2018, 10:05:21 AM
This is the problem which we have dealing with dishonest opponents. When the discussion, is with a Shia, then the evidences which are a binding upon the Shias are presented. But when they find themselves trapped, they started arguing like Quranists, as if their reports authenticated by their scholars arent a hujjah on them. First they should make up their mind, what are they representing Shiism or Quranists. A discussion can't reach a proper conclusion, if a person demands something as per his wishes and desires, since nothing that does against his desires would be acceptable to him.

All I've done is put a very simple and straightforward question related to the topic and discussion and look at the drama you gents are causing.

The matter is related and connected to the killing of Malik bin Nuwayrah.

Does the ruler, in this case Abu Bakr bin Kuafah, have the Islamic right to force people to give/pay Zakah or hand over the Zakah money to the central government. If people refuse to give/pay Zakah then do they become apostates and do they face the death penalty, beheading in the case of Malik and his tribe men.

This is no ordinary matter but an extremely important issue and is there any indication in the Qur'an to back this up. That's all I've asked and instead of answering and moving the discussion forward you gents are causing a drama, letting off tantrums and making a big scene of it.

Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on July 08, 2018, 10:12:35 AM
All I've done is put a very simple and straightforward question related to the topic and discussion and look at the drama you gents are causing.

The matter is related and connected to the killing of Malik bin Nuwayrah.

Does the ruler, in this case Abu Bakr bin Kuafah, have the Islamic right to force people to give/pay Zakah or hand over the Zakah money to the central government. If people refuse to give/pay Zakah then do they become apostates and do they face the death penalty, beheading in the case of Malik and his tribe men.

This is no ordinary matter but an extremely important issue and is there any indication in the Qur'an to back this up. That's all I've asked and instead of answering and moving the discussion forward you gents are causing a drama, letting off tantrums and making a big scene of it.

So you have converted from Shiism to a Quranist? When did this happen ? Or is it just to save your face in the discussion ?
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: iceman on July 08, 2018, 12:00:22 PM
So you have converted from Shiism to a Quranist? When did this happen ? Or is it just to save your face in the discussion ?

No. Your attitude and behaviour, the way you react and respond, the stance you gents have taken absolutely and definitely  tells me you're DOWN AND OUT regarding this matter. I can absolutely carry on with the discussion but nothing more to say about your arrogance and stubbornness. But you can carry on EMBARRASSING yourselves. Viewers know what direction this is going.
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on July 08, 2018, 01:14:04 PM
No. Your attitude and behaviour, the way you react and respond, the stance you gents have taken absolutely and definitely  tells me you're DOWN AND OUT regarding this matter. I can absolutely carry on with the discussion but nothing more to say about your arrogance and stubbornness. But you can carry on EMBARRASSING yourselves. Viewers know what direction this is going.

Viewers can see and judge who is on the run when confronted with Authentic Shia hadeeth about punishing the person who breaks the fast for three days. Your ignorance of the teachings of Shia  Madhab has exposed and humiliated you.
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: iceman on July 08, 2018, 01:38:07 PM
Viewers can see and judge who is on the run when confronted with Authentic Shia hadeeth about punishing the person who breaks the fast for three days. Your ignorance of the teachings of Shia  Madhab has exposed and humiliated you.

Once again what ever you put forward in your defense any indication from the Qur'an to back it up? If not then it's just part of your faith and belief based on political ruling by the rulers of the time. Anything serious as such needs to be backed by the Qur'an to give it Shariah ruling.
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on July 08, 2018, 01:40:40 PM
Once again what ever you put forward in your defense any indication from the Qur'an to back it up? If not then it's just part of your faith and belief based on political ruling by the rulers of the time. Anything serious as such needs to be backed by the Qur'an to give it Shariah ruling.


Your ignorance and arrogance is laughable. I’m giving you a Shia hadeeth to Back my claim. If you aren’t a Shia then, that’s not my problem.
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: iceman on July 08, 2018, 01:51:08 PM


Your ignorance and arrogance is laughable. I’m giving you a Shia hadeeth to Back my claim. If you aren’t a Shia then, that’s not my problem.

We're talking about the situation of Malik bin Nuwayrah. Why not stick to the subject. Even the men in Khalid’s armed convey greatly disputed the situation regarding Malik and his tribe. Some said they weren't Muslims anymore and others disagreed and said they were.

As far as apostasy and capital punishment is concerned does it needs to be proven from the Qur'an?

Why can't you back something serious and important from the Qur'an. What seems to be the problem.
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: Abu Rumaysah on July 08, 2018, 02:28:58 PM
Probably this is the best example why I do believe we should not waste our time in debates with shias.

They are leaving beside fact that pillar of their faith, matter of being muslim or disbeliever isn't mentioned in Islamic texts in clear way, and spending their time by investigating deeds of people that already met their Lord.
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: iceman on July 08, 2018, 03:02:45 PM
Probably this is the best example why I do believe we should not waste our time in debates with shias.

They are leaving beside fact that pillar of their faith, matter of being muslim or disbeliever isn't mentioned in Islamic texts in clear way, and spending their time by investigating deeds of people that already met their Lord.

Yes absolutely. You shouldn't be wasting time having a dig at us when you need to get your story right and sort out your own back yard. But you're too busy having a silly and baseless crack at us.
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on July 08, 2018, 09:42:20 PM
We're talking about the situation of Malik bin Nuwayrah. Why not stick to the subject. Even the men in Khalid’s armed convey greatly disputed the situation regarding Malik and his tribe. Some said they weren't Muslims anymore and others disagreed and said they were.
Its you who keeps changing the subject, whenever you are left answer-less.  In this case, are you saying that those who disagreed did they believe that a person who rejects to take out Zakat is a Muslim? And not an apostate?



As far as apostasy and capital punishment is concerned does it needs to be proven from the Qur'an?

Why can't you back something serious and important from the Qur'an. What seems to be the problem.
So did your Imam made a huge mistake for issuing capital punishment for those who apostate? Do you consider your Imam committed a sin then?
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: iceman on July 09, 2018, 01:23:30 AM
Its you who keeps changing the subject, whenever you are left answer-less.  In this case, are you saying that those who disagreed did they believe that a person who rejects to take out Zakat is a Muslim? And not an apostate?


So did your Imam made a huge mistake for issuing capital punishment for those who apostate? Do you consider your Imam committed a sin then?

Just a simple and repeated question which you gents keep dancing around time and time again just to stretch the argument so you can save yourself from owning up and making yourselves look weighty.

Capital punishment in Islam. In Islamic ruled and governed countries who decides on capital punishment based on religious issues, Allah or the ruler of the country. Lesser punishment or penalties are all decided by Allah for example in the cases such as adultry, not fasting or breaking your fast before time without due reason, killing someone accidently or unintentionally etc etc.

When it comes to the issue of Zakah who decides on what happens to those who don't pay or give Zakah. Are they subject to capital punishment by beheading. On who's orders. Who decides this, Allah or the ruler of the time. Do you give or pay Zakah. Can the ruler of the time force you to give or pay Zakah. A lot of questions but all related to the same issue and matter but somehow scares and frightens some of you.

What does 'La ikraha fid deen' mean, 'there is no compulsion within Islam" If this is not an academic and meaningful discussion then I don't know what is.
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on July 09, 2018, 09:15:21 AM
Just a simple and repeated question which you gents keep dancing around time and time again just to stretch the argument so you can save yourself from owning up and making yourselves look weighty.

Capital punishment in Islam. In Islamic ruled and governed countries who decides on capital punishment based on religious issues, Allah or the ruler of the country. Lesser punishment or penalties are all decided by Allah for example in the cases such as adultry, not fasting or breaking your fast before time without due reason, killing someone accidently or unintentionally etc etc.

When it comes to the issue of Zakah who decides on what happens to those who don't pay or give Zakah. Are they subject to capital punishment by beheading. On who's orders. Who decides this, Allah or the ruler of the time. Do you give or pay Zakah. Can the ruler of the time force you to give or pay Zakah. A lot of questions but all related to the same issue and matter but somehow scares and frightens some of you.

What does 'La ikraha fid deen' mean, 'there is no compulsion within Islam" If this is not an academic and meaningful discussion then I don't know what is.

Let’s see for how long you will dodge the reports from your imam.

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ وَ عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ سَهْلِ بْنِ زِيَادٍ جَمِيعاً عَنِ ابْنِ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنِ الْعَلَاءِ بْنِ رَزِينٍ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ مُسْلِمٍ قَالَ سَأَلْتُ أَبَا جَعْفَرٍ ع عَنِ الْمُرْتَدِّ فَقَالَ مَنْ رَغِبَ عَنِ الْإِسْلَامِ وَ كَفَرَ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ ص بَعْدَ إِسْلَامِهِ فَلَا تَوْبَةَ لَهُ وَ قَدْ وَجَبَ قَتْلُهُ وَ بَانَتْ مِنْهُ امْرَأَتُهُ وَ يُقْسَمُ مَا تَرَكَ عَلَى وُلْدِهِ

From Muhammad bin Muslim said: That I said Abaa Ja`far (عليه السلام) about the apostate (murtad). So he (عليه السلام) said: “Whoever turns away from Islaam, and disbelieves in what Allaah has revealed to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) after being a Muslim, there is no repentance for him, and it is waajib (obligatory) to kill him, and his wife becomes a stranger to him, and his legacy be divided among his children.” Source:
1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 256, hadeeth # 1
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan Kal-SaHeeH (Good like an Authentic (hadeeth))
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg. 396



مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنِ الْعَمْرَكِيِّ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ النَّيْسَابُورِيِّ عَنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ جَعْفَرٍ عَنْ أَخِيهِ أَبِي الْحَسَنِ ع قَالَ سَأَلْتُهُ عَنْ مُسْلِمٍ تَنَصَّرَ قَالَ يُقْتَلُ وَ لَا يُسْتَتَابُ قُلْتُ فَنَصْرَانِيٌّ أَسْلَمَ ثُمَّ ارْتَدَّ عَنِ الْإِسْلَامِ قَالَ يُسْتَتَابُ فَإِنْ رَجَعَ وَ إِلَّا قُتِلَ

From `Alee bin Ja`far from his brother Abee Al-Hasan (عليه السلام) said: I asked him (عليه السلام) about a Muslim who becomes a Christian. He (عليه السلام) said: “He (should be) killed, and no repentance from him” I said: “What about a Christian who becomes Muslim then Apostates from Islaam?” He (عليه السلام) said: “He is asked to repent. And if he returns (to Islaam that is okay), or otherwise he is killed”
Source:
1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 257, hadeeth # 10
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Muwaththaq (Reliable)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg. 400


عَنِ الْإِسْلَامِ وَ جَحَدَ مُحَمَّداً ص نُبُوَّتَهُ وَ كَذَّبَهُ فَإِنَّ دَمَهُ مُبَاحٌ لِكُلِّ مَنْ سَمِعَ ذَلِكَ مِنْهُ وَ امْرَأَتَهُ بَائِنَةٌ مِنْهُ يَوْمَ ارْتَدَّ فَلَا تَقْرَبْهُ وَ يُقْسَمُ مَالُهُ عَلَى وَرَثَتِهِ وَ تَعْتَدُّ امْرَأَتُهُ [بَعْدُ] عِدَّةَ الْمُتَوَفَّى عَنْهَا زَوْجُهَا وَ عَلَى الْإِمَامِ أَنْ يَقْتُلَهُ وَ لَا يَسْتَتِيبَهُ

From `Ammaar Al-SaabaaTee said: I hear Abaa `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) he (عليه السلام) said: “Every Muslim amongst the Muslimeen who apostates from Islaam, and denies Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) prophecy and (call) him (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) a liar. His blood is allowed (to kill) whoever hears that from him. And his wife baa’inah (?) from the day of apostasy, and she should not go near him. And his wealth is divided amongst his heirs and his wife invokes upon herself `iddah of the death of her husband. And it is upon Imaam (leader) that he kills him, and does not ask for repentance”
Source:
1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 257-258, hadeeth # 11
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg. 400



عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ سَالِمٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع أَنَّهُ سَأَلَ عَمَّنْ شَتَمَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ص فَقَالَ يَقْتُلُهُ الْأَدْنَى فَالْأَدْنَى قَبْلَ أَنْ يَرْفَعَهُ إِلَى الْإِمَامِ

From Hishaam bin Saalim from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) That he was asked about one who abuses the Messenger of Allaah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) So he (عليه السلام) said: “He is to be killed, for the lowest of the low (rebuke) before he is taken to the Imaam”
Source:
1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 259, hadeeth # 21
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg



حدثني محمد بن قولويه، قال حدثني سعد بن عبد الله، قال حدثنا يعقوب بن يزيد و محمد بن عيسى، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن هشام بن سالم، قال : سمعت أبا عبد الله (عليه السلام) يقول و هو يحدث أصحابه بحديث عبد الله بن سبإ و ما ادعى من الربوبية في أمير المؤمنين علي بن أبي طالب، فقال إنه لما ادعى ذلك فيه استتابه أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) فأبى أن يتوب فأحرقه بالنار.
From Hishaam bin Saalim said: I heard from Abaa `Abd  Allaah (عليه السلام)  and he said: “And he narrated from his companions the narration of `Abd  Allaah bin Sabaa’ and he called (to people) the lordship/divinity of Ameer Al-Mumineen `Alee bin Abee Taalib (عليه السلام). So he (عليه السلام) said: That Ameer Al-Mu’mineen ordered him to repent, but he refused. Then Ali let him burn in fire."
Source:
1.     Al-Kashee, Rijaal Al-Kashee, pg. 107, hadeeth # 171



عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ سَالِمٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ أَتَى قَوْمٌ أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ع فَقَالُوا السَّلَامُ عَلَيْكَ يَا رَبَّنَا فَاسْتَتَابَهُمْ فَلَمْ يَتُوبُوا فَحَفَرَ لَهُمْ حَفِيرَةً وَ أَوْقَدَ فِيهَا نَاراً وَ حَفَرَ حَفِيرَةً أُخْرَى إِلَى جَانِبِهَا وَ أَفْضَى مَا بَيْنَهُمَا فَلَمَّا لَمْ يَتُوبُوا أَلْقَاهُمْ فِي الْحَفِيرَةِ وَ أَوْقَدَ فِي الْحَفِيرَةِ الْأُخْرَى [نَاراً] حَتَّى مَاتُوا
A group came to Ameer Al-Mu’mineen (عليه السلام), and they said: “Assalaamu `Alayka (Peace be upon you), O our Lord (rabbanaa)! So he asked for their repentance, but they did not repent. So he dug a ditch for them and lit a fire in it and dug a ditch to its other side and conveyed between them. So when they did not repent he threw them in the ditch and lit in the other ditch until they died.
Source:
1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 258-259, hadeeth # 18
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg. 401


Punishment for Intentionally Breaking Your Fast for Three Days


عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ يُونُسَ عَنْ أَبِي بَصِيرٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ مَنْ أُخِذَ فِي شَهْرِ رَمَضَانَ وَ قَدْ أَفْطَرَ فَرُفِعَ إِلَى الْإِمَامِ يُقْتَلُ فِي الثَّالِثَةِ

“Whoever is caught in the month of RamaDaan and he is breaking (his fast), he is taken to the Imaam, and he is killed in the third (offense)”
Source:
1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 258, hadeeth # 12
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Muwaththaq (Reliable)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg. 401


ابْنُ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ سَالِمٍ عَنْ بُرَيْدٍ الْعِجْلِيِّ قَالَ سُئِلَ أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ ع عَنْ رَجُلٍ شَهِدَ عَلَيْهِ شُهُودٌ أَنَّهُ أَفْطَرَ مِنْ شَهْرِ رَمَضَانَ ثَلَاثَةَ أَيَّامٍ فَقَالَ يُسْأَلُ هَلْ عَلَيْكَ فِي إِفْطَارِكَ إِثْمٌ فَإِنْ قَالَ لَا فَإِنَّ عَلَى الْإِمَامِ أَنْ يَقْتُلَهُ وَ إِنْ هُوَ قَالَ نَعَمْ فَإِنَّ عَلَى الْإِمَامِ أَنْ يَنْهَكَهُ ضَرْباً

From Burayd Al-`Ijlee said: Aboo Ja`far (عليه السلام) was asked about a man who witnesses upon him (say) they witness that he broke (his fast) from the Month of RamaDaan three days. So he (عليه السلام) said: “Ask him: ‘Do you (belief) that breaking (your fast) is a sin?’ And if he says: “No”. It is upon the Imaam (leader) that he kills him, and if he says “Yes”, then it is upon the Imaam that he strikes him hard (?)”
Source:
1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 259, hadeeth # 20
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg. 402
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: iceman on July 09, 2018, 09:40:21 PM
Let’s see for how long you will dodge the reports from your imam.

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ وَ عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ سَهْلِ بْنِ زِيَادٍ جَمِيعاً عَنِ ابْنِ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنِ الْعَلَاءِ بْنِ رَزِينٍ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ مُسْلِمٍ قَالَ سَأَلْتُ أَبَا جَعْفَرٍ ع عَنِ الْمُرْتَدِّ فَقَالَ مَنْ رَغِبَ عَنِ الْإِسْلَامِ وَ كَفَرَ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ ص بَعْدَ إِسْلَامِهِ فَلَا تَوْبَةَ لَهُ وَ قَدْ وَجَبَ قَتْلُهُ وَ بَانَتْ مِنْهُ امْرَأَتُهُ وَ يُقْسَمُ مَا تَرَكَ عَلَى وُلْدِهِ

From Muhammad bin Muslim said: That I said Abaa Ja`far (عليه السلام) about the apostate (murtad). So he (عليه السلام) said: “Whoever turns away from Islaam, and disbelieves in what Allaah has revealed to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) after being a Muslim, there is no repentance for him, and it is waajib (obligatory) to kill him, and his wife becomes a stranger to him, and his legacy be divided among his children.” Source:
1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 256, hadeeth # 1
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan Kal-SaHeeH (Good like an Authentic (hadeeth))
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg. 396



مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنِ الْعَمْرَكِيِّ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ النَّيْسَابُورِيِّ عَنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ جَعْفَرٍ عَنْ أَخِيهِ أَبِي الْحَسَنِ ع قَالَ سَأَلْتُهُ عَنْ مُسْلِمٍ تَنَصَّرَ قَالَ يُقْتَلُ وَ لَا يُسْتَتَابُ قُلْتُ فَنَصْرَانِيٌّ أَسْلَمَ ثُمَّ ارْتَدَّ عَنِ الْإِسْلَامِ قَالَ يُسْتَتَابُ فَإِنْ رَجَعَ وَ إِلَّا قُتِلَ

From `Alee bin Ja`far from his brother Abee Al-Hasan (عليه السلام) said: I asked him (عليه السلام) about a Muslim who becomes a Christian. He (عليه السلام) said: “He (should be) killed, and no repentance from him” I said: “What about a Christian who becomes Muslim then Apostates from Islaam?” He (عليه السلام) said: “He is asked to repent. And if he returns (to Islaam that is okay), or otherwise he is killed”
Source:
1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 257, hadeeth # 10
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Muwaththaq (Reliable)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg. 400


عَنِ الْإِسْلَامِ وَ جَحَدَ مُحَمَّداً ص نُبُوَّتَهُ وَ كَذَّبَهُ فَإِنَّ دَمَهُ مُبَاحٌ لِكُلِّ مَنْ سَمِعَ ذَلِكَ مِنْهُ وَ امْرَأَتَهُ بَائِنَةٌ مِنْهُ يَوْمَ ارْتَدَّ فَلَا تَقْرَبْهُ وَ يُقْسَمُ مَالُهُ عَلَى وَرَثَتِهِ وَ تَعْتَدُّ امْرَأَتُهُ [بَعْدُ] عِدَّةَ الْمُتَوَفَّى عَنْهَا زَوْجُهَا وَ عَلَى الْإِمَامِ أَنْ يَقْتُلَهُ وَ لَا يَسْتَتِيبَهُ

From `Ammaar Al-SaabaaTee said: I hear Abaa `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) he (عليه السلام) said: “Every Muslim amongst the Muslimeen who apostates from Islaam, and denies Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) prophecy and (call) him (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) a liar. His blood is allowed (to kill) whoever hears that from him. And his wife baa’inah (?) from the day of apostasy, and she should not go near him. And his wealth is divided amongst his heirs and his wife invokes upon herself `iddah of the death of her husband. And it is upon Imaam (leader) that he kills him, and does not ask for repentance”
Source:
1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 257-258, hadeeth # 11
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg. 400



عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ سَالِمٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع أَنَّهُ سَأَلَ عَمَّنْ شَتَمَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ص فَقَالَ يَقْتُلُهُ الْأَدْنَى فَالْأَدْنَى قَبْلَ أَنْ يَرْفَعَهُ إِلَى الْإِمَامِ

From Hishaam bin Saalim from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) That he was asked about one who abuses the Messenger of Allaah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) So he (عليه السلام) said: “He is to be killed, for the lowest of the low (rebuke) before he is taken to the Imaam”
Source:
1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 259, hadeeth # 21
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg



حدثني محمد بن قولويه، قال حدثني سعد بن عبد الله، قال حدثنا يعقوب بن يزيد و محمد بن عيسى، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن هشام بن سالم، قال : سمعت أبا عبد الله (عليه السلام) يقول و هو يحدث أصحابه بحديث عبد الله بن سبإ و ما ادعى من الربوبية في أمير المؤمنين علي بن أبي طالب، فقال إنه لما ادعى ذلك فيه استتابه أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) فأبى أن يتوب فأحرقه بالنار.
From Hishaam bin Saalim said: I heard from Abaa `Abd  Allaah (عليه السلام)  and he said: “And he narrated from his companions the narration of `Abd  Allaah bin Sabaa’ and he called (to people) the lordship/divinity of Ameer Al-Mumineen `Alee bin Abee Taalib (عليه السلام). So he (عليه السلام) said: That Ameer Al-Mu’mineen ordered him to repent, but he refused. Then Ali let him burn in fire."
Source:
1.     Al-Kashee, Rijaal Al-Kashee, pg. 107, hadeeth # 171



عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ سَالِمٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ أَتَى قَوْمٌ أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ع فَقَالُوا السَّلَامُ عَلَيْكَ يَا رَبَّنَا فَاسْتَتَابَهُمْ فَلَمْ يَتُوبُوا فَحَفَرَ لَهُمْ حَفِيرَةً وَ أَوْقَدَ فِيهَا نَاراً وَ حَفَرَ حَفِيرَةً أُخْرَى إِلَى جَانِبِهَا وَ أَفْضَى مَا بَيْنَهُمَا فَلَمَّا لَمْ يَتُوبُوا أَلْقَاهُمْ فِي الْحَفِيرَةِ وَ أَوْقَدَ فِي الْحَفِيرَةِ الْأُخْرَى [نَاراً] حَتَّى مَاتُوا
A group came to Ameer Al-Mu’mineen (عليه السلام), and they said: “Assalaamu `Alayka (Peace be upon you), O our Lord (rabbanaa)! So he asked for their repentance, but they did not repent. So he dug a ditch for them and lit a fire in it and dug a ditch to its other side and conveyed between them. So when they did not repent he threw them in the ditch and lit in the other ditch until they died.
Source:
1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 258-259, hadeeth # 18
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg. 401


Punishment for Intentionally Breaking Your Fast for Three Days


عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ يُونُسَ عَنْ أَبِي بَصِيرٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ مَنْ أُخِذَ فِي شَهْرِ رَمَضَانَ وَ قَدْ أَفْطَرَ فَرُفِعَ إِلَى الْإِمَامِ يُقْتَلُ فِي الثَّالِثَةِ

“Whoever is caught in the month of RamaDaan and he is breaking (his fast), he is taken to the Imaam, and he is killed in the third (offense)”
Source:
1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 258, hadeeth # 12
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Muwaththaq (Reliable)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg. 401


ابْنُ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ سَالِمٍ عَنْ بُرَيْدٍ الْعِجْلِيِّ قَالَ سُئِلَ أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ ع عَنْ رَجُلٍ شَهِدَ عَلَيْهِ شُهُودٌ أَنَّهُ أَفْطَرَ مِنْ شَهْرِ رَمَضَانَ ثَلَاثَةَ أَيَّامٍ فَقَالَ يُسْأَلُ هَلْ عَلَيْكَ فِي إِفْطَارِكَ إِثْمٌ فَإِنْ قَالَ لَا فَإِنَّ عَلَى الْإِمَامِ أَنْ يَقْتُلَهُ وَ إِنْ هُوَ قَالَ نَعَمْ فَإِنَّ عَلَى الْإِمَامِ أَنْ يَنْهَكَهُ ضَرْباً

From Burayd Al-`Ijlee said: Aboo Ja`far (عليه السلام) was asked about a man who witnesses upon him (say) they witness that he broke (his fast) from the Month of RamaDaan three days. So he (عليه السلام) said: “Ask him: ‘Do you (belief) that breaking (your fast) is a sin?’ And if he says: “No”. It is upon the Imaam (leader) that he kills him, and if he says “Yes”, then it is upon the Imaam that he strikes him hard (?)”
Source:
1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 259, hadeeth # 20
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg. 402

"Let’s see for how long you will dodge the reports from your Imams"

I don't dodge anything. 'Reports from my Imams' are you exactly sure about this. You're 100% certain that these reports are accurate and exact. There are many other things in the books you've mentioned that also come from the same Imams, do you believe them to be exactly true and accurate as the reports you've mentioned.

The Ahle Sunah label some books as authentic and some as extremely authentic for example about Sahih Bukhari  it is said that this is 'SAHIH BUKHARI BAAD AZ KITHAB E BARI" despite that if I give you certain reports will you blindly accept them. Will you take them at face value. Well you should because of how you feel, say and claim about Sahih Bukhari.

Now about the reports that you've so kindly put forward, any backing from the Qur'an over Capital Punishment? Any indication from the Qur'an what so ever. Or do you seem to have a BIG PROBLEM in me asking you this.

Well I'd like to know and examine the authenticity and accuracy of these reports. Not about what the Imams said but about the reports. After all they're reports. Do you have a problem with this. What's the irritation about.
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: Hani on July 10, 2018, 12:35:31 AM
Oh dear Lord haha...

Okay, and are you more qualified than al-Majlisi so you can examine the authenticity of these reports?

Why do you think he graded them as authentic?

Please give us a layout of your plan in how you will proceed to verify the authenticity of these reports.
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: iceman on July 10, 2018, 02:15:53 PM
Oh dear Lord haha...

Okay, and are you more qualified than al-Majlisi so you can examine the authenticity of these reports?

Why do you think he graded them as authentic?

Please give us a layout of your plan in how you will proceed to verify the authenticity of these reports.

Hellow there, nice of you to join us. Lets put it to you then.

Malik bin Nuwayrah and his tribe were accused of not paying Zakah, he was accused of being Munkar e Zakah. Because of this he along with his tribe were accused of apostasy and was killed along with men from his tribe and community.

Now the question is if someone refuses to pay or give Zakah then can the Caliph/ruler of the thime force them. And if they refuse then are they subject to the death penalty. Just as simple as that.

Now what do we do here or should we do in a very serious and important issue and matter as this. It's not an ordinary matter,. It's absolutely obvious that we're going to refer it to the Qur'an.

According to the Ahle Sunah ruler/Caliph of the time is the Ulul Amre. Remember the Ulul Amre verse. Does it jog your memory. What are we told to by Allah himself, if we differ among ourselves on or in anything. REFER IT BACK TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER. 

We're talking about can we force people to give Zakah and are they subject to capital punishment if they refuse to pay or give Zakah. Is Zakah something you give or something you have to hand over.

Now when it comes to hadiths or narrations it is said that this is Qavi and that is Za'eef  (strong and weak), or we accept this hadith or narration but we don't accept that. So the main and top source is obviously the QUR'AN. Any indication from the Qur'an regarding this matter.

This is exactly what the gents are running from. Since you've so kindly made an effort and taken out time, bismillah. Would you like to join in. Lets see if you can make a difference and move the discussion forward.

Or would you also like to accuse and abuse me, insult and humiliate me and my mother and make fun of us? Mmm!
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: Hani on July 13, 2018, 08:24:49 AM
Duuuude how does your paragraph above answer my questions?

Please give a straightforward answer to my three direct questions above, no need to write a novel, you aint winning any awards for writing skills.


As for the wars of apostasy, `Ali participated in them as he clearly says in Nahj-ul-Balaghah:

ولا يخطر ببالي أن العرب تزعج هذا الأمر من بعده صلى الله عليه وآله عن أهل بيته، ولا أنهم منحوه عني من بعده، فما راعني إلا انثيال الناس على فلان (1) يبايعونه، فأمسكت يدي (2) حتى رأيت راجعة الناس قد رجعت عن الاسلام يدعون إلى محق دين محمد صلى الله عليه وآله، فخشيت إن لم أنصر الاسلام وأهله أن أرى فيه ثلما (3) أو هدما تكون المصيبة به علي أعظم من فوت ولايتكم التي إنما هي متاع أيام قلائل يزول منها ما كان كما يزول السراب، أو كما يتقشع السحاب، فنهضت في تلك الأحداث حتى زاح الباطل وزهق، واطمأن الدين وتنهنه

If your next post isn't an answer I may not bother reading it.
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: iceman on July 13, 2018, 07:58:41 PM
Duuuude how does your paragraph above answer my questions?

Please give a straightforward answer to my three direct questions above, no need to write a novel, you aint winning any awards for writing skills.


As for the wars of apostasy, `Ali participated in them as he clearly says in Nahj-ul-Balaghah:

ولا يخطر ببالي أن العرب تزعج هذا الأمر من بعده صلى الله عليه وآله عن أهل بيته، ولا أنهم منحوه عني من بعده، فما راعني إلا انثيال الناس على فلان (1) يبايعونه، فأمسكت يدي (2) حتى رأيت راجعة الناس قد رجعت عن الاسلام يدعون إلى محق دين محمد صلى الله عليه وآله، فخشيت إن لم أنصر الاسلام وأهله أن أرى فيه ثلما (3) أو هدما تكون المصيبة به علي أعظم من فوت ولايتكم التي إنما هي متاع أيام قلائل يزول منها ما كان كما يزول السراب، أو كما يتقشع السحاب، فنهضت في تلك الأحداث حتى زاح الباطل وزهق، واطمأن الدين وتنهنه

If your next post isn't an answer I may not bother reading it.

Subhanallah, if this is the attitude and behaviour of mods/admins then what can one expect from the common folk on this site. You turn up out of the blue and all of a sudden you expect and demand. Wow. You've forgotten that I'm a SHIA so awards, merits or anything as such is absolutely out of the question. I don't expect you to answer, address or touch on anything I say because I know you need to keep yourself safe and secure just like the others. I know by now what you guys need to avoid and stay clear of because you'll get stuck.

Now lets play it your way. How does this sound, STRAIGHTFORWARD answer to your THREE DIRECT QUESTIONS is coming up next. HAPPY?

Thanks for joining us. Stay tuned.
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: iceman on July 13, 2018, 08:36:17 PM
:As for the wars of apostasy, `Ali participated in them as he clearly says in Nahj-ul-Balaghah:

ولا يخطر ببالي أن العرب تزعج هذا الأمر من بعده صلى الله عليه وآله عن أهل بيته، ولا أنهم منحوه عني من بعده، فما راعني إلا انثيال الناس على فلان (1) يبايعونه، فأمسكت يدي (2) حتى رأيت راجعة الناس قد رجعت عن الاسلام يدعون إلى محق دين محمد صلى الله عليه وآله، فخشيت إن لم أنصر الاسلام وأهله أن أرى فيه ثلما (3) أو هدما تكون المصيبة به علي أعظم من فوت ولايتكم التي إنما هي متاع أيام قلائل يزول منها ما كان كما يزول السراب، أو كما يتقشع السحاب، فنهضت في تلك الأحداث حتى زاح الباطل وزهق، واطمأن الدين وتنهنه"

A very straightforward answer. We're not talking about the wars of apostasy. In fact we ain't talking about any war at all. Please read and look into what is being discussed and why rather than just jumping in blindly without any indication and thought.

I'll still comment on what you've said.
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: iceman on July 13, 2018, 10:44:07 PM
Oh dear Lord haha...

Okay, and are you more qualified than al-Majlisi so you can examine the authenticity of these reports?

Why do you think he graded them as authentic?

Please give us a layout of your plan in how you will proceed to verify the authenticity of these reports.

And here is a very STRAIGHTFORWARD answer to your three questions.

First question,

"Okay, and are you more qualified than al-Majlisi so you can examine the authenticity of these reports?"

First answer,

Does this mean I have to accept and take everything Al Majlisi says at face value? Do you do the same when it comes to your scholars about every single thing I put forward?

Second question,

"Why do you think he graded them as authentic?"

Second answer,

Who questioned their authenticity?

Third question,

"Please give us a layout of your plan in how you will proceed to verify the authenticity of these reports.

Third answer,

Let me break it down to you all together, the reports that were put forward lets accept them and their authenticity, now would you tell me according to those reports was that the decision of the Caliph based on administration and governance or was it action taken based on Shariah law?
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: muslim720 on July 14, 2018, 06:57:42 AM
Three straight-forward "answers", each ending with a question mark!  I don't blame Iceman.  It is a direct consequence of the type of debate stories narrated in Shi'i mosques.  Fulaan genius debater posed a question and the opponents' arguments perished.  In other words, answer questions by posing questions. 

If only they realized their foolishness; they have to see the ones they inspire get embarrassed over and over again using their tactic.
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: iceman on July 20, 2018, 02:36:32 PM
Those who have the ability to discuss and debate don't look for excuses like you. They engage and move the discussion forward with positive and constructive contribution.

You lot come up with excuses either to halt the conversation or to derail it just to prevent yourselves from getting stuck because you don't really have anything.

You have and adapt the nature and policy to just accuse and abuse. Hit and run is your stance.
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: Hani on July 21, 2018, 06:45:40 AM
Man you're looking stupid now iceboy, if a "straightforward" answer to a question is with another question then you're a bigger dumbass than I thought.

When your Imams ordered people to be put to death, is it Shari`ah law or not? Of course the answer in your Ja`fari religion is that it's Shari`ah law since the Imam is a spokesman of God.
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: iceman on July 21, 2018, 06:32:54 PM
Man you're looking stupid now iceboy, if a "straightforward" answer to a question is with another question then you're a bigger dumbass than I thought.

When your Imams ordered people to be put to death, is it Shari`ah law or not? Of course the answer in your Ja`fari religion is that it's Shari`ah law since the Imam is a spokesman of God.

"Man you're looking stupid now iceboy, if a "straightforward" answer to a question is with another question then you're a bigger DUMBASS than I thought"

😀 I can give you a beautiful response along with what ever else has been said to and about me. But I would just love to keep and maintain the difference.

And I can guarantee you that you aint a DUMBASS. So what are you running from? A hotshot of your calibre and status shouldn't be hesitant and shy. What are you afraid of?

"When your Imams ordered people to be put to death, is it Shari`ah law or not?"

Why don't you tell me hotshot. Did they order people to be executed, and if they did then what was the nature and reason. That's what we need to look at. What you've got within islamic history and what ever has been written and said needs to be examined.

Why are you so afraid of a broader discussion as such. Am I killing you boys with such a discussion and stance? By looking at your behaviours and response, it seems like I am.
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 21, 2018, 07:23:54 PM
what is anyone meant to reply to? you change to ten new questions every post.
you’re just a troll or plain stupid or both.

Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: iceman on July 22, 2018, 01:22:45 AM
what is anyone meant to reply to? you change to ten new questions every post.
you’re just a troll or plain stupid or both.

Still desperately struggling 😀
Title: Re: Challenge to Iceman
Post by: iceman on July 22, 2018, 01:37:40 AM
what is anyone meant to reply to? you change to ten new questions every post.
you’re just a troll or plain stupid or both.

😊 I've been asking the same question over and over and over again. So I don't know where the ten new questions came in from.

Can any Caliph/ruler employ people to collect Zakah and then get those employees to force people to give Zakah and if they refuse then order their beheading?

Where do you see the ten new questions? 😀