TwelverShia.net Forum

Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Quran-Tafseer => Topic started by: Hani on July 26, 2014, 08:16:40 PM

Title: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on July 26, 2014, 08:16:40 PM
Our brother on ShiaChat has posted a challenge by one of our members "who represents us", brother Farid asked to debate concerning the topic of the completeness of the Qur'an in the Sunni and Shia Madhabs.


Here is the link:
http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235024160-debate-on-tahrif-al-quran-between-shia-sunni/ (http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235024160-debate-on-tahrif-al-quran-between-shia-sunni/)


Our challenge is for any Admin/Moderator or popular respectable member from the ShiaChat forums to come and debate us regarding the mentioned topic, registration will be easy and their stay here will be facilitated InshaAllah.


We're awaiting a response from the ShiaChat side, We urge them: Please do not post any nonsense and do not make any useless participation such as the one done by "Ibn al-Shahid" whose reply is of no use to anyone.


We will post the simple logical rules for the debate once we get a serious response.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on July 26, 2014, 08:55:40 PM
@PureEthics,


Please brother, we are not here to watch youtube videos of turbaned Imami lecturers, we know that Imamiyyah have articles which they translated from al-Khu'i's book regarding his beliefs concerning the Qur'an.


Brother Farid believes that the stronger opinion in Imami Tashayyu` states that the Qur'an is actually distorted, and that the majority of Imamiyyah today follow a weaker opinion opposing what was written in their early Hadithi sources.



Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on July 26, 2014, 09:39:29 PM
I see brother PureEthics is showing some enthusiasm, if the Shiachatters are okay with him representing them then I see him as a good candidate for discussion?
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on July 27, 2014, 12:48:31 AM
@kbsquare,


Don't wonder, I personally don't follow shiachat at all, and Farid asked for the debate only because he was reading related books a couple of months ago and we recently published an article on authentic Shia narrations declaring Tahreef.


so don't wonder.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on July 27, 2014, 02:00:13 AM
@.equilibrium.


No one reported to anyone nor do we have any slaves on SC spying on your awesome threads nor is anyone the master of anyone else... please, we understand you guys are Imamiyyah but try to keep your conspiracy theories from getting the better of you at this moment.


Now we have a brother called "Ali.20", he also like his brother above seemed enthusiastic and posted a big paragraph, but when asked to debate suddenly he says "I am not a representative of all the Shia and don't want to be" and then he says "I also have a life and not always on the computer".


SubhanAllah the two sentences above speak volumes,


Well please endorse someone for us from your forum who "represents all Shia", since you claimed we're ignorant and incapable, it should be easy to debate a single "Nasibi" who "proved his ignorance".


Farid invited you guys to debate here, why refuse and claim that you only debate on ShiaChat? Is it safety in numbers?


Come debate here, one on one, like a god-fearing man and enough excuses, if you don't like it, someone else better than you will step up, it's not the end of the world bro.

As for Ali.20's accusation that Farid is plagiarizing from Arabic forums and translating, this is incorrect, he was the one who wrote it in Arabic on BahrainForums in the first place.

Allah says:

{O you who have believed, if there comes to you a disobedient one with information, investigate, lest you harm a people out of ignorance and become, over what you have done, regretful.}
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on July 27, 2014, 02:13:02 AM
Shia member .equilibrium.'s excuse for not debating is as follows:


Quote
It's fruitless debating "convinced sunnis". If you're willing to downplay major events such as ghadeer khumm, multiple declerations of ahadith such as manzilah, thaqalayn, the relationship of ayat tatheer and hadith al Kisa, verse 5:55 of wilayah, among others, then you're obviously not debating for the sake of truth, so why bother, it's an exercise in futility.


In other words, it's fruitless debating anyone who isn't Shia, only when we become Shia will Mr..equilibrium. debate us.


You want to debate non-convinced Sunnies? Is it preferable if you debate unqualified Sunnies with shaky beliefs who can't refute your arguments?


We know we're debating "convinced Shias" yet we know it's not fruitless, for exposing the weakness of Imami beliefs will only lead to more people guided to the correct path of truth.

Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on July 27, 2014, 02:16:10 AM
Shia member kbsquare's excuse for not debating is as follows:


Quote
"Palestinians are still dying...do something useful, find a Zionist forum and hold a debate with them"


I just want to show the readers how many excuses we'll get from them just in order to waste time and not have a serious discussion.


ShiaChatters are invited to this debate, it's rude to turn away an invitation, it's only etiquette.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on July 27, 2014, 02:24:39 AM
Shia member PureEthics is too fearful, he claims this is a "game" he says:


Quote
Look at this game they are trying to set up. It is truly laughable. It is nothing but trying to "debate" and find faults and then pose them against the shia as a whole.


Which pretty much means he's afraid we'd make them look bad, so he refuses the debate and calls it a game.


We're only asking for a Shia who actually represents Shias, is this too hard to find on shiachat? or do you not have confidence that the Shia representing you will do well, so instead you say:


Quote
It is nothing but trying to "debate" and find faults and then pose them against the shia as a whole. Not to learn, not to understand each other, not to defend against false accusations, but to be cheap and attack the credibility of a group as a whole.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on July 27, 2014, 02:38:43 AM
@Ali.20


You said:


Quote
Please ignore the Nasibi who is trying to hide in his cave. He found out that he was doomed to be refuted and thus only finishes his anger by saying I would not debate with him. As he might not know it, I am not even 20 years old nor did I ever enroll in an Islamic school or Hawzah. On the other side, he is a sheikh and has multiple accounts on many networks, even an Arabic one on Ahlal Hadith. And plagiarizes from that website along with IslamPort and BahrainForums.


Yes we can tell you're below twenty don't worry, with time you'll mature and become good enough for such debates.


As for the plagiarism issue, we responded in reply#4, check the bottom of it for your response. As for the Farid being a "Shaykh" he's far from it, we're all laypeople on here.


As for the cave business, unlike a certain someone our cave is public, you have been invited to enter and debate as are all your comrades, don't be shy and say we're cowering, the one who's cowering is the one who is scared to enter the "cave".

You finally said:

Quote
Let him refute my paragraph first, not be a derpy kitten.

We're not here to refute random paragraphs from random folks, we've been refuting all your websites on "twelvershia.net" if you haven't noticed and we don't need to bother with a random post in a thread.

We are here to start a respectable, presentable, up to standards academic debate, if you want to participate and accept the challenge, you're welcome.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Farid on July 27, 2014, 02:43:53 AM
@ Brother Ali.20:

Accusations like plagiarism should not be made.

The Bahrainforums post that you are referring to is based upon a research by myself. Refer to the last post:

https://bahrainforums.com/vb/%CD%E6%C7%D1-%C7%E1%C7%CF%ED%C7%E4-%E6%C7%E1%E3%D0%C7%E5%C8/1022300.htm
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Farid on July 27, 2014, 02:54:08 AM
@ Brother Ali.20:

Mashallah, since you have done so well with providing answers to the arguments regarding authentic tahreef narrations, then you have most of your work covered. You should step up since you seem so confident.

@ PureEthics:

The reason why an endorsement is required is simply so that Shiachatters wouldn't call the debate fake like they did several years ago with Walid. It was only around a day or two after the debate started when several Shiachatters announced that he is not a Shi'ee in the first place and that the debate was staged.

Nobody is suggesting that Tashayyu is wrong if a Shi'ee loses a debate. A debate is wanted simply because this discussion and the coming together of ideas and arguments will make matters clearer for objective readers.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on July 27, 2014, 10:25:48 AM
Note: In the video of "Sayyid Husayn al-Qazwini" in which he discusses his father's beliefs and says he doesn't believe in Tahreef, this is an obvious lie to anyone who understands Arabic, there are two or more clips of Murtada al-Qazwini in which he clearly shows that he believes in Tahreef.


But who cares, we're still waiting for an Imami with courage and knowledge and respect, to come forth and debate with our brother one on one, so we can see the truth from the falsehood and so that the people will benefit.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: MuslimK on July 27, 2014, 04:20:44 PM
They sound like little kids
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: RationalDeen on July 27, 2014, 06:19:57 PM
They banned me for a day in the other thread  ;D
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on July 27, 2014, 08:45:26 PM
May Allah help us, we're trying to be patient and polite as opposed to the other side who've badly insulted our members more than once. We will wait and try to remind them every once in a while, maybe a qualified respectable member "who has time" would step up, so we can benefit from his knowledge.


For now we insist the official debate takes place here, this is an invitation, they can accept it or reject it as they please, we've already heard all sorts of excuses.


We hope the "bigger" names on ShiaChat will accept a simple, respectable debate so we can reach the truth, we've heard a lot of them boast throughout the years about their superiority and knowledge, yet when it comes down to it, suddenly we don't hear their voices although we know they've seen the thread.


InshaAllah Khayrun,
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Samynet on July 28, 2014, 02:30:30 AM
@Hani
@Farid
Trust me there is no difference in the Quran of Shiites and Sunnis and according to Shiites Quran is the Saqal e Akbar. There are some week narrations against Quran Tehrif from Sunnis and Shiites both sides and which are mostly not authentic and rejected by most of the Scholars from both sides.
SO BE UNITED or we will become like Iraq and Palestine very soon.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Samynet on July 28, 2014, 02:32:08 AM
@hani
@farid
Guys unfortunately I have to say our enemy Jews and Christians must be very happy when they find us fighting over history, and ALLAH must be v unhappy....
Which results nothing but a bigger conflicts and divide us more. And the state like Israel, USA and EU kills innocent in Palestine and Iraq and we kept fighting each other on this history.
Guys instead of working on Differences can we work on Similarities which Muslims are facing.
First similarity 1. We have same enemy which are using so called Muslim tools like ISIS and ISIL who are acting totally against Islamic lessons...
CAN WE BE UNITED!! PLEASE!!!
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Kalaam on July 28, 2014, 03:22:07 AM
The Satan is more happy when he looks at the Shias spewing hatred against Sahaba.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on July 29, 2014, 12:35:31 AM
@Samynet,


Seriously, you came here just to give us a political lecture? We may co-exist peacefully with the Rafidhah if they stop spewing nonsense and leave Fitnah, but unity with them is impossible, we only unite with moderate Shia which are barely a small minority of the Imamiyyah alive today.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on July 29, 2014, 12:39:18 AM
There's a Shia member on SC his name is TheIslamHistory


Instead of accepting the debate respectfully, like an academic seeking truth, instead he started commenting on the banner of our forum and the graphic design, check it out:


Quote
When we go on the so called website, we see the logo of "Allah" of the Iranian flag. I ask you, do you and your group that you affiliate your self with, have any form of manners? do you still embed in your mind, that Iran and its leader are all disbelievers? Do you think by posting such, you call your self rational? I doubt that what you read about us, you surely do not read twice, as long as it supports your views that your desire with your majority.


Common bro, leave the logos and colors and Iranian propaganda, and come discuss Tahreef with us here, no one will eat you.

Then you say:
Quote
Instead of making such accusations, why not ask them to take down the Iranian Icon?

Why? are you ashamed of the Iranian icon? You here to answer our challenge or discuss the images and color themes of the forum?
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: HughSlaman on July 29, 2014, 12:42:32 AM
@hani
@farid
Guys unfortunately I have to say our enemy Jews and Christians must be very happy when they find us fighting over history, and ALLAH must be v unhappy....
Which results nothing but a bigger conflicts and divide us more. And the state like Israel, USA and EU kills innocent in Palestine and Iraq and we kept fighting each other on this history.
Guys instead of working on Differences can we work on Similarities which Muslims are facing.
First similarity 1. We have same enemy which are using so called Muslim tools like ISIS and ISIL who are acting totally against Islamic lessons...
CAN WE BE UNITED!! PLEASE!!!

To be united, we must first agree on basic truths. That means we must learn to be objective and scientific in our investigation of what did or did not happen over a thousand years ago, and not be swayed by emotionally charged slogans like "CAN WE BE UNITED!! PLEASE!!!".

You are using the same funny tactics Shia propagandists use all the time: you appeal to the desire for unity and the fight against a common enemy etc. And all of this is irrelevant when it comes to learning accurately what the truth is about our religion (assuming you are serious about the desire for unity in the first place).

In any case, we have seen what happens to Sunnis in places like Iran, which has been preaching "unity" since Khomeini, and we know what your scholars have written about the importance of using taqiyya to win the confidence of Sunnis.

We know the call to unity is nothing more than a cover for Shia da'wa activities (even if you personally are sincere and ignorant of this).

So please focus on the academic discussions which are the subject of this forum, and drop these irrelevant appeals to unity.



Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on July 29, 2014, 12:46:11 AM
Imami member IbnSohan says in reply to our respectful academic challenge:


Quote
They are the cyber army of Satan, there is no wonder about their actions. What's worth noting though is that they seem to have increased their activity recently with amateur debate bots who do not know Arabic. I guess that the rest were sent to IS, news says that ISIS is holding a massive Jihad Nikah wedding in these days of Eid Alfitr.


Unfortunately we don't follow political news nor are we interested in your weddings, and you're wrong both me and the brother issuing the challenge are Arabs and understand Arabic perfectly well.


So please leave whatever armed groups you wish to discuss in ShiaChat, we don't care about them, and ACCEPT THE CHALLENGE.


So far SC members have only uttered insults and accusations, none of them accepted our simple plain challenge.


That's the standard there I guess.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on July 29, 2014, 12:58:47 AM
For the brother talking about Farid's qualifications, it is incorrect what some claimed on SC, that he is a "Shaykh" nor is he even a "Talib `Ilm" which is a student of religious sciences, Farid is a layperson with more knowledge in certain fields at this point simply because of social situation which pushed him to take an interest in Tashayyu`.


The same applies to me, there are no scholars or students of knowledge here, and I'm sure none of you guys claim to be scholars either.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on July 29, 2014, 12:57:01 PM
I just went to see if anything new happened to our thread on ShiaChat, seems there is a debate going on there and Nader is taking part in it.


Any of the brothers reading this thread, please ask Nader Zaveri, since he is debating Tahreef on ShiaChat already, tell him he is invited to discuss Tahreef here with us.



Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on July 29, 2014, 01:54:19 PM
ShiaChat members axiom and _twelver nominate Nader Zaveri for debate, we gladly accept Nader since he is obviously the most rational and learned member of ShiaChat.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on August 02, 2014, 10:36:58 AM
Brother Farid asked Abul Hussain Hassani to post this message on ShiaChat:


Quote
Thank you.
 
If Admins of Shiachat are ok with that then the debate can take place on both Forums.
 
The debate would be in two parts. The first part on this forum. The second part on Twelvershia.net forum.
 
On this forum, Shiachat,  the Shia Position on Tahrif will be debated.
On the TwelverShia.net Forum, the Sunni position on Tahrif will be debated.
 
Hope that is fair now.
 
I would like to remind everyone again: the debate challenge expires in 72 hours.
 
May Allah guide us.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on August 03, 2014, 09:22:50 AM
I do not comprehend what is happening on ShiaChat anymore, we give them a much better offer... YET NO ONE ACCEPTS!? What's going on here??? Why are we being asked to debate Allahyari and Yasir? This is indeed odd and makes no sense.


Look, we don't care WHO it is, as long as the person is accepted by the majority of Shia, let them join the threads and accept the debate.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: HughSlaman on August 03, 2014, 09:35:59 AM
ShiaChat members axiom and _twelver nominate Nader Zaveri for debate, we gladly accept Nader since he is obviously the most rational and learned member of ShiaChat.

He is evidently not going to accept though.
For someone who sounds so rational, it is mysterious that he continues to be Shia.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: HughSlaman on August 03, 2014, 09:38:58 AM
I do not comprehend what is happening on ShiaChat anymore, we give them a much better offer... YET NO ONE ACCEPTS!? What's going on here??? Why are we being asked to debate Allahyari and Yasir? This is indeed odd and makes no sense.


Look, we don't care WHO it is, as long as the person is accepted by the majority of Shia, let them join the threads and accept the debate.

They have locked the relevant thread....probably eliciting a huge collective sigh of relief from people who know they have nothing to say in a debate.
I say we try to contact Toyib; he seems to be the type who is up for a debate.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on August 03, 2014, 10:21:55 AM
ShiaChat members axiom and _twelver nominate Nader Zaveri for debate, we gladly accept Nader since he is obviously the most rational and learned member of ShiaChat.

He is evidently not going to accept though.
For someone who sounds so rational, it is mysterious that he continues to be Shia.


One of his parents was a Shia, and he's emotionally attached to these beliefs, he thinks he can "clean house" by applying Hadith sciences.


Im sure by now he realized, that he can't get rid of most deviance as it is found in their books with authentic chains.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on August 03, 2014, 10:22:59 AM
I do not comprehend what is happening on ShiaChat anymore, we give them a much better offer... YET NO ONE ACCEPTS!? What's going on here??? Why are we being asked to debate Allahyari and Yasir? This is indeed odd and makes no sense.


Look, we don't care WHO it is, as long as the person is accepted by the majority of Shia, let them join the threads and accept the debate.

They have locked the relevant thread....probably eliciting a huge collective sigh of relief from people who know they have nothing to say in a debate.
I say we try to contact Toyib; he seems to be the type who is up for a debate.


But Toyib and/or his friends are on SC I assume, we never heard their voices.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on August 03, 2014, 10:42:17 AM
Farid says he shall extend this challenge to Yasir al-Habeeb and AllahYari, if any member of SC can please contact them and have them register on our forum for the debate.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Invoker on August 03, 2014, 01:40:20 PM
Invoker (me) & RationalDeen have been banned on SC... can u see the level of tolerance of the shi'ites?
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: MuslimK on August 03, 2014, 03:27:59 PM
Invoker (me) & RationalDeen have been banned on SC... can u see the level of tolerance of the shi'ites?

سلام علیکم

So they can call Sahaba 'homosexuals' and other disgusting things they can get away with that but if a Sunni member on Shiachat even try to defend Muawiyah or posts a video of their Ayatollah Bahjat he gets banned. This is pure Rafidism.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on August 03, 2014, 05:15:35 PM
We guarantee any Shia who comes here for debate, we won't ban you like the ShiaChat mods banned the Sunnies of ShiaChat, even if you attack and criticize the Sahabah.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: HughSlaman on August 03, 2014, 05:20:00 PM
Farid says he shall extend this challenge to Yasir al-Habeeb and AllahYari, if any member of SC can please contact them and have them register on our forum for the debate.

Those who are in the UK can contact al-Habeeb's office directly as well and invite them here for an online debate:

If you would like to contact the office of Sheikh al-Habib in London by telephone please do so on one of the following telephone numbers:

Tel: 00441753663004 - 00441753663103 - 00447553457777
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Umar bin Khattab on August 03, 2014, 06:05:09 PM
If shias chose to hide like their awaited Mehdi in the cellar, then this will not stop us from exposing their true beliefs regarding the Qur'an. We will continue till the end, until every innocent sunni and shia learns the real beliefs of 12er shias.

PureEthic tried a cheap shot to defend ayatullah Murtaza al-Qazwini, here is the relpy to the video of his stupid son.

http://youtu.be/Z2eVWS4JLu4 (http://youtu.be/Z2eVWS4JLu4)
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: RationalDeen on August 05, 2014, 07:26:29 AM
I got banned for simply pointing out, one of their greatest scholars of the past century, could not read fatiha properly. If its true, i dont see why the ban ???
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hadrami on August 05, 2014, 09:30:25 AM
I got banned for simply pointing out, one of their greatest scholars of the past century, could not read fatiha properly. If its true, i dont see why the ban ???



A shia nickname Rasul, insulted sunni khalifa (according to mod note) and his comment only got edited, but you point the obvious that ayatula can't read al fatiha got banned. There are 2 different rules there for sunni & shii

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235024160-debate-on-tahrif-al-quran-between-shia-sunni/?p=2725972 (http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235024160-debate-on-tahrif-al-quran-between-shia-sunni/?p=2725972)
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Farid on August 05, 2014, 02:38:36 PM
Fun stuff.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hadrami on August 22, 2014, 09:50:14 AM
i see nader is here now. maybe it means he accepts your challenge  :P
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on August 22, 2014, 11:52:04 AM
i see nader is here now. maybe it means he accepts your challenge  :P


He dislikes debates, so that won't be happening. The only chance you have is to convince him personally that this is beneficial.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Ameen on December 13, 2014, 07:35:56 PM
May Allah help us, we're trying to be patient and polite as opposed to the other side who've badly insulted our members more than once. We will wait and try to remind them every once in a while, maybe a qualified respectable member "who has time" would step up, so we can benefit from his knowledge.


For now we insist the official debate takes place here, this is an invitation, they can accept it or reject it as they please, we've already heard all sorts of excuses.


We hope the "bigger" names on ShiaChat will accept a simple, respectable debate so we can reach the truth, we've heard a lot of them boast throughout the years about their superiority and knowledge, yet when it comes down to it, suddenly we don't hear their voices although we know they've seen the thread.


InshaAllah Khayrun,

Oh,I would definitely like a shot at the title. So what do you say??? It's your call.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on December 13, 2014, 08:47:10 PM
This is Farid's thread, it's up to him, depends if he judges that you're qualified or not since he was only asking for a qualified debater.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Ameen on December 14, 2014, 12:12:12 AM
This is Farid's thread, it's up to him, depends if he judges that you're qualified or not since he was only asking for a qualified debater.

I have no problem what so ever with that. If he's not up to it then I guess I'm not qualified.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Taha on December 14, 2014, 02:56:36 AM
Tahreef should be a Shia-Shia debate lol. Sunna don't believe in tahreef. Some Shia do and some don't. I certainly do.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on December 14, 2014, 10:47:49 AM
Ok Mr Shia, please tell us why you believe in Tahreef al-Qur'an and what type of Tahreef do you believe took place in Allah's book?
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: silentkiller on January 01, 2015, 09:41:50 PM
hani what do you say abou the person who believes in tehreef e Quran what are your views about him what do you think is he a kaifr? explain plz
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on January 01, 2015, 10:05:48 PM
hani what do you say abou the person who believes in tehreef e Quran what are your views about him what do you think is he a kaifr? explain plz


You as a Shia will obviously ask this question, you'd expect the Sunni to reply "Kafir!", then you copy/paste a text of a Hadith that shows that let's say Ibn Mas`oud used to erase the Mu`awidhatayn from his Mushaf, or any text along those lines, then you'd be like: "See you just made Takfeer on ibn Mas`oud."


It is at that point which you will receive an answer that you've never heard of and you will open a door to a topic that will confuse yourself and most readers who don't know anything about the Qur'an.


The believe in Tahreef-ul-Qur'an which is usually attributed to Shia is as follows:


`Ali's name and his appointment as leader was never mentioned in the Qur'an, nothing about his ten children nor the 12th Imam was ever mentioned as well. Coincidentally, those responsible for collecting the Suhuf were Abu Bakr and `Umar, then the one responsible for copying it in a book format and spreading it in the lands is `Uthman, these three men are enemies of `Ali according to the Shia and this is how this belief emerged and spread among Rafidah in the old ages.


Narrations were fabricated by Rafidah, accusing the Sahabah of conspiring and deleting from the Qur'an things to do with `Ali and his household, also things to do with the identities of the hypocrites.


Now most Rafidah today don't believe this (although some still do), yet we say that should anyone hold this belief, that Allah's book was tampered with by the hypocrites and the guidance of Allah didn't reach us, this the Muslims agree that it is Kufr.


Farid can add his opinion if he wishes to this.

Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Optimus Prime on January 01, 2015, 10:16:06 PM
Yes, Farid, please do.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: silentkiller on January 01, 2015, 10:33:13 PM
mr hani you just started the debate topic of tehreef and i asked you a simple question, but you cannot answer this simple question?and you are here for the debate?along with that you are accepting that you have narrations on tehrif in your books are you debator or a cartoon?
did i said any thing about abdullah ibn masud now?why r u getting scared to answer this simple question
plz answer what i asked thanks!
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on January 01, 2015, 11:26:32 PM
mr hani you just started the debate topic of tehreef and i asked you a simple question, but you cannot answer this simple question?and you are here for the debate?along with that you are accepting that you have narrations on tehrif in your books are you debator or a cartoon?
did i said any thing about abdullah ibn masud now?why r u getting scared to answer this simple question
plz answer what i asked thanks!


I believe it was Farid who issued the challenge and I just addressed the posts of ShiaChat on this thread.


Regarding the simple question I answered it in my previous post and if you cannot find it then this is a very bad sign that you are unqualified to debate in the first place.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: silentkiller on January 02, 2015, 06:18:02 AM
mr hani you are a pure coward, i just asked you a simple question what is ur belief on the person who believes Quran to be incomplete with tehreef

is he kafir? answer yes or no

instead of answering you just posted a long sentences which is not answer of my question

you still have time plz answer and ask mr farid urf DeBateR rehmatullah alay too what is his belief on the person who believes Quran to be incomplete with tehreef

is he kafir? answer yes or no
?
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hadrami on January 02, 2015, 06:20:37 AM
mr hani you are a pure coward, i just asked you a simple question what is ur belief on the person who believes Quran to be incomplete with tehreef

is he kafir? answer yes or no

instead of answering you just posted a long sentences which is not answer of my question

you still have time plz answer and ask mr farid urf DeBateR rehmatullah alay too what is his belief on the person who believes Quran to be incomplete with tehreef

is he kafir? answer yes or no
?

Now most Rafidah today don't believe this (although some still do), yet we say that should anyone hold this belief, that Allah's book was tampered with by the hypocrites and the guidance of Allah didn't reach us, this the Muslims agree that it is Kufr.


Farid can add his opinion if he wishes to this.

He did answer you. Look at the bold part.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: silentkiller on January 02, 2015, 06:30:31 AM
so this is the answer that Muslims agree its the kuffar

for believing Quran to be incomplete? hani and hadarmi?

your answer is  if a person believes in Quran to be incomplete is a KAFIR right?
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hadrami on January 02, 2015, 06:58:25 AM
what is it about shia that we have to repeat the same thing over and over. Reread what Hani wrote, its not his opinion, its Muslim belief. Allah SWT said He will protect it and then you say it didn't happen. What does it make you?
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: silentkiller on January 02, 2015, 07:25:30 AM
MASHAALLAH HADARMI MRFARID REHMATULLAH ALAYH THE DEBATER AND HANI I CONGRATULATE YOU FOR MAKING HAZRAT UMAR A NON MUSLIM KAFIR BECAUSE IT WAS YOUR BELOVED CALIPH HAZRAT UMAR WHO HAD THE BELIEF OF TEHREEF E QURAN TILL END OF HIS LIFE HE WANTED TO WRITE SOME VERSES IN HOLYQURAN FOR MAKING TEHREEF BECAUSE OF HIS CORRUPT BELIEF


 Malik related to me that Yahya ibn Said heard Said ibn al-Musayyab say, "When umar ibn al-Khattab came from Mina, he made his camel kneel at al-Abtah, and then he gathered a pile of small stones and cast his cloak over them and dropped to the ground. Then he raised his hands to the sky and said, 'O Allah! I have become old and my strength has weakened. My flock is scattered. Take me to You with nothing missed out and without having neglected anything.' Then he went to Madina and addressed the people. He said, 'People! Sunan have been laid down for you. Obligations have been placed upon you. You have been left with a clear way unless you lead people astray right and left.' He struck one of his hands on the other and then said, 'Take care lest you destroy the ayat of stoning so that one will say, "We do not find two hadds in the Book of Allah." The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, stoned, so we have stoned. By He in Whose Hand my self is, had it not been that people would say that umar ibn al-Khattab has added to the Book of Allah ta-ala, we would have written it, "The full-grown man and the full-grown woman, stone them absolutely." We have certainly recited that.'" Malik said, "Yahya ibn Said said Said ibn al-Musayyab said, 'Dhu'l-Hijja had not passed before umar was murdered, may Allah have mercy on him.' " Yahya said that he had heard Malik say, "As for his words 'The full-grown man and the full-grown woman' he meant, 'The man and the woman who have been married, stone them absolutely.' "  (Book #41, Hadith #41.1.10) MALIK MUWATA
SUBHANALLAH
HAZRAT UMAR IS A KAFIR WHO DIDNT EVEN KNEW WHAT HANI MRFARID THE DEBATER REHMATULLAHALAY AND HADARMI KNOW THAT ALLAH SWT HAVE PROTECTED THIS BOOK HOLYQURAN IT CANNOT BE EDITED BUT HE HZRAT UMAR STILL WANTED TO ADD THE HOLYBOOK TILL END OF HIS LIFE MASHAALLAH  8)
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Taha on January 02, 2015, 08:08:24 AM
So the Sunni scholars that believed in tahreef are kuffar too?  Or nah?
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Husayn on January 02, 2015, 12:00:14 PM
So the Sunni scholars that believed in tahreef are kuffar too?  Or nah?

Anyone who believes in tahreef is a kaffir.

Now, go ahead and demonstrate to us an example of respected Sunni scholars believing in tahrif.

Hint: not nasqh, tahreef.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: silentkiller on January 02, 2015, 12:03:03 PM
brother i have proven hazrat umar => believing in tehreef e Quran

and you declared him kafir MASHAALLAH

i quoted the narration and you are asking to quote the scholar?we will quote you the scholars too but plz tell me

do your scholars know better than hazrat umar?  8) prooves ahlsunnah are the one believe in tehreef of HolyQuran as per teachings of their beloved caliph 8) so please issue the fatwa of kufar against HAZRAT UMAR first instead of accusing shias 8)
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Husayn on January 02, 2015, 12:05:40 PM
brother i have proven hazrat umar  for believing in tehreef e Quran

and you declared him kafir MASHAALLAH

i quoted the narration and you are asking to quote the scholar?

do your scholars know better than hazrat umar? B-)

You mean tahreef AL-Qur'an?

No buddy, 'Umar ibn al-Khattab (ra) didn't believe in tahreef.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on January 02, 2015, 12:28:58 PM
Malik related to me that Yahya ibn Said heard Said ibn al-Musayyab say, "When umar ibn al-Khattab came from Mina, he made his camel kneel at al-Abtah, and then he gathered a pile of small stones and cast his cloak over them and dropped to the ground. Then he raised his hands to the sky and said, 'O Allah! I have become old and my strength has weakened. My flock is scattered. Take me to You with nothing missed out and without having neglected anything.' Then he went to Madina and addressed the people. He said, 'People! Sunan have been laid down for you. Obligations have been placed upon you. You have been left with a clear way unless you lead people astray right and left.' He struck one of his hands on the other and then said, 'Take care lest you destroy the ayat of stoning so that one will say, "We do not find two hadds in the Book of Allah." The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, stoned, so we have stoned. By He in Whose Hand my self is, had it not been that people would say that umar ibn al-Khattab has added to the Book of Allah ta-ala, we would have written it, "The full-grown man and the full-grown woman, stone them absolutely." We have certainly recited that.'" Malik said, "Yahya ibn Said said Said ibn al-Musayyab said, 'Dhu'l-Hijja had not passed before umar was murdered, may Allah have mercy on him.' " Yahya said that he had heard Malik say, "As for his words 'The full-grown man and the full-grown woman' he meant, 'The man and the woman who have been married, stone them absolutely.' "  (Book #41, Hadith #41.1.10) MALIK MUWATA


This is abrogated according to your leader al-Tusi. `Umar also believed it to be abrogated but he feared the people would stop acting according to the ruling if they no longer see this verse and he didn't add it because in his own words it is not a part of the Qur'an and if he writes it down he'd be adding a Mansoukh verse and the people will never accept this. Also this verse was very popular among the companions and several of them knew it, yet it was not written in Allah's book because they all knew it was abrogated nor was the Qur'an in a book format in `Umar's time anyway.


Don't Shia say that `Ali wrote a book in which he included the abrogated and abrogating verses and the Tafseer on the side? Is this all Tahreef for you guys? I doubt it, so the same applies in this case.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: silentkiller on January 02, 2015, 12:40:39 PM
yes hussayn bro he did he wanted to add some verses in HolyQuran nauzubillah

@Hani

brother i am not asking what tusi said coz what you r writing has nothing to do with this narration
as its abt mighty hzrat umar's belief(and his glorious followers)

fst point is if the verse is abbrogated umar would never say this BY TAKING OATH OF ALLAH SWT
=> By He in Whose Hand my self is, had it not been that people would say that umar ibn al-Khattab has added to the Book of Allah ta-ala, we would have written it

this pure crystal clear umar wanted to add this verse in HOLYQURAN

AS HE SAID would say that umar ibn al-Khattab has added to the Book of Allah ta-ala, we would have written it[/b]

PROOVES => IF PEOPLE DONOT HAVE CRITICIZED UMAR FOR ADDING IN BOOK OF ALLAH SWT UMAR WOULD ADD THIS VERSE IN THE ALLAH'S BOOK nauzubillah!

its clear HAZRAT UMAR WANTED TO WRITE IT IN ALLAH'S BOOK BUT BECAUSE OF PEOPLE'S CRITICIZM HE DIDNT BUT IN REAL HE WANTED TO ADD WHICH HE CLEARS IN NARRATION BY TAKING ALLAH'S OATH THAT HE WANTED TO ADD IN HOLYQURAN nauzubillah!


WHICH IS CLEAR IN NARRATION....IF UMAR DIDNOT BELIEVE IN TEHREEF HE COULD HAVE SIMPLY SAY THIS VERSE IS ABROGATED AND WE WONT WRITE

BUT HERE UMAR IS CLEAR ABOUT HIS BELIEVES THAT HE WANTED TO WRITE THE VERSE IN ALLAH'S BOOK

I m sorry but your explanation is contradictory to your caliph's beliefs...any other person except bogus hani?
who can tell me why hazrat umar wanted to add Allah's book?

why hazrat umar believed in tehreef of HolyQuran?
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Farid on January 03, 2015, 11:49:07 AM
Welcome to the boards brother silentkiller.

The narration that you quoted can only be understood in the light of historical context. You see, it was during the collection of the Quran that Omar told Zaid bin Thabit to not include this verse. This is found in the authentic narration through Katheer bin Al Salt in Musnad Ahmad and Al Sunan Al Kabeer by Al Nasa'ee.

So it makes no sense to accuse Omar of wanting to make Tahreef when he is the original cause for removing an abrogated verse.

Secondly, if one keeps an abrogated verse in the Quran, it is not Tahreef. It is a mistake and it is haram, however, it is still the words of Allah (subhanahu wa taala), and the meaning has not changed.

In this light, we understand that Omar feared the people since such an action would be incorrect, while he didn't have to fear anyone in his original action of not including the verse.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Mythbuster1 on January 03, 2015, 01:41:45 PM
Asalam alaikum brothersbro hani has explained as well as bro farid excellently even I myself WASNT clear on the subject but thanx to the brothers I fully undestand
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: silentkiller on January 03, 2015, 02:15:14 PM
Farid
Bro i wont reply you here coz admin of this forum is foul mouth dishonest and cutt conversations then lock the topics  deleting the comments as mr hani did so on this and another forum so i decided not to post on this forum

i wanted to delete my account due to dishonesty of the admin of this forum
but i dont know why they didnt deleted my account till now

we can continue this debate here and http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235027484-twelvershia-net-website-and-forum-of-cowards/#entry2763560
and i am giving you the reply there before the admin of this forum delete my comments and use fouls against shias and their narrations
please come here so we debate on this narration and tehreef of Quran in light of shia sunni sources
thanks.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on January 03, 2015, 02:22:59 PM
Farid
Bro i wont reply you here coz admin of this forum is foul mouth dishonest and cutt conversations then lock the topics  deleting the comments as mr hani did so on this and another forum so i decided not to post on this forum

i wanted to delete my account due to dishonesty of the admin of this forum
but i dont know why they didnt deleted my account till now

we can continue this debate here and http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235027484-twelvershia-net-website-and-forum-of-cowards/#entry2763560 (http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235027484-twelvershia-net-website-and-forum-of-cowards/#entry2763560)
and i am giving you the reply there before the admin of this forum delete my comments and use fouls against shias and their narrations
please come here so we debate on this narration and tehreef of Quran in light of shia sunni sources
thanks.


You have my guarantee that I won't cut-off your comment and all the other matters you falsely claimed, now stop being a coward.



Also my rudeness is only in reply to yours, as you were the one who wrote:


Quote
if i started posting ahlsunnah beliefs here you guys will start screaming :p


Quote
mr imam ali dont worry please fst tell me are the fatwas of your scholars hujja upon you?
if yes so i start showing the kufar of your forefathers?
2nd donkey narrated in shia book so?where is the chain?the part of hadis is mursal and zaieef
3rd what if i show donkey narrating in your book will you send curse on your face for that?


That's what merits a rude reply.


Then you continued as can be seen here:
http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/various-scandalous-and-corrupt-beliefs-of-twelver-shias/15/


Where you wrote things such as:


"you are loosing your temper because you are a confused coward person who cannot answer please explain"



"why are you are so scared to reply me you said animals speaking in the narration is the fabrication etc pointing towards the narration of alkafi
please come with proove instead of bogus replies"


"plz this time answer like a man instead of behaving like a shy little girl"


"donot worry i can spread the list too of sahih narrations will be quadrible then your bogus copy pastes, which will make you spat on faces of hazrat abu bakr umar usman hz aisha mawia hz abu hurera the glorious father of cats and many other companions+ bukhari muslim etc as per you said"


So basically, you're the last person to talk about rudeness.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: silentkiller on January 03, 2015, 02:28:23 PM
MR HANI you are the one who is coward who locked the threads if you were not a coward you never would use foul mouth and lock the thread to bann me there

so you are the one who banned me not me so you are a coward not i then you deleted my comments
shame on you for lieing
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on January 03, 2015, 02:31:17 PM
MR HANI you are the one who is coward who locked the threads if you were not a coward you never would use foul mouth and lock the thread to bann me there

so you are the one who banned me not me so you are a coward not i then you deleted my comments
shame on you for lieing


I didn't ban you, so you are the liar, if I banned you then how are you posting now?


Also What I copied above is evidence you were rude first not me.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: silentkiller on January 03, 2015, 02:33:25 PM
hani you are so big coward and you are the liar why you locked the thread? who locked the thread? of various scandlous beliefs of shia?

who deleted my comments of this thread?
me or you?

m i the admin or u?
what a shameless liar r u

you banned me of thread so i couldnt post there then deleted my comments of this thread this equals bann shame one you ladyboy coward

Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: silentkiller on January 03, 2015, 02:36:30 PM
you called shias fools then you said shia will spat on their narrations i say you are a shameless liar then i responded you in the way you did and you locked the thread
and delete the comments

so u the one who is rude and locked the thread you filthy low level liar nasbi
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on January 03, 2015, 02:39:21 PM
hani you are so big coward why you locked the thread? who locked the thread? of various scandlous beliefs of shia?

who deleted my comments of this thread?

you banned me of thread so i couldnt post there then deleted my comments of this thread this equals bann shame one you ladyboy coward


I locked the thread because of the language that was being used, also because as I wrote previously on that same thread I do not approve of its contents as they needed revision.


Even on ShiaChat they're making fun of you, look at abu Rumaysah's reply:
http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235027484-twelvershia-net-website-and-forum-of-cowards/#entry2763560 (http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235027484-twelvershia-net-website-and-forum-of-cowards/#entry2763560)
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on January 03, 2015, 02:41:47 PM
you called shias fools then you said shia will spat on their narrations i say you are a shameless liar then i responded you in the way you did and you locked the thread
and delete the comments

so u the one who is rude and locked the thread you filthy low level liar nasbi


Nope, you started it first at post #19 as I said.


The post you'r talking about is #29 (After your rudeness).
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: silentkiller on January 03, 2015, 02:45:32 PM
abu ramysh is sunni not shia nor his comment effects the absurdities and narrations i quoted from your books

and what you said shia will spat on their narrations then i responded you in the way you did i said if i show u your narrations you r going to spat on face of bkr umr usman mawia aisha hfza hurera etc
as per you said

what a garbage debater r u who said if donkey narrates in ahlsunnah book its a miracle if its in shia book its rediculous then you locked the thread to save yourself you couldnt even replied the simple question i was asking lolz

if u were a man u never locked the thread and delete my comments of current thread unlock the thread plz if you are a man and give me in written appology in my indbox that you wont delete my comments and ban me of thread by locking it
thanks.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: silentkiller on January 03, 2015, 02:50:09 PM
hani you accepted that you locked the thread coz the sentence i used was according to what you used to me

you have proven yourself a coward
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: silentkiller on January 03, 2015, 02:58:07 PM
Farid
its clear in the narration hazrat umar didnot said the verse is abrogated, but he clearly explaining it as the part of Allah's book not as the abrogated one
 
otherwise there were other verses too which were abrogated according to ahlsunnah narrations hzrat umar did not named those verses to include but this one with stoning for no reason no sense

which clears hazrat umar wanted to add this verse in holybook....and it is called tehreef what ibn kseer said or nisai contradicts the statement of umar mentioned in the narration
 
hazrat umar is cleared in his words he feared people otherwise he wanted to add in Allah's book...which is called tehreef (note hz umar is taking ALLAH'S OATH that by Allah he would add in Allah's book)

otherwise he could clear we wont add its an abrogated verse which he didnt but he said IF PEOPLE WONT CRITICIZE ME BY Allah I WRITE IT IN QURAN=TEHREEF NAUZUBILLAH
 
 
other thing quote you(farid) yourself said
''Secondly, if one keeps an abrogated verse in the Quran, it is not Tahreef. It is a mistake and it is haram''

you refuted your ownself farid because hazrat umar said
 
IF PEOPLE DONOT HAVE CRITICIZED UMAR FOR ADDING IN BOOK OF Allah SWT, BY Allah SWT, UMAR WOULD ADD THIS VERSE IN THE Allah'S BOOK nauzubillah!

 
means you accepted hazrat umar wanted to do the haraam mistake, coz he said IF PEOPLE DONOT CRITICIZE ME I WRITE IT IN Allah'S BOOK
 
SUCCESSFULLY PROOVE HAZRAT UMAR WANT TO DO HARAM WORK AND TEHREEF IN Allah'S BOOK AS PER YOU SAID.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Farid on January 03, 2015, 03:13:49 PM
Excuse me brother, I am slightly busy now, inshallah I will respond to you later tonight or tomorrow.

To all participants: please calm down so we can have an academic discussion, barak Allah feekum.

Farid
its clear in the narration hazrat umar didnot said the verse is abrogated, but he clearly explaining it as the part of Allah's book not as the abrogated one
 
otherwise there were other verses too which were abrogated according to ahlsunnah narrations hzrat umar did not named those verses to include but this one with stoning for no reason no sense

which clears hazrat umar wanted to add this verse in holybook....and it is called tehreef what ibn kseer said or nisai contradicts the statement of umar mentioned in the narration
 
hazrat umar is cleared in his words he feared people otherwise he wanted to add in Allah's book...which is called tehreef (note hz umar is taking ALLAH'S OATH that by Allah he would add in Allah's book)

otherwise he could clear we wont add its an abrogated verse which he didnt but he said IF PEOPLE WONT CRITICIZE ME BY Allah I WRITE IT IN QURAN=TEHREEF NAUZUBILLAH
 
 
other thing quote you(farid) yourself said
''Secondly, if one keeps an abrogated verse in the Quran, it is not Tahreef. It is a mistake and it is haram''

you refuted your ownself farid because hazrat umar said
 
IF PEOPLE DONOT HAVE CRITICIZED UMAR FOR ADDING IN BOOK OF Allah SWT, BY Allah SWT, UMAR WOULD ADD THIS VERSE IN THE Allah'S BOOK nauzubillah!

 
means you accepted hazrat umar wanted to do the haraam mistake, coz he said IF PEOPLE DONOT CRITICIZE ME I WRITE IT IN Allah'S BOOK
 
SUCCESSFULLY PROOVE HAZRAT UMAR WANT TO DO HARAM WORK AND TEHREEF IN Allah'S BOOK AS PER YOU SAID.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Optimus Prime on January 03, 2015, 05:28:08 PM
When Farid is in action.

Watch out.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Ameen on January 04, 2015, 02:38:22 AM
Sehih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509 :

Narrated by Zaid bin Thabit,

Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the! Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project. "Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which 'Umar had realized." Then Abu Bakr said (to me). 'You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. So you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur'an and collect it in one book)." By Allah If they had ordered me to shift one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur'an. Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" Abu Bakr replied, "By Allah, it is a good project." Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allah opened my chest for what He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and 'Umar. So I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat At-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. The Verse is: 'Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty..(till the end of Surat-Baraa' (At-Tauba) (9.128-129) Then the complete manuscripts (copy) of the Qur'an remained with Abu Bakr till he died, then with 'Umar till the end of his life, and then with Hafsa, the daughter of 'Umar.

Brothers what do you think about this narration??? And note the following,

"I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?",

Also make a note of,

"Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?"

If this narration is strong and this is exactly what happened then, what is "bidda"??? Is it,

"doing or getting involved in something that the Prophet (pbuh) didn't do???".
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Ameen on January 04, 2015, 02:54:21 AM
Have a look at the following narration as well,

Sehih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 61, Number 510 :
Narrated by Anas bin Malik
Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)

Brothers make a note of the following,

"Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an",

Differences did exist right at the beginning. Now if we discuss those differences today and how the Quran was compiled and set up then, this should remain a discussion and not turn in to an accusation that, so and so believe in Tehreef e Quran.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: silentkiller on January 04, 2015, 06:41:37 AM
ok farid i am waiting
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Farid on January 04, 2015, 06:59:23 AM
@ Silentkiller:

Before moving on, I would like your view on a subject. If a random verse was abrogated from then Qur'an, but was not removed, do you consider that Tahreef? Or simply Haram?

@ Ameen:

I don't see what is strange in the first hadith you quoted.

As for the second hadith, this all has to do with the history of the Qur'anic revelation and compilation. It seems that you do not believe or are aware that the Qur'an was revealed in seven ways.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: silentkiller on January 04, 2015, 07:37:23 AM
brother Farid its your comment above i quoted

and please reply it before asking me fst answer me then i will respond you

its your comment below

if one keeps an abrogated verse in the Quran, it is not Tahreef. It is a mistake and it is haram''

you said its mistake and haram to keep abrogated verse in Quran, fst the thing is

point 1 from you its mistake and haram

Response 1  IF PEOPLE DONOT HAVE CRITICIZED UMAR FOR ADDING IN BOOK OF Allah SWT, BY Allah SWT, UMAR WOULD ADD THIS VERSE IN THE Allah'S BOOK nauzubillah!

its in your narration and its not the words of those days you mentioned, its in the last age of umar when he wanted to add verse in HolyQuran as its part.

) Malik related to me that Yahya ibn Said heard Said ibn al-Musayyab say, "When umar ibn al-Khattab came from Mina, he made his camel kneel at al-Abtah, and then he gathered a pile of small stones and cast his cloak over them and dropped to the ground. Then he raised his hands to the sky and said, 'O Allah! I have become old and my strength has weakened. My flock is scattered. Take me to You with nothing missed out and without having neglected anything.' Then he went to Madina and addressed the people. He said, 'People! Sunan have been laid down for you. Obligations have been placed upon you. You have been left with a clear way unless you lead people astray right and left.' He struck one of his hands on the other and then said, 'Take care lest you destroy the ayat of stoning so that one will say, "We do not find two hadds in the Book of Allah." The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, stoned, so we have stoned. By He in Whose Hand my self is, had it not been that people would say that umar ibn al-Khattab has added to the Book of Allah ta-ala, we would have written it, "The full-grown man and the full-grown woman, stone them absolutely." We have certainly recited that.'" Malik said, "Yahya ibn Said said Said ibn al-Musayyab said, 'Dhu'l-Hijja had not passed before umar was murdered, may Allah have mercy on him.' " Yahya said that he had heard Malik say, "As for his words 'The full-grown man and the full-grown woman' he meant, 'The man and the woman who have been married, stone them absolutely.' "  (Book #41, Hadith #41.1.10) malik muwata

now please fst according to your comment tell me do you accept umar wanted to do haram work till end of the life even if for just seconds and forsake of argument we agree you its an abrogated verse(to me according to umar it wasnt abrogated one)

plz respond this thanks
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Farid on January 04, 2015, 07:44:08 AM
Quote
now please fst according to your comment tell me do you accept umar wanted to do haram work till end of the life even if for just seconds and forsake of argument we agree you its an abrogated verse(to me according to umar it wasnt)

For the sake of the argument, I have let go of hadith Musnad Ahmad and Al-Nasa'ee, and stuck with the narration that you have provided me while ignoring the historical context. In this case, I say:

Yes, it shows that Omar wanted to do a mistake and that if he did, then it would be a sin.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: silentkiller on January 04, 2015, 07:47:12 AM
Quote
For the sake of the argument, I have let go of hadith Musnad Ahmad and Al-Nasa'ee, and stuck with the narration that you have provided me while ignoring the historical context. In this case, I say:

Yes, it shows that Omar wanted to do a mistake and that if he did, then it would be a sin.

brother you also said its haram and the narration shows please read again
UMAR WANTED TO DO IT

PLZ RESPOND THIS MAIN POINT
By He in Whose Hand my self is, had it not been that people would say that umar ibn al-Khattab has added to the Book of Allah ta-ala, we would have written  MALIK MUWATA

question is not if omar did or no Question is umar wanted to do it till end of his life and he is taking Allah's oath in the narration

and you yourself said adding verse in Quran even the abrogated is haram

so this is clear you accepted that hazrat umar wanted to do haram work till end of his life
respond this
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Farid on January 04, 2015, 07:54:55 AM
Quote
so this is clear you accepted that hazrat umar wanted to do haram work till end of his life

For the sake of the argument: Yes.

Omar wanted to do someone haram "till end of his life" but did not.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: silentkiller on January 04, 2015, 08:05:58 AM
w
Quote
so this is clear you accepted that hazrat umar wanted to do haram work till end of his life

For the sake of the argument: Yes.

Omar wanted to do someone haram "till end of his life" but did not.
anted to do=
did not just coz of fear of people not because he donot wanted too and not because of fear of Allah swt but just because of fear of people, in real hazrat umar is clear he wants to do it by ALLAH SWT said by hzrat umar is clearly visible in narration

brother now its clear hazrat umar died with haram akida of making additions in HolyQuran a person is judged by his beliefs

and hazrat umar's beliefs are clear and you accepted he wanted to do haram work till end of his life

is end of the accadamic debate coz you have accepted that it was hazrat umar who wanted to make additions in Quran without permission of Allah so now

you cannot accuse shias for tehreef or additions because your own caliph died in such mental state.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Ameen on January 04, 2015, 01:29:37 PM
@ Silentkiller:

Before moving on, I would like your view on a subject. If a random verse was abrogated from then Qur'an, but was not removed, do you consider that Tahreef? Or simply Haram?

@ Ameen:

I don't see what is strange in the first hadith you quoted.

As for the second hadith, this all has to do with the history of the Qur'anic revelation and compilation. It seems that you do not believe or are aware that the Qur'an was revealed in seven ways.

Please do provide me with the information that it was revealed in seven different ways. And what was the purpose of it being revealed in different ways. All I know and am aware of is that the Quran wasn't revealed together as one complete book, but was revealed in sentences and paragraphs or Surahs, for various reasons for example situations and conditions that developed, in the form of circumsutances, principals, rules and regulations, historical incidents and events, to settle former differences and disputes between Yahood and Nasara, etc (much much more).

What is strange??? Well it's straightforward that they're about to do and go ahead with something the Prophet (pbuh) didn't order or do himself or during his time. My question is to those who consider Eid Milaad e Nabi as Bidaa and believe we shouldn't celebrate the Prophet's (pbuh) birthday because it wasn't celebrated during the Prophet's (pbuh) time. I'm sure you know what I mean.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on January 04, 2015, 02:35:25 PM

Please do provide me with the information that it was revealed in seven different ways. And what was the purpose of it being revealed in different ways. All I know and am aware of is that the Quran wasn't revealed together as one complete book, but was revealed in sentences and paragraphs or Surahs, for various reasons for example situations and conditions that developed, in the form of circumsutances, principals, rules and regulations, historical incidents and events, to settle former differences and disputes between Yahood and Nasara, etc (much much more).


Brother Ameen,


The Qur'an was revealed on the Arabs of the time, and these Arabs just like today's Arabs spoke very different languages, just like today when you see a Tunisian speaks it is completely different words than how an Egyptian speaks, the same about Syrians and Saudis etc...


Since the Qur'an was a mercy for mankind and for these very simple uneducated Arabs, it was revealed with seven letters, seven letters at the time meant seven languages, and they were allowed to actually recite it in their languages and the Prophet (saw) would teach each man Allah's words based on his language.


What happened was that `Iraqis learned the Qur'an from folks like `Abdullah ibn Mas`oud while Shamis learned it from the likes of Ubay bin Ka`b, so the recitations differed and these laypeople had no idea this was permissible, so each group began to deny the other group's recitations, and they ended up making Takfeer on eachother, although both were reciting Allah's words.


When the Imam of that time learned that this problem started, he took action and decided to make an official Qur'an in a book form based on the Masaahif the Imams before him collected, and the people he chose to do this job as writers and collectors and supervisors were themselves from various tribes and read the Qur'an in various letters, so he instructed them that whenever they differed they should try to write the letter according to the Qurashi manner, not the language of Hudhayl or Thakeef or the others.


What ended up happening is that the Qur'an was made into a book form, and it had a certain Rasm(written text) and this text would contain some Lahn in it but the Arabs knew how to recite it so that did not matter. After the `Uthmani Rasm was established the people all accepted and adopted Mushaf-ul-Imam, then they tried to stick to it and avoided all other letters whether it was ibn Mas`oud's letters or Ubay's letters or ibn `Abbas's letters, for them the Rasm was what's more important.


The matter of Qira'aat(recitations) and Naqt and Tashkeel were the next things the nation had to work with and discuss but it was not a problem at all, recitations were derived from various Sahabah and taught to the people and their Mutawatir chains can still be traced until our days.

(I know this is a bit complicated but I'm still researching it because in all seriousness, I don't blame you for not knowing and no one I asked knew about this stuff or was able to help me in it, so I'm researching it myself at the moment in order to formulate an opinion.)
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: adnan42 on January 04, 2015, 04:57:16 PM
Paden me brothers. Both shia and sunni believe that verse of stoning was part of quran but later it was abrogated. So the verse was part of the quran before. If hrz umer didnt belief that verse was abrogated why is he talking about adding it. Because how can you add something which acc to you is already part of it. Shouldn't umer would be talking against other companions who take the quranic verse out which was part of the quran and never abrogated.
We know umer feared that in future people will abandon this practice by saying that we dont see this command of allah in quran.by the way this is exactly what is happening today. This is one of those verses in which reciting was abrogated but commandment remains.

Maybe umer want this verse to stay as a part of official book but not as the part of quran itself.  Like different companions use to write quran explaination in there book but that was not made part of official book.
Same thing we see today in quran with translation. That translation is part of the book but not the quran itself.

P.s this is just my 2 cent I am just a layman with extremely little knowlege. If mod think my post has error he can delete it. Thanx.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: silentkiller on January 04, 2015, 05:36:27 PM
Paden me brothers. Both shia and sunni believe that verse of stoning was part of quran but later it was abrogated. So the verse was part of the quran before. If hrz umer didnt belief that verse was abrogated why is he talking about adding it. Because how can you add something which acc to you is already part of it. Shouldn't umer would be talking against other companions who take the quranic verse out which was part of the quran and never abrogated.
We know umer feared that in future people will abandon this practice by saying that we dont see this command of allah in quran.by the way this is exactly what is happening today. This is one of those verses in which reciting was abrogated but commandment remains.

Maybe umer want this verse to stay as a part of official book but not as the part of quran itself.  Like different companions use to write quran explaination in there book but that was not made part of official book.
Same thing we see today in quran with translation. That translation is part of the book but not the quran itself.

P.s this is just my 2 cent I am just a layman with extremely little knowlege. If mod think my post has error he can delete it. Thanx.


fst thing brother its clear in the narration when you say you want to keep it as tafsir you say as tafsir but when you say it as the PART OF ALLAH'S BOOK clears you consider this a verse,

2nd if for sake of argument i agree your claim that umar wanted to add the verse as tafsir?
the point is hazrat umar only wanted 1 verse to add as tafsir?
which donot make any sense

3rd hazrat umar is clear in his wordings he wanted to add the verse in Allah's book and he feared the people
so the point is here why people would criticize hazrat umar for writing his own tafsir? from which hazrat umar is fearing?

so this is clear the verse umar wanted to add he consider it as the part of HolyQuran not tafsir thats why he was fearing people, like today if you talk about additions in Quran muslims will criticize you and make takfir on you as on this thread, same like hazrat umar said=> he didnt edited this verse DUE TO THE FEAR OF PEOPLE, NOT FEAR OF ALLAH SWT
OTHERWISE HE TOOK OATH OF ALLAH SWT HE WANTED IT TO BE THE PART OF ALLAH'S BOOK WHICH IS QUIET CLEAR.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: adnan42 on January 04, 2015, 06:51:28 PM
Paden me brothers. Both shia and sunni believe that verse of stoning was part of quran but later it was abrogated. So the verse was part of the quran before. If hrz umer didnt belief that verse was abrogated why is he talking about adding it. Because how can you add something which acc to you is already part of it. Shouldn't umer would be talking against other companions who take the quranic verse out which was part of the quran and never abrogated.
We know umer feared that in future people will abandon this practice by saying that we dont see this command of allah in quran.by the way this is exactly what is happening today. This is one of those verses in which reciting was abrogated but commandment remains.

Maybe umer want this verse to stay as a part of official book but not as the part of quran itself.  Like different companions use to write quran explaination in there book but that was not made part of official book.
Same thing we see today in quran with translation. That translation is part of the book but not the quran itself.

P.s this is just my 2 cent I am just a layman with extremely little knowlege. If mod think my post has error he can delete it. Thanx.


fst thing brother its clear in the narration when you say you want to keep it as tafsir you say as tafsir but when you say it as the PART OF ALLAH'S BOOK clears you consider this a verse,

2nd if for sake of argument i agree your claim that umar wanted to add the verse as tafsir?
the point is hazrat umar only wanted 1 verse to add as tafsir?
which donot make any sense

3rd hazrat umar is clear in his wordings he wanted to add the verse in Allah's book and he feared the people
so the point is here why people would criticize hazrat umar for writing his own tafsir? from which hazrat umar is fearing?

so this is clear the verse umar wanted to add he consider it as the part of HolyQuran not tafsir thats why he was fearing people, like today if you talk about additions in Quran muslims will criticize you and make takfir on you as on this thread, same like hazrat umar said=> he didnt edited this verse DUE TO THE FEAR OF PEOPLE, NOT FEAR OF ALLAH SWT
OTHERWISE HE TOOK OATH OF ALLAH SWT HE WANTED IT TO BE THE PART OF ALLAH'S BOOK WHICH IS QUIET CLEAR.

Sir if I am holding quran with translation if some one ask me what are you holding I will tell him book of allah even tho it has translation in it which is not the part of quran itself. Maybe umer use those words in same figure of speech. If someone also take my statement under microscope he can say I consider translation as a part of quran which in reality I dont.

This verse is important because unlike other abrogated verses it is talking about taking someones life. And no new verse was reviled in its place which is talking about same punishment. That I know of.

Sir Maybe people criticized it in the same sense when they criticized official collection of hadith during the compilation of quran. For the fear of bluring the line between quran and hadith. In the same sense they feared for the blurring of line between quran and abrogated verse.it is also word of allah after all.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on January 04, 2015, 07:03:32 PM
@Adnan,


Brother don't get involved in this discussion as you haven't researched it, nor did the guy you're talking to research it, so nothing is going to come out of this, even I'm still in the process of researching it. Farid has read a few books on the topic so best leave the answering to him.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: adnan42 on January 04, 2015, 07:11:00 PM
@Adnan,


Brother don't get involved in this discussion as you haven't researched it, nor did the guy you're talking to research it, so nothing is going to come out of this, even I'm still in the process of researching it. Farid has read a few books on the topic so best leave the answering to him.

Sorry sir for my ignorance please forgive me I wont post on this thread from now on. Thanx.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: silentkiller on January 04, 2015, 07:52:11 PM
Quote from brother adnan
below
''Sir if I am holding quran with translation if some one ask me what are you holding I will tell him book of allah even tho it has translation in it which is not the part of quran itself. Maybe umer use those words in same figure of speech. If someone also take my statement under microscope he can say I consider translation as a part of quran which in reality I dont.

This verse is important because unlike other abrogated verses it is talking about taking someones life. And no new verse was reviled in its place which is talking about same punishment. That I know of.

Sir Maybe people criticized it in the same sense when they criticized official collection of hadith during the compilation of quran. For the fear of bluring the line between quran and hadith. In the same sense they feared for the blurring of line between quran and abrogated verse.it is also word of allah after all.
[/quote]''

response
brother its simple umar is not talking about translation or tafsir or hadis bluring etc etc , umar considered it as the verse of the Book of Allah
and its clear Book of Allah swt KITABALLAH=HolyQuran
cleared he wanted to add one more verse

and THIS MAY BE MAY BE people say this that etc and this verse is important => from you is not a proof its your own explanation


umar wanted to add one verse in Book Of Allah KITABALLAH till end of his life this makes no sense
without permission of Allah swt
when Allah swt has abrogated it who is umar to make it as the verse in the of Book of Allah SwT?
and your partners brother farid accepted it hazrat umar died with this haram akida of making additions in HolyQuran,
so AGAIN this is clear the verse umar wanted to add he consider it as the verse of HolyQuran not tafsir translations etc thats why he was fearing people, like today if you talk about additions in Quran muslims will criticize you and make takfir on you as on this thread, same like hazrat umar said=> he didnt edited this verse DUE TO THE FEAR OF PEOPLE, NOT FEAR OF ALLAH SWT
OTHERWISE HE TOOK OATH OF ALLAH SWT HE WANTED IT TO BE THE VERSE OF ALLAH'S BOOK WHICH IS KITABALLAH HOLYQURAN QUIET CLEAR.

Quote:Quote from: Hani on Today at 10:03:32 PM  nor did the guy you're talking to research it,

lolz!
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Farid on January 05, 2015, 09:31:11 AM
@ Ameen:

Quote
Please do provide me with the information that it was revealed in seven different ways.

Brother Ameen, Hani has beaten me to this information.

As for the existence of seven ahruf (ways/letters), then you can check out the fatwa of Al-Sistani here:

http://www.sistani.org/arabic/qa/0406/

See fatwas 8 and 10.


Quote
What is strange??? Well it's straightforward that they're about to do and go ahead with something the Prophet (pbuh) didn't order or do himself or during his time. My question is to those who consider Eid Milaad e Nabi as Bidaa and believe we shouldn't celebrate the Prophet's (pbuh) birthday because it wasn't celebrated during the Prophet's (pbuh) time. I'm sure you know what I mean.

You are just playing the devil's advocate akhi, since you are a supporter of the existence of the Qur'an in a complete Mushaf. I don't have time to answer questions like these.


@ adnan42:

Thank you for reminding me that stoning and its abrogation from the Qur'an is authentic according to Shias themselves.


@ silentkiller:

Do you not believe that stoning was a part of the Qur'an but was abrogated?
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: sameer on January 05, 2015, 10:33:47 AM

and hazrat umar's beliefs are clear and you accepted he wanted to do haram work till end of his life


you dont need to tell us wht hazrat umar RA beliefs were.. for the sake of argument i say he wanted to do "haram" work,but did he? no he did not.. but on the other hand we have narrations where hazrat Ali RA did mistake when he burnt people alive ... which is not halal act in islam
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: silentkiller on January 05, 2015, 10:54:38 AM
@ Ameen:

Quote
Please do provide me with the information that it was revealed in seven different ways.

Brother Ameen, Hani has beaten me to this information.

As for the existence of seven ahruf (ways/letters), then you can check out the fatwa of Al-Sistani here:

http://www.sistani.org/arabic/qa/0406/

See fatwas 8 and 10.


Quote
What is strange??? Well it's straightforward that they're about to do and go ahead with something the Prophet (pbuh) didn't order or do himself or during his time. My question is to those who consider Eid Milaad e Nabi as Bidaa and believe we shouldn't celebrate the Prophet's (pbuh) birthday because it wasn't celebrated during the Prophet's (pbuh) time. I'm sure you know what I mean.

You are just playing the devil's advocate akhi, since you are a supporter of the existence of the Qur'an in a complete Mushaf. I don't have time to answer questions like these.


@ adnan42:

Thank you for reminding me that stoning and its abrogation from the Qur'an is authentic according to Shias themselves.


@ silentkiller:

Do you not believe that stoning was a part of the Qur'an but was abrogated?

@farid the point is not what i believe or no, for now we r discussing => the point is what omar believed you yourself said its haram to add abrogated verse in the Quran then does your question to continue the discussion make sense when you cannot prove your caliph to be died with halal akida?

the acaddamic debate is over now because you refuted your ownself, you are saying umar didnt, but the narration says BY ALLAH umar wanted to add it in KITABALLAH =s HolyQuran without permission of Allah swt

accept that fst and give me in written you believe umar died on haram akida for making additions in Quran without Allah's permission as u said in your comments+ and to call the verse abrogated answer the other points i mentioned in previous comments which you skipped all.
thanks.


and hazrat umar's beliefs are clear and you accepted he wanted to do haram work additions in Quran till end of his life


you dont need to tell us wht hazrat umar RA beliefs were.. for the sake of argument i say he wanted to do "haram" work,but did he? no he did not.. but on the other hand we have narrations where hazrat Ali RA did mistake when he burnt people alive ... which is not halal act in islam

brother i have the same reply which is for farid, and we r not discussing about burning people now nor hz ali a.s done haram work like bkr umr as your brothers accepted for umar, so plz stickup to the discussion of tehreef which your beloved caliph wanted to do instead of bogus self explanation replies.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Farid on January 05, 2015, 01:34:17 PM
@ Silentkiller:

According to all the above, since you do not want to accept that Omar was the reason that Rajm was not included in the first place... We are led to opinion that Omar had an incorrect opinion on how the Qur'an should be compiled. Is this a matter of ideology? You apparently think so, while I disagree.

@ Ameen:

Quote
Please do provide me with the information that it was revealed in seven different ways.

Brother Ameen, Hani has beaten me to this information.

As for the existence of seven ahruf (ways/letters), then you can check out the fatwa of Al-Sistani here:

http://www.sistani.org/arabic/qa/0406/

See fatwas 8 and 10.


Quote
What is strange??? Well it's straightforward that they're about to do and go ahead with something the Prophet (pbuh) didn't order or do himself or during his time. My question is to those who consider Eid Milaad e Nabi as Bidaa and believe we shouldn't celebrate the Prophet's (pbuh) birthday because it wasn't celebrated during the Prophet's (pbuh) time. I'm sure you know what I mean.

You are just playing the devil's advocate akhi, since you are a supporter of the existence of the Qur'an in a complete Mushaf. I don't have time to answer questions like these.


@ adnan42:

Thank you for reminding me that stoning and its abrogation from the Qur'an is authentic according to Shias themselves.


@ silentkiller:

Do you not believe that stoning was a part of the Qur'an but was abrogated?

@farid the point is not what i believe or no, for now we r discussing => the point is what omar believed you yourself said its haram to add abrogated verse in the Quran then does your question to continue the discussion make sense when you cannot prove your caliph to be died with halal akida?

the acaddamic debate is over now because you refuted your ownself, you are saying umar didnt, but the narration says BY ALLAH umar wanted to add it in KITABALLAH =s HolyQuran without permission of Allah swt

accept that fst and give me in written you believe umar died on haram akida for making additions in Quran without Allah's permission as u said in your comments+ and to call the verse abrogated answer the other points i mentioned in previous comments which you skipped all.
thanks.


and hazrat umar's beliefs are clear and you accepted he wanted to do haram work additions in Quran till end of his life


you dont need to tell us wht hazrat umar RA beliefs were.. for the sake of argument i say he wanted to do "haram" work,but did he? no he did not.. but on the other hand we have narrations where hazrat Ali RA did mistake when he burnt people alive ... which is not halal act in islam

brother i have the same reply which is for farid, and we r not discussing about burning people now nor hz ali a.s done haram work like bkr umr as your brothers accepted for umar, so plz stickup to the discussion of tehreef which your beloved caliph wanted to do instead of bogus self explanation replies.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: silentkiller on January 05, 2015, 02:39:17 PM
Farid at fst brother its not me talking personally i am talking according to the narrations of sihasitta, and according to what you have said and according to umar beliefs

plz respond to this attachment i am sorry to say brother from more then 24 hrs i am asking you questions regarding the narration and umar's belief but i donot have any reponses from you to the questions i asked
you skipped all

now you said after changing your opinion(from the attachment of your comment i am attaching) this
We are led to opinion that Omar had an incorrect opinion on how the Qur'an should be compiled.


which actually insults your own caliph because the narration is of old age of omar
if we agree what you said then it will give an opinion till the end of omar's life he couldnt even know how the Quran should be compiled till end of his life which makes no sense



Malik related to me that Yahya ibn Said heard Said ibn al-Musayyab say, "When umar ibn al-Khattab came from Mina, he made his camel kneel at al-Abtah, and then he gathered a pile of small stones and cast his cloak over them and dropped to the ground. Then he raised his hands to the sky and said, 'O Allah! I have become old and my strength has weakened. My flock is scattered. Take me to You with nothing missed out and without having neglected anything.' Then he went to Madina and addressed the people. He said, 'People! Sunan have been laid down for you. Obligations have been placed upon you. You have been left with a clear way unless you lead people astray right and left.' He struck one of his hands on the other and then said, 'Take care lest you destroy the ayat of stoning so that one will say, "We do not find two hadds in the Book of Allah." The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, stoned, so we have stoned. By He in Whose Hand my self is, had it not been that people would say that umar ibn al-Khattab has added to the Book of Allah ta-ala, we would have written it, "The full-grown man and the full-grown woman, stone them absolutely." We have certainly recited that.'" Malik said, "Yahya ibn Said said Said ibn al-Musayyab said, 'Dhu'l-Hijja had not passed before umar was murdered, may Allah have mercy on him.' " Yahya said that he had heard Malik say, "As for his words 'The full-grown man and the full-grown woman' he meant, 'The man and the woman who have been married, stone them absolutely.' "  (Book #41, Hadith #41.1.10) MALIK MUWATA

1 if the verse is abrogated as per umar and Allah swt has abrogated it who is omar to REadd this in KITABALLAH without Allah's permission?
2 HolyQuran is the only book which is free from additions and tehreef  and cannot be edited so there is no reason for  someone to criticize someone  for writing something in his personal tafsir ETC but only a muslim will criticiz you for making editions in HolyQuran as its obvious in the narration that criticizm of other muslims is mentioned on umar for adding the verse by umar, so umar is clear in the narration he wanted to add the verse IN KITABALLAH TILL END OF HIS LIFE BY ALLAH if people didnot have said that umar has edited the Quran nauzubillah
3 you yourself accepted that its haram to add a verse in HolyQuran offcourse you said its haram to add it in KITABALLAH
coz it will be consider as tehreef

4th OMAR TOOK THE OATH OF ALLAH SWT AND SAID HE DIDNT WROTE IT FOR FEAR OF PEOPLE BUT NOT FOR FEAR OF ALLAH SWT, IN REAL HE WANTED TOO ADD THIS

Conclusion i get from your comments is: umar died having haram akida of making additions in HolyQuran till end of his life, he didnt knew how to compile Quran till end of his life, please write me according to the attachment of the comment that umar died with haram akida of making tehreef in HolyQuran, then we will discuss further on tehreef and verse but deal with it first.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Optimus Prime on January 05, 2015, 02:47:08 PM
English is not your first language is it?
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: sameer on January 05, 2015, 04:01:42 PM

brother i have the same reply which is for farid, and we r not discussing about burning people now nor hz ali a.s done haram work like bkr umr as your brothers accepted for umar, so plz stickup to the discussion of tehreef which your beloved caliph wanted to do instead of bogus self explanation replies.

dear, if you read my reply wid open eyes, i was not discussing burning people too.. u said "he wanted to do haram work" and i just showed you who actually did it.. let me explain in simple way.. if i want to kill some one.. that would not b considered a haram act until i do.. hope you get the point which i'm still in highly doubt ..

@farid.. i bet you he will never ever be able to give u an answer because he has already ended up the "academic debate" by declaring himself a winner.. it shows how much he is aware of the word "academic" ..  he knows v well if he does answer, these allegations will vanish in the wind..
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: silentkiller on January 05, 2015, 04:21:19 PM

brother i have the same reply which is for farid, and we r not discussing about burning people now nor hz ali a.s done haram work like bkr umr as your brothers accepted for umar, so plz stickup to the discussion of tehreef which your beloved caliph wanted to do instead of bogus self explanation replies.

dear, if you read my reply wid open eyes, i was not discussing burning people too.. u said "he wanted to do haram work" and i just showed you who actually did it.. let me explain in simple way.. if i want to kill some one.. that would not b considered a haram act until i do.. hope you get the point which i'm still in highly doubt ..

@farid.. i bet you he will never ever be able to give u an answer because he has already ended up the "academic debate" by declaring himself a winner.. it shows how much he is aware of the word "academic" ..  he knows v well if he does answer, these allegations will vanish in the wind..






mr sameer if you have so much courage and excitement to discuss on burning people which you are talking about without any logic or proofs for diverting the topic we will deal it afterwords fst stick up to the topic then i will not go without ending your excitment if thats the way i can list other haram works of umar too excluding the topic of tehreef but fst deal wth the
topic of tehreef
and btw killing is not a BELIEF big LOLZ!but tehreef is a belief with intention if some thinks there is verse to be edited in Quran nauzubillah!like hazrat umar
so for now stick yourself to the topic, and answer the points i mentioned
3rd did i said i am a winner? i just quoted what your brother has said ask your brother why its haram to
make additions in Quran? did Allah swt said to add the verses in Quran? quote @farid.. i bet you he will never ever be able to give u an answer lolz!from start  to now you can read the comments its me who is asking the question about the narration you are not answering not me, when you guys will not answer what i am asking
and your own words contradict yourself how to continue it further? so fst deal with the issue
i also have given the questions which prooves the verse is not abrogated
it clearly prooves the akida e tehreef of umar

to save one caliph allegedly you put blame of haram on ur others what an image of sunni islam you are presenting
please proove me wrong rather then bogus replies of yours which are insulting your own akida caliphs.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Farid on January 06, 2015, 06:44:45 AM
@ Sameer:

I'm very much aware of our brother's habits, but thanks anyhow.


@ Silentkiller:

Brother, have you not noticed that I am playing along by starting off my responses with: "For the sake of the argument..."?

If you're only interested in "winning" an argument instead of making da'awa and convincing those that you disagree with, then I will happily concede. ;)

@ Everyone else:

I have found a third opinion. Ibn Hajar and Al-Suyuti seem to have missed out on the narration of Katheer bin Al-Salt in Musnad Ahmad. In other words, they only have the narration of Sa'eed bin Al-Musayyab that states that Omar said that he wanted to add the verse. They claimed that Omar believed that it was a part of the Qur'an, but that this is not enough to include it in the finalized Qur'an, since the Sahaba agreed that two witnesses are needed to affirm that a verse is part of the finalized Qur'an.

I've also previously discuss this matter with Hani in regards to a fourth opinion about this matter. It is that some early scholars like Yahya bin Ma'een reject the narration of Sa'eed bin Al-Musayab from Omar since he was pretty young at the time.

Wallahu a'alam.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Taha on January 06, 2015, 08:17:03 AM
Please note that this clown silentkiller does not represent me or other Shias.  Don't let his nonsense detract from the real arguments for tahreef.


He has called me a bastard nasibi and ass hole in a private message.  He also said that I lick the anus of `Umar b. Al Khattab.  On ShiaChat he has named me as a Sunni that is pretending to be a Shia so that I may misguide the Shia of Ali (a.s)


 ;D ;D


[Screenshots of the messages are available upon request.]
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: silentkiller on January 06, 2015, 09:00:27 AM
lthis mr taha is defending umar ibn khtab in my indbox hehehe and disturbing to distract me
i have no issue if u show it, mr taha and come with your true identity if someones come to me
with fake identity and defend sunni akida for no reason he deserved to be called what i said to u
now you may show screenshots to whole world i have no issue, i didnt misbehaved on the forum till now
btw
so brother farid you didnot answer any of my other points, which prooved the verse is not abrogated?
2ndly read the image i attached and read you didnot said ''forsake of argument'' but u accepted its haram

1 if the verse is abrogated as per umar and Allah swt has abrogated it who is omar to REadd this in KITABALLAH without Allah's permission?
2 HolyQuran is the only book which is free from additions and tehreef  and cannot be edited so there is no reason for  someone to criticize someone  for writing something in his personal tafsir ETC but only a muslim will criticiz you for making editions in HolyQuran as its obvious in the narration that criticizm of other muslims is mentioned on umar for adding the verse by umar, so umar is clear in the narration he wanted to add the verse
3 umar wanted to add only one abrogated verse in Quran doesnt make any sense
is clear tehreef

regarding its chain narrators r sahih
http://library.islamweb.net/hadith/display_hbook.php?bk_no=19&hid=1482&pid=3571

all the narrators r sahih, 2nd
umar didnot considered it as the abrogated verse

حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ مَنِيعٍ، حَدَّثَنَا إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ يُوسُفَ الأَزْرَقُ، عَنْ دَاوُدَ بْنِ أَبِي هِنْدٍ، عَنْ سَعِيدِ بْنِ الْمُسَيَّبِ، عَنْ عُمَرَ بْنِ الْخَطَّابِ، قَالَ رَجَمَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَرَجَمَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ وَرَجَمْتُ وَلَوْلاَ أَنِّي أَكْرَهُ أَنْ أَزِيدَ فِي كِتَابِ اللَّهِ لَكَتَبْتُهُ فِي الْمُصْحَفِ فَإِنِّي قَدْ خَشِيتُ أَنْ تَجِيءَ أَقْوَامٌ فَلاَ يَجِدُونَهُ فِي كِتَابِ اللَّهِ فَيَكْفُرُونَ بِهِ ‏.‏ قَالَ وَفِي الْبَابِ عَنْ عَلِيٍّ ‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو عِيسَى حَدِيثُ عُمَرَ حَدِيثٌ حَسَنٌ صَحِيحٌ وَرُوِيَ مِنْ غَيْرِ وَجْهٍ عَنْ عُمَرَ ‏.‏
tirmizi kitab al hadud
Grade   : Sahih (Darussalam)   
Reference    : Jami` at-Tirmidhi 1431
In-book reference    : Book 17, Hadith 11
English translation    : Vol. 3, Book 15, Hadith 1431


Malik related to me that Yahya ibn Said heard Said ibn al-Musayyab say, "When umar ibn al-Khattab came from Mina, he made his camel kneel at al-Abtah, and then he gathered a pile of small stones and cast his cloak over them and dropped to the ground. Then he raised his hands to the sky and said, 'O Allah! I have become old and my strength has weakened. My flock is scattered. Take me to You with nothing missed out and without having neglected anything.' Then he went to Madina and addressed the people. He said, 'People! Sunan have been laid down for you. Obligations have been placed upon you. You have been left with a clear way unless you lead people astray right and left.' He struck one of his hands on the other and then said, 'Take care lest you destroy the ayat of stoning so that one will say, "We do not find two hadds in the Book of Allah." The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, stoned, so we have stoned. By He in Whose Hand my self is, had it not been that people would say that umar ibn al-Khattab has added to the Book of Allah ta-ala, we would have written it, "The full-grown man and the full-grown woman, stone them absolutely." We have certainly recited that.'" Malik said, "Yahya ibn Said said Said ibn al-Musayyab said, 'Dhu'l-Hijja had not passed before umar was murdered, may Allah have mercy on him.' " Yahya said that he had heard Malik say, "As for his words 'The full-grown man and the full-grown woman' he meant, 'The man and the woman who have been married, stone them absolutely.' "  (Book #41, Hadith #41.1.10) MALIK MUWATA

its clear now umar has cleared he didnt added it COZ ITS MAKROOH, NOTICE NOT HARAM AS PER UMAR TO MAKE TEHREEF SO NOW ITS ALL CLEAR UMAR CONSIDER IT THE PART OF HOLYQURAN
AND HE WANTED TO ADD THE VERSE
TILL END OF HIS LIFE UMAR WANTED TO MAKE THE TEHREE IN HOLY QURAN NAUZUBILLAH BUT DIDNT ONLY COZ OF FEAR OF PEOPLE NOT BY FEAR OF ALLAH SWT, ALONG WITH THAT UMAR TOOK OATH OF ALLAH SWT  IF PEOPLE DIDNT CRITICIZE HIM HE WANTED TO TEHREEF THE ALLAH'S BOOK NAUZUBILLAH WHICH WE HAVE PROOVED FROM MALIK MUWATA AND HE DIED IN SUCH STATE TILL HIS OLD AGE HE KEPT BELIEVING IN TEHREEF E QURAN.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Taha on January 06, 2015, 09:05:47 AM
lthis mr taha is defending umar ibn khtab in my indbox hehehe
i have no issue if u show it, mr taha and come with your true identity if someones come to me
with fake identity and defend sunni akida for no reason he deserved to be called what i said to u
now you may show screenshots to whole world i have no issue, i didnt misbehaved on the forum till now
I never defending `Umar b. Al Khattab, I said that hadeeth you quoted was da`eef [weak] and I said that Farid or Hani could give you a better analysis than I could.  That isn't defending Sunni aqeedah [there is no kaf in the word aqeedah, by the way -- it is a qaf].  I was honestly trying to help you strengthen your arguments, but it is apparent that you have no use for such things. 


I'd be glad to post the screenshots but I am missing two.  I don't save messages in my outbox generally, so I only have the messages you sent to me and one of the three that I sent to you.  If you wish to post screenshots of exactly what I said to you, go ahead.  I doubt anybody would think that they [the messages] show me defending Sunni aqeedah or the person of `Umar b. Al Khattab, rather they show that I curse `Umar.  If cursing him counts as defending him, well, you're his biggest fan.  Also, why should I post under my real name if you don't?  That's quite a ridiculous argument, honestly.  The point of online forums is anonymous discussion with people all over the world.  This isn't Facebook where I post my real information, pictures, and discuss my real life.


Anyways, I'm done discussing with you.  It's a huge waste of my time.  I promised a friend that I would memorize a new Surah and recite it for her tomorrow, so toodles. 


Mods: Apologies for the off-topic posts.  I will cease responding to this person on this thread if he decides to continue.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on January 06, 2015, 11:05:12 AM
Brother silentkiller,


Did you send brother Taha this private message?


(http://i.imgur.com/YrIqnxJ.png)
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: silentkiller on January 06, 2015, 11:14:49 AM
Brother silentkiller,


Did you send brother Taha this private message?


(http://i.imgur.com/YrIqnxJ.png)
MASHAALLAH HANI, btw mr taha was disturbing me in the indbox and defending umar bin khtab as his advocate for no reason
and wanting me to take the discussion out of thread to indbox, by messaging me for no reason
+ i think this message have nothing to do with the forum coz i didnt used any bad words on this forum u may check so btw
thanks for exposing your ownself that mr taha is your account you cowards cannot debate shames be upon you for playing filthy tricks to get out of discussion
ALHAMDULILLAH I SUCCESSFULLY PROOVED UMAR BIN KHATAB A KAFIR FOR BELIEVING IN TEHREEF E QURAN SAHIHULISNAD,
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Optimus Prime on January 06, 2015, 11:18:28 AM
Brother silentkiller,


Did you send brother Taha this private message?


(http://i.imgur.com/YrIqnxJ.png)
MASHAALLAH HANI
thanks for exposing your ownself that mr taha is your account you cowards cannot debate shames be upon you for playing filthy tricks to get out of discussion
ALHAMDULILLAH I SUCCESSFULLY PROOVED UMAR BIN KHATAB A KAFIR FOR BELIEVING IN TEHREEF E QURAN SAHIHULISNAD,

Or maybe Hani was sent a screenshot of that message.

Umar ibn Khattab (RA) is your superior. Love and respect him little dude.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on January 06, 2015, 11:21:56 AM
MASHAALLAH HANI
thanks for exposing your ownself that mr taha is your account you cowards cannot debate shames be upon you for playing filthy tricks to get out of discussion
ALHAMDULILLAH I SUCCESSFULLY PROOVED UMAR BIN KHATAB A KAFIR FOR BELIEVING IN TEHREEF E QURAN SAHIHULISNAD,


So you did send it. In that case I am going to have to warn you to please not send any offensive messages to any of our members in the future. I will overlook this for the time being.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Optimus Prime on January 06, 2015, 11:24:40 AM
MASHAALLAH HANI
thanks for exposing your ownself that mr taha is your account you cowards cannot debate shames be upon you for playing filthy tricks to get out of discussion
ALHAMDULILLAH I SUCCESSFULLY PROOVED UMAR BIN KHATAB A KAFIR FOR BELIEVING IN TEHREEF E QURAN SAHIHULISNAD,


So you did send it. In that case I am going to have to warn you to please not send any offensive messages to any of our members in the future. I will overlook this for the time being.

lol, he ended up admitting he was responsible for sending that PM.

Shaabash.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: silentkiller on January 06, 2015, 11:24:57 AM
mr hani stop your second account with name of taha from pvt msging me to disturb& to defend umar ibn khtab as i dont need them
thanks.
and please conclude it if any one can reply and save hazrat umar from tehreef plz reply my comments and questions
as you urself accepted hazrat umar died with haram akida of making tehreef in Quran, chain is sahih too

from 2+days i have no logical replies from all of you but started using filthy tricks to track me up in indbox on the topic to move away from thread to indboxes
musayab was a fukaha not baby, and he is mentioned sika fukaha sahih in the chain

so i conclude saying this from comments of yours
brother farid has accepted hazrat umar died on haram akida of making additions in HolyQuran, and i prooved it he wanted it to be the verse of HolyQuran till he died and for that he took OATH OF ALLAH FOR MAKING TEHREEF
2nd one more conclusion from bro farid he said umar didnt even knew how to compile Quran till end of his life you may read all previous comments.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: silentkiller on January 06, 2015, 12:15:08 PM
Quote
Or maybe Hani was sent a screenshot of that message.

Umar ibn Khattab (RA) is your superior. Love and respect him little dude.

IMAM ALI haaahahaha save superior hazrat umar ibn khatab from tehreef, hzrat umar agreed Ali a.s was the best qazi not him, Ali a.s called him a liar sinful+treachrous hehehe

btw
and superior mighty hzrat umar wanted to make tehreef of Quran till end and as per u guys he had a haram akida and he is a kafir for believing it hehehe lolz!
story ended hz umar  is not proven our superior but has been prooved a superior kafir as per u heheheh lolz!
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Taha on January 06, 2015, 12:26:42 PM
So, I said I wasn't going to respond, but I have to, this is too much.


First off, I am laughing my rear end off at being called the second account of Hani.  Perhaps you should look at my posts on this forum and think long and hard about what you have said.  Would Hani really curse the Shaykhayn and their daughters?  I have on this forum, and I think he even gave me a warning.  Would Hani call himself rude?


Secondly, I wasn't "disturbing" you.  I saw that you posted on ShiaChat about how cowardly people on this forum are.  I messaged you that Farid and Hani are the people you should talk with if you're interested in learning the Sunni perspective; not everyone on this forum is an expert in their religion.  I was trying to help you, but whatever dude.  And I haven't even responded to your last insulting PM, so I don't get how I'm disturbing you ...


Or maybe Hani was sent a screenshot of that message.

I sent 4 screenshots to both Hani and Farid (Farid only because I thought he might get a laugh out of it); 3 of his messages and one of mine.  I could, theoretically, post a screenshot of when I sent the message to Hani (with timestamp and everything) but I don't particularly care to derail this thread more than it already has been.


---------------------------------------------------


Anyways, back to memorizing that surah.  I need to impress this girl so I can get married and Farid can stop with the jokes (http://forum.twelvershia.net/sahabah-ahlulbayt/prophet-(saw)-'don't-trouble-me-by-harming-aisha'-(sahih-bukhari)/msg1871/#msg1871). :P
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on January 06, 2015, 12:29:16 PM

IMAM ALI haaahahaha save superior hazrat umar ibn khatab from tehreef, hzrat umar agreed Ali a.s was the best qazi not him, Ali a.s called him a liar sinful+treachrous hehehe

btw
and superior mighty hzrat umar wanted to make tehreef of Quran till end and as per u guys he had a haram akida and he is a kafir for believing it hehehe lolz!


According to the screen shot you took, it seems Farid said that adding an abrogated verse is Haram not "Tahreef".


My question for all you guys, is writing down an abrogated Qur'anic verse in the Suhuf before the Qur'an was transformed into book form and before they agreed upon its Rasm during `Uthman's Imamah, is this also Haram? While knowing that the collected Suhuf themselves contained abrogated verses and even the `Uthmani Mushaf contains abrogated verses.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: silentkiller on January 06, 2015, 12:47:17 PM

IMAM ALI haaahahaha save superior hazrat umar ibn khatab from tehreef, hzrat umar agreed Ali a.s was the best qazi not him, Ali a.s called him a liar sinful+treachrous hehehe

btw
and superior mighty hzrat umar wanted to make tehreef of Quran till end and as per u guys he had a haram akida and he is a kafir for believing it hehehe lolz!


According to the screen shot you took, it seems Farid said that adding an abrogated verse is Haram not "Tahreef".


My question for all you guys, is writing down an abrogated Qur'anic verse in the Suhuf before the Qur'an was transformed into book form and before they agreed upon its Rasm during `Uthman's Imamah, is this also Haram? While knowing that the collected Suhuf themselves contained abrogated verses and even the `Uthmani Mushaf contains abrogated verses.


Allah swt has abrogated the verse but as per umar verse isnt abrogated its visible in narration you are failed to answer any of the points second thing is

it was not about those days the narration clears its in the old age of umar still believed to edit the Quran with a verse without permission of Allah swt

who is he to add?

3rd is umar has cleared in the narration he considered it the verse of Quran and he wanted to add it but he didnt due to fear of people not due to fear of Allah swt

4th thing is farid himself accepted he died with the haram akida, and obviously if you add the verses in HolyQuran people will criticize you for tehreef no person will criticize you for adding your own book and tafsir but the Quran which is mentioned in the narration

5th thing is umar has clarified he didnot consider haram to make tehreef e Quran other wise he will add in Quran but he didnt coz of people will say umar has edited the KITABALLAH narrations are pretty clear.

6th its no sense of keeping one abrogated verse in Quran AS KITABALLAH, because Allah swt has omitted it and umar is no one to reaDD it

7th its cleared umar was doing this against messenger sas of Allah swt and he died with a belief
which opposed Allah swt and messenger sas pbuh

Umar said: "When this verse came down I approached the Prophet peace be upon him so I asked him: Should I write it down?' It is as if he hated that" Then Umar said: "Cant you see that if the old man if he commits adultery he does not get the whip, and that if the young man if he commits adultery he gets stoned?" (Ibn Hajar Al Asqalani, Fathul Bari, Kitab: Al Hudood, Bab: Al I'tiraaf bil Zina, Commentary on Hadith no. 6327, Source)

so conclusion its clearly prooved umar wanted to do tehreef in Quran without permission of Allah swt but he didnt coz of fear of people and he died in such state of having belief of making edition in Quran till his death as his age is clear iin the narration as he took oath of Allah swt for doing it story ended.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: silentkiller on January 06, 2015, 12:57:10 PM
So, I said I wasn't going to respond, but I have to, this is too much.


First off, I am laughing my rear end off at being called the second account of Hani.  Perhaps you should look at my posts on this forum and think long and hard about what you have said.  Would Hani really curse the Shaykhayn and their daughters?  I have on this forum, and I think he even gave me a warning.  Would Hani call himself rude?


Secondly, I wasn't "disturbing" you.  I saw that you posted on ShiaChat about how cowardly people on this forum are.  I messaged you that Farid and Hani are the people you should talk with if you're interested in learning the Sunni perspective; not everyone on this forum is an expert in their religion.  I was trying to help you, but whatever dude.  And I haven't even responded to your last insulting PM, so I don't get how I'm disturbing you ...


Or maybe Hani was sent a screenshot of that message.

I sent 4 screenshots to both Hani and Farid (Farid only because I thought he might get a laugh out of it); 3 of his messages and one of mine.  I could, theoretically, post a screenshot of when I sent the message to Hani (with timestamp and everything) but I don't particularly care to derail this thread more than it already has been.


---------------------------------------------------


Anyways, back to memorizing that surah.  I need to impress this girl so I can get married and Farid can stop with the jokes (http://forum.twelvershia.net/sahabah-ahlulbayt/prophet-(saw)-'don't-trouble-me-by-harming-aisha'-(sahih-bukhari)/msg1871/#msg1871). :P



hahaahahahah dear advocate of umar ibn khtab show your posts in ahlsunnah madrassas and come with your real identity u 3rd class coward hiding in burqa lolz.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on January 06, 2015, 01:17:41 PM
Okay, I have some further questions and Farid can build on these questions which I am asking, Shia scholars say that `Ali wrote in the Qur'an the abrogated verses, such as here:



al-‘Allamah Ja’afar al-Subhani says in “‘Aqaiduna al-Falsafiyah wal-Quraniyah” pg.120-121:


[What is said about ‘Ali (as) collecting the Quran after the passing of the Prophet (SAWS), this means that he wrote the Quran in a way that is identical to how to was revealed, and he placed the abrogated verses before the abrogating verses as al-Majlisi stated in “Bihar al-Anwar”]


What is your view on `Ali writing these abrogated verses?
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: silentkiller on January 06, 2015, 01:27:54 PM
Okay, I have some further questions and Farid can build on these questions which I am asking, Shia scholars say that `Ali wrote in the Qur'an the abrogated verses, such as here:



al-‘Allamah Ja’afar al-Subhani says in “‘Aqaiduna al-Falsafiyah wal-Quraniyah” pg.120-121:


[What is said about ‘Ali (as) collecting the Quran after the passing of the Prophet (SAWS), this means that he wrote the Quran in a way that is identical to how to was revealed, and he placed the abrogated verses before the abrogating verses as al-Majlisi stated in “Bihar al-Anwar”]


What is your view on `Ali writing these abrogated verses?

i have clearly prooved umar didnot considered it as an abrogated verse, but as the verse of HolyQuran thats why he cleared he feared the people that people will criticize him for tehreef otherwise he would have wrote it in the book of Allah BY ALLAH SAID BY UMAR, and its pointless to discuss when you urself accepted that its haram akida of adding verses in HolyQuran even they r abrogated(even i proved the verse as per umar is not abrogated), so its as per ur beliefs as u issued the challenge to shias but couldnt save umar from tehreef
and i also have cleared umar didnt consider tehreef e Quran haram, but i have no responses from the points i mentioned from anyone of you.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Mythbuster1 on January 06, 2015, 02:43:09 PM
Just adding my two cents.......

As far as we know Umar ra knew it was abrogated, but what planet is silent killer on, Saying Umar ra never knew it was abrogated?

Hajar Al Asqalani says in his commentary on Saheeh Bukhari...
                                                                                                       

 

Umar said: "When this verse came down I approached the Prophet peace be upon him so I asked him: Should I write it down?' It is as if he hated that" Then Umar said: "Cant you see that if the old man if he commits adultery he does not get the whip, and that if the young man if he commits adultery he gets stoned?" (Ibn Hajar Al Asqalani, Fathul Bari, Kitab: Al Hudood, Bab: Al I'tiraaf bil Zina, Commentary on Hadith no. 6327, Source)

 

 

Here we clearly see that the Prophet (peace be upon him) did not want the verse to be written down because it was never meant to be part of the text of the Quran. The scholars of Islam are unanimous that the recitation of this verse has been abrogated but its ruling still remains in effect.

However, the only reason why Umar got emotional and wanted to put the verse in the Quran was because he was afraid that one day people would think that its ruling had been cancelled. However, the companions did not allow him to because they all knew that its recitation had been abrogated. In order to put a verse in the Quran there needed to be two witnesses and Umar was all by himself. Umar himself knew that its RECITATION WAS ABROGATEDbut he was getting emotional, for he feared that people in the future would not believe in the ruling of stoning the adulterers.
 

Imam ibn Hajar Al Asqalani has in his commentary...


 

In the verse whose recitation has been abrogated but its ruling remained, and it has happened what Umar feared. A tribe from the Khawarij or most of them and some of the Mu'tazilites rejected the stoning.
                                 


 

And it was reported by Abd al Razzaq and Al Tabari from another view that Ibn Abbas said that Umar said "There will come a people that will lie (or disbelieve) in the stoning" (Ibn Hajar Al Asqalani, Fathul Bari, Kitab: Al Hudood, Bab: Rajam Al Hublah min Zana Eezha Ahsanat, Commentary on Hadith no. 6328, Source) 

 

 

Imam Nawawi says in his commentary in Saheeh Muslim...

                                                                                                                       
Muhammad Shams al-Haqq al-Adhim Abadi, Awn al-Mabud Sharh Sunan Abu Dawud, Kitab: Al Hudood, Bab: Fil Rajam, Commentary on Hadith no. 3835, Source)
 
                                   

 

And the companions of the Prophet abandoning the writing of this verse is clear evidence that the abrogated should not be written in the Quran and that Umar's statement about the stoning as he is on the pulpit and the silence of the companions and other than them from who were present from opposing him is evidence about the ruling of the stoning (still being implemented) (Imam Nawawi, Sharh Saheeh Muslim, Kitab: Al Hudood, Bab: Rajam Al Thayb fil Zina, Commentary on Hadith no. 3201, Source)

 

 

Al Sindi says in his commentary on Sunan Ibn Majah...

 
                                                                                               

The verse of stoning: Its recitation has been abrogated and its ruling still remains in effect. (Al Sindi, Sharh Sunan Ibn Majah, Kitab: Al Hudood, Bab: Al Rajam, Commentary on Hadith no. 2543, Source)

 

 

Muhammad Shams al-Haqq al-Adhim Abadi says in his commentary on Sunan Abu Dawud...

                                                                                                                         

 

And this is whose recitation has been abrogated but ruling remains in effect. (Muhammad Shams al-Haqq al-Adhim Abadi, Awn al-Mabud Sharh Sunan Abu Dawud, Kitab: Al Hudood, Bab: Fil Rajam, Commentary on Hadith no. 3835, Source)

 



We can clearly see that there was a consensus amongst the companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and the scholars that the recitation of the verse on stoning was abrogated and that they did not corrupt it. How can all the companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) who sacrificed everything they had for this religion just happen to decide to come together and purposely corrupt the Quran by removing this verse? What motive would they have in doing so if its law was to remain being implemented? So there can't be a motive to remove this verse simply because they wished to not follow its ruling since the ruling still remains in effect up to this day.
So clearly the evidence shows that this recitation was always meant to be abrogated while its ruling remains in effect.


And ALLAH SWT knows best

 
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on January 06, 2015, 02:55:43 PM
hahaahahahah dear advocate of umar ibn khtab show your posts in ahlsunnah madrassas and come with your real identity u 3rd class coward hiding in burqa lolz.




Based on your continued rudeness and ill-manners and based on the private messages you kept sending brother Taha who was polite to you, we will ban you according to the rules and we hope InshaAllah that thisw decision is not an act of oppression.



(http://i.imgur.com/PEwV899.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/KTr4z5j.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/2UB9MaP.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/4rh0lSP.png)

If there's one thing you proved during your stay, is that you act like a troll who hasn't researched a matter but wishes to make Takfeer on people no matter what. Your stay is not welcome.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Optimus Prime on January 06, 2015, 03:36:11 PM


His bottle of taqiyahbiotics has ran out and can no longer find the strength to restrain himself and has now let fire by going on a lanatin'n spree.  ;D
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: adnan42 on January 06, 2015, 03:59:49 PM
In what sense writing abrogated verse in mushaf is haram. Is there any hadith or proof on that?
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on January 06, 2015, 04:24:03 PM
In what sense writing abrogated verse in mushaf is haram. Is there any hadith or proof on that?


I'm still researching this, so far what I can say is that I personally believe:


Writing an abrogated verse before the Mushaf of `Uthman was spread and agreed upon by the Sahabah is not Haraam nor forbidden unless the Prophet (saw) himself said to not write it. In our case he (saw) never said anything but appears to have shown dislike, thus the verse of Rajm was never written at any point in a Mushaf, not that it was written but then removed, it was never written in the first place.


The Sahabah had abrogated verses written in their Masaahif, even the Qur'an we have today has abrogated verses in it as is shown in many narrations, the ruling of these verses is cancelled but the Rasm remained. `Umar it seems was arguing that they were not told by the Prophet (saw) to keep this verse out of the Qur'an, yet many others would not have accepted this simply because they also were not told to put it in the Qur'an, which means it was abrogated. `Umar also feared that the people would reject Allah's law of stoning so he considered having the verse written. In fact a lot of Qur'an went with our Prophet (saw) because he never ordered for it to be written, they would recite it but never write it down in the Qur'anic body, Ayat-ul-Rajm is an example of this, Surat-ul-Ahzab I think had a lot of such verses.


Adding a verse of Qur'an to the Qur'an is not Tahreef, both come from Allah although two narrations from what I know show that `Umar wanted to write al-Rajm on the side and not as a part of the Qur'anic text.


For now, all I can say is, adding a verse to the Qur'an after it was made into book form and after its text was agreed upon by the Sahabah is Haraam because the opinion of one individual cannot cancel the consensus of Sahabah even if this individual was well versed such as ibn Ms`oud.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: adnan42 on January 06, 2015, 07:58:57 PM
What is this haram aqeedah and halal aqeedah terminology?
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: Hani on January 06, 2015, 08:02:55 PM
What is this haram aqeedah and halal aqeedah terminology?


You have to decipher silentkiller's writing, a hard task. I don't understand what he writes word for word I only get the general meaning of what he's trying to say.


Anyways, any further questions have to go to Farid, I'm not qualified to answer advanced questions related to Qur'anic compilation as I haven't finished my research or reached my conclusions.
Title: Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
Post by: adnan42 on January 13, 2015, 05:01:49 AM
Did Caliph Umar actually think some verse was missing?
Most certainly Caliph Umar knew well and understood that the particular words 'When a married man or woman commit adultery, stone them (to death)'are not meant to be the part of the actual text of the Holy Quran. This is clear from another tradition in which he said:

"Had it not been that people would say Umar has made an addition to the Book of Allah, I would have written it on the margin of the Quran."(Musnad Ahmad Hadith 151. Ahmad Shakir classified it as Sahih)
And according to the wording in Sunan Nasai Al-Kubra Hadith 7151 , he said 'I would have written and appended it to the Quran.'

Now idea of writing at the margin of the Quran or adding as an appendix clearly shows that he only meant to add it as side note or commentary to the Quran to tell the future generations explicitly about the punishment of stoning whom he feared rejecting this commandment and going astray