Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni

[Hadrami]

i see nader is here now. maybe it means he accepts your challenge 

[Hani]

i see nader is here now. maybe it means he accepts your challenge 

He dislikes debates, so that won't be happening. The only chance you have is to convince him personally that this is beneficial.

[Ameen]

May Allah help us, we're trying to be patient and polite as opposed to the other side who've badly insulted our members more than once. We will wait and try to remind them every once in a while, maybe a qualified respectable member "who has time" would step up, so we can benefit from his knowledge.


For now we insist the official debate takes place here, this is an invitation, they can accept it or reject it as they please, we've already heard all sorts of excuses.


We hope the "bigger" names on ShiaChat will accept a simple, respectable debate so we can reach the truth, we've heard a lot of them boast throughout the years about their superiority and knowledge, yet when it comes down to it, suddenly we don't hear their voices although we know they've seen the thread.


InshaAllah Khayrun,

Oh,I would definitely like a shot at the title. So what do you say??? It's your call.

[Hani]

This is Farid's thread, it's up to him, depends if he judges that you're qualified or not since he was only asking for a qualified debater.

[Ameen]

This is Farid's thread, it's up to him, depends if he judges that you're qualified or not since he was only asking for a qualified debater.

I have no problem what so ever with that. If he's not up to it then I guess I'm not qualified.

[Taha]

Tahreef should be a Shia-Shia debate lol. Sunna don't believe in tahreef. Some Shia do and some don't. I certainly do.

[Hani]

Ok Mr Shia, please tell us why you believe in Tahreef al-Qur'an and what type of Tahreef do you believe took place in Allah's book?

[silentkiller]

hani what do you say abou the person who believes in tehreef e Quran what are your views about him what do you think is he a kaifr? explain plz

[Hani]

hani what do you say abou the person who believes in tehreef e Quran what are your views about him what do you think is he a kaifr? explain plz

You as a Shia will obviously ask this question, you'd expect the Sunni to reply "Kafir!", then you copy/paste a text of a Hadith that shows that let's say Ibn Mas`oud used to erase the Mu`awidhatayn from his Mushaf, or any text along those lines, then you'd be like: "See you just made Takfeer on ibn Mas`oud."


It is at that point which you will receive an answer that you've never heard of and you will open a door to a topic that will confuse yourself and most readers who don't know anything about the Qur'an.


The believe in Tahreef-ul-Qur'an which is usually attributed to Shia is as follows:


`Ali's name and his appointment as leader was never mentioned in the Qur'an, nothing about his ten children nor the 12th Imam was ever mentioned as well. Coincidentally, those responsible for collecting the Suhuf were Abu Bakr and `Umar, then the one responsible for copying it in a book format and spreading it in the lands is `Uthman, these three men are enemies of `Ali according to the Shia and this is how this belief emerged and spread among Rafidah in the old ages.


Narrations were fabricated by Rafidah, accusing the Sahabah of conspiring and deleting from the Qur'an things to do with `Ali and his household, also things to do with the identities of the hypocrites.


Now most Rafidah today don't believe this (although some still do), yet we say that should anyone hold this belief, that Allah's book was tampered with by the hypocrites and the guidance of Allah didn't reach us, this the Muslims agree that it is Kufr.


Farid can add his opinion if he wishes to this.

[Optimus Prime]

Yes, Farid, please do.

[silentkiller]

mr hani you just started the debate topic of tehreef and i asked you a simple question, but you cannot answer this simple question?and you are here for the debate?along with that you are accepting that you have narrations on tehrif in your books are you debator or a cartoon?
did i said any thing about abdullah ibn masud now?why r u getting scared to answer this simple question
plz answer what i asked thanks!

[Hani]

mr hani you just started the debate topic of tehreef and i asked you a simple question, but you cannot answer this simple question?and you are here for the debate?along with that you are accepting that you have narrations on tehrif in your books are you debator or a cartoon?
did i said any thing about abdullah ibn masud now?why r u getting scared to answer this simple question
plz answer what i asked thanks!

I believe it was Farid who issued the challenge and I just addressed the posts of ShiaChat on this thread.


Regarding the simple question I answered it in my previous post and if you cannot find it then this is a very bad sign that you are unqualified to debate in the first place.

[silentkiller]

mr hani you are a pure coward, i just asked you a simple question what is ur belief on the person who believes Quran to be incomplete with tehreef

is he kafir? answer yes or no

instead of answering you just posted a long sentences which is not answer of my question

you still have time plz answer and ask mr farid urf DeBateR rehmatullah alay too what is his belief on the person who believes Quran to be incomplete with tehreef

is he kafir? answer yes or no
?

[Hadrami]

mr hani you are a pure coward, i just asked you a simple question what is ur belief on the person who believes Quran to be incomplete with tehreef

is he kafir? answer yes or no

instead of answering you just posted a long sentences which is not answer of my question

you still have time plz answer and ask mr farid urf DeBateR rehmatullah alay too what is his belief on the person who believes Quran to be incomplete with tehreef

is he kafir? answer yes or no
?

Now most Rafidah today don't believe this (although some still do), yet we say that should anyone hold this belief, that Allah's book was tampered with by the hypocrites and the guidance of Allah didn't reach us, this the Muslims agree that it is Kufr.


Farid can add his opinion if he wishes to this.

He did answer you. Look at the bold part.

[silentkiller]

so this is the answer that Muslims agree its the kuffar

for believing Quran to be incomplete? hani and hadarmi?

your answer is  if a person believes in Quran to be incomplete is a KAFIR right?

[Hadrami]

what is it about shia that we have to repeat the same thing over and over. Reread what Hani wrote, its not his opinion, its Muslim belief. Allah SWT said He will protect it and then you say it didn't happen. What does it make you?

[silentkiller]

MASHAALLAH HADARMI MRFARID REHMATULLAH ALAYH THE DEBATER AND HANI I CONGRATULATE YOU FOR MAKING HAZRAT UMAR A NON MUSLIM KAFIR BECAUSE IT WAS YOUR BELOVED CALIPH HAZRAT UMAR WHO HAD THE BELIEF OF TEHREEF E QURAN TILL END OF HIS LIFE HE WANTED TO WRITE SOME VERSES IN HOLYQURAN FOR MAKING TEHREEF BECAUSE OF HIS CORRUPT BELIEF


 Malik related to me that Yahya ibn Said heard Said ibn al-Musayyab say, "When umar ibn al-Khattab came from Mina, he made his camel kneel at al-Abtah, and then he gathered a pile of small stones and cast his cloak over them and dropped to the ground. Then he raised his hands to the sky and said, 'O Allah! I have become old and my strength has weakened. My flock is scattered. Take me to You with nothing missed out and without having neglected anything.' Then he went to Madina and addressed the people. He said, 'People! Sunan have been laid down for you. Obligations have been placed upon you. You have been left with a clear way unless you lead people astray right and left.' He struck one of his hands on the other and then said, 'Take care lest you destroy the ayat of stoning so that one will say, "We do not find two hadds in the Book of Allah." The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, stoned, so we have stoned. By He in Whose Hand my self is, had it not been that people would say that umar ibn al-Khattab has added to the Book of Allah ta-ala, we would have written it, "The full-grown man and the full-grown woman, stone them absolutely." We have certainly recited that.'" Malik said, "Yahya ibn Said said Said ibn al-Musayyab said, 'Dhu'l-Hijja had not passed before umar was murdered, may Allah have mercy on him.' " Yahya said that he had heard Malik say, "As for his words 'The full-grown man and the full-grown woman' he meant, 'The man and the woman who have been married, stone them absolutely.' "  (Book #41, Hadith #41.1.10) MALIK MUWATA
SUBHANALLAH
HAZRAT UMAR IS A KAFIR WHO DIDNT EVEN KNEW WHAT HANI MRFARID THE DEBATER REHMATULLAHALAY AND HADARMI KNOW THAT ALLAH SWT HAVE PROTECTED THIS BOOK HOLYQURAN IT CANNOT BE EDITED BUT HE HZRAT UMAR STILL WANTED TO ADD THE HOLYBOOK TILL END OF HIS LIFE MASHAALLAH 

[Taha]

So the Sunni scholars that believed in tahreef are kuffar too?  Or nah?

[Husayn]

So the Sunni scholars that believed in tahreef are kuffar too?  Or nah?

Anyone who believes in tahreef is a kaffir.

Now, go ahead and demonstrate to us an example of respected Sunni scholars believing in tahrif.

Hint: not nasqh, tahreef.

[silentkiller]

brother i have proven hazrat umar => believing in tehreef e Quran

and you declared him kafir MASHAALLAH

i quoted the narration and you are asking to quote the scholar?we will quote you the scholars too but plz tell me

do your scholars know better than hazrat umar?  prooves ahlsunnah are the one believe in tehreef of HolyQuran as per teachings of their beloved caliph so please issue the fatwa of kufar against HAZRAT UMAR first instead of accusing shias