Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni

[Husayn]

brother i have proven hazrat umar  for believing in tehreef e Quran

and you declared him kafir MASHAALLAH

i quoted the narration and you are asking to quote the scholar?

do your scholars know better than hazrat umar? B-)

You mean tahreef AL-Qur'an?

No buddy, 'Umar ibn al-Khattab (ra) didn't believe in tahreef.

[Hani]

Malik related to me that Yahya ibn Said heard Said ibn al-Musayyab say, "When umar ibn al-Khattab came from Mina, he made his camel kneel at al-Abtah, and then he gathered a pile of small stones and cast his cloak over them and dropped to the ground. Then he raised his hands to the sky and said, 'O Allah! I have become old and my strength has weakened. My flock is scattered. Take me to You with nothing missed out and without having neglected anything.' Then he went to Madina and addressed the people. He said, 'People! Sunan have been laid down for you. Obligations have been placed upon you. You have been left with a clear way unless you lead people astray right and left.' He struck one of his hands on the other and then said, 'Take care lest you destroy the ayat of stoning so that one will say, "We do not find two hadds in the Book of Allah." The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, stoned, so we have stoned. By He in Whose Hand my self is, had it not been that people would say that umar ibn al-Khattab has added to the Book of Allah ta-ala, we would have written it, "The full-grown man and the full-grown woman, stone them absolutely." We have certainly recited that.'" Malik said, "Yahya ibn Said said Said ibn al-Musayyab said, 'Dhu'l-Hijja had not passed before umar was murdered, may Allah have mercy on him.' " Yahya said that he had heard Malik say, "As for his words 'The full-grown man and the full-grown woman' he meant, 'The man and the woman who have been married, stone them absolutely.' "  (Book #41, Hadith #41.1.10) MALIK MUWATA

This is abrogated according to your leader al-Tusi. `Umar also believed it to be abrogated but he feared the people would stop acting according to the ruling if they no longer see this verse and he didn't add it because in his own words it is not a part of the Qur'an and if he writes it down he'd be adding a Mansoukh verse and the people will never accept this. Also this verse was very popular among the companions and several of them knew it, yet it was not written in Allah's book because they all knew it was abrogated nor was the Qur'an in a book format in `Umar's time anyway.


Don't Shia say that `Ali wrote a book in which he included the abrogated and abrogating verses and the Tafseer on the side? Is this all Tahreef for you guys? I doubt it, so the same applies in this case.

[silentkiller]

yes hussayn bro he did he wanted to add some verses in HolyQuran nauzubillah

@Hani

brother i am not asking what tusi said coz what you r writing has nothing to do with this narration
as its abt mighty hzrat umar's belief(and his glorious followers)

fst point is if the verse is abbrogated umar would never say this BY TAKING OATH OF ALLAH SWT
=> By He in Whose Hand my self is, had it not been that people would say that umar ibn al-Khattab has added to the Book of Allah ta-ala, we would have written it

this pure crystal clear umar wanted to add this verse in HOLYQURAN

AS HE SAID would say that umar ibn al-Khattab has added to the Book of Allah ta-ala, we would have written it[/b]

PROOVES => IF PEOPLE DONOT HAVE CRITICIZED UMAR FOR ADDING IN BOOK OF ALLAH SWT UMAR WOULD ADD THIS VERSE IN THE ALLAH'S BOOK nauzubillah!

its clear HAZRAT UMAR WANTED TO WRITE IT IN ALLAH'S BOOK BUT BECAUSE OF PEOPLE'S CRITICIZM HE DIDNT BUT IN REAL HE WANTED TO ADD WHICH HE CLEARS IN NARRATION BY TAKING ALLAH'S OATH THAT HE WANTED TO ADD IN HOLYQURAN nauzubillah!


WHICH IS CLEAR IN NARRATION....IF UMAR DIDNOT BELIEVE IN TEHREEF HE COULD HAVE SIMPLY SAY THIS VERSE IS ABROGATED AND WE WONT WRITE

BUT HERE UMAR IS CLEAR ABOUT HIS BELIEVES THAT HE WANTED TO WRITE THE VERSE IN ALLAH'S BOOK

I m sorry but your explanation is contradictory to your caliph's beliefs...any other person except bogus hani?
who can tell me why hazrat umar wanted to add Allah's book?

why hazrat umar believed in tehreef of HolyQuran?

[Farid]

Welcome to the boards brother silentkiller.

The narration that you quoted can only be understood in the light of historical context. You see, it was during the collection of the Quran that Omar told Zaid bin Thabit to not include this verse. This is found in the authentic narration through Katheer bin Al Salt in Musnad Ahmad and Al Sunan Al Kabeer by Al Nasa'ee.

So it makes no sense to accuse Omar of wanting to make Tahreef when he is the original cause for removing an abrogated verse.

Secondly, if one keeps an abrogated verse in the Quran, it is not Tahreef. It is a mistake and it is haram, however, it is still the words of Allah (subhanahu wa taala), and the meaning has not changed.

In this light, we understand that Omar feared the people since such an action would be incorrect, while he didn't have to fear anyone in his original action of not including the verse.

[Mythbuster1]

Asalam alaikum brothersbro hani has explained as well as bro farid excellently even I myself WASNT clear on the subject but thanx to the brothers I fully undestand

[silentkiller]

Farid
Bro i wont reply you here coz admin of this forum is foul mouth dishonest and cutt conversations then lock the topics  deleting the comments as mr hani did so on this and another forum so i decided not to post on this forum

i wanted to delete my account due to dishonesty of the admin of this forum
but i dont know why they didnt deleted my account till now

we can continue this debate here and http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235027484-twelvershia-net-website-and-forum-of-cowards/#entry2763560
and i am giving you the reply there before the admin of this forum delete my comments and use fouls against shias and their narrations
please come here so we debate on this narration and tehreef of Quran in light of shia sunni sources
thanks.

[Hani]

Farid
Bro i wont reply you here coz admin of this forum is foul mouth dishonest and cutt conversations then lock the topics  deleting the comments as mr hani did so on this and another forum so i decided not to post on this forum

i wanted to delete my account due to dishonesty of the admin of this forum
but i dont know why they didnt deleted my account till now

we can continue this debate here and http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235027484-twelvershia-net-website-and-forum-of-cowards/#entry2763560
and i am giving you the reply there before the admin of this forum delete my comments and use fouls against shias and their narrations
please come here so we debate on this narration and tehreef of Quran in light of shia sunni sources
thanks.

You have my guarantee that I won't cut-off your comment and all the other matters you falsely claimed, now stop being a coward.



Also my rudeness is only in reply to yours, as you were the one who wrote:

if i started posting ahlsunnah beliefs here you guys will start screaming :p

mr imam ali dont worry please fst tell me are the fatwas of your scholars hujja upon you?
if yes so i start showing the kufar of your forefathers?
2nd donkey narrated in shia book so?where is the chain?the part of hadis is mursal and zaieef
3rd what if i show donkey narrating in your book will you send curse on your face for that?

That's what merits a rude reply.


Then you continued as can be seen here:
http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/various-scandalous-and-corrupt-beliefs-of-twelver-shias/15/


Where you wrote things such as:


"you are loosing your temper because you are a confused coward person who cannot answer please explain"



"why are you are so scared to reply me you said animals speaking in the narration is the fabrication etc pointing towards the narration of alkafi
please come with proove instead of bogus replies"


"plz this time answer like a man instead of behaving like a shy little girl"


"donot worry i can spread the list too of sahih narrations will be quadrible then your bogus copy pastes, which will make you spat on faces of hazrat abu bakr umar usman hz aisha mawia hz abu hurera the glorious father of cats and many other companions+ bukhari muslim etc as per you said"


So basically, you're the last person to talk about rudeness.

[silentkiller]

MR HANI you are the one who is coward who locked the threads if you were not a coward you never would use foul mouth and lock the thread to bann me there

so you are the one who banned me not me so you are a coward not i then you deleted my comments
shame on you for lieing

[Hani]

MR HANI you are the one who is coward who locked the threads if you were not a coward you never would use foul mouth and lock the thread to bann me there

so you are the one who banned me not me so you are a coward not i then you deleted my comments
shame on you for lieing

I didn't ban you, so you are the liar, if I banned you then how are you posting now?


Also What I copied above is evidence you were rude first not me.

[silentkiller]

hani you are so big coward and you are the liar why you locked the thread? who locked the thread? of various scandlous beliefs of shia?

who deleted my comments of this thread?
me or you?

m i the admin or u?
what a shameless liar r u

you banned me of thread so i couldnt post there then deleted my comments of this thread this equals bann shame one you ladyboy coward

[silentkiller]

you called shias fools then you said shia will spat on their narrations i say you are a shameless liar then i responded you in the way you did and you locked the thread
and delete the comments

so u the one who is rude and locked the thread you filthy low level liar nasbi

[Hani]

hani you are so big coward why you locked the thread? who locked the thread? of various scandlous beliefs of shia?

who deleted my comments of this thread?

you banned me of thread so i couldnt post there then deleted my comments of this thread this equals bann shame one you ladyboy coward

I locked the thread because of the language that was being used, also because as I wrote previously on that same thread I do not approve of its contents as they needed revision.


Even on ShiaChat they're making fun of you, look at abu Rumaysah's reply:
http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235027484-twelvershia-net-website-and-forum-of-cowards/#entry2763560

[Hani]

you called shias fools then you said shia will spat on their narrations i say you are a shameless liar then i responded you in the way you did and you locked the thread
and delete the comments

so u the one who is rude and locked the thread you filthy low level liar nasbi

Nope, you started it first at post #19 as I said.


The post you'r talking about is #29 (After your rudeness).

[silentkiller]

abu ramysh is sunni not shia nor his comment effects the absurdities and narrations i quoted from your books

and what you said shia will spat on their narrations then i responded you in the way you did i said if i show u your narrations you r going to spat on face of bkr umr usman mawia aisha hfza hurera etc
as per you said

what a garbage debater r u who said if donkey narrates in ahlsunnah book its a miracle if its in shia book its rediculous then you locked the thread to save yourself you couldnt even replied the simple question i was asking lolz

if u were a man u never locked the thread and delete my comments of current thread unlock the thread plz if you are a man and give me in written appology in my indbox that you wont delete my comments and ban me of thread by locking it
thanks.

[silentkiller]

hani you accepted that you locked the thread coz the sentence i used was according to what you used to me

you have proven yourself a coward

[silentkiller]

Farid
its clear in the narration hazrat umar didnot said the verse is abrogated, but he clearly explaining it as the part of Allah's book not as the abrogated one
 
otherwise there were other verses too which were abrogated according to ahlsunnah narrations hzrat umar did not named those verses to include but this one with stoning for no reason no sense

which clears hazrat umar wanted to add this verse in holybook....and it is called tehreef what ibn kseer said or nisai contradicts the statement of umar mentioned in the narration
 
hazrat umar is cleared in his words he feared people otherwise he wanted to add in Allah's book...which is called tehreef (note hz umar is taking ALLAH'S OATH that by Allah he would add in Allah's book)

otherwise he could clear we wont add its an abrogated verse which he didnt but he said IF PEOPLE WONT CRITICIZE ME BY Allah I WRITE IT IN QURAN=TEHREEF NAUZUBILLAH
 
 
other thing quote you(farid) yourself said
''Secondly, if one keeps an abrogated verse in the Quran, it is not Tahreef. It is a mistake and it is haram''

you refuted your ownself farid because hazrat umar said
 
IF PEOPLE DONOT HAVE CRITICIZED UMAR FOR ADDING IN BOOK OF Allah SWT, BY Allah SWT, UMAR WOULD ADD THIS VERSE IN THE Allah'S BOOK nauzubillah!
 
means you accepted hazrat umar wanted to do the haraam mistake, coz he said IF PEOPLE DONOT CRITICIZE ME I WRITE IT IN Allah'S BOOK
 
SUCCESSFULLY PROOVE HAZRAT UMAR WANT TO DO HARAM WORK AND TEHREEF IN Allah'S BOOK AS PER YOU SAID.

[Farid]

Excuse me brother, I am slightly busy now, inshallah I will respond to you later tonight or tomorrow.

To all participants: please calm down so we can have an academic discussion, barak Allah feekum.

Farid
its clear in the narration hazrat umar didnot said the verse is abrogated, but he clearly explaining it as the part of Allah's book not as the abrogated one
 
otherwise there were other verses too which were abrogated according to ahlsunnah narrations hzrat umar did not named those verses to include but this one with stoning for no reason no sense

which clears hazrat umar wanted to add this verse in holybook....and it is called tehreef what ibn kseer said or nisai contradicts the statement of umar mentioned in the narration
 
hazrat umar is cleared in his words he feared people otherwise he wanted to add in Allah's book...which is called tehreef (note hz umar is taking ALLAH'S OATH that by Allah he would add in Allah's book)

otherwise he could clear we wont add its an abrogated verse which he didnt but he said IF PEOPLE WONT CRITICIZE ME BY Allah I WRITE IT IN QURAN=TEHREEF NAUZUBILLAH
 
 
other thing quote you(farid) yourself said
''Secondly, if one keeps an abrogated verse in the Quran, it is not Tahreef. It is a mistake and it is haram''

you refuted your ownself farid because hazrat umar said
 
IF PEOPLE DONOT HAVE CRITICIZED UMAR FOR ADDING IN BOOK OF Allah SWT, BY Allah SWT, UMAR WOULD ADD THIS VERSE IN THE Allah'S BOOK nauzubillah!
 
means you accepted hazrat umar wanted to do the haraam mistake, coz he said IF PEOPLE DONOT CRITICIZE ME I WRITE IT IN Allah'S BOOK
 
SUCCESSFULLY PROOVE HAZRAT UMAR WANT TO DO HARAM WORK AND TEHREEF IN Allah'S BOOK AS PER YOU SAID.

[Optimus Prime]

When Farid is in action.

Watch out.

[Ameen]

Sehih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509 :

Narrated by Zaid bin Thabit,

Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the! Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project. "Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which 'Umar had realized." Then Abu Bakr said (to me). 'You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. So you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur'an and collect it in one book)." By Allah If they had ordered me to shift one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur'an. Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" Abu Bakr replied, "By Allah, it is a good project." Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allah opened my chest for what He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and 'Umar. So I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat At-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. The Verse is: 'Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty..(till the end of Surat-Baraa' (At-Tauba) (9.128-129) Then the complete manuscripts (copy) of the Qur'an remained with Abu Bakr till he died, then with 'Umar till the end of his life, and then with Hafsa, the daughter of 'Umar.

Brothers what do you think about this narration??? And note the following,

"I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?",

Also make a note of,

"Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?"

If this narration is strong and this is exactly what happened then, what is "bidda" Is it,

"doing or getting involved in something that the Prophet (pbuh) didn't do???".

[Ameen]

Have a look at the following narration as well,

Sehih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 61, Number 510 :
Narrated by Anas bin Malik
Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)

Brothers make a note of the following,

"Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an",

Differences did exist right at the beginning. Now if we discuss those differences today and how the Quran was compiled and set up then, this should remain a discussion and not turn in to an accusation that, so and so believe in Tehreef e Quran.