Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni

[Optimus Prime]

English is not your first language is it?

[sameer]

brother i have the same reply which is for farid, and we r not discussing about burning people now nor hz ali a.s done haram work like bkr umr as your brothers accepted for umar, so plz stickup to the discussion of tehreef which your beloved caliph wanted to do instead of bogus self explanation replies.

dear, if you read my reply wid open eyes, i was not discussing burning people too.. u said "he wanted to do haram work" and i just showed you who actually did it.. let me explain in simple way.. if i want to kill some one.. that would not b considered a haram act until i do.. hope you get the point which i'm still in highly doubt ..

@farid.. i bet you he will never ever be able to give u an answer because he has already ended up the "academic debate" by declaring himself a winner.. it shows how much he is aware of the word "academic" ..  he knows v well if he does answer, these allegations will vanish in the wind..

[silentkiller]

brother i have the same reply which is for farid, and we r not discussing about burning people now nor hz ali a.s done haram work like bkr umr as your brothers accepted for umar, so plz stickup to the discussion of tehreef which your beloved caliph wanted to do instead of bogus self explanation replies.

dear, if you read my reply wid open eyes, i was not discussing burning people too.. u said "he wanted to do haram work" and i just showed you who actually did it.. let me explain in simple way.. if i want to kill some one.. that would not b considered a haram act until i do.. hope you get the point which i'm still in highly doubt ..

@farid.. i bet you he will never ever be able to give u an answer because he has already ended up the "academic debate" by declaring himself a winner.. it shows how much he is aware of the word "academic" ..  he knows v well if he does answer, these allegations will vanish in the wind..

mr sameer if you have so much courage and excitement to discuss on burning people which you are talking about without any logic or proofs for diverting the topic we will deal it afterwords fst stick up to the topic then i will not go without ending your excitment if thats the way i can list other haram works of umar too excluding the topic of tehreef but fst deal wth the
topic of tehreef
and btw killing is not a BELIEF big LOLZ!but tehreef is a belief with intention if some thinks there is verse to be edited in Quran nauzubillah!like hazrat umar
so for now stick yourself to the topic, and answer the points i mentioned
3rd did i said i am a winner? i just quoted what your brother has said ask your brother why its haram to
make additions in Quran? did Allah swt said to add the verses in Quran? quote @farid.. i bet you he will never ever be able to give u an answer lolz!from start  to now you can read the comments its me who is asking the question about the narration you are not answering not me, when you guys will not answer what i am asking
and your own words contradict yourself how to continue it further? so fst deal with the issue
i also have given the questions which prooves the verse is not abrogated
it clearly prooves the akida e tehreef of umar

to save one caliph allegedly you put blame of haram on ur others what an image of sunni islam you are presenting
please proove me wrong rather then bogus replies of yours which are insulting your own akida caliphs.

[Farid]

@ Sameer:

I'm very much aware of our brother's habits, but thanks anyhow.


@ Silentkiller:

Brother, have you not noticed that I am playing along by starting off my responses with: "For the sake of the argument..."?

If you're only interested in "winning" an argument instead of making da'awa and convincing those that you disagree with, then I will happily concede.

@ Everyone else:

I have found a third opinion. Ibn Hajar and Al-Suyuti seem to have missed out on the narration of Katheer bin Al-Salt in Musnad Ahmad. In other words, they only have the narration of Sa'eed bin Al-Musayyab that states that Omar said that he wanted to add the verse. They claimed that Omar believed that it was a part of the Qur'an, but that this is not enough to include it in the finalized Qur'an, since the Sahaba agreed that two witnesses are needed to affirm that a verse is part of the finalized Qur'an.

I've also previously discuss this matter with Hani in regards to a fourth opinion about this matter. It is that some early scholars like Yahya bin Ma'een reject the narration of Sa'eed bin Al-Musayab from Omar since he was pretty young at the time.

Wallahu a'alam.

[Taha]

Please note that this clown silentkiller does not represent me or other Shias.  Don't let his nonsense detract from the real arguments for tahreef.


He has called me a bastard nasibi and ass hole in a private message.  He also said that I lick the anus of `Umar b. Al Khattab.  On ShiaChat he has named me as a Sunni that is pretending to be a Shia so that I may misguide the Shia of Ali (a.s)


 


[Screenshots of the messages are available upon request.]

[silentkiller]

lthis mr taha is defending umar ibn khtab in my indbox hehehe and disturbing to distract me
i have no issue if u show it, mr taha and come with your true identity if someones come to me
with fake identity and defend sunni akida for no reason he deserved to be called what i said to u
now you may show screenshots to whole world i have no issue, i didnt misbehaved on the forum till now
btw
so brother farid you didnot answer any of my other points, which prooved the verse is not abrogated?
2ndly read the image i attached and read you didnot said ''forsake of argument'' but u accepted its haram

1 if the verse is abrogated as per umar and Allah swt has abrogated it who is omar to REadd this in KITABALLAH without Allah's permission?
2 HolyQuran is the only book which is free from additions and tehreef  and cannot be edited so there is no reason for  someone to criticize someone  for writing something in his personal tafsir ETC but only a muslim will criticiz you for making editions in HolyQuran as its obvious in the narration that criticizm of other muslims is mentioned on umar for adding the verse by umar, so umar is clear in the narration he wanted to add the verse
3 umar wanted to add only one abrogated verse in Quran doesnt make any sense
is clear tehreef

regarding its chain narrators r sahih
http://library.islamweb.net/hadith/display_hbook.php?bk_no=19&hid=1482&pid=3571

all the narrators r sahih, 2nd
umar didnot considered it as the abrogated verse

حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ مَنِيعٍ، حَدَّثَنَا إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ يُوسُفَ الأَزْرَقُ، عَنْ دَاوُدَ بْنِ أَبِي هِنْدٍ، عَنْ سَعِيدِ بْنِ الْمُسَيَّبِ، عَنْ عُمَرَ بْنِ الْخَطَّابِ، قَالَ رَجَمَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَرَجَمَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ وَرَجَمْتُ وَلَوْلاَ أَنِّي أَكْرَهُ أَنْ أَزِيدَ فِي كِتَابِ اللَّهِ لَكَتَبْتُهُ فِي الْمُصْحَفِ فَإِنِّي قَدْ خَشِيتُ أَنْ تَجِيءَ أَقْوَامٌ فَلاَ يَجِدُونَهُ فِي كِتَابِ اللَّهِ فَيَكْفُرُونَ بِهِ ‏.‏ قَالَ وَفِي الْبَابِ عَنْ عَلِيٍّ ‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو عِيسَى حَدِيثُ عُمَرَ حَدِيثٌ حَسَنٌ صَحِيحٌ وَرُوِيَ مِنْ غَيْرِ وَجْهٍ عَنْ عُمَرَ ‏.‏
tirmizi kitab al hadud
Grade   : Sahih (Darussalam)   
Reference    : Jami` at-Tirmidhi 1431
In-book reference    : Book 17, Hadith 11
English translation    : Vol. 3, Book 15, Hadith 1431


Malik related to me that Yahya ibn Said heard Said ibn al-Musayyab say, "When umar ibn al-Khattab came from Mina, he made his camel kneel at al-Abtah, and then he gathered a pile of small stones and cast his cloak over them and dropped to the ground. Then he raised his hands to the sky and said, 'O Allah! I have become old and my strength has weakened. My flock is scattered. Take me to You with nothing missed out and without having neglected anything.' Then he went to Madina and addressed the people. He said, 'People! Sunan have been laid down for you. Obligations have been placed upon you. You have been left with a clear way unless you lead people astray right and left.' He struck one of his hands on the other and then said, 'Take care lest you destroy the ayat of stoning so that one will say, "We do not find two hadds in the Book of Allah." The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, stoned, so we have stoned. By He in Whose Hand my self is, had it not been that people would say that umar ibn al-Khattab has added to the Book of Allah ta-ala, we would have written it, "The full-grown man and the full-grown woman, stone them absolutely." We have certainly recited that.'" Malik said, "Yahya ibn Said said Said ibn al-Musayyab said, 'Dhu'l-Hijja had not passed before umar was murdered, may Allah have mercy on him.' " Yahya said that he had heard Malik say, "As for his words 'The full-grown man and the full-grown woman' he meant, 'The man and the woman who have been married, stone them absolutely.' "  (Book #41, Hadith #41.1.10) MALIK MUWATA

its clear now umar has cleared he didnt added it COZ ITS MAKROOH, NOTICE NOT HARAM AS PER UMAR TO MAKE TEHREEF SO NOW ITS ALL CLEAR UMAR CONSIDER IT THE PART OF HOLYQURAN
AND HE WANTED TO ADD THE VERSETILL END OF HIS LIFE UMAR WANTED TO MAKE THE TEHREE IN HOLY QURAN NAUZUBILLAH BUT DIDNT ONLY COZ OF FEAR OF PEOPLE NOT BY FEAR OF ALLAH SWT, ALONG WITH THAT UMAR TOOK OATH OF ALLAH SWT  IF PEOPLE DIDNT CRITICIZE HIM HE WANTED TO TEHREEF THE ALLAH'S BOOK NAUZUBILLAH WHICH WE HAVE PROOVED FROM MALIK MUWATA AND HE DIED IN SUCH STATE TILL HIS OLD AGE HE KEPT BELIEVING IN TEHREEF E QURAN.

[Taha]

lthis mr taha is defending umar ibn khtab in my indbox hehehe
i have no issue if u show it, mr taha and come with your true identity if someones come to me
with fake identity and defend sunni akida for no reason he deserved to be called what i said to u
now you may show screenshots to whole world i have no issue, i didnt misbehaved on the forum till now

I never defending `Umar b. Al Khattab, I said that hadeeth you quoted was da`eef [weak] and I said that Farid or Hani could give you a better analysis than I could.  That isn't defending Sunni aqeedah [there is no kaf in the word aqeedah, by the way -- it is a qaf].  I was honestly trying to help you strengthen your arguments, but it is apparent that you have no use for such things. 


I'd be glad to post the screenshots but I am missing two.  I don't save messages in my outbox generally, so I only have the messages you sent to me and one of the three that I sent to you.  If you wish to post screenshots of exactly what I said to you, go ahead.  I doubt anybody would think that they [the messages] show me defending Sunni aqeedah or the person of `Umar b. Al Khattab, rather they show that I curse `Umar.  If cursing him counts as defending him, well, you're his biggest fan.  Also, why should I post under my real name if you don't?  That's quite a ridiculous argument, honestly.  The point of online forums is anonymous discussion with people all over the world.  This isn't Facebook where I post my real information, pictures, and discuss my real life.


Anyways, I'm done discussing with you.  It's a huge waste of my time.  I promised a friend that I would memorize a new Surah and recite it for her tomorrow, so toodles. 


Mods: Apologies for the off-topic posts.  I will cease responding to this person on this thread if he decides to continue.

[Hani]

Brother silentkiller,


Did you send brother Taha this private message?

[silentkiller]

Brother silentkiller,


Did you send brother Taha this private message?

MASHAALLAH HANI, btw mr taha was disturbing me in the indbox and defending umar bin khtab as his advocate for no reason
and wanting me to take the discussion out of thread to indbox, by messaging me for no reason
+ i think this message have nothing to do with the forum coz i didnt used any bad words on this forum u may check so btw
thanks for exposing your ownself that mr taha is your account you cowards cannot debate shames be upon you for playing filthy tricks to get out of discussion
ALHAMDULILLAH I SUCCESSFULLY PROOVED UMAR BIN KHATAB A KAFIR FOR BELIEVING IN TEHREEF E QURAN SAHIHULISNAD,

[Optimus Prime]

Brother silentkiller,


Did you send brother Taha this private message?

MASHAALLAH HANI
thanks for exposing your ownself that mr taha is your account you cowards cannot debate shames be upon you for playing filthy tricks to get out of discussion
ALHAMDULILLAH I SUCCESSFULLY PROOVED UMAR BIN KHATAB A KAFIR FOR BELIEVING IN TEHREEF E QURAN SAHIHULISNAD,

Or maybe Hani was sent a screenshot of that message.

Umar ibn Khattab (RA) is your superior. Love and respect him little dude.

[Hani]

MASHAALLAH HANI
thanks for exposing your ownself that mr taha is your account you cowards cannot debate shames be upon you for playing filthy tricks to get out of discussion
ALHAMDULILLAH I SUCCESSFULLY PROOVED UMAR BIN KHATAB A KAFIR FOR BELIEVING IN TEHREEF E QURAN SAHIHULISNAD,

So you did send it. In that case I am going to have to warn you to please not send any offensive messages to any of our members in the future. I will overlook this for the time being.

[Optimus Prime]

MASHAALLAH HANI
thanks for exposing your ownself that mr taha is your account you cowards cannot debate shames be upon you for playing filthy tricks to get out of discussion
ALHAMDULILLAH I SUCCESSFULLY PROOVED UMAR BIN KHATAB A KAFIR FOR BELIEVING IN TEHREEF E QURAN SAHIHULISNAD,

So you did send it. In that case I am going to have to warn you to please not send any offensive messages to any of our members in the future. I will overlook this for the time being.

lol, he ended up admitting he was responsible for sending that PM.

Shaabash.

[silentkiller]

mr hani stop your second account with name of taha from pvt msging me to disturb& to defend umar ibn khtab as i dont need them
thanks.
and please conclude it if any one can reply and save hazrat umar from tehreef plz reply my comments and questions
as you urself accepted hazrat umar died with haram akida of making tehreef in Quran, chain is sahih too

from 2+days i have no logical replies from all of you but started using filthy tricks to track me up in indbox on the topic to move away from thread to indboxes
musayab was a fukaha not baby, and he is mentioned sika fukaha sahih in the chain

so i conclude saying this from comments of yours
brother farid has accepted hazrat umar died on haram akida of making additions in HolyQuran, and i prooved it he wanted it to be the verse of HolyQuran till he died and for that he took OATH OF ALLAH FOR MAKING TEHREEF
2nd one more conclusion from bro farid he said umar didnt even knew how to compile Quran till end of his life you may read all previous comments.

[silentkiller]

Or maybe Hani was sent a screenshot of that message.

Umar ibn Khattab (RA) is your superior. Love and respect him little dude.

IMAM ALI haaahahaha save superior hazrat umar ibn khatab from tehreef, hzrat umar agreed Ali a.s was the best qazi not him, Ali a.s called him a liar sinful+treachrous hehehe

btw
and superior mighty hzrat umar wanted to make tehreef of Quran till end and as per u guys he had a haram akida and he is a kafir for believing it hehehe lolz!
story ended hz umar  is not proven our superior but has been prooved a superior kafir as per u heheheh lolz!

[Taha]

So, I said I wasn't going to respond, but I have to, this is too much.


First off, I am laughing my rear end off at being called the second account of Hani.  Perhaps you should look at my posts on this forum and think long and hard about what you have said.  Would Hani really curse the Shaykhayn and their daughters?  I have on this forum, and I think he even gave me a warning.  Would Hani call himself rude?


Secondly, I wasn't "disturbing" you.  I saw that you posted on ShiaChat about how cowardly people on this forum are.  I messaged you that Farid and Hani are the people you should talk with if you're interested in learning the Sunni perspective; not everyone on this forum is an expert in their religion.  I was trying to help you, but whatever dude.  And I haven't even responded to your last insulting PM, so I don't get how I'm disturbing you ...

Or maybe Hani was sent a screenshot of that message.

I sent 4 screenshots to both Hani and Farid (Farid only because I thought he might get a laugh out of it); 3 of his messages and one of mine.  I could, theoretically, post a screenshot of when I sent the message to Hani (with timestamp and everything) but I don't particularly care to derail this thread more than it already has been.


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Anyways, back to memorizing that surah.  I need to impress this girl so I can get married and Farid can stop with the jokes.

[Hani]

IMAM ALI haaahahaha save superior hazrat umar ibn khatab from tehreef, hzrat umar agreed Ali a.s was the best qazi not him, Ali a.s called him a liar sinful+treachrous hehehe

btw
and superior mighty hzrat umar wanted to make tehreef of Quran till end and as per u guys he had a haram akida and he is a kafir for believing it hehehe lolz!

According to the screen shot you took, it seems Farid said that adding an abrogated verse is Haram not "Tahreef".


My question for all you guys, is writing down an abrogated Qur'anic verse in the Suhuf before the Qur'an was transformed into book form and before they agreed upon its Rasm during `Uthman's Imamah, is this also Haram? While knowing that the collected Suhuf themselves contained abrogated verses and even the `Uthmani Mushaf contains abrogated verses.

[silentkiller]

IMAM ALI haaahahaha save superior hazrat umar ibn khatab from tehreef, hzrat umar agreed Ali a.s was the best qazi not him, Ali a.s called him a liar sinful+treachrous hehehe

btw
and superior mighty hzrat umar wanted to make tehreef of Quran till end and as per u guys he had a haram akida and he is a kafir for believing it hehehe lolz!

According to the screen shot you took, it seems Farid said that adding an abrogated verse is Haram not "Tahreef".


My question for all you guys, is writing down an abrogated Qur'anic verse in the Suhuf before the Qur'an was transformed into book form and before they agreed upon its Rasm during `Uthman's Imamah, is this also Haram? While knowing that the collected Suhuf themselves contained abrogated verses and even the `Uthmani Mushaf contains abrogated verses.

Allah swt has abrogated the verse but as per umar verse isnt abrogated its visible in narration you are failed to answer any of the points second thing is

it was not about those days the narration clears its in the old age of umar still believed to edit the Quran with a verse without permission of Allah swt

who is he to add?

3rd is umar has cleared in the narration he considered it the verse of Quran and he wanted to add it but he didnt due to fear of people not due to fear of Allah swt

4th thing is farid himself accepted he died with the haram akida, and obviously if you add the verses in HolyQuran people will criticize you for tehreef no person will criticize you for adding your own book and tafsir but the Quran which is mentioned in the narration

5th thing is umar has clarified he didnot consider haram to make tehreef e Quran other wise he will add in Quran but he didnt coz of people will say umar has edited the KITABALLAH narrations are pretty clear.

6th its no sense of keeping one abrogated verse in Quran AS KITABALLAH, because Allah swt has omitted it and umar is no one to reaDD it

7th its cleared umar was doing this against messenger sas of Allah swt and he died with a belief
which opposed Allah swt and messenger sas pbuh

Umar said: "When this verse came down I approached the Prophet peace be upon him so I asked him: Should I write it down?' It is as if he hated that" Then Umar said: "Cant you see that if the old man if he commits adultery he does not get the whip, and that if the young man if he commits adultery he gets stoned?" (Ibn Hajar Al Asqalani, Fathul Bari, Kitab: Al Hudood, Bab: Al I'tiraaf bil Zina, Commentary on Hadith no. 6327, Source)

so conclusion its clearly prooved umar wanted to do tehreef in Quran without permission of Allah swt but he didnt coz of fear of people and he died in such state of having belief of making edition in Quran till his death as his age is clear iin the narration as he took oath of Allah swt for doing it story ended.

[silentkiller]

So, I said I wasn't going to respond, but I have to, this is too much.


First off, I am laughing my rear end off at being called the second account of Hani.  Perhaps you should look at my posts on this forum and think long and hard about what you have said.  Would Hani really curse the Shaykhayn and their daughters?  I have on this forum, and I think he even gave me a warning.  Would Hani call himself rude?


Secondly, I wasn't "disturbing" you.  I saw that you posted on ShiaChat about how cowardly people on this forum are.  I messaged you that Farid and Hani are the people you should talk with if you're interested in learning the Sunni perspective; not everyone on this forum is an expert in their religion.  I was trying to help you, but whatever dude.  And I haven't even responded to your last insulting PM, so I don't get how I'm disturbing you ...

Or maybe Hani was sent a screenshot of that message.

I sent 4 screenshots to both Hani and Farid (Farid only because I thought he might get a laugh out of it); 3 of his messages and one of mine.  I could, theoretically, post a screenshot of when I sent the message to Hani (with timestamp and everything) but I don't particularly care to derail this thread more than it already has been.


---------------------------------------------------


Anyways, back to memorizing that surah.  I need to impress this girl so I can get married and Farid can stop with the jokes.

hahaahahahah dear advocate of umar ibn khtab show your posts in ahlsunnah madrassas and come with your real identity u 3rd class coward hiding in burqa lolz.

[Hani]

Okay, I have some further questions and Farid can build on these questions which I am asking, Shia scholars say that `Ali wrote in the Qur'an the abrogated verses, such as here:



al-‘Allamah Ja’afar al-Subhani says in “‘Aqaiduna al-Falsafiyah wal-Quraniyah” pg.120-121:


[What is said about ‘Ali (as) collecting the Quran after the passing of the Prophet (SAWS), this means that he wrote the Quran in a way that is identical to how to was revealed, and he placed the abrogated verses before the abrogating verses as al-Majlisi stated in “Bihar al-Anwar”]


What is your view on `Ali writing these abrogated verses?

[silentkiller]

Okay, I have some further questions and Farid can build on these questions which I am asking, Shia scholars say that `Ali wrote in the Qur'an the abrogated verses, such as here:



al-‘Allamah Ja’afar al-Subhani says in “‘Aqaiduna al-Falsafiyah wal-Quraniyah” pg.120-121:


[What is said about ‘Ali (as) collecting the Quran after the passing of the Prophet (SAWS), this means that he wrote the Quran in a way that is identical to how to was revealed, and he placed the abrogated verses before the abrogating verses as al-Majlisi stated in “Bihar al-Anwar”]


What is your view on `Ali writing these abrogated verses?

i have clearly prooved umar didnot considered it as an abrogated verse, but as the verse of HolyQuran thats why he cleared he feared the people that people will criticize him for tehreef otherwise he would have wrote it in the book of Allah BY ALLAH SAID BY UMAR, and its pointless to discuss when you urself accepted that its haram akida of adding verses in HolyQuran even they r abrogated(even i proved the verse as per umar is not abrogated), so its as per ur beliefs as u issued the challenge to shias but couldnt save umar from tehreef
and i also have cleared umar didnt consider tehreef e Quran haram, but i have no responses from the points i mentioned from anyone of you.