Disproving the Argument that Mutah is in the Qur’an

[MuslimK]

http://www.twelvershia.net/2015/02/14/mutah-in-the-quran/

Edit: Link fixed.

[Rationalist]

The verse they use 4:24 to promote Muta actually refutes it.

And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. (4:24)

The verse is forbidding us to get married on the basis of desire.

[lotfilms]

Salam brother Rationalist, how did you conclude that it's haram to marry from desire from that ayah?  It says مسافحين which are people who do out-right zina with random people (as opposed to أخدان, which is also prohibited, which is similar to girlfriend/boy friend in which you have a certain person that you do zina with)

So it forbids doing zina with random people (and another ayah forbids zina both with random people and zina with a specific person).  How does this forbid Muslims from getting married out of desire?

wallahu a'lam

[Rationalist]

That's your interpretation for  مُسَافِحِينَ because the difference to the 12er is whether to make a niyah or not. The fiqh of your sect allows a person to get temporarily married for only the sake of  مُسَافِحِينَ.  Whereas the Quran is asking us to be chaste. I mean in Muta you can have lust for a women, ask her to marry you for one day, and that's about it.

Take this ahadith for example.


الحسن بن محبوب ، عن إسحاق بن جرير قال : قلت لابي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) : إن عندنا بالكوفة امرأة معروفة بالفجور ، أيحل أن أتزوجها متعة ؟ قال : فقال : رفعت راية ؟ قلت : لا ، لو رفعت راية أخذها السلطان ، قال : نعم تزوجها متعة ، قال : ثم أصغى إلى بعض مواليه فأسر إليه شيئا ، فلقيت مولاه فقلت له : ما قال لك ؟ فقال : انما قال لي : ولو رفعت راية ما كان عليه في فتزويجها شئ إنما يخرجها من حرام إلى حلال .



1 – [at-Tahdhib] al-Hasan b. Mahbub from Ishaq b. Jarir.  He said: I said to Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام: In Kufa there is a woman with us who is known for promiscuity.  Is it allowed to marry her in mut`a?  He said: So he said: Did she raise a standard?  I said: No, had she raised a standard the Sultan would have arrested her.  He said: Yes, marry her in mut`a.  He said: Then he listened to one of his clients and confided something to him.  So I met his client and said to him: What did he say to you?  So he said: He only said to me: Even if she had raised a standard there would not be anything against the marriage. It only takes her out from a haram to a halal.




Now compare it to this verse of the Quran.
The fornicator does not marry except a [female] fornicator or polytheist, and none marries her except a fornicator or a polytheist, and that has been made unlawful to the believers. (quran 24:3)

[lotfilms]

That's your interpretation for  مُسَافِحِينَ

No, that's not my interpretation:
http://islamqa.info/en/1114
^Salafi website

Brother the problem here is that you're using an English translation of the Quran to come up with a ruling (saying that it's not permissible to get married based on desire). 

[Hani]

One of the fundamental reasons for Muslims getting married is desire/lust.

I would actually class Mut`ah as being from the "Akhdaan" or secret lovers category, I do this based on my observation.

It is sufficient for this verse to mention Ihsan (fortification) to cancel out the temporary marriage argument.

[Rationalist]

That's your interpretation for  مُسَافِحِينَ

No, that's not my interpretation:
http://islamqa.info/en/1114
^Salafi website

Brother the problem here is that you're using an English translation of the Quran to come up with a ruling (saying that it's not permissible to get married based on desire). 

Why are you trying to sugar coat and censor  the flexibility of  Muta An-Nisa ? Also there is still a problem even after we take the Salafi website's interpretation.

Read this part "Muhsanaat [translated as “chaste”] means that they should be pure, not indulging in zinaa (unlawful sexual conduct), hence they are described as not being musaafihaat, which means promiscuous women who do not refuse anyone who wants to commit immoral acts with them."

Now compare it to this ahadith:
 
I said to Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام: In Kufa there is a woman with us who is known for promiscuity.  Is it allowed to marry her in mut`a?  He said: So he said: Did she raise a standard?  I said: No, had she raised a standard the Sultan would have arrested her.  He said: Yes, marry her in mut`a.

Why did you ignore it ?

Also this

 26441 ] 5 ـ أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى في ( نوادره ) : عن ابن أبي عمير ، عن هشام بن الحكم ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) في المتعة قال : ما يفعلها عندنا إلا الفواجر .



5 – Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa in his Nawadir from Ibn Abi `Umayr from Hisham b. al-Hakam from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام regarding mut`a: None does it amongst us but the dissolute women (al-fawajir).


 [ 26437 ] 1 ـ محمد بن الحسن بإسناده عن محمد بن أحمد بن يحيى ، عن أحمد بن محمد ، عن علي بن حديد ، عن جميل ، عن زرارة قال : سأله عمار وأنا عنده عن الرجل يتزوج الفاجرة متعة ؟ قال : لا بأس ، وإن كان التزويج الآخر فليحصن بابه .



1 – Muhammad b. al-Hasan by his isnad from Muhammad b. Ahmad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from `Ali b. Hadid from Jamil from Zurara.  He said: `Ammar asked him, and I was with him, about the man who marries the dissolute woman (al-fajira) in mut`a.  He said: There is no harm, and if it is the other marriage, then he is to fortify his door.

[Rationalist]

One of the fundamental reasons for Muslims getting married is desire/lust.

I would actually class Mut`ah as being from the "Akhdaan" or secret lovers category, I do this based on my observation.

It is sufficient for this verse to mention Ihsan (fortification) to cancel out the temporary marriage argument.

On shi'achat they attack Umar day and night for opposing Muta. However, I get suspended on shiachat two times. One  for accusing someone for saving money for Muta, and the second time for telling the 12ers they do muta with each other and share their experiences about it benefits.

Now if Muta was a chaste form of marriage why would I get suspended for accusing someone of thinking about it? If a 12er told me you are saving money for dowry that's why you are careful with money, would I get offended ?
If a 12er says  the Sunni brothers and sisters marry each other and they also share their experience of how marriage is beneficial. Are these points offensive to Sunnis? No. However, if I replace the term Nikah with Muta an Nisa the 12ers find it offensive.

Also this video below. So if someone accuses an Imam's wife of previously doing muta its offensive to 12ers. However, I can point of a historical fact that most of Prophet's (pbuh) wives were previously married and that's not offensive at all.

[Muslim]

All Muslims believe that Mutah was an established practice by the Prophet (saw). Historically, it was Caliph Umar who forbade the practice -
"Book 007, Number 2801:
Abu Nadra reported: Ibn'Abbas commanded the performance of Mut'a putting lhram for 'Umra during the months of Dhu'I-Hijja and after completing it. then putting on Ibrim for Hajj), but Ibn Zubair forbade to do it. I made a mention of it to Jabir b. Abdullih and he said: It is through me that this hadith has been circulated. We entered into the state of Ihram as Tamattu' with the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). When 'Umar was Installed as Caliph, he said: Verily Allah made permissible for His Messenger (may peace be upon him) whatever He liked and as He liked. And (every command) of the Holy Qur'an has been revealed for every occasion. So accomplish Hajj and Umra for Allah as Allah has commanded you; and confirm by (proper conditions) the marriage of those women (with whom you have performed Mut'a). And any person would come to me with a marriage of appointed duration (Mut'a), I would stone him (to death). Qatada narrated this hadith with the same chain of transmitters saying: (That 'Umar also said): Separate your Hajj from 'Umra, for that is the most complete Hajj, and complete your Umra." [Sahih Muslim, Book 7, Number 2801 and 2814]

Source: Sahih Muslim Online http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/muslim/007-smt.php


As for the hadith you cited, it's from the book "Minhaj al-Waqifa" which is a book from the sect of Shiism that believes in 7 Imams. This website only deals with Twelver Shiism and their books and beliefs. Your argument is not valid because it comes from a book (al-Wafiqa) that is derived from a sect of Shiism that is nearly dead. Please stick to credible sources.

Finally, your assertion that mutah is not allowed solely for sexual pleasure is incorrect. In Islam, we already have the established principle of relationships solely for sexual pleasure. Two examples.

1) "Slave-women" i.e. women who were captured during wartime. The Qu'ran refers to them as "those who your right hand possesses". A fairly obvious verse that they are for sexual pleasure is the following:
“No woman are permitted to you [the Prophet] in the future, nor is it allowed for you to change your wives for other women, even if there beauty may stun you, except for those whom your right hand possess”.
Al-Qur’an, Surah 33, Ayah 52

By the way, are you aware of the the reason why the verse 4:24 was even revealed? Take a read here:
http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=684&Itemid=59

"Imam Ahmad recorded that Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri said, "We captured some women from the area of Awtas who were already married, and we disliked having sexual relations with them because they already had husbands. So, we asked the Prophet about this matter, and this Ayah was revealed. Consequently, we had sexual relations with these women"

See here? The reason why they initially wanted to marry these women was for sexual pleasure only. They were afraid it was haram because they were already married (to non-Muslim men). This verse was revealed and told them it was okay to have sexual relations with them - not real marriage.

2)The concept of misyar. Qaradawi himself admits that most people who did are already married. He suggests it is a lawful method of fulfilling one's sexual desires without having to fulfill all of the responsibilities a man has towards the woman (i.e. nafaqah). Like Mutah, some have also compared it to prostitution. Why? Because anything in Islam can be abused.

Mutah was permitted by the Prophet and it does have an Islamic basis. Anything can be abused (like misyar).

Mutah is permissible.

[Rationalist]

Source: Sahih Muslim Online http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/muslim/007-smt.php

Yes there were some companions which disagreed but Imam Ali's (as) was not among them.

Please stick to credible sources.

Bring the credible sources. In your entire reply you did not bring on ahadith to prove that Muta cannot be based on lust.

Finally, your assertion that mutah is not allowed solely for sexual pleasure is incorrect. In Islam, we already have the established principle of relationships solely for sexual pleasure. Two examples.

1) "Slave-women" i.e. women who were captured during wartime. The Qu'ran refers to them as "those who your right hand possesses". A fairly obvious verse that they are for sexual pleasure is the following:
“No woman are permitted to you [the Prophet] in the future, nor is it allowed for you to change your wives for other women, even if there beauty may stun you, except for those whom your right hand possess”.
Al-Qur’an, Surah 33, Ayah 52

Read this part of the Quran.
even if there beauty may stun you
You just contradicted yourself.


On top of that right hand posses is a form of ownership. Its not a rental like muta.

By the way, are you aware of the the reason why the verse 4:24 was even revealed? Take a read here:
http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=684&Itemid=59

"Imam Ahmad recorded that Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri said, "We captured some women from the area of Awtas who were already married, and we disliked having sexual relations with them because they already had husbands. So, we asked the Prophet about this matter, and this Ayah was revealed. Consequently, we had sexual relations with these women"

See here? The reason why they initially wanted to marry these women was for sexual pleasure only. They were afraid it was haram because they were already married (to non-Muslim men). This verse was revealed and told them it was okay to have sexual relations with them - not real marriage.

With women who already had husbands ? Are you feeling okay? You did a nice job cutting and paste without pasting the prohibition against it.
(Thus has Allah ordained for you) means, this prohibition was ordained for you by Allah. Therefore, adhere to Allah's Book, do not transgress His set limits, and adhere to His legislation and decrees.

2)The concept of misyar. Qaradawi himself admits that most people who did are already married. He suggests it is a lawful method of fulfilling one's sexual desires without having to fulfill all of the responsibilities a man has towards the woman (i.e. nafaqah). Like Mutah, some have also compared it to prostitution. Why? Because anything in Islam can be abused.

I don't agree with Misyar.

Mutah was permitted by the Prophet and it does have an Islamic basis. Anything can be abused (like misyar).

Mutah is permissible.

According to some companions such as Ibn Abbas, Jabir al Ansar, Abdullah ibn Masood, but not Imam Ali (as).

[Hani]

@Muslim,


First of all you seem like a liar, why'd you place "Sunni" as your religion?

All Muslims believe that Mutah was an established practice by the Prophet (saw). Historically, it was Caliph Umar who forbade the practice -

Even though in an authentic narration by `Umar he himself says that the Prophet (saw) was the one who forbade it?


Seems like your historical reading is faulty.

We entered into the state of Ihram as Tamattu' with the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him).

^ This part of the Hadith refers to the Mut`ah of Hajj, not women.

2)The concept of misyar. Qaradawi himself admits that most people who did are already married. He suggests it is a lawful method of fulfilling one's sexual desires without having to fulfill all of the responsibilities a man has towards the woman (i.e. nafaqah). Like Mutah, some have also compared it to prostitution. Why? Because anything in Islam can be abused.

Except that Misyar is nothing like Mut`ah. Misyar is the condition where a man has a wife in one town and another wife in another town so the man makes "Sayr" or travels walking from the house of his first wife to the next town where his second wife lives.

[labelingtheory]

Lol misyar is worse than mutah. Mutah was allowed by the Prophet and is a Sunnah. Sunni scholars allow men to use misyar to marry women and them divorce them later. And you guys cry about Taqqiyah? Sad. With Mutah both parties know what they are getting into, in misyar you can fool a woman to marry you for a number of years until you are done with her.

And so what if you disagree with it? There are tons of sunnis that practice it today.

[Bolani Muslim]

Shia scholars say misyar is halal. Plus unlike mutah misyar won't lead to STDs and prostituton since it's permanent.

[labelingtheory]

As another brother mentioned, hanafis and shafis are allowed to marry with the intention of divorce.
Misyar allows you to marry and divorce anyone you want, its not permanent at all.

Misyar is not sunnah of the prophet, what kind of sunni are you if you don't even follow the sunnah? The prophet allowed Mutah. That is 100% fact. It is also fact that it was Umar who banned Mutah. Why don't you read your own sahih books that you claim are so perfect?

Your arguments are weak.

[Muslim]

Bismillah

Salaam brothers. Thank you for your responses.

I'll address your points separately.

To brother Hani:

First of all you seem like a liar, why'd you place "Sunni" as your religion?


Because Sunni refers to someone who follows the Sunnah of the Prophet. No matter what your madhab, all of us claim to be following the Sunnah of the Prophet. You may not think I am a true Sunni. That is your prerogative and I respect that, but you do not have ownership over this term.

However, if it does offend you that much, I will change it.


Even though in an authentic narration by `Umar he himself says that the Prophet (saw) was the one who forbade it?


Why do you have contradictory hadith about this? According to the works of Fakhr al-Dan al-Razi, the top Shafii scholar who wrote over a 100 books, Ali said it was Umar who forbade mutah. Ali said "Had Umar not banned Mut’ah then the only person to fornicate would be a perverted person"
It's located in this book:  http://tinyurl.com/mvulbq9

In another part of the same Tafseer al-Kabeer, al-Razi also brings about a quote from Umar who says "Two Mutahs existed during Rasullalah's time and now I prohibit them"  Source: http://tinyurl.com/ncbru87

He prohibited both mutah of marriage and mutah of Hajj. I'm not sure why even forbade the mutah of Hajj. Was that also a bidah?


Except that Misyar is nothing like Mut`ah. Misyar is the condition where a man has a wife in one town and another wife in another town so the man makes "Sayr" or travels walking from the house of his first wife to the next town where his second wife lives.

Misyar and mutah are almost synonymous. According to Hanafi and Shafii scholars, men are allowed to engage in misyar marriages with the explicit intent of divorcing the woman after some unspecified duration of the marriage. Even the late Mufti, Sheikh Ibn Baaz gave a fatwa specifically allowing this act: http://oi50.tinypic.com/2ez0ier.jpg

Misyar allows for men to travel to another place (sayr) and find women, offer them marriage with the intention of divorcing them and not having to provide them with nafaqah. At least with mutah, the woman and the man agree when to end the marriage. In misyar, the poor woman is in a lose-lose relationship. You may not like it, but it's permissible for many Sunnis to engage in this behavior. Misyar or mutah can both be abused. But you cannot compare them to prostitution. The woman cannot be engaged in multiple relationships and there's a waiting period, iddah, after the marriage is finished (at least for mutah). 

[Muslim]

To brother Rationalist:

I may have addressed some of your points to Hani.

Yes there were some companions which disagreed but Imam Ali's (as) was not among them.

Please see the tradition I listed above in Fakhr al-Razi's book about Ali stating Umar incorrectly forbidding mutah.

even if there beauty may stun you

You've missed the point. It's stating that you cannot simply let your wife go and go with other women for their beauty. Mutah is different - in that it does not necessitate leaving one's wife to engage in Mutah. Similar to misyar, it can be performed simultaneously with mutah.

On top of that right hand posses is a form of ownership. Its not a rental like muta.

This is complete semantics here. Those who your right hand possesses are solely for sexual purposes only. That's what the traditions I posted clearly suggested (see above where the companions wanted to have sexual relations with them, but were afraid due to them being previously married). Those who your right hand possesses can be rental too. Is there anything stopping you from taking one "right hand" woman for one night? Then another "right hand" woman in a different night? Not really. Same for misyar (see Ibn Baaz's fatwa).

With women who already had husbands ? Are you feeling okay? You did a nice job cutting and paste without pasting the prohibition against it.

You've missed the point entirely again. The prohibition is in reference to marrying woman who are already married except those who your right hand possesses - i.e. women capturing during war. That's why those sahabah went ahead and had relations with those women despite being married.

I don't agree with Misyar.

I acknowledge your sentiment, but this is an acceptable practice in the Sunni madhabs.


Please let me know if there is anything else would you like me to elaborate.

[Husayn]

Because Sunni refers to someone who follows the Sunnah of the Prophet. No matter what your madhab, all of us claim to be following the Sunnah of the Prophet. You may not think I am a true Sunni. That is your prerogative and I respect that, but you do not have ownership over this term.

However, if it does offend you that much, I will change it.

Not offended - just amused.

Tell me - why not pick "Shia"? Isn't this a badge of pride? Isn't this what your 12 Imams called you?

Please find me a narration where your Imams ever called you "Ahlul Sunnah" or "Sunnis".

-----

Also, regarding Mut'a:

Muslim - can you answer me this question:

Would you like your daughter, or your sister, or your mother or your cousin to do Mut'a?

If one of them came up to you and said, "Hey! I've got great news! I did mut'a with this really nice religious boy! He gave me a cigarette lighter as Mahr!!!" - how would you feel?

Be honest.

[Rationalist]

And so what if you disagree with it? There are tons of sunnis that practice it today.

In your fiqh a qazi or a permit in not required to do muta or marriage. Yet, Iran makes these conditions biding. So there will be people who will bend the laws of fiqh.

[Rationalist]

Why do you have contradictory hadith about this? According to the works of Fakhr al-Dan al-Razi, the top Shafii scholar who wrote over a 100 books, Ali said it was Umar who forbade mutah. Ali said "Had Umar not banned Mut’ah then the only person to fornicate would be a perverted person"
It's located in this book:  http://tinyurl.com/mvulbq9

Did you even look at the chains of the report. The chain in that report is majhul.

[Rationalist]

Please see the tradition I listed above in Fakhr al-Razi's book about Ali stating Umar incorrectly forbidding mutah.

The report is majhul.

This is complete semantics here. Those who your right hand possesses are solely for sexual purposes only. That's what the traditions I posted clearly suggested (see above where the companions wanted to have sexual relations with them, but were afraid due to them being previously married).

No actually the Quran forbids that condition. Refer to the Quran 4:24 says you cannot marry someone for the sake of lust.

Those who your right hand possesses can be rental too. Is there anything stopping you from taking one "right hand" woman for one night? Then another "right hand" woman in a different night?

Not according to the Quran cause it forbids to go to women for the sake of lust.

You've missed the point entirely again. The prohibition is in reference to marrying woman who are already married except those who your right hand possesses - i.e. women capturing during war. That's why those sahabah went ahead and had relations with those women despite being married.

That's why the Tasfir says the verse was revealing against them. I wonder why you didn't post the entire tafsir. You only posted the part where its agrees with your aqeeda which again is wrong.

I acknowledge your sentiment, but this is an acceptable practice in the Sunni madhabs.

Well in your schools there is an acceptance of 12ers who consider the Quran to be incomplete. There is no fatwa to declare such people as kaffirs.